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Markustay

A real hero doesn't do it for the adulation.

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Originally posted by Seravin

Don't most of Mystra's Chosen meet this definition?

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Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus

I actually agree with the topic in the sense that the realms lacks "legendary" heroes; which is to say, literal figures of legend, akin to Herakles/Hercules in the real world. The OP mentioned Karsus, who I've likened before to Icarus and others to Achilles. One could also point to Uthgar as an example, and in modern times Obould and Fzoul could be seen as such to orcs and banites, respectively, but I don't see much in the way of folk heroes in the realms that the common man may compare a contemporary hero to.

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Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus

I actually agree with the topic in the sense that the realms lacks "legendary" heroes; which is to say, literal figures of legend, akin to Herakles/Hercules in the real world. The OP mentioned Karsus, who I've likened before to Icarus and others to Achilles. One could also point to Uthgar as an example, and in modern times Obould and Fzoul could be seen as such to orcs and banites, respectively, but I don't see much in the way of folk heroes in the realms that the common man may compare a contemporary hero to.

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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

From a writer's perspective:

Putting in references to other heroes and their deeds is sometimes problematic. We actively avoid writing in other sandboxes, both as a professional courtesy and as stipulated in our agreement with WotC (i.e. don't use other people's signature characters). Also, since novels are constantly evolving while they're on the writer's desk, it's really only "safe" to refer to deeds from novels already in print, and then there's a question of whether the characters in your novel would have even heard of the heroes from another book, much less consider them great deeds worthy of song.

All discussion about RSEs aside, the Realms are full of small-scale events and (regardless of scope) events where the hero is less important than the event itself. For instance, Huma's story in Dragonlance is very much about him and his great romantic quest. I'm willing to bet I can tell you much more about him than about what actually happened in his quest. By contrast, I can tell you a lot more about the events of the Last Mythal series (the return of the elves, the nigh destruction of the fey'ri, the reclamation of Myth Drannor) than I can about the interpersonal relationships and foibles of the heroes involved.

Also, there are a LOT of tales in the Realms, about a LOT of different heroes doing a LOT of different things. The setting has, to a degree, democratized heroism wherein anybody who wanders out his/her backdoor with a sword and a little luck might become a hero of whom songs are sung and to whom wine is toasted. It just isn't the kind of setting that fixates on just a few heroes and a core story, the way Dragonlance does. In Dragonlance, the Heroes of the Lance basically did the vast majority of everything that needed doing, so of course they became storied heroes. In the Realms, the heroism is more widely distributed.

All that said, yes, it's nice to hear about actual references to great heroes (the Grand History of the Realms is a fantastic source), and the novels and sourcebooks do occasionally highlight particular heroes who have done great deeds in the setting. Sometimes these heroes are even characters from other novels.

I myself have done it more than once. In my novel Ghostwalker, one of the characters (in the Silver Marches) makes a joke about a lone drow killing a thousand orcs (with two swords, perhaps), and how unbelievable such a tale is even for him (a bard). In my novel Downshadow, there are tiny references to Elminster, Erevis Cale, and several other Realms novels and characters.

So yes, it does happen, but it just isn't the focus, for lots of reasons. Perhaps the biggest of which is a question of genre: Dragonlance is epic heroic fantasy, which places a major emphasis on its heroes. Forgotten Realms, by contrast, is closer to sword-and-sorcery, where its heroes are sometimes unsung, but that doesn't take away from their heroism.

Cheers

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Originally posted by jordanz

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Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus

I actually agree with the topic in the sense that the realms lacks "legendary" heroes; which is to say, literal figures of legend, akin to Herakles/Hercules in the real world. The OP mentioned Karsus, who I've likened before to Icarus and others to Achilles. One could also point to Uthgar as an example, and in modern times Obould and Fzoul could be seen as such to orcs and banites, respectively, but I don't see much in the way of folk heroes in the realms that the common man may compare a contemporary hero to.

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Bingo! I know FR is huge but still, where are the legends? Every world no matter how large will produce legendary acts that transcend continents and cultures.

The Forgotten Realms has legendary events but the heroes involved are relegated to footnotes.

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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

From a writer's perspective:

Putting in references to other heroes and their deeds is sometimes problematic. We actively avoid writing in other sandboxes, both as a professional courtesy and as stipulated in our agreement with WotC (i.e. don't use other people's signature characters). Also, since novels are constantly evolving while they're on the writer's desk, it's really only "safe" to refer to deeds from novels already in print, and then there's a question of whether the characters in your novel would have even heard of the heroes from another book, much less consider them great deeds worthy of song.

All discussion about RSEs aside, the Realms are full of small-scale events and (regardless of scope) events where the hero is less important than the event itself. For instance, Huma's story in Dragonlance is very much about him and his great romantic quest. I'm willing to bet I can tell you much more about him than about what actually happened in his quest. By contrast, I can tell you a lot more about the events of the Last Mythal series (the return of the elves, the nigh destruction of the fey'ri, the reclamation of Myth Drannor) than I can about the interpersonal relationships and foibles of the heroes involved.

Also, there are a LOT of tales in the Realms, about a LOT of different heroes doing a LOT of different things. The setting has, to a degree, democratized heroism wherein anybody who wanders out his/her backdoor with a sword and a little luck might become a hero of whom songs are sung and to whom wine is toasted. It just isn't the kind of setting that fixates on just a few heroes and a core story, the way Dragonlance does. In Dragonlance, the Heroes of the Lance basically did the vast majority of everything that needed doing, so of course they became storied heroes. In the Realms, the heroism is more widely distributed.

