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ksu_bond
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
214 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Aug 2013 : 22:50:30
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I do agree with the CoA on one point,I don't see having Asmodeus present in the Realms as a bad thing or even out of place. After all, wizards have been interacting with the Lower Planes throughout the history of the Realms so obviously the people of Toril would be aware of Asmodeus. In addition, the wizards (and Mystra) have made several unannounced and disruptive incursions into Hell so this would undoubtedly have made the Realms known to Asmodeus. So having an active Cult of Asmodeus does make sense, even his interest in holding Azuth's divinity makes sense for reasons already elaborated.
However, had Asmodeus wanted to ascend to the divine why did he just get the itch to do so after 1385 DR, when he's had eon's to do so previously...it's not as though Azuth was the first deity he could have taken/stolen divinity from... |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1885 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2013 : 23:32:54
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At CoA: Yeah we do all seem to be beating up on you and your favorite entity  but I hope you understand it's not on purpose (or anything personal). You have to admit, the boosting of Asmo from a (basically) non-deity to a greater power was essentially a poor attempt to force core DnD on the FR setting (and I don't think it's a coincidence that it happened a year after Golarian).
Many of your points have a certain logic to them so I don't discount your opinions out of hand...I just think it's obvious what WotC was doing when they (suddenly) made him a greater deity (which is NOT logical IMO...though making Cyric a greater deity made even less sense).
For the most part, despite the 'uncertain narrator' and myth/legend surrounding Asmo's early edition write-ups, no where that I can remember was he ever described as anything but a VERY powerful devil lord so his ascension was jarring to most of us (to say the least).
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My opinions on what should happen from here:
1) I mostly prefer the idea of Asmo and the (newly risen) Mystra coming to terms that benefit both without placing either one under the heel of the other. Basically, allow Asmo to 'save face' w/o appearing weak while still allowing Mystra to regain the divine energy he stole.
2) Basically force Asmo to give up his divinity as a result of various powerful factions (with Ao's 'blessing') moving against him but do it in such a way that the remaining devil lords become even MORE firmly under his heel...because it what Asmo planned all along (or so he says, it really doesn't matter in the end).
3) Perhaps allow Asmo to retain SOME of his divinity (as a lesser power) so he doesn't 'lose face' as I mentioned above. His sphere of influence would remain sin, of course. This would allow him to retain enough power to put Mephi and others firmly in their place. Perhaps in this option, Gargauth could be defeated (but I don't like that option as I firmly detest deicide).
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My opinions mostly center on a personal desire for the Realms to be remade (back) into Ed's image...I hate what WotC has done to the setting he shared with the world. In the end, detractors can always make the Realms whatever they want for their homebrew (mine if quite different from canon Realms tbh). |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2013 : 04:08:28
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things to bring up
When mystra did go to avernus, it was creating rifts left and right, that would have left the powers of hell walk right into toril.
If the queen of alagrond, is the new mystra, then that would rock . Although folks use to complain that harpers and mystra messed around to much in the realms, if we can't have the blood war, lets have the magic vs hell war.
Azuth does not need to come back , he got gobbled up and is dead, and his role his pretty generic as far as godly cliches go, and can be replaced with something new that does the same thing.
Power is Power why would the lord of hell not want more power?
To the old question of , well he is god of sin and that does not fit the realms and all that. He was the lord of sin , when he ruled hell. So mortals calling him the god of sin, is just fine for him, would fit just fine that such a thing is fake as a portfolio, would just be another lie. |
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ksu_bond
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
214 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2013 : 05:41:45
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Power is Power...however as a divinity he would now once again have a superior...which Asmodeus hasn't had in a day or so...
