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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 03:34:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
All I can say is that Illusions work FAR better in novels than they do in games.
Agreed, same thing for charm spells, which never miss in novels.
Double agreed. Which is why I tend to drop those schools |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4253 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 03:49:30
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In my own games, Illusions and Charms are far more effective.
1e AD&D has strengths in illusions...and Charms work far better (and for far longer!).
2e made many changes to how things work, with Illusionists becoming wizards...and when that happened, Illusions became less inspiring.
With 3.x, Charms were severely cut back on power as well...even the simple Charm Person spell was greatly reduced in power.
HOWEVER, with the advent of the Shadow Adept class...I found new respect for both illusions and charm magic again.
It is hard for me to get rid of any schools...I've always loved Illusions...but from a mechanics viewpoint, Illusions are the least constant in use if you don't have a DM willing to use his imagination too. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 04:18:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
In my own games, Illusions and Charms are far more effective.
1e AD&D has strengths in illusions...and Charms work far better (and for far longer!).
2e made many changes to how things work, with Illusionists becoming wizards...and when that happened, Illusions became less inspiring.
With 3.x, Charms were severely cut back on power as well...even the simple Charm Person spell was greatly reduced in power.
HOWEVER, with the advent of the Shadow Adept class...I found new respect for both illusions and charm magic again.
It is hard for me to get rid of any schools...I've always loved Illusions...but from a mechanics viewpoint, Illusions are the least constant in use if you don't have a DM willing to use his imagination too.
Both schools can be quite aggravating with the wrong DM. particularly those Dm's who planned a story he was dead set on having you follow without imagination or improvisation.
If he suddenly decides all his NPC's have mind Blank items to stop you from "ruining" his planned adventure with enchantments or his NPC's miraculously can see through superior invisibility because of this or that.
We had to force one of the guys who rotates DMing with 6 other people to make character sheets for all NPC's down to the guards because he kept trying to rig things to follow a predetermined plan his way. He was not imaginative enough to realize he could get to the same spot if he just improvised and was very hard headed about it when we started restricting his DMing. If it was not all swords and explosions, he was not happy and would try to make everyone not happy by forcing the issue.
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 07:51:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
If he suddenly decides all his NPC's have mind Blank items to stop you from "ruining" his planned adventure with enchantments or his NPC's miraculously can see through superior invisibility because of this or that.
Thing is, you can avoid most of the enchantment issues with a 1st level spell (as long as you just don't want to have forced compulsion work - remember, even a mind blank can't stop the bard from using Diplomacy or Bluff on you - that's what Sense Motive ranks are for). You can get around invisibility with a 2nd level spell:
"A cloud of golden particles covers everyone and everything in the area, causing creatures to become blinded and visibly outlining invisible things for the duration of the spell. All within the area are covered by the dust, which cannot be removed and continues to sparkle until it fades. Any creature covered by the dust takes a -40 penalty on Hide checks."
Glitterdust (or faerie fire if you're a druid/drow), and as a bonus it makes it incredibly hard to hide as well as blinding all your targets. The only invisibility variant it doesn't work on in 3.5e is the Superior Invisibility spell from the Spell Compendium, and that's an 8th level spell that can still be broken by True Seeing. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 11:35:22
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From a non-power gamer perspective I would want to drop necromancy. Who wants creepy crawly dead things around? I realize the power in game mechanics...but necromancy gross :(
If I were actually a wizard in the realms I think divination would be my favourite thing to do. I like to know what's going on in the world and what's what. Enchantment also appeals to me...because i'm an egomaniac who would love controlling people's minds. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36963 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 15:17:07
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
From a non-power gamer perspective I would want to drop necromancy. Who wants creepy crawly dead things around? I realize the power in game mechanics...but necromancy gross :(
If I were actually a wizard in the realms I think divination would be my favourite thing to do. I like to know what's going on in the world and what's what. Enchantment also appeals to me...because i'm an egomaniac who would love controlling people's minds.
There are some nifty necro spells that have nothing to do with the undead.  |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 15:32:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
If he suddenly decides all his NPC's have mind Blank items to stop you from "ruining" his planned adventure with enchantments or his NPC's miraculously can see through superior invisibility because of this or that.
Thing is, you can avoid most of the enchantment issues with a 1st level spell (as long as you just don't want to have forced compulsion work - remember, even a mind blank can't stop the bard from using Diplomacy or Bluff on you - that's what Sense Motive ranks are for). You can get around invisibility with a 2nd level spell:
"A cloud of golden particles covers everyone and everything in the area, causing creatures to become blinded and visibly outlining invisible things for the duration of the spell. All within the area are covered by the dust, which cannot be removed and continues to sparkle until it fades. Any creature covered by the dust takes a -40 penalty on Hide checks."
