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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Feb 2013 : 10:56:12
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
(...)
and not just El and his fellow Chosen knew about the mists (and Ravenloft at the other end of them), quite a few wizards and high-ranking priests across the Realms did.
(...)
love,
THO
How could they know about Ravenloft? I mean, theoretically people don't come back to tell about it. Did they know someone who managed this incredible feat? If so, how spread would be this knowledge? I mean, maybe one of the Chosen knew someone that came back and told the others, but how much would a priest or mage know about it, especially if he or she is not close to any of the Chosen? Or the few wizards and priests who know about it are all allies of the Chosen? Have any chosen, or one of those wizards or priests, been there personally, or somehow scried Ravenloft? And finally, do they know about Athas, another supposedly isolated world/setting? |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2013 : 16:17:10
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"another supposedly isolated world/setting"?
Hang on, now. Athas from the outset was explicitly presented as an isolated setting. Ravenloft was presented as a demiplane that impinged upon and interacted with ALL settings (so, hardly "isolated").
No surprise to reveal that I, too, am interested in hearing more from Ed on this. 
BB |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2013 : 16:26:56
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The crossover module(s) regarding Spulzeer covers some of this - the Mists have stolen places from FR before.
My last FR campaign - about seven years ago now - I had Elminster stuck in Ravenloft during the game. I can't recall the precise back-story I came up with, but I do recall the other Chosen were looking for him and trying to bring him home. (I basically didn't want the PCs to "go looking for Elminster"). Its funny looking back now, because that game happened to be set in 1385 DR (and my one before that was setting in the late 1400's of Toril, over in Anchorome... those pesky designers need to stop peaking through my windows!) 
There's also a Red Wizard of Thay that made it over to Ravenloft - one can assume at least some Red Wizards know of the Mists.
@Mapolq - my question wasn't about any specific occurrence, but rather the cumulative effect over thousands upon thousands of years - we have evidence of entire SJ hives/civilizations making their homes on Toril as well. The question can even be broadened to D&D in general - every planet gets mass added to it, even incrementally, every time someone summons something or conjures matter from the elemental planes. I was just wondering if Ed has thought about this, or if he has any ideas about what sort of counter-balancing measures are in-place (either put there on-purpose by 'the powers that be', or just something that occurs naturally).
When I look at his approach to world-design, I realize everything has a sort-of 'weight' to it (good, evil, law, chaos, magic, etc), and he has thought about these types of balancing factors in other regards. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Feb 2013 16:34:13 |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2013 : 16:35:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Blueblade
"another supposedly isolated world/setting"?
Hang on, now. Athas from the outset was explicitly presented as an isolated setting. Ravenloft was presented as a demiplane that impinged upon and interacted with ALL settings (so, hardly "isolated").
(...)
Well, I said that because even if Ravenloft touched every other setting, it should be a dimension without return, so almost everyone would never know about it (it's isolated in one-way, let's say). And there is also a reference of a Dark Sun primer character in a Planescape book, so it's not completely isolated.  |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2013 : 17:07:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
quote:
Originally posted by Blueblade
"another supposedly isolated world/setting"?
Hang on, now. Athas from the outset was explicitly presented as an isolated setting. Ravenloft was presented as a demiplane that impinged upon and interacted with ALL settings (so, hardly "isolated").
(...)
Well, I said that because even if Ravenloft touched every other setting, it should be a dimension without return, so almost everyone would never know about it (it's isolated in one-way, let's say). And there is also a reference of a Dark Sun primer character in a Planescape book, so it's not completely isolated.
It is possible to escape from Ravenloft; it's just very difficult. Divination and deities could also be further sources of information. Even if deities are unwilling to speak on the nature of the Dark Powers, they could still know about the demiplane -- especially those deities with followers there.
