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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 19:02:18
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I'm going to say something and I don't mean to take away from what anyone else might like about the setting and how it has evolved, but Asmodeus as a major deity of evil in the Realms feels very tacked on to me. Not only was it borrowed from D&D core, but I have to admit, given that Pathfinder grabbed it and ran with it, and used Asmodeus very well, it feels very much like a "me too" thing to hang onto Asmodeus not just as an arch-devil, but a major deity of evil.
Asmodeus should still exist, and be the master of devilkind, ruler of the Nine Hells. But pushing him and his church as being as influential and widespread as, say, Bane is a mistake, to my way of thinking. With the gods dialing back their involvement, it would be nice to see this not even be a major thing, so long as he's still around for anyone that wants to use him.
almost exactly my thoughts on the matter. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 19:52:15
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quote:
Originally posted by phranctoast
quote:
Mystra has been dead for over a century, and to the best of my knowledge still only currently exists as a vestige of a dead deity. I think the writing is on the wall, and that she will return; but there is no way realistically that she's going to jump from being dead and a few years later (at most) fighting her way through the Nine Hells to make Asmodeus grovel before her and return Azuth.
She is a major deity, and at best wouldn't Azuths godhood only make Asmodeus a demigod? Maybe not fighting through the nine hells, but summon and bind him, then kill him at will. Gods can be summoned as proven with ZT and Bane, and devils most certainly can be.
She was a greater deity. She died and is now a vestige - the remnant of a dead deity. That makes her as strong as... what? A powerful devil if we want to be charitable?
As CoA pointed out in Elminster in Hell Mystra - at the pinnacle of her power - was loathed to face Asmodeus on his home turf. Even if she returns to full divinity and regains everything she lost instantaneously, Asmodeus is now stronger than he was when she went up against him in the past.
There is no way, if we want to be consistent with the dealings Mystra had with Asmodeus in the past, that she's basically going to click her fingers and get Azuth back without paying a price. She might attempt to do things to give her more leverage in a negotiation with Asmodeus, but that would be just to avoid getting utterly reamed by him. At the end of the day though, simply because of who he is, any deal struck with him is going to favor him more than his opponent.
The one cop out I foresee, and I hope it doesn't happen, is that Mystra is able to insert some loophole in the agreement that she can draw upon to get out of the deal. In other words, somehow Mystra is able to slip one over the eyes of Asmodeus. Again, this would be a Deus ex Machina which draws attention to everything people disliked about the character and her Chosen in the first place. It would be the equivalent of having Asmodeus create and know spells that Mystra simply couldn't understand how to cast despite the fact he used the Weave to create and cast them - AND - gave her copies of the scrolls on which the spell is written. It'd make her look stupid, weak, and ineffectual.
The best solution for both characters is to have them come to an agreement that they can both live with, and both becoming more powerful as a result... perhaps laying the foundation for an alliance with Asmodeus moving forward. She could use him against her other enemies - such as Bane, Cyric, and Shar.
Sure, Asmodeus would become more powerful as a result; but rather the devil on your side become more powerful than the devils who aren't. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12211 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 22:54:39
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quote:
Originally posted by phranctoast
quote:
Mystra has been dead for over a century, and to the best of my knowledge still only currently exists as a vestige of a dead deity. I think the writing is on the wall, and that she will return; but there is no way realistically that she's going to jump from being dead and a few years later (at most) fighting her way through the Nine Hells to make Asmodeus grovel before her and return Azuth.
She is a major deity, and at best wouldn't Azuths godhood only make Asmodeus a demigod? Maybe not fighting through the nine hells, but summon and bind him, then kill him at will. Gods can be summoned as proven with ZT and Bane, and devils most certainly can be.
She WAS a major deity. Now she has problems sitting on the potty without help (and before you explode.... I like Mystra, but I know her current situation, at least to a degree). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12211 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 22:57:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
Asmodeus is another example of poor decisions in 4e. It is not that I do not like Asmodeus it is that his role was already filled. It is one of the objections I had to the new iterations of the realms. It was just not thought out well.
Everything is core was applied with such broad strokes that changes that made little sense were applied everywhere. Asmodeus works great as THE archdevil, and I think he works less well as a divine.
The purpose of devils is too get souls, so what purpose does Asmodeus have in ruling devils when he has access to all the souls he needs? he no longer needs the other devils.
His role as the tempter can be filled by Bane, who offers power, the only thing that might be missing is the *Sell your soul aspect*.
His role as archdevil can still fit any campaign niche that his divinity would fill. He could still have a church, he still influences the mortal realm, and still has all the power of hell. His divinity in fact only makes his rule in hell, unchanging because it is unlikely the other devils could match his power.
