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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Oct 2012 : 11:23:15
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I'm sort of getting back into this after years of being away, so apologies if this is a noobish question:
Following the Bhaalspawn Wars in 1372 DR, Bhaal's essence got locked away in Mount Celestia (ultimately guarded by Torm, I guess). However, I'm reading that the planes were substantially disturbed by the Spellplague, such that some planes were destroyed, some disturbed/changed, some withstood the impact without being significantly altered, and some were sent careening such that they might collide with other planes at some point.
Do we know what happened to Mount Celestia? Did it emerge relatively unscathed? Or do we have any information to the effect that it was compromised by the Spellplague?
Thanking you in advance!
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Edited by - Lemernis on 07 Oct 2012 11:25:04
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2012 : 18:12:27
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There was, at one point, a demonic invasion of Celestia, during which time Tyr gave up his godhood, granting his powers to Torm and Bahamut, and sacrificed his life to fend of said invasion.
That being said, I believe that event was actually prior to the Spellplague by some time(year or two), though I could be wrong on the date. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2012 : 23:50:16
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Celestia is still there, it's doing fine. The plane was called the House of the Triad starting around -236 DR to -216 DR (best estimate) after Torm joined with Tyr and Ilmater, completing the eponymous Triad.
Tyr, Torm, and Ilmater raised their own, smaller, mountains (named The Court, Trueheart and Martyrdom) in a ring around Celestia presumably sometime shortly after they took up residence in the plane. Although the three smaller peaks are still there, the plane seems to have returned to it's ancient name of Celestia since the death of Tyr and the breaking of the Triad.
Torm now rules from the ringing city near the top of Celestia, named the True Court, in his palace, which is called the High Seat. Bahamut also makes his home in Celestia. Ilmater still maintains his realm on the peak of Martyrdom. |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2012 : 02:09:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Lemernis
I'm sort of getting back into this after years of being away, so apologies if this is a noobish question:
Following the Bhaalspawn Wars in 1372 DR, Bhaal's essence got locked away in Mount Celestia (ultimately guarded by Torm, I guess). However, I'm reading that the planes were substantially disturbed by the Spellplague, such that some planes were destroyed, some disturbed/changed, some withstood the impact without being significantly altered, and some were sent careening such that they might collide with other planes at some point.
Do we know what happened to Mount Celestia? Did it emerge relatively unscathed? Or do we have any information to the effect that it was compromised by the Spellplague?
Thanking you in advance!
Just wondering, I played Baldur's gate 1 & 2, but I know there were later stories. Was it in those games that it detailed this lore about Bhaalspawn and Mount Celestia? I've always wanted to play Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance ever since I heard it had a character with my name (though I gather its a lizard man for some reason), but I never had the game system. Anyway, as a result, I never found out the whole ending to all the Bhaal stuff, so this is kind of intriguing. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Light
Learned Scribe
Australia
233 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2012 : 06:32:42
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just wondering, I played Baldur's gate 1 & 2, but I know there were later stories. Was it in those games that it detailed this lore about Bhaalspawn and Mount Celestia? I've always wanted to play Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance ever since I heard it had a character with my name (though I gather its a lizard man for some reason), but I never had the game system. Anyway, as a result, I never found out the whole ending to all the Bhaal stuff, so this is kind of intriguing.
If I was to take a guess I would say that it may have come from the novels, which are the canonical version of the Bhaalspawn Wars. I haven't read them myself though. As for Dark Alliance, it actually has nothing to do with Bhaal or his spawn. |
"A true warrior needs no sword" - Thors (Vinland Saga) |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4253 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2012 : 06:27:16
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I'll share with you a quote from Elminster's Forgotten Realms regarding Bhaal:
quote:
After the Time of Troubles, prayers to Bhaal went unanswered for a time; then they were answered again -- but the god himself remains silent. Deathbringers receive instructions from him only rarely, and only in nightmares...commandments that most of them inwardly believe come from some other deity.
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The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Light
Learned Scribe
Australia
233 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2012 : 11:43:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I'll share with you a quote from Elminster's Forgotten Realms regarding Bhaal:
quote:
After the Time of Troubles, prayers to Bhaal went unanswered for a time; then they were answered again -- but the god himself remains silent. Deathbringers receive instructions from him only rarely, and only in nightmares...commandments that most of them inwardly believe come from some other deity.