So it would be possible for information about Ravenloft to exist in the lands beyond the Mists. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2013 : 19:52:28
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Ed,
I've been more interested in Soorenar the past little bit. Its where one of my main NPC's (Sleyvas) fled after being labeled a renegade red wizard (and after arranging his innocent wife's fake demise and relocation through Elminster in return for future favors). Being a warrior-wizard, he fit in with the culture, plus he found himself turning to the church of the red knight. He also found himself involved with the church of Velsharoon, which had setup a temple in the lands surrounding the mortal Velsharoon's Tower Terrible. However, in 4th edition, it seems that Soorenar is drowned. I'm wondering.... HOW was it drowned? Did it have to do with Akanul falling upon it? Was it some other event? When did it happen? Did the Tower Terrible survive the event? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2013 : 20:43:00
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Hi again, everyone.
Jeremy, "Alara" rather than "Alana" is indeed correct.
All interested scribes, re. Ravenloft: Wooly is right, one CAN return from Ravenloft, and in fact there have been quite a few "returns" to the Realms, including of adventuring bands deliberately sent in to bring someone back.
So it's not surprising that high-ranking priests and certain wizards (who have means of finding out more about the Mists than the legends and wild tavern tales most folk in the Realms have) know a little about Ravenloft. Just as they know a little (however wrong, distorted, or incomplete) about various other planes.
love to all,
THO |
Edited by - The Hooded One on 19 Feb 2013 21:08:16 |
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Euranna
Learned Scribe
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2013 : 21:10:16
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| I am so very glad that my question sparked so much interest. It has stirred more discussion in my house. Especially Wooly's additional questions. I would be curious to know how those that know of the Mists and Ravenloft think of it? Is it a necessity/good thing? Something to be stopped/prevented? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2013 : 22:34:00
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Hi again, everyone.
Jeremy, "Alara" rather than "Alana" is indeed correct.
All interested scribes, re. Ravenloft: Wooly is right, one CAN return from Ravenloft, and in fact there have been quite a few "returns" to the Realms, including of adventuring bands deliberately sent in to bring someone back.
So it's not surprising that high-ranking priests and certain wizards (who have means of finding out more about the Mists than the legends and wild tavern tales most folk in the Realms have) know a little about Ravenloft. Just as they know a little (however wrong, distorted, or incomplete) about various other planes.
love to all,
THO
Anything you can add about any of these groups, who they rescued, or their adventures? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2013 : 01:25:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
There's also a Red Wizard of Thay that made it over to Ravenloft - one can assume at least some Red Wizards know of the Mists.
There are religious aspects that have found grounding in the Realm of Dread as well -- like Lathander and Bane.
So it's not only people and places, but ideas and faiths as well. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2013 : 01:29:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
quote:
Originally posted by Blueblade
"another supposedly isolated world/setting"?
Hang on, now. Athas from the outset was explicitly presented as an isolated setting. Ravenloft was presented as a demiplane that impinged upon and interacted with ALL settings (so, hardly "isolated").
(...)
Well, I said that because even if Ravenloft touched every other setting, it should be a dimension without return, so almost everyone would never know about it (it's isolated in one-way, let's say). And there is also a reference of a Dark Sun primer character in a Planescape book, so it's not completely isolated.
It is possible to escape from Ravenloft; it's just very difficult.
By it's supposed nature, only the Dark Powers can release a trapped person or land from RAVENLOFT. But there are alternate cases, and those characters affected by "higher powers" -- like TSR/WotC. The case of Lord Soth, for example.
quote:
Divination and deities could also be further sources of information. Even if deities are unwilling to speak on the nature of the Dark Powers, they could still know about the demiplane -- especially those deities with followers there.
The 3e books suggested that the Mists and the Dark Powers actually could create "voids" in the minds of all non-RAVENLOFT inhabitants who could potentially come to know of the demiplane. Knowledge of RAVENLOFT would be stricken from their minds -- existing specifically as a blank memory. It wasn't ever made clear as to whether deities where affected as well.
And, really, I think this had more to do with the 3e version of RAVENLOFT divorcing itself from the inter-campaign setting connections that were so prominent in the 2e setting.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2013 : 01:31:25
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Hi again, everyone.
Jeremy, "Alara" rather than "Alana" is indeed correct.
All interested scribes, re. Ravenloft: Wooly is right, one CAN return from Ravenloft, and in fact there have been quite a few "returns" to the Realms, including of adventuring bands deliberately sent in to bring someone back.