I'm not saying he wouldn't be into such a thing, I just thought it odd that after all this time of finding ways to increase his power and hold over Hell, sometime after 1385 DR he just decides "whelp I guess I should off a weak deity to boost my power, plus then I would be a GOD!!! BWAHAHHAHA!!!" Personally, I just find the situation to be rather...convoluted and thinly stretched, without much lore/background given as why now? why Azuth? (Yes, I understand the Mystra thing, but it is not as though she is the only deity to ever have the audacity to slight the Lord of Sin) |
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jerrod
Learned Scribe
157 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2013 : 06:44:56
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| What many haven't considered is that as lord of hell asmodeus was not truly allowed to exercise authority in toril.even foreign gods couldn't without ao giving them permission.NOW asmodeus has just as much right to promote his worship as mystra does and as long as he does it sinfully,the fearunian pantheon can deny him his due.it's now like haven't a roommate a can't evict because he is on the lease agreement. |
I haven't been here in years but I used to be DARKFLAME MILLITHOR(DROW ARCHMAGE of wildmagic |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2013 : 06:48:06
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| He may have someone above him , as a god, but in all honesty, it is rather a thin bit, AO doesn't do much as far as things go. An the pact primeevil, is between lesser powers, not AO. |
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ksu_bond
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
214 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2013 : 07:45:33
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That is a good point Jerrod, i hadn't really thought of it in that way...so all that is needed now is a bit of back story of why now?
This should give me something to mull over for a bit... |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2013 : 07:47:05
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| but what pantheon , devils and demons really don't fit within that paradim, |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2013 : 07:53:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
Asmodeus won't be a god in 5e, and I'll cite 2 possible reasons for that.
1) Paul Kemp's "Cycle of Night" trilogy details Mephistopheles's plot to overthrow Asmodeus. The released excerpts from "The Godborn" indicate that Mephistopheles has become increasingly desperate to gain more power and see his plans come to fruition. His plots have somehow become intertwined with the plan Mask had in place to return from the dead.
2) Erin Evans's "Brimstone Angels" books show Princess Glasya scheming against her father, and the devils coming into conflict with the Abolethic Sovereignty over control of Neverwinter.
The novels are setting it up for Asmodeus to go down in 5e. Whether he gets screwed over by Mystra, Mask, Glasya, Mephistopheles, or the Abolethic Sovereignty, I don't know. But much like Netheril, he has gathered too many powerful enemies, and his downfall is imminent.
1) He can snap his fingers and turn good old Metty , into a slug like the last upstart.
2)This is the lord of hell, who during the time that helm got killed, sent the host of hell to smash against the House of Trinity during the gossmer plane trilogy |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2013 : 16:37:09
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I don't really like the idea of considering Asmodeus to be an "interloper" deity or just a regular devil. I -do- like the deeper (and fairly recently added) history for him in the Realms, suggesting that he was/is an ancient celestial power ejected from the upper planes. Honestly, I like Asmodeus about a million times better than Cyric - because Asmodeus doesn't feel forced into the setting where Cyric does... and has never really found a good fit.
People don't like "Sin" as a portfolio, but the truth is that sin just generally means "violating God's will" which can mean many things. Anything from gluttony to murder, really. There's also the core D&D "Pact Primeval" which may or may not be true for the Realms, because it's tied to Asmodeus's fall from grace rather than "he was an ancient deity" per the Realms.
Personally, I'd prefer if they kept Asmodeus, and found a way to permanently get rid of Cyric.
I wonder if they could put a twist on things such that "The Sundering" reveals that Cyric never was actually a god but it was all the work of Asmodeus doing some extremely clever things. If Asmodeus is in fact an ancient deity from the much-earlier Realms, perhaps a pre-Netheril human deity, it would make sense that he has been working for millenia to regain his former power. Originally, Asmodeus may have been a lesser celestial power who fought against powers of the Far Realm. In fighting the corrupting influence of the Far Realm, it subtly changed him and the minor celestials who he commanded. Asmodeus falls from grace, twisted by evil and corruption, and considers the gods to be hypocrites and "sinners" against their own moral code. So he embraces sin, and encourages it (anything that goes against the gods in general), which is the final step that turns him from a celestial into a devil.
Eventually, Cyric comes along. Cyric the mortal has no respect for anything (certainly not any gods), and it's pretty clear that he is a dupe for several powers during the early ToT. Asmodeus sees Cyric as a perfect means for regaining his own divinity, and subtly influences him (through whispers, encouragement, convincing him of his own greatness, etc). Truthfully, he sees Cyric the deity as an even bigger tool to use, and Asmodeus feels totally justified in helping Cyric and Shar kill Mystra. After all, Midnight seriously "sinned" against her own portfolio throughout the whole Mystra-denies-Cyric-magic and Kelemvor-loves-Mystra nonsense. But none of the gods saw Asmodeus's subtle influence on Cyric -until- the moment that Mystra is slain, Savras is taken out, and Azuth is taken by Asmodeus. Cyric gets blamed for everything, and Asmodeus finally regains his divine status.