I like the direction of the realms now, but there was so much poor thought brought into the 3-->4 changeover that now things need to be done on repair mode. The everything is core zombie walk did a lot more to damage campaign worlds than it did to enhance D&D as a whole I think.
Um, if we needed a devil god to corrupt people.... we had Gargauth the exiled. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 22:59:42
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| Mystra will kick the "#¤%& out of Asmodeus' behind!!! |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 23:03:45
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
Asmodeus is another example of poor decisions in 4e. It is not that I do not like Asmodeus it is that his role was already filled. It is one of the objections I had to the new iterations of the realms. It was just not thought out well.
Everything is core was applied with such broad strokes that changes that made little sense were applied everywhere. Asmodeus works great as THE archdevil, and I think he works less well as a divine.
The purpose of devils is too get souls, so what purpose does Asmodeus have in ruling devils when he has access to all the souls he needs? he no longer needs the other devils.
His role as the tempter can be filled by Bane, who offers power, the only thing that might be missing is the *Sell your soul aspect*.
His role as archdevil can still fit any campaign niche that his divinity would fill. He could still have a church, he still influences the mortal realm, and still has all the power of hell. His divinity in fact only makes his rule in hell, unchanging because it is unlikely the other devils could match his power.
I like the direction of the realms now, but there was so much poor thought brought into the 3-->4 changeover that now things need to be done on repair mode. The everything is core zombie walk did a lot more to damage campaign worlds than it did to enhance D&D as a whole I think.
Um, if we needed a devil god to corrupt people.... we had Gargauth the exiled.
Given the choice between the King of Hell and one of his rejects, I'll take the King of Hell, thank you very much. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4265 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 23:03:49
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Mystra being loathe to intervene is not the same as not being able to do something. She could have not wanted to go to hell because that would allow Asmodeus a tit-for-tat response in an area that he perhaps wanted to intervene while she was busy in hell...
I've never thought that Asmodeus could stand toe-to-toe with even a Lesser God...but that his power actually was determined more by his position/political power than his physical/magical might. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 23:19:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Mystra being loathe to intervene is not the same as not being able to do something. She could have not wanted to go to hell because that would allow Asmodeus a tit-for-tat response in an area that he perhaps wanted to intervene while she was busy in hell...
I've never thought that Asmodeus could stand toe-to-toe with even a Lesser God...but that his power actually was determined more by his position/political power than his physical/magical might.
While I disagree with your interpretation of the lore regarding Asmodeus- most of it seemed to imply, to me at least, that he rivaled most of the gods below greater level in power- it's a moot point because at the moment, he is a greater deity in his own right.
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"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 08:17:19
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@CoA: While i do agree with you that they should keep Asmo around, my 2copper on the matter is that prior to his ascension to deity status, I do believe he could have faced any lesser deity or exarch and win. Before becoming the supreme ruler of the baatezu, he fought countless demons for the gods(depending on which source you're on) Moreover in my humble opinion I do believe Dalor Darden also has a point, Asmo was in a very advantageous political position in terms of what he was doing, killing Asmo at the time would have been disastrous to the precarious perches of power. The Nine Hells were like a deterrent to be evil, and a source of power for those turning away from good. If the ruler of Nessus had fallen, brutal wars between rivalling archdevils not to mention the invasion of Baator from demons in the Abyss(trillions of 'em) would have destabilized the power structure of the Realms.
As stated before in sourcebooks, even the "benevolent" "goodly gods" wanted the Blood War to continue no matter the cost as a win by either side made the invasion of the Upper Planes a sure reality. Asmo alive, he could not care less about the Blood War, but the status quo was maintained, without him including now or in 5e, would cause catastrophic damage to the planes as a whole. |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 11:20:23
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Why go to Hell at all? If Asmodeus wants to play at being god of wizardry that is fine. All Mystra has to do is demand that Asmodeus return the power, or fulfill his divine role. If Asmodeus agrees to do Azuth's job that will keep him occupied(it was a full time job for Azuth) and allow his many enemies among the archdevils to make him look weak and make a play for his throne. Then he is forced to give up the power by the gods collectively, similar to how Midnight was forced to allow Cyric to use magic. Mystra can lend the aid of some of her loyal forces to Levistus or Mephistopheles etc. While Asmodeus is pulling double duty as god of wizardry and lord of the nine, he will be hard pressed to maintain both. Leaving him with the option of being exiled like Gargauth before him, or giving up his duties as god of wizardry. Also, rather than helping Asmodeus corrupt mortals, Mystra instead helps devils kill devils which is just plain beneficial for the Realms deities in general and the devils would be doing that anyway.
