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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11875 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Jan 2013 : 23:12:22
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Hmmmm, something just occurred to me after a question being asked about liches and polymorph any object. So, someone creates a simulacrum. They then use polymorph any object to change the creature from the construct type made of snow into the type corresponding to the flesh sample in the simulacrum (and looking exactly like what the simulacrum looks like).... example a simulacrum made from a human male is turned into a human male looking exactly like he did as a simulacrum. Then the simulacrum/human mates with a female and gets her pregnant. The child is born and theoretically, it would possess the DNA of the "simulacrum".
Take this a step further, what if the simulacrum were made from someone of noble birth?
I understand that if you had the DNA you could also make a clone, but doing this with a simulacrum doesn't require the original being to be dead. I'm thinking it could open up questions of royal succession, or at least cause some internal bickering within a royal family. Granted, I guess you could cause such bickering with an illusion as well..
I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but somehow this seems like it could be a basis in a story....
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11875 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2013 : 23:32:55
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oh, and one thing to make this different from the clone spell.... you can use a simple hair from a hairbrush or a finger nail clipping. Clone requires a 1 cubic inch piece of flesh which is about the equivalent of an entire finger... a lot harder to get ahold of.
So, lets take an example of the king going out. He gets ambushed and disintegrated. Meanwhile, the queen that he recently married in desperation hires a wizard to create a simulacrum using his hair from his hairbrush, polymorphs it into human form, casts some ultra-fertility spell on her and the simulacrum-king. She then gives birth to a male heir (which has rank over the previous all female children from the previous wife). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2013 : 14:23:06
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But would the fellow nobles accept this "heir"? Maybe a piece of the king was left, then that would be more plausible, but this also raises the question of the wizard who created the simulacrum, whats to stop him from using the impostor to seize power and such?
This could work out to be an interesting plot... |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11875 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2013 : 14:45:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
But would the fellow nobles accept this "heir"? Maybe a piece of the king was left, then that would be more plausible, but this also raises the question of the wizard who created the simulacrum, whats to stop him from using the impostor to seize power and such?
This could work out to be an interesting plot...
my thoughts are the queen announces the child as something which she had "just discovered" and "it's a miracle blessing of the gods that her husband bestowed this one last gift upon her before she died". Her price could be that she marry the wizard and they rule until the child comes of age as regents. As to using the impostor to seize power, since the polymorph other crosses kingdoms (its going from "mineral" to "animal") it can't be permanent. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2013 : 14:53:09
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Well, considering FR (and most D&D worlds) haven't anyway of testing DNA, I think we're good. 
Seriously, if someone was presented as an heir, how would they prove it? A spell would indicate that he/she was NOT an offspring of the noble/royal personage.
I think - and I think the way Ed handled it (going by various things he's said over the years) - is that when you start 'stacking' magical effects like that, you don't always get what you expect. Would you even have a real person at the end of all that? Would they only have 'half a soul'? The RAW just doesn't cover stuff like that.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Jan 2013 14:53:49 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2013 : 18:06:22
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D&D's answer is basically that true clones cannot coexist; if they ever learn of each other then it's basically a fight to the death. Whereas simulucra are "simulated" people, not the genuine deal. I would rule that simulucra are sterile.
These fantasy clones are also a copy of the individual, identical to the original in every way, not a programmable doppleganger. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2013 : 04:52:27
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| Moreover if going by stacking spell upon spell unto the clone or simulacrum, some noble hired mage is going to find out why the heir is blindingly bright to my arcane sight spell... |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2013 : 05:00:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Seriously, if someone was presented as an heir, how would they prove it? A spell would indicate that he/she was NOT an offspring of the noble/royal personage.
That's why you bribe or blackmail the person casting the spell. Or plant your own wizard as the one to cast the spell. Or get your own wizard to run some interference magic to screw with the noble's wizard's results. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11875 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2013 : 16:00:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
D&D's answer is basically that true clones cannot coexist; if they ever learn of each other then it's basically a fight to the death. Whereas simulucra are "simulated" people, not the genuine deal. I would rule that simulucra are sterile.
These fantasy clones are also a copy of the individual, identical to the original in every way, not a programmable doppleganger.
