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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Jan 2013 : 16:17:45
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I was curious about people's use of technology and magical-based Technology in the realms. Like inventions from our times or even sci-fi stories which you have imported to the realms, once adapting to the Realms physics. Magtech is used more in Eberron then Forgotten Realms, but it is potentially able to develop in the FR.
In fact, magic seems to duplicate much of the technology of our world and Sci-fi, which might explain why their technology is not as developed as our (Like how the first Hybrid Cars were invented in the 1970's but were not used by the U.S. until the late Nineties and the Naughts).
But I am just curious how you have pushed the envelopes as well as how you explaining in game.
Any stories or comments?
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Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36821 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2013 : 16:32:06
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I'm not a fan of importing tech into the Realms, except in very limited, one-off cases (like my idea of bringing in a 40k Space Marine, except his power armor won't function long, and he's only got limited ammo for his bolter).
If I was going to do some sort of magitech, I'd likely look to the mechanika of the Iron Kingdoms for inspiration. It's small bits of magic combined mechanically to form magical items. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2013 : 16:46:39
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I used it to a limited degree when I ran Greyhawk, and the original iterations of D&D did assume there was 'tech' somewhere, usually hidden in ancient (Blackmoor) ruins or 'crash sites' (Expedition to the Barrier Peaks).
I was never in-love with that part of the game, and when I started running FR I was glad The Realms had none of that (it even has rules against it). It may actually be the first thing that made me start to become a fan (I wasn't a fan when I ran it the first time, believe it or not).
Now I am using PF rules to run an FR campaign (because I had to replace all my rulebooks, and I don't care for 4e, so I didn't have much of a choice). This means I also have to learn a bit about Golarion, since the rules are written with that setting in-mind (otherwise, certain aspects of those rules wouldn't make sense).
Now, it would probably seem far easier to just run Golarion at this point (and believe you me, I've been mulling that decision over for more then a year now). Problem is, Golarion has a LOT of that flavor - too much to suit me. Its in two completely different areas - one low tech, and one super-tech (lasers and robots... *ugh*). This was probably one of the major factors in my decision to stick with FR - I can deal with the low-tech (and will probably use it, because it doesn't conflict with FR's tech), but that high-tech stuff just makes my skin crawl (in a fantsy RPG setting. In novels and other media I do not have such qualms).
In fact, if I had to be completely honest, I would probably greatly enjoy playing in such games/worlds. I just don't want to run them.
I am also a fan of the Warhammer and Warmachine (Iron Kingdoms) settings, which both have tech. WH is more like steampunk, and WM is more magi-tech, and I have no problem with either. In fact, I am really starting to warm-up to steam-tech, so I may throw a tad bit of Girl Genius into my future sessions... who knows? 
"Sharks with frickin' lasers on their heads" I'll leave for Austin Powers, thank you very much. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Jan 2013 16:50:01 |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2013 : 16:57:18
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| More like "Dragons with Frickin Ion Cannons on their Heads". |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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BlackAce
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2013 : 17:04:44
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| Only Tech I'd allow in my games would probably be of the 17th/18th century clockwork variety. That doesn't mean you can't throw sci-fi elements in. Dr who fans may recall and episode called the 'Girl in the Fireplace'. That's a great example of what I mean. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2013 : 17:55:19
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Iron Kingdoms is a great way to go with this sort of theme. Not perfect, but still exceptional.
Personally, however, I like to keep my magic and technology far apart from each other. No modern handguns ever sneak their way into my campaigning. I'm even apprehensive about playing through things like S3: Expedition to the Barrier Peaks because I know that even though these modules are just meant to be a bit of tongue-in-cheek fun my players would nonetheless end up methodically scavenging and abusing every single scrap of tech they could get their overefficiently analytical hands onto.