The only story about a deal with Asmodeus that I can remember is the story of Tyr's fall and I don't see a lot of scribes praising that story.
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 11:34:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Mystra being loathe to intervene is not the same as not being able to do something. She could have not wanted to go to hell because that would allow Asmodeus a tit-for-tat response in an area that he perhaps wanted to intervene while she was busy in hell...
I've never thought that Asmodeus could stand toe-to-toe with even a Lesser God...but that his power actually was determined more by his position/political power than his physical/magical might.
While I disagree with your interpretation of the lore regarding Asmodeus- most of it seemed to imply, to me at least, that he rivaled most of the gods below greater level in power- it's a moot point because at the moment, he is a greater deity in his own right.
It varies by edition and source, and not all authors/designers have always been either aware of the various sources or have simply chosen to write/design according to those which they prefer the take of.
That said, following the presentation in 2e Planescape and in the later 3.x sources (Fiendish Codex:I and II, some of the most detailed and comprehensive sources on the Abyss and the Hells), the implication is that archfiends (specifically the most powerful of them including Hell's Lords of the 9, Abyssal Lords in effective symbiosis with a layer of the Abyss, and entities like the Oinoloth, General of Gehenna, etc have essentially a sort of home field advantage. It's outright stated in both editions of archfiends getting into tiffs with gods and the latter having their clock cleaned when push came to shove if it came down to it on the fiend's native plane. Outside of that native plane however the situation is very much reversed.
Mystra or any other deity trying to invade hell would allow them to cause truly epic damage but it would ultimately be a death wish, either by direct conflict with the archfiend or something akin to sudden mass slaughter of their worshippers till they returned to the political status quo between gods and fiends on the lower planes (instances of which have happened before, and as a consequence largely prevents gods from being involved in fiendish politics and the Blood War). |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 12:13:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Tarlyn
Why go to Hell at all? If Asmodeus wants to play at being god of wizardry that is fine. All Mystra has to do is demand that Asmodeus return the power, or fulfill his divine role. If Asmodeus agrees to do Azuth's job that will keep him occupied(it was a full time job for Azuth) and allow his many enemies among the archdevils to make him look weak and make a play for his throne. Then he is forced to give up the power by the gods collectively, similar to how Midnight was forced to allow Cyric to use magic. Mystra can lend the aid of some of her loyal forces to Levistus or Mephistopheles etc. While Asmodeus is pulling double duty as god of wizardry and lord of the nine, he will be hard pressed to maintain both. Leaving him with the option of being exiled like Gargauth before him, or giving up his duties as god of wizardry. Also, rather than helping Asmodeus corrupt mortals, Mystra instead helps devils kill devils which is just plain beneficial for the Realms deities in general and the devils would be doing that anyway.
The only story about a deal with Asmodeus that I can remember is the story of Tyr's fall and I don't see a lot of scribes praising that story.
Except, he's not the god of wizardry, nor is he playing at being such. He's a god of knowledge, torment, and tyranny. He didn't assume Azuth's portfolio, he simply used his divine spark to regain his own lost divinity.
And before anyone says "what divinity", I'm going to cut you off at the pass- everything written about Asmodeus' origins, every single thing without exception, was written from the perspective of it being an unreliable narrator. Everything was written from the perspective of Asmodeus' origins being shrouded in myth, legend, rumor, and misinformation perpetuated by the Lord of the Nine himself. Nothing was set in stone, nothing was absolute fact.
So 4e coming along and saying that he was a god before falling to hell isn't retconning old lore, it's simply revealing it for what it always said it was- rumor, myth, and misinformation. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 12:36:18
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Asmodeus is not a god of tyranny, sorry to disappoint you. He may be a tyrant but he is not the deity of tyranny.
Lolth is a tyrant, Shar is a tyrant, Cyric is a tyrant, i could go on and yet they are no deities of tyranny.
The god of tyranny is Bane, that is his divine duty. If you honestly think that Asmodeus is going for a powergrab of that status and Bane will just sit idle you will see that his cult will be annihilated when ever it reveals it´s self not only by the forces of good but also by the Church of Bane who are far more powerfull than the "Church" of Asmodeus. Asmodeus can´t win. Even devils flock to Bane and abandon the Nine Hells let alone the fact that the cult that worships Asmodeus does in no way justify his "divine rank" of power 4e claims to have. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 15:01:25
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| aah but the basic 4e lore was never FR lore...... just stuff that fot shoehorned into the realms |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4265 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 19:59:18
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I'll have to say, as others have, that what edition you play determines what power an individual has.