I would buy that simulacra (as constructs) are sterile. However, whenever they change their type to humanoid(human), do they remain so? I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with this being a ruling mind you if they did remain sterile. However, it brings up other questions such as a dragon changing shape/type through magic, does it become sterile? Is sterility a factor only in the type/shape you're changing from (i.e. all constructs/undead changing shape remain sterile no matter what shape they polymorph to) OR would a human who was sterile remain sterile even after shape changing? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11875 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2013 : 16:08:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Well, considering FR (and most D&D worlds) haven't anyway of testing DNA, I think we're good.
Seriously, if someone was presented as an heir, how would they prove it? A spell would indicate that he/she was NOT an offspring of the noble/royal personage.
I think - and I think the way Ed handled it (going by various things he's said over the years) - is that when you start 'stacking' magical effects like that, you don't always get what you expect. Would you even have a real person at the end of all that? Would they only have 'half a soul'? The RAW just doesn't cover stuff like that.
I specifically chose the idea that the king was disintegrated to kind of go along with this "spell confirmation" idea. Most divinations I see as giving a cryptic response, whereas what spells I've seen that actually do this kind of comparison (I think there was one in 2E) require the person to have some kind of object personal to the person (such as a lock of hair). Given that the same hairbrush might provide the locks of hair for these spells, there might be some chance that the spells would still confirm the child as "his" offspring... or at least maybe a confusing result. Also, as Chosen of Asmodeus mentioned, there might be someone actively working to skew said results.
From my perspective, I'm throwing out this whole idea just from a "how would magic respond" perspective, so I'm more interested in the debate than what end results we come up with. So, for instance, what spells are out there in either 2E or 3/3.5E or pathfinder that would be ones people might use for confirmation or confirmation blocking/confusing the validity of the heir? I specify 2E only because I find those spells I can typically port over to 3E/3.5E with only slight mods for the most part. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2013 : 17:40:48
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On the lighter side, I was actually considering the fact that the clone/simulcrum could have been made from the person's hair.
Wizard: "I have determined that this person is...... a hair?" 
Crowd: "Yay! The King is dead, long live the King!"
Wizard:" Wait! I said 'hair', NOT heir!" {crowd ignores him and carries new king out on their shoulders}
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Jan 2013 17:41:03 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2013 : 22:57:09
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Reading the AD&D 2E simulacrum spell I notice that it is an illusion, and it basically just makes a mannequin. If you want it to be "alive" (appear to breath, look around, etc) then you'll need to also cast reincarnation, which I presume somehow calls or anchors a living spirit (from where?) to the simulacrum. If you then cast a properly-worded limited wish, the simulacrum can have 20%-50% of the original's personality and abilities (levels, etc), so I suppose a sufficiency high-level character can produce simulacra capable of casting polymorph from memory or scrolls.
It's just the DM's (or author's) call beyond that. There are no canon rules, so either accept what other people offer or invent your own solution. There are simulacra in numerous adventures/modules and even a few novels, varying wildly in their treatment.
A "perfect" simulacrum has only half the original's personality and abilities. It's up to the DM whether this means it's only a sort of shallow semi-functional "half person" or if it has a complete personality which draws the other half from another source.My house rule was that a nicely symbolic pound of flesh is a required component rather than, say, a single hair or skin cell or drop of blood, although regeneration magics can help here ... good luck obtaining such a component from a subject without being noticed. The DM needs to decide if simulacra can be made from only the caster or made from any creature, and whether to allow situations where a simulacrum has higher HD/levels/power than the caster.My inclination is to not add rules unless they are necessary. And they should only be necessary when preventing rampant abuse by PCs or to move a halted story along. It is, in the final analysis, a 7th level spell, it should be potent but not a game breaking exploit. In the Realms there's always piles of NPC mages who can detect, correct, or prevent magical exploitation by PC mages.The DM can always "one-shot" the magic, saying that a mage learns a "unique" variant of the spell which differs in minor details from the generic description. Better yet, augment this spell with some mysterious "unique" item or event which has limited charges/uses/conditions. Magic (and Mystra's influence) in the Realms is supposed to always be slightly mysterious, wondrous, fey, and unpredictable, regardless how concrete the PHB rules might be. If you are obsessed with maintaining absolute rules-details consistency then just remember that an NPC capable of casting 7th level limited wish can also slightly bend or redefine the rules.