All that said, yes, it's nice to hear about actual references to great heroes (the Grand History of the Realms is a fantastic source), and the novels and sourcebooks do occasionally highlight particular heroes who have done great deeds in the setting. Sometimes these heroes are even characters from other novels.

I myself have done it more than once. In my novel Ghostwalker, one of the characters (in the Silver Marches) makes a joke about a lone drow killing a thousand orcs (with two swords, perhaps), and how unbelievable such a tale is even for him (a bard). In my novel Downshadow, there are tiny references to Elminster, Erevis Cale, and several other Realms novels and characters.

So yes, it does happen, but it just isn't the focus, for lots of reasons. Perhaps the biggest of which is a question of genre: Dragonlance is epic heroic fantasy, which places a major emphasis on its heroes. Forgotten Realms, by contrast, is closer to sword-and-sorcery, where its heroes are sometimes unsung, but that doesn't take away from their heroism.

Cheers

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Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus

That being said, the hesitance in even name dropping other writer's characters seems...odd to me.

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Or to bring it to one of your novels, Eric, while reading Shadowbane, I found it striking that a book taking place in Luskan made no mention of Bregan D'aerthe, even through implication- perhaps because I had so recently read Gauntlgrym and Neverwinter Wood beforehand. Though I suppose it makes sense that they'd have abandoned Luskan given the state it had fallen to in the ten year gap(if memory serves) between Bob's Neverwinter Saga and your Shadowbane books, I still found the contrast between portrayals of Luskan to be striking.

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[...] I feel it's something that should happen more than it does, if only to create the feel of an interconnected world.

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Also, Eric, I'm curious if Wizards has entertained the idea of author collaboration crossovers. While again, it's not something I'd want to see overdone, it seems to me like it would be the ideal solution to the problem of writers not wanting to use each other's characters out of respect; just have them both work on the book so they can hash everything out together.

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Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus

I certainly understand not out and out using other writer's characters both as a courtesy and a contract stipulation- it would certainly be bad form for Bob to pick up Kalen Dren and having him show up in the next Drizzt book without your permission, or vise versa.
That being said, the hesitance in even name dropping other writer's characters seems...odd to me. I remember reading about how Elaine Cunningham called up Bob to ask permission to reference Jarlaxle through implication rather than by name- despite the fact that the two characters are related(which isn't to say she shouldn't have asked permission, just that it seems odd to me she wouldn't name drop the character as well).

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Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus

Or to bring it to one of your novels, Eric, while reading Shadowbane, I found it striking that a book taking place in Luskan made no mention of Bregan D'aerthe, even through implication- perhaps because I had so recently read Gauntlgrym and Neverwinter Wood beforehand. Though I suppose it makes sense that they'd have abandoned Luskan given the state it had fallen to in the ten year gap(if memory serves) between Bob's Neverwinter Saga and your Shadowbane books, I still found the contrast between portrayals of Luskan to be striking.

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Originally posted by BEAST

Yeah, that kind of a lack of any mention seems ridiculously conspicuous. People would talk about drow having been all over the city, even if they were no longer around. In the RW, people talk about crimes that took place in a local area years after the fact.

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Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus

and while I think the respect should certainly be shown for one author to ask permission to name drop another's character before doing so, simply out of common courtesy, I feel it's something that should happen more than it does, if only to create the feel of an interconnected world.
Like I said, keep it to a minimum because if that kind of thing gets out of hand, it can go south and quickly, but acknowledgement by these characters that they live in the same world would be a pleasant change, I think.

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Originally posted by BEAST

Have the writers involved work out the interactions/details. What's the problem, with that?

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Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus

Also, Eric, I'm curious if Wizards has entertained the idea of author collaboration crossovers. While again, it's not something I'd want to see overdone, it seems to me like it would be the ideal solution to the problem of writers not wanting to use each other's characters out of respect; just have them both work on the book so they can hash everything out together.

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Originally posted by BEAST

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Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus

That being said, the hesitance in even name dropping other writer's characters seems...odd to me.

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Can't the editors/traffic cops just coordinate this sort of thing?

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Originally posted by BEAST

Just don't do it without prior coordination. Finding out after the fact sucks!

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Originally posted by BEAST

Or, at least have the second author write/oversee those scenes in which his/her character is involved. For example, have Ed co-write the scenes wherein Drizzt interacts with Lady Alustriel in Silverymoon in Streams of Silver.

Early on, Bob described his interaction with his son Geno in the "Stone of Tymora" mini-series as Geno doing most of the writing himself, while Bob got more actively involved whenever Drizzt popped up, and then becoming very hands-on during the fight scenes. I'm not holding that series up as some sort of would-be standard for other writers, but as a model for the collaborative process.

Sorry if this is too blunt or intrusive, but is it that the compensation is just so low that nobody wants to/can afford to share on any one given book like that?

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Originally posted by BEAST

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[...] I feel it's something that should happen more than it does, if only to create the feel of an interconnected world.

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Yeah, it contributes to the integrity or wholeness of it. Having comprehensive reference works like the Campaign Settings/Guides only go so far, because they typically just list the events/characters under the same cover. But actually showing how they all connect with one another, by actually showing them connecting, would be better.
People have complained that Bob didn't write Alustriel or Khelben accurately back in "The Icewind Dale Trilogy", but still, at least he didn't tiptoe around those major characters when he had Drizzt go to Silverymoon and Waterdeep.
That avoidance seems artificial and contrived, and almost strained.
It's like a child complaining to a parent about a sibling, "Mom, he's touching me!" I'm not calling you writers petty children. I'm saying that any attempt to maintain that sort of scenario by trying to keep the kids from ever touching each other just seems like a silly farce.

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Originally posted by althen artren

So Erik, you mentioned above that you could give a lot more detail about the Crusade. Is that TRUE????????

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