This is certainly an interesting find and it allows me to continue my facade that my playthrough of BG (where I became a god) is indeed canon after all. |
"A true warrior needs no sword" - Thors (Vinland Saga) |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 13:09:36
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*scratches head wondering about the quote*
I guess the part where the prayers were answered refers to the Throne of Bhaal part of the BG saga and nothing more. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 15:04:35
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We have plenty of instances of deities answering the prayers of other deities, for all sorts of reasons. Aliases, take-overs (Shar's famous for those), and even regencies (Lliira held Wuakeen's portfolio for her for a time).
Nothing really new there.
In my HB material I've had Khali-Mar (Kali) making in-roads into southern and eastern Faerūn from the Utter East since Bhaal's fall, so for me, I'll go with that as an explanation. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2012 : 22:24:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
There was, at one point, a demonic invasion of Celestia, during which time Tyr gave up his godhood, granting his powers to Torm and Bahamut, and sacrificed his life to fend of said invasion.
That being said, I believe that event was actually prior to the Spellplague by some time(year or two), though I could be wrong on the date.
I remembering reading about this in the Empyrean Odyssey. I seem to remember the invasion being led by Orcus, actually, but I could be wrong. I thought Tyr was actually killed instead of willingly sacrificing himself, but maybe he did. I think it was -just- after the Spellplague, same year and everything. That's the way it was in the book at least. Mystra was killed at the very end of book 2, and at the end of book 3 was the demonic invasion.
(I don't remember if it actually said it was Orcus in the novels, but I read somewhere that it was). |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2012 : 22:29:35
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
There was, at one point, a demonic invasion of Celestia, during which time Tyr gave up his godhood, granting his powers to Torm and Bahamut, and sacrificed his life to fend of said invasion.
That being said, I believe that event was actually prior to the Spellplague by some time(year or two), though I could be wrong on the date.
I remembering reading about this in the Empyrean Odyssey. I seem to remember the invasion being led by Orcus, actually, but I could be wrong. I thought Tyr was actually killed instead of willingly sacrificing himself, but maybe he did. I think it was -just- after the Spellplague, same year and everything. That's the way it was in the book at least. Mystra was killed at the very end of book 2, and at the end of book 3 was the demonic invasion.
(I don't remember if it actually said it was Orcus in the novels, but I read somewhere that it was).
Oh, he was killed in battle, but it was still a willing sacrifice. That's why he gave up his godhood to begin with; killing Helm made him feel unworthy of his role. Dying in battle against the horde of demons was his redemption. He had no intention of surviving that fight.
And I guess I was wrong about the date. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2012 : 22:48:42
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| Oh, I see, okay, that makes sense. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2012 : 23:47:47
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| To answer sleyvas's question about BG:DA, yes, there is a character by that name in the game (actually in DA2) and yes, he's a lizardman chieftain. He's one of the minions of the Vampire Lord who took over the Onyx Tower after Eldreth was defeated in the first DA game. You have to defeat him to get one of the four artifacts that are used to reach the elemental planes in later quests. Both games are about someone using the Onyx Tower to rule over the Baldur's Gate area- in the first it's a fallen knight, and in the second, the Zhentarim get invovlved, working for the vampire. Loads of fun! |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
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My stories:
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Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 00:45:35
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Oh, I see, okay, that makes sense.
It's one of the reasons that, much as I'll complain about Helm's death, I'm perfectly ok with Tyr's. It's more inline with his personality, and also makes literary sense as a passing the torch to Torm.
Anyway, on topic. Reason I brought up the demonic invasion in question was- why would demons be invading Celestia? other than that just being what demons do. What's there to draw them? What're they after? Not that demons need much motivation to destroy, but what if they were trying to get to Bhaal? Or, more to the point, what if whoever let them in, or whoever sent them, was trying to get to Bhaal. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4253 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 01:00:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Oh, I see, okay, that makes sense.
It's one of the reasons that, much as I'll complain about Helm's death, I'm perfectly ok with Tyr's. It's more inline with his personality, and also makes literary sense as a passing the torch to Torm.