Whether someone shapechanged by polymorph (or whatever) can produce offspring is a different question, with an equally arbitrary answer. D&D 3E lore suggests that the offspring of such unions often have (hidden) "bloodlines" from both parent races or are sometimes born as some kind of shifter race. Magic is supernatural, unconstrained by natural rules, and again, magic in the Realms is never absolutely predictable. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 08 Jan 2013 01:17:28 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11875 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2013 : 20:27:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Reading the AD&D 2E simulacrum spell I notice that it is an illusion, and it basically just makes a mannequin. If you want it to be "alive" (appear to breath, look around, etc) then you'll need to also cast reincarnation, which I presume somehow calls or anchors a living spirit (from where?) to the simulacrum. If you then cast a properly-worded limited wish, the simulacrum can have 20%-50% of the original's personality and abilities (levels, etc), so I suppose a sufficiency high-level character can produce simulacra capable of casting polymorph from memory or scrolls.
It's just the DM's (or author's) call beyond that. There are no canon rules, so either accept what other people offer or invent your own solution. There are simulacra in numerous adventures/modules and even a few novels, varying wildly in their treatment.
A "perfect" simulacrum has only half the original's personality and abilities. It's up to the DM whether this means it's only a sort of shallow semi-functional "half person" or if it has a complete personality which draws the other half from another source.My house rule was that a nicely symbolic pound of flesh is a required component rather than, say, a single hair or skin cell or drop of blood, although regeneration magics can help here ... good luck obtaining such a component from a subject without being noticed. The DM needs to decide if simulacra can be made from only the caster or made from any creature, and whether to allow situations where a simulacrum has higher HD/levels/power than the caster.My inclination is to not add rules unless they are necessary. And they should only be necessary when preventing rampant abuse by PCs or to move a halted story along. It is, in the final analysis, a 7th level spell, it should be potent but not a game breaking exploit. In the Realms there's always piles of NPC mages who can detect, correct, or prevent magical exploitation by PC mages.The DM can always "one-shot" the magic, saying that a mage learns a "unique" variant of the spell which differs in minor details from the generic description. Better yet, augment this spell with some mysterious "unique" item or event which has limited charges/uses/conditions. Magic (and Mystra's influence) in the Realms is supposed to always be slightly mysterious, wondrous, fey, and unpredictable, regardless how concrete the PHB rules might be. If you are obsessed with maintaining absolute rules-details consistency then just remember that an NPC capable of casting 7th level limited wish can also slightly bend or redefine the rules.
Whether someone shapechanged by polymorph (or whatever) can produce offspring is a different question, with an equally arbitrary answer. D&D 3E lore suggests that the offspring of such unions often have (hidden) "bloodlines" from both parent races or are sometimes born as some kind of shifter race. Magic is supernatural, unconstrained by natural rules, and again, magic in the Realms is never absolutely predictable.
I was never questioning whether a simulacrum could make someone pregnant (it can't, its only a construct). It was the idea of taking a simulacrum of a person and then making them human (via polymorph any object, which can apparently turn a pebble into a human with intelligence). Then, the question comes down, would such a being be fertile or sterile, and as is being discussed... just what kind of DNA might be passed.
Along similar veins, it can be noted that draconic beings that shapechange/polymorph still maintain their virility and they "carry over" the genetics of their dragon nature (thus half-dragons). I find it interesting that someone pointed out that the nature of magic might just produce something entirely unintended. That too could make for an interesting story. In other words, maybe the idea of the Queen and Wizard working together to make a new heir is put forth by the wizard and the Queen goes along (but the wizard isn't entirely sure WHAT will happen). That could prove interesting.... is there any template out there for a "half-construct". I know there's living constructs, but those don't even remotely look human. I guess since its a construct of snow perhaps a genasi MIGHT fit.