I feel that Victorian-era clockworks and one-of-a-kind gnomish machinery fit well enough in the Realms, stuff which is ridiculously difficult to fabricate and maintain and operate, plus it's often horribly fragile or explosive or something, easily wrecked forever. Moving onto other worlds and planes, all sorts of more advanced technologies can be found - places like Sigil are basically built on a pile of mish-mash techno garbage from a thousand worlds - but they don't always work when moved elsewhere. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 05 Jan 2013 18:00:54 |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2013 : 18:29:38
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| I compare my Realms (tech-wise) to either late Middle Ages or early Renaissance from our own planet. |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2013 : 18:59:05
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| What about building the equalivalent of Modern Tech out of Realms Magic? Like making Golem based Robot servants? |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2013 : 19:20:59
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I use several flintlock, cap and ball style fire arms into my realms using firearms rules from Pathfinder's Ultimate Combat(early firearms only) and the d20 World of Warcraft Roleplaying Game, as well as basic canons.
As for magitek, I generally limit that to a few specific cultures; specifically I import the draenei from warcraft, the asura from guild wars, and the dwemer from elder scrolls. I stress the fact that it is still magic, just gone about in a different way.
I am also a big advocate of using magic to simulate modern technology for 'mundane' purposes. Mostly irrigation and farming, but it's also a big part of plumbing and waste management, construction and demolition, storage, food preservation, and what have you. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Edited by - Chosen of Asmodeus on 05 Jan 2013 19:21:51 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2013 : 20:54:46
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Since I am using PF rules there will be firearms (a'la WoW), even though I don't care for it, my players want it (who are my sons).
And since I am finally crossing that line, I 'may' go as far as trains and riverboats (Riverworld was one of my favorite series), but then it wouldn't quite be the Realms anymore, would it?
And since I just brought that up, and 5e is 'just around the corner', they may want to consider what kind of tech-level kids are expecting these days. That could be why Paizo went that route. I haven't suddenly become a fan of that flavor, but it is something worth considering.
EDIT: On the other hand, not everyone 'over there' likes that. Being different from them could be worth something as well. Just tossing things out there right now.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Jan 2013 20:56:42 |
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BlackAce
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2013 : 21:54:42
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| It's worth noting the first uses of firearms (ie cannon) in medieval europe is around the beginning of the 14th century. To put that in context; the cannon predates plate mail by about 100 years. |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2013 : 23:42:38
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Only interloper or spelljamming races like Lantanese, Shou, Imaskari and Mulan cultures posses fairly rare artifects of Magi-Tech on my Toril. I especially like to give Mulan, Imaskari, Moon Elves and Eladrin a 'space opera'-like feel. Some are actively improving on their devices, but most lack a means to build new magitech as they aquired them mostly through interplanar trade.
Toril is usually far less magical, but pragmatic magic use can be found when searched for. Folk find magic devices too complicated, so wand and wondrous item use isn't very common. Those few items with stable effects are likely to be widely known and used by many common folk in an area.
Renaissance level weaponry and devices are numerous and widespread, except for guns who are limited by a slow production rate and distribution area. Some cannons are in use in some ports and ships, but practisioners of the Art are usually preferred over the unreliable and slow firepower of smokepowder artillery. Wooden siege weapons are impressive works of engineering that usually outperform the cannons as well.
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My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
Edited by - Bladewind on 05 Jan 2013 23:46:22 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2013 : 23:52:19
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In what year did they invent Davey Jones' Spinning, repeating, triple-barreled canons?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2013 : 00:00:43
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| I think that was circa 2001, although it seems likely such devices might have been used in World War I or II. To my knowledge no such weaponry ever really existed back in the blackpowder cannon days. Nor the flame projectors at the front of his ship, unless you accept some of the theories about Greek Fire ships. |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31796 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2013 : 02:08:43
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I've an established basis for the beginnings of steamtech which relies heavily on Ed's own take:-
quote:
... "steam engines (monstrous "rolling-beam" stationary types, akin to those found in Cornish tin mines and elsewhere AND tiny 'using a fire one builds in a bowl' sorts) are in common use all over Lantan, but remain "dangerous" curiosities elsewhere (although many Faerunians know about harnessing the hot gas from a fire collected through a hood-and-pipe apparatus). As several posters have mentioned, Gond rules such pursuits, and copious prayers to him will be a part of any steam-work. What the Realms DOESN'T yet have is reliable steam propulsion (locomotives, that is -- although miners'-sweatwork and donkey- or mule-drawn mining railways, with little 'tip' ore cars, ARE used here and there, and are known to all dwarves and gnomes). Distillation and other simple steam-related procedures are widely known if not widely understood."