So it's not surprising that high-ranking priests and certain wizards (who have means of finding out more about the Mists than the legends and wild tavern tales most folk in the Realms have) know a little about Ravenloft. Just as they know a little (however wrong, distorted, or incomplete) about various other planes.
love to all,
THO
Further query, my lovely lady...
Have these high-ranking priests and wizards ever deliberately sought more knowledge about the Mists and/or the Realm of Dread from their gods? What has occurred as a result of their investigations? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2013 : 10:54:03
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
There's also a Red Wizard of Thay that made it over to Ravenloft - one can assume at least some Red Wizards know of the Mists.
There are religious aspects that have found grounding in the Realm of Dread as well -- like Lathander and Bane.
So it's not only people and places, but ideas and faiths as well.
I've always thought that returning was so hard and difficult that knowlegde would be minimal... And about FR people living and even founding religious service in RL was expected, I just didn't know that people back in Toril would know about them.
Bbout THO's response, my question is: average folk in taverns DO know about the mists? What kind of legends the average Faerűnian knows about the Realms of Dread? |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2013 : 13:03:32
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I have a question (my first of the new year, I think, and very, VERY belated Happy New Year and so on to Ed, late though it may be...) based on one of the few D&D 3rd edition sourcebooks I didn't have lying around until recently (which I now have, but here, there, neither, etc.), specifically "Magic of Incarnum" and the possibilities of using it in existing campaign settings.
I'm not sure how familiar Ed is with the Incarnum system and setting information that it introduces or relies on, but Incarnum is basically soul energy, blue in colour, an "amorphous magical substance made up of the soul energies of all sentient creatures - living, dead, and perhaps those not even yet born". There are also soulmelds (semipermanent magical effects crafted from raw incarnum) and essentia (a personal store of incarnum that each individual carries around - everybody supposedly has it, but only some can learn to manipulate it). It also introduces Dusklings (supposedly native to Arvandor or the House of Nature in the Realms cosmology), little fae with a penchant for manipulating incarnum.
There were two online articles I can find that talked about it in FR-specific contexts:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070808
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070904
Specifically from the first article: "The lore presented above can be used instead of or in addition to that which is presented in the rest of the entry. Incarnum can be accessed in the Realms via the descendants of heavy magic, the manipulation of the wisps of energy cast off from major magical disturbances, or by other, heretofore unforeseen sources."
I am wondering if Ed has any thoughts on the system and its suitability for the Realms. Or if it could/should be placed in FR at all, in his opinion as forger of the Realms (there are other elements of D&D that don't quite fit, after all - as I recall, one of my previous questions involving Time Dragons had the notation that they aren't very common at all). Incarnum seems very... different to most magic systems in 3rd edition, and I'm not personally sure if it really fits. While the Realms is home to many different things in varying quantities, some will obviously fit into it better than others. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2013 : 18:33:40
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Hi again, all. I bring you a swift reply from Ed to Eldacar, re. incarnum:
Hi, Eldacar, and may your 2013 be happy, prosperous, and eventually fond in memory!
Yes, incarnum is certainly suitable for the Realms. I have always envisaged the Realms as having many, many systems of magic (including "wild talents" that eventually made it into the game as the sorcerer class, so-called wild magic, table magic, circle magic and spellsinging [both of which have also entered the rules, albeit in altered form from my originals], mantles, mythals, and so on; I created literally DOZENS of magic systems for the Realms). Just as I posited countless variant versions of the "known" spells.
The root idea is to keep things on a roleplaying level, so players won't be able to use their metagame knowledge to unerringly discern things about every magical foe because they've memorized the PHB and the DMG; they will be confronted with magic as something they have to observe on the spot, make guesses about, and act accordingly.
Yes, it's confusing, and yes, all gamers will need to tinker with rules to make sure things aren't unbalanced (or that they've considered what will happen when magical effect X runs full-tilt into magical effect Y), but the more the merrier, I say. Keeps things lively, spurs constant new plot ideas, and restores some of the mystery and therefore respect to magic (rather than the "See that fireball? He CAN'T be more than xth level, so his max hit points have to be Z or less, so HIT HIM, everybody!" thinking that so often replaces the "Try not to attract his notice; he's a WIZARD!" thinking that should prevail, more often).