Hell, maybe the whole kingdom knows and they're going along with it because the "King" was the last of his line and in order for some prophecy to happen a child of his lineage must survive (and he'd died without providing any progeny). Meanwhile, unbeknownst to everyone the King's father had had a bastard on his step-sister/teacher/maid/cousin before any prophecy was revealed and the mother died without ever telling him she'd had his child. Somewhere in here is a story, and the more we talk the more options I see. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2013 : 02:29:52
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There is also a sentient illusion character in that horrible Pools of Twilight novel. Capable of casting Weird (a 9th level Illusion) and apparently resistant to disbelief (even her own). Perhaps a simulucrum or a programmed illusion combined with a misspoken limited wish, I suppose.
Half-golem templates (along with half-anything-else templates) have been discussed before at the keep. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2013 : 03:46:35
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Here are my thoughts.
1. It'd most likely be sterile. This point is debatable, and I could be persuaded otherwise. However, my initial gut reaction is to declare such a thing sterile.
2. It would have the mind of an infant. Simply transforming a mindless illusionary construct into a living human does not automatically grant to the construct memories, language, or really anything at all in terms of mental thoughts. It would have a human mind, but it would effectively be a 'blank slate' - like an infant. To illustrate the point, assume that you polymorphed a Otyugh into a human. It's 'brain' would transform into that of a human, granting it greater mental ability, but it would carry with it the personality it had as an Otyugh - along with its memories, preferences, etc. The same would be true if you polymorphed an Orc Warlord into a human - it would still be the Orc Warlord, just in a different form. Seeing as how this was formerly a mindless thing (given the semblance of life and intelligence through illusionary magic), it therefore stands that once it actually has a 'brain' - it would effectively be a 'blank slate' since it has nothing to fill it.
3. I'm uncertain if the wizard would maintain control over the polymorphed thing in the same way that it controlled it as a simulacrum. It's nature has changed... it's possible, I think, but it's not a guarantee. I'd likely want to test the wizards will against the newly created creatures will.
4. I would argue that the use of Wish could overcome all of these limitations. I would even be generous and say that a wish that was worded well could even potentially grant the creature most of the kings memories, mannerisms, personality traits, etc. allowing it to effectively pass undetected. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2013 : 04:27:28
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I think charm monster + doppleganger is a better approach, personally. Or cut out the middleman and just charm person.
Consider, if you will, that if your PC wizard comes up with a foolproof undetectable untraceable gimmick ... he could very well be replacing a king who has already been replaced. Perhaps he's trying to counterfeit on of the king's body-doubles (in which case there might be all sorts of hidden magical alarms or traps) or perhaps he's trying to counterfeit a counterfeit. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2013 : 08:49:48
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| Well, I liked the simulacrum + polymorph any object idea. Then again, what's to stop our wizard from skipping the simulacrum and just using polymorph any object? |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2013 : 09:10:08
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| I suspect the idea behind these particular spell combinations is to attempt to somehow gain absolute unchallenged mental control over the duplicate, to ensure it will never become a threat. |
[/Ayrik] |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11875 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2013 : 00:31:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I suspect the idea behind these particular spell combinations is to attempt to somehow gain absolute unchallenged mental control over the duplicate, to ensure it will never become a threat.
Actually, my logic behind it was "the simulacrum is an intelligent construct with many of the memories of the original, plus he shares through his creation some of the 'living characteristics' of the original through use of genetic material in its creation" such that when he's polymorphed... magic might carry those living characteristics over into the human form and pass them on if a child could be created.
Hell, another story could be that some demented wizardess who was married to the king just can't accept that he's dead and she's trying this as a last ditch effort to not lose her love. Meanwhile, whenever she polymorphs the simulacrum, maybe he does become free-willed. Maybe he kills her? Then, before he reverts back to being a simulacrum he uses the "staff of polymorph any object" to turn himself into some other kind of construct (or even a elemental being made of water) and flees. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Darsson Spellmaker
Seeker
56 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2013 : 05:14:02
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It's funny, this reminds me of Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk. It details the scheme of a simulacrum of an epic-level wizardess to become a true living duplicate of the original. To do it, she has to utilize the combined powers of two artifacts, one a massive stone capable of channeling the raw magic of the world into her, and the other a cage capable of siphoning off the divine energies of imprisoned demigods and infusing her with it.