Of course, I've had one-shot and alternate Realms campaigns that have taken very different interpretations of tech in the setting. And, I also have a kind of 'arcanatech' which basically establishes the reality of the warforged-like constructs I've written into my Realms. As well as the Raumanthar constructs and such. We also have the canon Gondsman, from Faiths and Pantheons, which provides another basis for tech in the Realms, and it's another possibility I have expanded upon.
But these instances all largely sit as curiosities, and the results of idle experimentation. There is no wide dispersal of tech or groups incorporating such developments in my Realms. |
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2013 : 05:01:11
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| It should not be too tech heavy, more magic than tech. |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2013 : 09:12:27
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| Ha, I'd never really thought of Lantan as a Realms equivalent of, say, England during the "second" Industrial Revolution ... things like Newcomen steam engine/pumps were horribly inefficient, canals were used to move mountains of coal and iron, the abundance of ironwork foundries make the skies red at night and black in the day. My kinda place this Lantan, gotta replace those silly gnomes with nicely efficient orcs and rename it Mordor. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2013 : 17:50:11
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| I love magic technology and we have a lot of 3rd party products that deal with it. That happens mostly in planar campaigns, where's a sect called the Teknists based on Clarke's laws. Toril is a backwater world, but there are exceptions, like artifacts from Imaskar, Raumathar, Halruaa, Netheril, or people like Trobriand, Flamefist, ibn Arvalas ... Steam is only important in places that are near quasielemental sources, otherwise magic is superior. |
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Ateth Istarlin
Seeker
United Kingdom
80 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2013 : 19:20:59
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| As I recall, the supplement "Old Empires" stated that Mulhorand had steam-powered tech. used in agriculture, etc. |
The more I read about 4FR, the more depressed I am.
Politician - An elected official who tries to be all things to all people, while always looking out for his/her own interests first. |
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BlackAce
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2013 : 20:49:17
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I did have an idea for an enchanted, brass bound rune-slate, that with a special stylus, could store multiple pages of writing. Each page could be recalled by touching the stylus to the correct rune that would magically etch itself on the brass frame every time the writer filled a page.
Kinda had it mind for places where vellum and paper would deteriorate. Never got a chance to use it in game though. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31796 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2013 : 00:40:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Ateth Istarlin
As I recall, the supplement "Old Empires" stated that Mulhorand had steam-powered tech. used in agriculture, etc.
It's centred around the creation of the pressure engine and the employment of arcane items like stones of everburning. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36821 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2013 : 03:39:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Foxhelm
What about building the equalivalent of Modern Tech out of Realms Magic? Like making Golem based Robot servants?
Hell's Gate, by David Weber and Linda Evans, has something interesting like that...
The series (which sadly, is still awaiting a third book) focuses on two different parallel Earths. Both of these Earths have discovered portals to other parallel Earths, which have always been free of human life. And then both societies encounter one another, on an Earth that's pretty far from either one's homeworld... And we don't find out who shot first, but someone did, and the fecal matter hits the ventilation mechanism.
One of the Earths has tech that's roughly similar to nineteenth century RW Earth -- reliable firearms, steam engines, trains. And pretty much everyone has some psychic ability, and these abilities are used to allow for things like instantaneous communications and a worldwide communications network (on their homeworld).
The other Earth has pretty standard fantasy tech -- armor, swords, dragons and griffons that they've engineered... But they have also made magical versions of artillery and computers. They've got magic-propelled ships, and they use dragons the same way we use aircraft -- including in ground attack roles or for troop transport.