Anyway, on topic. Reason I brought up the demonic invasion in question was- why would demons be invading Celestia? other than that just being what demons do. What's there to draw them? What're they after? Not that demons need much motivation to destroy, but what if they were trying to get to Bhaal? Or, more to the point, what if whoever let them in, or whoever sent them, was trying to get to Bhaal.
Godlings come and go...Bhaal is a god from a single world (that we are aware of) and the Outer Planes (via the Astral) touch on countless worlds. Demons want to destroy heaven because "Good" tastes good.  |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 01:13:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Oh, I see, okay, that makes sense.
It's one of the reasons that, much as I'll complain about Helm's death, I'm perfectly ok with Tyr's. It's more inline with his personality, and also makes literary sense as a passing the torch to Torm.
Anyway, on topic. Reason I brought up the demonic invasion in question was- why would demons be invading Celestia? other than that just being what demons do. What's there to draw them? What're they after? Not that demons need much motivation to destroy, but what if they were trying to get to Bhaal? Or, more to the point, what if whoever let them in, or whoever sent them, was trying to get to Bhaal.
Godlings come and go...Bhaal is a god from a single world (that we are aware of) and the Outer Planes (via the Astral) touch on countless worlds. Demons want to destroy heaven because "Good" tastes good.
Demons aren't great schemers, with exceptions that can be counted on one hand, but they make excellent pawns.
Someone who wanted to get Bhaal out- not necessarily free him, just get him out of Celestia- would only have to point demons in the right direction, and slip out with Bhaal's essence under cover of the chaotic battle that was distracting everyone's attention. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4253 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 02:57:08
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I would gladly agree with you. The demons, already liking to destroy good things (especially Lawful Good things) wouldn't need much motivation to attack...only the means to do so, which is usually beyond them.
I'm not familiar with the novels...how did the demons even gain access to Mount Celestia? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 03:12:25
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@CoA: that is a good question, and I actually didn't know Bhaal was imprisoned there, but you could be right, though aren't demons too selfish to want to rescue another demon, even if that demon is a god?
I don't remember how the demons gained access (my memory sucks sometimes). |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 03:24:21
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I haven't read the novels, myself, though I might have to now as this is giving me some ideas. This is all conjecture on my part.
My theory isn't that the demons themselves were trying to free Bhaal- if they were, it would only be to consume him, as that's all demons do- but that someone else, perhaps Bane, perhaps an agent of Baator, or some other dark entity, roused the demons and pointed them in the right direction, gave them some method of slipping into Celestia, knowing they'd be defeated but would create enough of a distraction to allow them to make off with Bhaal's essence and escape notice in the confusion.
For what purpose? Well, just imagine all the things you can do with even a sliver of a god's divinity. The possibilities are endless as to motivation. Perhaps someone plotting against Cyric wishes to reinstate Bhaal as the god of murder once Cyric is dealt with, perhaps someone with a score to settle against Bhaal wanted a little personal justice of their own. Perhaps they, like the demons, were simply hungry.
It also raises the question as to why Torm and Bahamut haven't noticed yet- maybe Bhaal's captured essence was replaced with a decoy that could fool a god if not inspected properly, or perhaps they have noticed and are simply keeping a lid on it because they don't want the culprit to know that they know, and are waiting for whoever it was to make their move.
Of course, it's possible the attack was simply an attack and wasn't meant to cover anything, and that Bhaal's essence is right where it's been for the last century and a half. But the possibility of it being stolen and the implications there of are...interesting, to say the least. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 03:32:51
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Empyrean Odyssey features Aliiza from War of the Spider Queen, so it's kind of a follow-up series. The first one took awhile to get going, but I liked the second and third one.
As for the gods not noticing, that is a good question. I know they were having their own struggles amongst each other (not physically fighting, but there was conflict), and the Spellplague had recently happened, so they were still reeling from that, and things were unstable. It probably made things easier for Orcus and his fellow fiends to enter Celestia. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 03:45:30
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If it was Orcus- need to confirm that- then I could see certain implications. He's on the short list of demons who can actually put a plot together, and killing gods is a specialty of his.