Why Azuth? Well, Azuth was a lesser power and yet still a servant of Mystra. Asmodeus was once a lesser power, and a servant of some greater power during his time as a deity. Taking Azuth down would have perhaps seemed ironic and a fitting punishment for Mystra. Savras simply had to die, to prevent the gods from learning about his complex plans.
This would also explain why the (new) Triad was so... distant in 4E, and all sorts of weird interactions were happening in the heavens. If Asmodeus could use Cyric as a pawn, and had been subtly influencing the dupe ever since the Time of Troubles, many/most of the gods couldn't be sure who among them could be trusted. Cyric gets locked up because he's essentially the village idiot who has been duped from day one.
It's even possible that Asmodeus tricked Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul into thinking that the Tablets of Fate were much more than they really were. Asmodeus could have started the whole thing, as a very long-planned form of revenge for his ouster from the celestial planes. Let's be honest, Cyric has never really worked out as a "smart" or clever evil deity. It would make far more sense to have Asmodeus as a mastermind behind everything bad that's happened since the Time of Troubles.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 04 Aug 2013 16:48:19 |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2013 : 17:04:28
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I do think you are giving Asmodeus way too much credit by coming up with that idea Therise. 
Yes Cyric is an annoying complete failure as a god. Yes i would like to see him gone too, but despite my dislike for him as a divine entity he is out of the league for Asmodeus to play, if such had been the case, he would have also fooled AO and THAT is hard to believe. Asmodeus is a smart fiend, but he is not the most intelligent being in Realmspace  |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2013 : 17:21:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
I do think you are giving Asmodeus way too much credit by coming up with that idea Therise.
Yes Cyric is an annoying complete failure as a god. Yes i would like to see him gone too, but despite my dislike for him as a divine entity he is out of the league for Asmodeus to play, if such had been the case, he would have also fooled AO and THAT is hard to believe. Asmodeus is a smart fiend, but he is not the most intelligent being in Realmspace
Perhaps, but to be honest I really don't like AO all that much either. The beauty of this isn't so much that Asmodeus had to be the most intelligent, but more that he understood AO's rules extremely well (i.e. the "fine print" so to speak) and decided to play out the long game toward recovering his divinity.
And from Asmodeus's perpective, he doesn't really have to fool anybody as long as he encourages people (or deities) to do things that ultimately support his own personal agenda. Bane the Tyrant wants ultimate power, so a little word here and there about how the Tablets could get him that power...
Cyric is even easier, as Mask knew. Give Cyric a sword of great power, and he will use it to gain power. Asmodeus whispers to Cyric that he can become a God, and it's true, he could. Asmodeus keeps whispering to Cyric that he can take AO's power, but first must get rid of the other gods who stand in his way... 
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2013 : 17:25:44
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| I would like to avoid making Asmodeus the new Shar. Bane, Myrkul and Bhaal made there own plan and failed on their own merits. He is an addition to the pantheon, but he shouldn't be highlighted as a mastermind capable of manipulating all of the other deities. Asmodeus corrupts mortals who have something to gain by making deals and pacts with him. After however many millennia of screwing over everyone that makes a deal with him, one would think that the other deities won't be interested in making deals with him or getting advice from him. |
Tarlyn Embersun |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2013 : 17:33:20
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Stealing the Tablets was a cooperation of Bane and Myrkul, i do not think Asmodeus can play two gods at once as he was a fiendish overlord when it happened and not a divine being. There is that differing level of power and fooling a god can only be done by another god with hope of not being found out.
We have to disagree on that approach but wholeheartly i agree that Cyric needs to go, permanently |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2013 : 17:42:43
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But gods can be easily manipulated. I believe it was Oghma that pointed-out their weakness (to Mystra/Midnight); they are blinded by their own portfolios. They view everything in terms of them, and therefor if you understand that, you know precisely what 'buttons to push'.
If anyone is capable of that, I would think it would be the king of all manipulators, Asmodeus. He is far older then most of 'the gods'. You don't stay in charge that long without being damn good at what you do.