It's obviously not Realms-specific, but since the Realms has both magic and psionics, both of those Earths can be used to inspire Realms versions of modern tech. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11882 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2013 : 17:26:36
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The extent I've actually used "tech" in the realms has been limited to gunpowder and firearms. When I was a lot younger, I did allow a pair of revolvers to come over from the mask of the red death campaign (modified to use smokepowder). However, I wouldn't have a problem with steamtech and mills (water or wind) being used for gear driven technology for things that repeat over and over. I'm thinking things like a hammer/spike that continually pounds, a saw that turns, fans that spin to circulate air, a wheel to turn a conveyor belt, a loom to make fabric, a spinning contraption to mix food, wash clothes, etc.. and similar repetitive/stuck in one place types of contraptions. I could also see steam pipes that are used to move water elsewhere (say a tall water tower, where it empties and cools back into water and has aqueducts from it to deliver water elsewhere).
In a place like Lantan, I wouldn't have a problem with basic batteries and electricity being developed. However, nothing like the electronic circuit should be developed. They just may have learned to to use electricity to make objects spin for instance, and in turn they can apply such to the clockwork type things already discussed. In doing so, they can make slightly more portable versions of things. Also, nothing even remotely like alternating current should be discovered, such that any use of electricity involves huge power cables, etc... There would also be the blatant electrical attack perspective of electricity as well (i.e. one might be able to make the equivalent of a nasty cattle prod... but it would be wired to a huge battery... one might be able to make the equivalent of an electric fence or an electrically trapped door). However, the generation of this electricity might come from unusual resources for us. Perhaps they have tanks of electric eels or other similar captured creatures/monsters. Nothing like light bulbs, telegraphs, etc.... should be possible, as the level of "wire network creation" required versus the amount of creatures that would destroy said construction are anathema to one another. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11882 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2013 : 17:42:33
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DISCLAIMER FOR THE FOLLOWING: I'm specifically mentioning these ideas (and the previous section) only for the "new 5E realms". The third edition and prior realms are on the "cusp" of beginning to achieve this kind of ability to work together. Then the spellplague happened and the world became "points of light" and much was lost. If 5th edition is say 50-100 years later, perhaps a lot of the unity is being recovered again such that technology can advance.
note on all of the above, I see most of these things in a non-mobile factory like setting. There may be a restaurant by the river that uses some basic pulleys to have "river driven fans", but people won't have such in their homes. There may be a building using steam power to clean raw cotton/wool, weave such on a loom into cloth, and then there be essentially a sweatshop full of people with really basic sewing machines. They may even have sewing machines that can work with leather, for saddle and armor making, etc... This would be a major industry in a large city however, and might even make the big differences between city X and city Y(i.e. Cotton in flow in such a "sewing city" make it different than a city whose technology plants work around making basic metal implements like nails). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2013 : 17:47:45
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Was reading through the stuff in the back of the (PF) Inner Sea Guide again last night.
In order to 'investigate' (figure-out how to use a found item) the Super-Science of Numeria one should use a spellcraft check, just as if they were investigating a new magical device. 
Really? And thats why I don't like mixing (high) tech and magic in my games. Obviously magic-users would be better at tech then everyone else, which is usually the exact opposite of how I see it portrayed (that science and magic don't mix well). I personally prefer magic and tech interfere with each other, as it was in the excellent (and oft-overlooked) video game Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura. I normally don't like the blend done in worlds like Iron Kingdoms (although in that setting, I am fine with it). I call that magi-tech, but I recall someone on this site using a term I had never heard before (and I liked better) - anyone? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Jan 2013 17:49:18 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36821 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2013 : 19:23:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Was reading through the stuff in the back of the (PF) Inner Sea Guide again last night.
In order to 'investigate' (figure-out how to use a found item) the Super-Science of Numeria one should use a spellcraft check, just as if they were investigating a new magical device.