Glitterdust (or faerie fire if you're a druid/drow), and as a bonus it makes it incredibly hard to hide as well as blinding all your targets. The only invisibility variant it doesn't work on in 3.5e is the Superior Invisibility spell from the Spell Compendium, and that's an 8th level spell that can still be broken by True Seeing.
Superior invisibility is what I quoted there for a reason. Suddenly everyone has an enchanted gem of true seeing/mind blank, etc so I can't attack and stay invisible. Everyone sees through illusions and is immune to mind affecting spells and for some reason, every dungeon was dimensionally locked.
The DM in question made high level Enchantment and illusion spells pretty worthless because he wanted to start big battles all the time and did not want people getting by on misdirection. He wanted action, he wanted it now and he wanted not everyone to survive. Very annoying to players who built social characters or characters built to be support rather than flat out battlemages. The sad part is a lot of DM' are like that.
The other problem we ran into was crossover. We all had to make new characters for each different DM to run their own games because a bunch of us were getting annoyed as hell at how much some DM's were loading characters for bear, using their own characters as NPC's in their own games to give them a bunch of items. Took all the fun out of the game.
Originally we played same and shared characters no matter who was DMing. But a certain DM would just give ridiculous items and funds before the quest was out. I missed one game, came back the next game to DM, wondering where our level 6 Paladin had gotten a +5 sentient Holy Crusader, and how our other Wizard had gotten a staff of the Magi and why the community stash of money in our safehouse suddenly looked like the treasury of Cormyr. They could literally buy anything they wanted.
As DM that game, I purposefully made sure all those items disappeared and that our treasury was robbed. Made him mad, but everyone else understood and agreed we would strip the characters every game if he continued to overload them with stuff they should not have yet. |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 15:40:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
From a non-power gamer perspective I would want to drop necromancy. Who wants creepy crawly dead things around? I realize the power in game mechanics...but necromancy gross :(
If I were actually a wizard in the realms I think divination would be my favourite thing to do. I like to know what's going on in the world and what's what. Enchantment also appeals to me...because i'm an egomaniac who would love controlling people's minds.
There are some nifty necro spells that have nothing to do with the undead.
The best spells don't. All those make this save or suck and die ray's :) |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
896 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 16:01:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
The best spells don't. All those make this save or suck and die ray's :)
Not to mention the make this save or suck... oh wait that's right, no save allowed rays. |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 16:35:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
The best spells don't. All those make this save or suck and die ray's :)
Not to mention the make this save or suck... oh wait that's right, no save allowed rays.
hehe. Ye olde Empowered quickened ray of Enfeeblement |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2012 : 07:58:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Superior invisibility is what I quoted there for a reason. Suddenly everyone has an enchanted gem of true seeing/mind blank, etc so I can't attack and stay invisible. Everyone sees through illusions and is immune to mind affecting spells and for some reason, every dungeon was dimensionally locked.
The DM in question made high level Enchantment and illusion spells pretty worthless because he wanted to start big battles all the time and did not want people getting by on misdirection. He wanted action, he wanted it now and he wanted not everyone to survive. Very annoying to players who built social characters or characters built to be support rather than flat out battlemages. The sad part is a lot of DM' are like that.
Once you reach high levels like that, I generally find that most of the interesting stuff happens outside of combat and dungeon-crawling (really, the PCs should outgrow most dungeon crawling by the time they reach levels 10-12 or so, and if there is a dungeon, then it's a big one, Expedition to the Demonweb Pits big). It sounds like the DM is one that would prefer the sort of dungeon crawling that you engage in at lower levels, but adjusted for higher levels. Personally, I never found that to work. Once you cross a certain threshold, I think powerful PCs (12+) should be starting to move in higher circles than your average dungeon crawl.
Dimensional lock can be gotten around, however. Assuming you aren't already astrally projecting yourself from a personal demiplane (which you have designed to best favour you, and personalised demiplanes can be really, really nasty to invaders), which the lock doesn't prevent, you'd want to get somebody with a wish. It can be a magic item (ring of three wishes), spell-like/supernatural (do-able with certain builds/whatever), bound minion with it (e.g. planar bind an efreeti, or negotiate with a solar, or any one of the many possibilities), or whatever.
Mostly for the "transport travelers" clause. It moves you regardless of local conditions, and the dimensional lock is a local condition. For transport purposes, nothing beats a wish. As long as you can afford the XP cost or get around it somehow (SLA, SU, magic item, the Pathfinder variant that gives a 1:5 conversion rate on XP/gp costs, or whatever). |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2012 : 08:47:31
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| I don't want to kill things, though. I am trying to put my real self into the position of being a wizard. Not the position of being a wizard fighting stuff D: |
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Best schools of Magic to Drop if specializing?