EDIT: in fact... I believe it was in the 3e Fiend Folio where the story about how he engineered the creation of The Hells by tricking the gods into giving him that power. Seems to me, he's been at this a LOOOOOONG time. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Aug 2013 17:45:39 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2013 : 17:51:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
Stealing the Tablets was a cooperation of Bane and Myrkul, i do not think Asmodeus can play two gods at once as he was a fiendish overlord when it happened and not a divine being. There is that differing level of power and fooling a god can only be done by another god with hope of not being found out.
We have to disagree on that approach but wholeheartly i agree that Cyric needs to go, permanently
I'm willing to accept -almost- anything that gets rid of Cyric permanently. Maybe Asmodeus planted some clues for Bane to find? Perhaps the information obtained was even true, as far as he knew?
The only reason I'm suggesting this possibility is because Asmodeus technically is older than Bane (i.e. he was around in the "primeval" deity period as a celestial of some kind), and he could therefore pretend that he knew certain things about the Tablets. Manipulation doesn't always have to be direct, or involve directly offering someone something (or information) that they want; and it also doesn't require lying outright.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2013 : 19:42:34
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quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer2)This is the lord of hell, who during the time that helm got killed, sent the host of hell to smash against the House of Trinity during the gossmer plane trilogy
I am pretty sure that this was an abyssal host, no devils involved
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Honestly, I like Asmodeus about a million times better than Cyric - because Asmodeus doesn't feel forced into the setting where Cyric does..
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Personally, I'd prefer if they kept Asmodeus, and found a way to permanently get rid of Cyric.
Since Denning is writing one of the Sundering Novels and Malik is a main character, I have all confidence that Cyric will whether the Sundering just fine.
quote:
Originally posted by TheriseLet's be honest, Cyric has never really worked out as a "smart" or clever evil deity.
Oh yeah? And the Dark Three were in all their disgracing novel appearances?  |
Edited by - Mirtek on 04 Aug 2013 19:45:54 |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2013 : 19:49:24
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Asmodeus is older but manipulation only gets you so far before you turn everyone else against you and pantheons of angry gods against you is something that Asmodeus canīt hope to get out of in one piece. I say again, he is not the smartest being out there and too much credit given to him
Markus, you can "push the buttons" with the gods but as soon as they see through it, your done for, no god likes to be played. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1885 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2013 : 19:51:45
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quote:
But gods can be easily manipulated. I believe it was Oghma that pointed-out their weakness (to Mystra/Midnight); they are blinded by their own portfolios. They view everything in terms of them, and therefor if you understand that, you know precisely what 'buttons to push'.
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I never really cared for that concept...I prefer my gods not be so limited in scope and that one just seemed like grade A factory cheeeeeese to me.
I too am on board with getting rid of Cyric (but then I have a BIG problem with a mortal becoming a greater god at a finger snap). He's also a colossal idiot and again I don't like my gods so limited.
As to comments referring to Asmo's manipulation of the gods. While I agree that the gods should know he's a manipulator and should be wary of him...as a TRUE MASTER at what he does it seems to me that he should know to 'play nice' (i.e. give the gods what they want/need) at times, thereby making him self useful to them over centuries of work so that the gods generally look at him as someone they 'need' despite the risks. He becomes the 'necessary evil' and 'the devil you know' and may seem like the lesser of two evils at times.
I'm just saying that the gods all lay their plans and play their games and Asmo (whether he's a deity or not) does the same...and tends to be better than most. Heck, even the celestial host sees him as a 'necessary evil' as they worked to keep the Blood War ongoing for millennia. Seems to me that they are going to have to throw him a bone now and again and hope for the best. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1885 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2013 : 20:05:19
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@LB: Quite true there. The question becomes just how did he 'pull off' this theoretical manipulation of the gods. Some of the best stories involve manipulation from behind the scenes...the gods may not have even realized he was pulling the strings. For a canon example, think of the Twisted Rune in Calimshan. They have managed to pull the strings for centuries without getting caught. Asmo should be many grades above them methinks.
Having said that though...this notion of Asmo tricking the gods into creating the Hells is a bit far fetched IMO. I prefer to think of the Hells (and other 'alignment' planes) as a natural force of the multiverse. Asmo's banishment there just gave him a new place to seed and grow his power. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2013 : 20:25:41
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
As to comments referring to Asmo's manipulation of the gods. While I agree that the gods should know he's a manipulator and should be wary of him...as a TRUE MASTER at what he does it seems to me that he should know to 'play nice' (i.e. give the gods what they want/need) at times, thereby making him self useful to them over centuries of work so that the gods generally look at him as someone they 'need' despite the risks. He becomes the 'necessary evil' and 'the devil you know' and may seem like the lesser of two evils at times.