So, yes, go right ahead and use incarnum. I have.
So saith Ed, creator of mythals, mantles, spellsinging, and so on.
And not a bad fencer, before his knees gave out.
love,
THO |
Edited by - The Hooded One on 20 Feb 2013 19:52:24 |
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dravenloft
Acolyte
USA
35 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2013 : 22:35:54
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Milady THO, question for Ed or yourself about the day-to-day eating habits of Cormyrians and Waterhavians.
For nobles and commoners what's "normal food"? Is there much overlap? I can think of a few examples from Ed's books, and a few of Elaine's, but Stormlight's feast scene has foods in it even some of the nobility at the table wasn't entirely sure the nature of, which leads me to believe the Summerstars were putting on a show for the vaious visitors and pulling out all the stops.
Same sorts of things can be said in Cormyr. City of Splendors and the Arylin and Danilo stories seem to indicate an incredible number of seafood stews for the common folk, but is there anything else, or any common thread to the recipes?
I've been watching the various food questions and well, loads of answers about parties and so on, but not what a Suzailian noble's daughter might just get a hankerin' for.
Thanks. |
Space Opera, Planetary Romance, Speculative Fiction and similar by me.
check it out at http://universal-nexus.com |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2013 : 02:21:51
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Hi again, all.
dravenloft, Ed has answered many, many food questions down the years (even to giving recipes), and the short answer to your question is: nobles have the money to eat meat and exotic (that is, from afar) food more often than commoners, but all in all, everyone eats everything. Yes, nobles put on a show when they have guests, but otherwise eat their favorite foods if they can get them (and they usually can, being the owners of lands that may have tenant farmers or are suitable for hunting.
Here's Ed from 1987, on the difference between what's on a Cormyrean nobleman's platter on a typical no-guests/no-big-feast night, versus what his own servants are eating:
The lord will have three sorts of wines with the various "removes" (courses) of his meal, and will begin with soup (turtle or chicken broth with dumplings) and savoury tarts, probably fish or chicken livers cooked with wine and spices, then move on to game birds or roast boar or venison (marinaded overnight, and then stuffed with a strong savoury stuffing of mushrooms, herbs, spices, and a contrasting-in-flavour meat [goose, perhaps]), and then end with a fantastic fruits-cooked-in-sugar-syrup open-topped pie, or small pastries making heavy use of cherries and citrus peel.
His servants will have the same soup, augmented with more dumplings and leftover gravies and table vegetables from the night before, to make a thicker stew, then a "brandinage" (= loose mess on the plate) of all the ingredients that went into the stuffed roast or game birds, and then biscuits. Dessert, if any, will be biscuits drenched in honey or smeared with the "bowl leftovers" of the fruits and peels mix of the pie.
Of course, commoners working in city streets, shops, and workshops will have more "hand pies," pastries, and sausages (portable foods), and undoubtedly Waterdhavian nobles and commoners will have more seafood (eel pies for commoners and buttered snails for nobles are common Waterdhavian dishes, I know), but I'll have to nudge Ed for the Waterdhavian equivalent of the "typical wuiet night at home" noble meal vs. the meal for the servants, for you.
Mmmm, I've just eaten and I'm getting hungry all over again . . .
love,
THO |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2013 : 02:38:33
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Aaaand I'm back, or rather Ed is, with a response to this, from Damian: "As an aside, Ed can you spill the beans on any rogue heralds in Cormyr's recent history that didn't keep things legal (circa 1200 - 1400DR) and what if anything might have happened to them?"
Ed replies:
Heralds who make too many mistakes, or who engage in "dishonesty of office" (such as twisting blazons or who can use them in return for covert payments) get dismissed and imprisoned for a year or two or even three (so they can't sew discord or confusion while their replacement settles into the office they formerly held). The High Heralds see to this, in cooperation with various rulers (and no, there is VERY rarely dishonesty among the High Heralds, though there are respectful disputes). Local heralds (and especially the ruler-appointed "court heralds") are the sources of such backsliding. Local heralds dismissed in disgrace during the time period you mention were almost all in Sembia, and took bribes to style various wealthy Sembian non-nobles as full nobility WITH FAKED CONNECTIONS TO real, established nobility from elsewhere in the Realms. The heralds holding the offices of Bronzetree, Gelgorget, Hardragonet, and Elmaer were all removed and replaced.