All this just to become a real, living, breathing human being, albeit with the knowledge and power of a 30th-level wizard. |
"Know, O mages, that there is learning, and there is wisdom, and they are very far from being the same thing."--Azuth the High One, Utterances from the Altar: Collected Verbal Manifestations of the Divine and Most Holy Lord of Spells (holy chapbook, assembled by anonymous priests of Azuth circa 1358 DR)
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11875 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2013 : 17:16:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Darsson Spellmaker
It's funny, this reminds me of Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk. It details the scheme of a simulacrum of an epic-level wizardess to become a true living duplicate of the original. To do it, she has to utilize the combined powers of two artifacts, one a massive stone capable of channeling the raw magic of the world into her, and the other a cage capable of siphoning off the divine energies of imprisoned demigods and infusing her with it.
All this just to become a real, living, breathing human being, albeit with the knowledge and power of a 30th-level wizard.
Really? I've never read that module, but now I'm intrigued. Just wondering, what edition was it? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2013 : 18:54:54
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My WGR1: Ruins of Greyhawk cover has the TSR AD&D2E logo, but it's partially covered with a bright yellow starburst which reads "Compatible with the AD&D and 2nd Edition AD&D Game Systems!", just like the Greyhawk Adventures hardcover.
It's a respectably massive tangle of interconnected megadungeons, a mini-campaign "designed for 5-7 characters of levels 2-15", but also designed in Gygax's classic adversarial-DM style (with a healthy dash of unfair Grimtooth sadism), so expect PCs to die repeatedly. The megadungeons are of cousre the ruins of Castle Greyhawk, including Zagyg's Tower (and Zagyg's Arsenal, Zagyg's Dungeons, Zagyg's Toilets, etc). It is filled with epic-level artifacts, toys, magics, traps, monsters, and problems. To be honest, I think of it as a munchkinized version of the Underdark, although I hardly know anything about the Greyhawk setting.
To give you some context, I witnessed a large party (about 90 levels total, perhaps 120 if including NPC entourage) fight against a vast orc legion on the first level of one tower; a non-stop battle so lengthy that it took half a weekend to play through, a ring of regeneration significantly healed two combatants, and a PC mageling expended 97 charges from his wand of frost. Have fun. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36817 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2013 : 20:37:02
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Darsson Spellmaker
It's funny, this reminds me of Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk. It details the scheme of a simulacrum of an epic-level wizardess to become a true living duplicate of the original. To do it, she has to utilize the combined powers of two artifacts, one a massive stone capable of channeling the raw magic of the world into her, and the other a cage capable of siphoning off the divine energies of imprisoned demigods and infusing her with it.
All this just to become a real, living, breathing human being, albeit with the knowledge and power of a 30th-level wizard.
Really? I've never read that module, but now I'm intrigued. Just wondering, what edition was it?
3.5. It was one of those "Expedition To" hardbacks, like the Expedition To Undermountain book. They had the generic D&D imprint on them, instead of being sold as setting-specific. I've never read the books myself, but I tried on the Undermountain book and gave up after being completely underwhelmed. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31794 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2013 : 02:05:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Darsson Spellmaker
It's funny, this reminds me of Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk. It details the scheme of a simulacrum of an epic-level wizardess to become a true living duplicate of the original. To do it, she has to utilize the combined powers of two artifacts, one a massive stone capable of channeling the raw magic of the world into her, and the other a cage capable of siphoning off the divine energies of imprisoned demigods and infusing her with it.
All this just to become a real, living, breathing human being, albeit with the knowledge and power of a 30th-level wizard.
Really? I've never read that module, but now I'm intrigued. Just wondering, what edition was it?
3.5. It was one of those "Expedition To" hardbacks, like the Expedition To Undermountain book. They had the generic D&D imprint on them, instead of being sold as setting-specific. I've never read the books myself, but I tried on the Undermountain book and gave up after being completely underwhelmed.
The Expedition to Castle Ravenloft was a neat product... if only because it had a real nostalgic flavour to it. Like you were discovering RAVENLOFT for the first time. |
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Creating Life - the wizard's way