Really? And thats why I don't like mixing (high) tech and magic in my games. Obviously magic-users would be better at tech then everyone else, which is usually the exact opposite of how I see it portrayed (that science and magic don't mix well). I personally prefer magic and tech interfere with each other, as it was in the excellent (and oft-overlooked) video game Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura. I normally don't like the blend done in worlds like Iron Kingdoms (although in that setting, I am fine with it). I call that magi-tech, but I recall someone on this site using a term I had never heard before (and I liked better) - anyone?
Well, would you prefer using a new skill, limited to that one function? Spellcraft makes a certain amount of sense, since with both magic and Numerian tech -- which often mimics magic -- one is trying to manipulate unseen forces.
The magitech in the Iron Kingdoms is called mechanika. It's a generic term, used for pretty much everything from a +1 sword to the overly large (and difficult to take down!) Colossals (very big versions of the steam-powered robots used in combat and labor). |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2013 : 00:41:45
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Well, I figure in fantasy we have three different types - Super Science, Steampunk, and 'magi-tech'. Super Science I prefer just with the scify genre, but the other two I like in vbery specific settings, not in fantasy in-general. Since I like to run fairly generic worlds for D&D, I don't run worlds I like otherwise (like I said, Iron Kingdoms).
In novels anything goes, and so long as the writing is good Ill enjoy it. I guess I am just a 'traditionalist' when it comes to RPGs.
As for what skill to use, thats the whole problem . Spellcraft makes sense only because there is nothing else close, and to burn a skill for something you may never encounter is just stupid (if there were a 'super-science skill'). I suppose if you planned on using this flavor a lot in your games, you probably should create a specific skill.
Mechanika isn't the word I was looking for.. maybe it was technomancy (or something similar?) Anyhow, if I do decide to add a little clockwork/steampunk to my Realms, I will probably borrow 'bodging' from Iron kingdoms - those rules are pretty cool. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2013 : 01:10:59
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quote:
Markustay ... to burn a skill for something you may never encounter is just stupid ...
You may be right. Still, sometimes a skill (like, say, Disarm Nuclear Warhead) is too critical too ignore, no matter how rarely encountered. |
[/Ayrik] |
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BlackAce
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2013 : 01:51:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I normally don't like the blend done in worlds like Iron Kingdoms (although in that setting, I am fine with it). I call that magi-tech, but I recall someone on this site using a term I had never heard before (and I liked better) - anyone?
Err, Technomancy? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2013 : 02:17:51
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Yeah, thats probably it. I think when magic mimics tech it should be 'magitech', but when science is used to bolster sorcery (like an electrical accumulator to power a magical device) then it falls under the category 'technomancy'.
In one case its magic mimicking tech, and in the other, Mages just use it as a power source or whatever (but sill having a more magical flavor). For instance, flesh golems are an example of technomancy. Advanced clockwork golems (effigies) would be an example of magitech (normal ones would just be steampunk). Its kinda weird, because its such a fine line in some cases. I think of the Netherese Mythalars as a type of magitech, and yet I don't think of the similar working Faerzress/Drow devices (psuedo-magical) as anything but purely magical. I think a lot of it might have to do with presentation.
I guess listening to me, people might feel the way I feel when someone says "I don't like vanilla ice cream, but I like chocolate chip ice cream". Underneath its still vanilla ice cream - its all about what you add to it that makes it different. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Jan 2013 03:43:28 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2013 : 02:26:37
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I think these fantastic fictional things are too blurred to draw any kind of line. Nanotechnology is basically interchangeable with magic, as far as we can tell it doesn't really exist (not in the sci-fi context, anyhow), it may or may not ever exist, and all manner of wondrous possibilities are attributed to it.
Magic is described countless ways by countless sources, but a fairly common explanatory theme is for the magic to work on "natural" principles ... that is, there are physical components and relationships in magic which overlap those in science, and at the rudimentary and ultimate levels it can be difficult to distinguish between them. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Your use of Tech/Magtech in the Realms