In Cormyr, Lord Helstallion was exiled and lost his title (though the rest of his family were unaffected) because he imprisoned a local herald for a short period so he could forge grants of arms and letters purporting to be from that herald, so assassins he'd hired could be passed off as visiting nobility from the Shining South, and so gain access to a rival noble he wanted slain (the scheme was seen through by War Wizards before any killing could be attempted; Helstallion's punishment was purely for impersonating a herald).
So saith Ed. Who once contemplated trying to become a herald in real life.
love,
THO
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Edited by - The Hooded One on 21 Feb 2013 02:40:25 |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2013 : 05:41:11
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| Is "brandinage" a real-world term or a Realms term? I tried looking it up in my home dictionary and online, but couldn't find mention of it beyond misspellings of "brand image". |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2013 : 09:12:28
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
The heralds holding the offices of Bronzetree, Gelgorget, Hardragonet, and Elmaer were all removed and replaced.
In Cormyr, Lord Helstallion was exiled and lost his title (though the rest of his family were unaffected)
Many many thanks for the additional Herald lore, were the Herald titles named above 'retired' because of the scandal's they were involved with or are they reused by the new incumbent?
ooooo nice to see another 'unknown' Noble family make an appearance. I don't suppose there is any more on the Helstallion's is there? (do we have a 'fingers crossed' smiley?)
Kind regards
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2013 : 14:08:40
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While we are on the topic....
How FAR does the Herald's purview extend? I assume it runs north to south from the far north of Faerűn down to the Utter East, but what about east and west? Does it stop at The Moonshaes, or at Thay? Does it extend further south then I think, down into Zakhara, or further east into Kara-Tur? For instance, do The Heralds recognize any coat-of-arms for Kourmira (the new capital of the Tuigan nation)?
What about what happens in Maztica? We know that there is/was colonies there, and nobles were granted tracks of land - have the Heralds extended their sway to that continent as well, now? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Feb 2013 14:09:26 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2013 : 16:38:43
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Hi again, all. Talked to Ed this morning, and . . .
Jeremy, "brandinage" is a Realms term (i.e. Ed invented it). He tried to signal that by putting quotation marks around it.
Damian, the heraldic offices weren't retired; when Ed said "replaced," he meant that new individuals from the ranks of the pursuivants (novice heralds, in training) were elevated into those posts, so the same names of those heraldic offices persist.
(And yes, there'll be more on the Helstallions, somewhere and sometime. Soon, if Ed can manage it, but no promises.)
Markustay, officially the Heralds "have dominion over" the entire world. In daily practice, they are respected and consulted to JUST east of Thay and to Ulgarth (so, not in Kara-Tur or Zakhara - - but for folk of the Sword Coast and Heartlands and Shining South and Inner Sea lands, who travel elsewhere (e.g. Maztica, or Returned Abeir when sailing there is possible), the "writ" of the High Heralds accompanies and governs them; i.e. just because you leave mainland Faerűn doesn't mean you can now ignore the rules and decrees of the Heralds.
There we are, a few grace notes of Realmslore, nailed down for all. Ed promises some commentary on the Mists of Ravenloft, when he can.
love to all,
THO |
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HunterOfStorms
Acolyte
Australia
21 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2013 : 00:24:41
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Hi THO and Ed,
It's been a long time since I raised a question, but while the subject of heralds is being explored, I'd like to know how the Heralds and heralds of the Realms interact with non-human symbology:
Will non-human eg. dwarven, elven etc heraldry be recognised by human heralds?
Vice versa?
Would they (heralds) consider it legal to incorporate dwarven/elven/etc arms into a human crest and arms (because the requester thinks its 'cool' for example) or would there be some regulation over this?
How about an ancient coat of arms (bloodline presumed extinct)- 1)from existing nation or 2)extinct nation - being resurrected by someone:
Because it looks good?