I can think of a few reasons why the Prince of the Undead might want to get his hands on the essence of the former god of murder- technically speaking, Bhaal was god of death- the moment life left the body. Orcus' motivations in 4e are primarily about gaining control and dominion over death itself. A dead god might factor into that, some how.
Still, he's just one possibility out of several, and he'd be loathe to waste an invasion force on Celestia when he's engaged with Demogorgon and Graz'zt. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 03:49:05
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I could be wrong, but I seem to remember it being him. You'd know more about the comings and goings of demons than I would  . But whenever the death or invasion of Celestia is brought up, I think of Orcus, so unless I completely missed something--which is possible--I want to say it was him. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 03:59:35
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I could be wrong, but I seem to remember it being him. You'd know more about the comings and goings of demons than I would . But whenever the death or invasion of Celestia is brought up, I think of Orcus, so unless I completely missed something--which is possible--I want to say it was him.
Keep your friends close and your enemies closer, as they say.
I'll look into it though most of the sources(second hand) I've seen on the invasion of Celestia only mention a large force of demons without specifying their patron. Which isn't unusually- not all demons bow to a demon lord and not all layers of the abyss have been claimed by a prince. Demons often act independently- it is their nature to swarm and destroy.
On the flip side, most 4e info on Orcus relates to his conflict with the Raven Queen- 4e core deity of death. This is one of the instances where I agree that there should be ore setting specific information in 4e as the Raven Queen doesn't analogue well with any one Forgotten Realms deity. She's mostly a female version of Kelemvor, but also has shades of Shar and Auruil(I'm probably spelling that wrong- the cold/winter/ice deity.)) |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 04:03:50
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If you find it is someone other than Orcus, let me know.
I've read a few core D&D books that came out within the last couple years, mostly dealing the Abyssal Plague, so I know of the Raven Queen and Melora. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 08:06:13
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Bhaal was lawful evil and dwelt in Tartarus/Gehenna. I don't think demons would want to rescue him...although that was before the Forgotten Realms got their own cosmology.
The Demon invasion just seemed like a dramatic event that could occur when there was chaos in Celestia and they took their chance. Demons don't need a reason or plan, they are chaos and evil incarnate = P |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 10:03:33
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"Rescue" is a loaded term, I suppose. Capture is more in line with what I'm thinking assuming the demons had any intent towards Bhaal of their own. The average demon thinks of nothing more than smashing and tearing, but the Princes have plots and schemes.
What I'm really thinking is that someone else of a less chaotic stupid alignment set the demons on Celestia- likely without the demons even realizing they were being manipulated- and used the invasion to cover their tracts. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Sandro
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
266 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 22:04:19
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
The Demon invasion just seemed like a dramatic event that could occur when there was chaos in Celestia and they took their chance. Demons don't need a reason or plan, they are chaos and evil incarnate/
I think that if there's one thing that Ed's taught us over the years, it's that there's no such thing as coincidence in the Forgotten Realms  |
"Gods, little fishes, and spells to turn the one to the other," Mordenkainen sighed. "It's started already..." |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 11:39:10
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ASIDE: Sandro is your name taken from the video game Heroes of Might and Magic?
I stand by the demonic invasion not being a plot. I don't think events have to be orchestrated by some mastermind. Ed might like grand schemes and reasons behind everything but I find that unrealistic. Some things just happen for no reason...
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 20:13:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
To answer sleyvas's question about BG:DA, yes, there is a character by that name in the game (actually in DA2) and yes, he's a lizardman chieftain. He's one of the minions of the Vampire Lord who took over the Onyx Tower after Eldreth was defeated in the first DA game. You have to defeat him to get one of the four artifacts that are used to reach the elemental planes in later quests. Both games are about someone using the Onyx Tower to rule over the Baldur's Gate area- in the first it's a fallen knight, and in the second, the Zhentarim get invovlved, working for the vampire. Loads of fun!
I wonder if that was when I blacked out after drinking all that tequila and playing with that wand of polymorphing? Might I have polymorphed one of my simulacrum as a lark? All I gotta say is the 24th shot of tequila just really hits you like a wrecking ball.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Topic |
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Bhaal's essence in Mount Celestia? Spellplague