Lots of the deities are TRUE MASTERS at manipulation. It is hardly something Asmodeus has a monopoly on(I hear Mask and Shar are both fairly adept at it to name two). Also, why would Asmodeus be anywhere near first choice for a deity to barter with? If hypothetically Tyr needs something that his powers as a greater god, divine servants and followers are not enough to accomplish. Why not approach Torm, Illmater, Helm, Lathander, Selune or any other of a number of gods that don't have a reputation for knifing allies in the back? Even between the evil deities, Asmodeus would be low on the my list. Now for a mortal, Asmodeus has plenty to offer and he offers it "cheaply"(at least until the catch comes along) compared to other divine powers. |
Tarlyn Embersun |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2013 : 20:30:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Tarlyn
Lots of the deities are TRUE MASTERS at manipulation. It is hardly something Asmodeus has a monopoly on(I hear Mask
Mask? The guy whose attempt at manipulation accidently demoted himself from intermediate to lesser power while everything was still going smoothly as planned (the plan was just so bad)? |
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2013 : 20:46:36
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| I don't know, I would say in about 2-3 months Mask might be looking a great deal smarter than after that particular debacle. |
Tarlyn Embersun |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3823 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2013 : 21:01:59
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quote:
Mask? The guy whose attempt at manipulation accidently demoted himself from intermediate to lesser power while everything was still going smoothly as planned (the plan was just so bad)?
That was a case of bad portrayal: Mask is supposed to be a deceiver. Luckily, WotC explicitly said that they won't continue with this kind of stuff (AFAIK).
About Cyric and Asmodeus stuff: I don't like the former, but since the 5e Realms are supposed to be inclusive and there are people who enjoy lore about him, I really can't see why he should be removed.
I'm fine with Asmodeus being a god, but honestly I don't care about what he is, as long as he and his influence on the FR are still present. Therise's idea about his ascension sounds really cool, however I wouldn't enjoy to see it implemented like that for a single reason: it'd make his rivals and foes (both fiendish and divine) look like a bunch of blind idiots, all of whom just stood and watched while Asmodeus did w/e he pleased.
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 04 Aug 2013 21:07:29 |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1885 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2013 : 21:06:43
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Point is well taken Tarlyn, I'm just saying that in the halls of power an unbelievably old entity such as Asmo would place himself in a position to be the only guy to go to for certain things. And what if many of the gods don't go to him but instead Asmo sits behind the scenes pulling a few strings (as Im sure all gods do)...it's just that he tends to be better at it than most. I'm not saying he's the BEST (Shar may have him beat, for instance), I'm just saying he is REALLY good at manipulation (and possibly does so in secret most of the time).
Yes Mask looked a bit foolish in the past...this all goes back to my problem with how the gods have been portrayed in the novels...as a bunch of fools who can't seem to walk and chew gum at the same time. It rather sickens me as I just prefer the gods to be 'larger than life' although not perfect by any means. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
Edited by - The Arcanamach on 04 Aug 2013 21:10:44 |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2013 : 21:06:59
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I don't know , all these new kids today want edgy and something more video game like.
Abberations and the far realm while cool, did not reach out far enough. So we are going to have the lord of hell upsert Lord AO, and become Lord A, just so we can save on the type set cost of printing that extra letter. |
Edited by - silverwolfer on 04 Aug 2013 21:10:59 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2013 : 03:51:47
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| Does that mean we will have to refer to the 9th layer of Hell simply as the 'A-Hole' from now on? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2013 : 03:58:12
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Having said that though...this notion of Asmo tricking the gods into creating the Hells is a bit far fetched IMO. I prefer to think of the Hells (and other 'alignment' planes) as a natural force of the multiverse. Asmo's banishment there just gave him a new place to seed and grow his power.
It's probably worth noting that the 9 Hells in their original form predate both the gods and the arrival of Asmodeus there (in both 2e and 3e sources). |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2013 : 03:58:29
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| Well remember, elimister was james bond, and Mystra was M |
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Mystra's Return and the Apotheosis of Asmodeus