Or because they believe themselves to be a remote descendant?
Or they are trying to create a claim of legitamacy to an area?
Is it considered legal to adopt such symbology if Heralds find no other current genuine claimant?
Or would such heraldry be considered forever retired?
Alright, that's several questions. I should stop now before I get too carried away :)
Hunter |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2013 : 09:15:55
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Hello Ed and THO!
Ed, I just read your Forging the Realms article Melve's Way and I delighted in the potential for gnomish-wreaked havoc should any number of them decide to fight.
Thus I was wondering if the Crown of Cormyr or certain nobles have ever taken to utilizing gnomes as spies, creators of "accidents" or even as slayers?
I realize gnomes will not wish to damage their positive (racial) reputation, yet I can't help but think someone would want to utilize them or that there are gnomes eager to do more than be an ever cheery helper and repairer of things. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 22 Feb 2013 09:16:27 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2013 : 14:55:56
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Thanks for the speedy response, Ed & THO.
Just a couple of more related questions - if a group of Kara-Turrans came to FR (which they did, starting at the end of 2e, and it escalated), and they did have their own heraldry (devices, symbols, etc), would the heralds incorporate that? What about troops from Zakhara, who (usually) would have different devices for each city (each city having its own independent army) - some of them hire out as mercenaries, and it s likely at least a few companies have made it into the southern Realms. Also, Nimbral is at about the same latitude as Zakhara - do the Heralds also keep track f things in Nimbral? Lastly, since I know they keep track of all related fields (like Orcish banners), how about things like Pirate Flags?
Basically, I guess what I am asking is, do they keep track of EVERYTHING they encounter/become aware of, even if its from outside their normal purview (a bit of heraldry on a Spelljamming vessel, for instance, or a fiendish symbol on a company of Bloodwar fiends)? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 22 Feb 2013 14:58:24 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2013 : 00:51:22
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Hi again, all. Herewith, Ed responds to HunterOfStorms:
“Will non-human eg. dwarven, elven etc heraldry be recognised by human heralds?”
Ed: Yes.
“Vice versa?”
Ed: Yes, the High Heralds are recognized by all “civilized” races (this includes hobgoblins and orcs) as “THE” keepers of blazons and grants of arms. Where non-human races differ from human is the extent to which they’ll strictly and precisely obey the heralds - - or to put it another way, a human brigand or most orcs and hobgoblins would use the blazons of a rival tribe or clan (or coster or other organization they don’t belong to) for battlefield trickery, whereas a human noble or royalty or shopkeeping or guilded commoner wouldn’t dare.
“Would they (heralds) consider it legal to incorporate dwarven/elven/etc arms into a human crest and arms (because the requester thinks its 'cool' for example) or would there be some regulation over this?”
Ed: There are regulations (which aren’t published; they boil down to the High Heralds’ judgment, which tends to be strict and narrow in this regard). ELEMENTS (i.e. a “charge”) of elven or dwarven symbols can be incorporated into human arms to signify battle victories over a race (or far more often, specific clan or city or house or family), or more often to signify intermarriages, or even more often to signify alliances or trade joint-ventures.
“How about an ancient coat of arms (bloodline presumed extinct)- 1)from existing nation or 2)extinct nation - being resurrected by someone:
Because it looks good?”
Ed: No. Again, individual charges can be used, but in ways sufficiently different from former usages as to deny confusion (in the heralds’ judgment).
“Or because they believe themselves to be a remote descendant?”
Ed: They would have to prove the descent to the heralds (who are obligated to help them in research, not hinder or casually dismiss them). Mere belief (and even a name or names shared with the possible ancestors) isn’t sufficient. Failure to satisfy the heralds means denial of use of the arms.
“Or they are trying to create a claim of legitimacy to an area?”
Ed: Again, they would have to prove legitimiate descent or inheritance (the heralds guard against this very tendency to claim rights to an area loudly enough and long enough that eventually it becomes unquestioned). If someone with the rights to grant land, such as a ruler, grants such land to someone who has a title or who is given a title by the ruler, the heralds step in to craft a blazon, badge, motto, colors, and so on for the land/title recipient.
“Is it considered legal to adopt such symbology if Heralds find no other current genuine claimant? Or would such heraldry be considered forever retired?”
Ed: Vacant titles and lands don’t come with arms, in the same way as in our real world, having the same surname as someone who was once granted arms doesn’t entitle you to use those arms, if you aren’t related to the armigerous individual(s). So, no, a person in the Realms who knows or assumes a title is vacant can’t just adopt it and the blazon used by the last known holder (or an earlier one). The heralds grant arms to individuals, and confirm descendants in the use of blazons that are inherited (some blazons go with offices, some descend through the generations of titled noble houses, some die with their original holders).
The heraldry of a particular title, office, or family that MAY have died out is held in abeyance by the Heralds in case a “long lost” heir surfaces, so for practical purposes it is retired. If no such heir ever appears, that retirement in effect becomes permanent.
“Permanent retirements” become official when rulers officially dissolve or transfer titles or offices from one bloodline to another.
Things get complicated (and decided on a case-by-case basis) when it comes to rulers trying to strip armigerous noble families of their status, but in general the heralds prevent/deny individual monarchs from stripping noble houses of their heraldry. If a king hates a particular noble, that noble can be exiled and stripped of their lands and titles in a kingdom, but in exile can still style themselves as noble and use their blazons (in fact, should they invade the kingdom and try to overthrow the king, the heralds would expect them to openly use their rightful blazons, not try trickery such as using the blazons of others).
So saith Ed, who loves heraldry (the heraldry of the Realms by and large follows the practices of real-world British heraldry, though some regions in the Realms allow “metals on metals” and “colors on colors” and non-gender-specific shields (rather than lozenges) that the real-life College of Arms would deny.
love,
THO
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2013 : 00:59:50
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Aaaand Ed's right back, with a brief note to sleyvas:
Sorry. Fate of Soorenar NDA right now. Will answer this one when I can.
And another to Markustay:
Yes, the High Heralds try to keep track of ALL heraldry that comes to their attention, however crude (i.e. only simple badges, or simple colors) and however much it contradicts established human-Heartlands-heraldry as administered by the High Heralds for centuries. They do this in their travels, and from reports made to them by local and court heralds (and explorers and far-faring costers and individual merchant traders) everywhere.
And to Jeremy Grenemyer:
The short answer is yes. Both the Crown of Cormyr and many nobles have made use of gnomes, more as "passive eyes" (spies) and smugglers of small, vital items to particular endangered individuals (such as other agents) than as assassins or James-Bond-like violent field agents. Naturally, such usages are kept as secret as possible. A future Forging column will have more to say about the useful-to-adventurers behaviour of particular gnomes.
So saith Ed. Who is humming along through familiar seas of Realmslore, if I'm not manglign metaphors TOO horribly (if I am, you know the appropriate punishments, scribes [wink wink]).
love to all,
THO |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2013 : 06:09:19
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On of the most interesting topics in any realms product came in Volo's Guide to Cormyr: The Sword Heralds. I love the verses that give clues and the wide variety of extradimensional spaces they created. Despite all the great lore about them "The aims, identities, and ultimate fates of the Sword Heralds remain shrouded in mystery." I'm wondering if THO or Ed could shed more light on any of the 15+ unnamed Sword Heralds, any other extra-dimensional vaults you may have detailed for your home campaign, more verses, etc.
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2013 : 07:35:18
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I am so going to get the end effect of Elminster's hammer of nda on this but.....
Tyr the former god of justice, by all rumors of 5e stating that all gods that were around at the time of 3.x were coming back.
Is Tyr going to take up justice again or is he going to become a deity of something else, say the god of penance and leave Torm with law and such...... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2013 : 15:31:56
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Hi again, all.
Sorry, sfdragon, but the Tyr lore is indeed NDA (as is just about anything specific about how things will be in the "New Realms"). Ed can tell you this much: that what you ask has been decided.
Similarly, Ed conveys his regrets to The Masked Mage: The Sword Heralds are NDA for a different reason. Hopefully to be swept away one day, when many secrets are dramatically revealed.
love to all,
THO |
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Questions for Ed Greenwood (2013)
Topic Locked