Asmodeus in 1e just doesn't have the grit to stand against anything other than a Demi-God...and even some mortal wizards and clerics can go toe-to-toe with him and at least survive.
Statistics aside, I don't ever recall in any piece of lore that Asmodeus was capable of standing against a god either. The most recent lore that we have regarding the fellow was that he actually gained his current power in the 9 Hells thanks to Pazuzu...and prior to that he was essentially only a very powerful/influential angel of the Upper Planes.
EDIT: I should add, however, that it does say he is responsible for the "end" of a God...but it does not say specifically that he himself did the deed. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 19 Oct 2012 20:19:38 |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 20:16:23
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| Asmodeus as a deity is redundant and he should be removed in 5th edition... I don't think there needs to be any explanation since he was just stuck in there randomly. He overlaps more with Gargauth and Gargauth was a demipower...why would Asmodeus have been a Greater Deity? It made no sense. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 21:47:46
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Asmodeus is a bit redundant with Bane, me thinks. I realize the 4e Asmodeus is different then earlier versions, but I'm just not seeing them both being needed. On the other hand, I think we are going back to a 'more is better' approach where the gods are concerned, so I am sure they'll both be around.
We've always had both and it didn't affect anything - see below.
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I'm going to say something and I don't mean to take away from what anyone else might like about the setting and how it has evolved, but Asmodeus as a major deity of evil in the Realms feels very tacked on to me. Not only was it borrowed from D&D core, but I have to admit, given that Pathfinder grabbed it and ran with it, and used Asmodeus very well, it feels very much like a "me too" thing to hang onto Asmodeus not just as an arch-devil, but a major deity of evil.
Asmodeus should still exist, and be the master of devilkind, ruler of the Nine Hells. But pushing him and his church as being as influential and widespread as, say, Bane is a mistake, to my way of thinking. With the gods dialing back their involvement, it would be nice to see this not even be a major thing, so long as he's still around for anyone that wants to use him.
almost exactly my thoughts on the matter.
Agreed. He never really needed a change in status in 4e - that was a 'core' thing. It was left to individual DMs (and authors) as to how, where, and why he would interfere with mortals on Toril. That needn't have changed in 4e - he was always there, in the background.
I think they tried too hard to promote the 4e core concepts in FR (which is a very old argument now), and they learned their lesson and didn't do the same thing to Eberron. Hopefully we won't be seeing the 'sledgehammer' approach to design ever again.
Asmodeus could easily slip back into the background as he was before, whatever his 'official' status might be in the Outer Planes (and seriously, the point is mortals don't really know a darned thing, and priests, gods, and especially fiends lie all the time). Knowing more about any extra-planer entity downgrades their usefulness, IMO. We don't all need to hop on the "lets be like Golarion" bandwagon.
EDIT: Also completely agree with everything Shemmy said (no big surprise there). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Oct 2012 21:51:24 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 22:10:23
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I just have to ask, how exactly does Asmodeus being a deity (or not) affect any mortal in the Realms? How would they even know or be able to tell the difference, really?
Devils and demons of high power have always been able to grant spells, right? So that's not a big difference.
Devils and demons have lied at various times about almost everything, sometimes even claiming they are deities.
Devils and demons routinely pick up their "dearly departed" souls on the Fugue Plain, just like deities.
Cults always believe they are "in the right" in some form, about something, whether they are or not.
Cults have their own stories and legends, just like the gods.
So... apart from how the higher planes -actually- see Asmodeus, how does it make any difference at all for mortals if he is a deity or "just" a very high-ranking Devil?
Would it make -any- difference to mortals, in any way, if Asmodeus was re-cast as a pretender-deity, just as he and countless other Devil-lords and Demon-lords have always been?
Heck, any "extra" power he might be exhibiting could simply be because he's had Azuth trapped in a choke-hold for 100+ years and has been sucking on his divine energy.
As for the question of redundancy, Asmodeus IMO has been elevated because Cyric is such a massive story-failure. But it wasn't really necessary to elevate Asmodeus, he serves a different purpose anyway. Bane does something completely different and fills a completely different kind of role.
Cyric is the awful that needs to be removed. Eject Cyric permanently after yet another colossal failure, reveal that Asmodeus never really was a deity after all (because it will have no effect on his Cult), and leave Bane in the tyrant's throne doing what he's best at doing.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 19 Oct 2012 22:17:54 |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 22:29:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Statistics aside, I don't ever recall in any piece of lore that Asmodeus was capable of standing against a god either. The most recent lore that we have regarding the fellow was that he actually gained his current power in the 9 Hells thanks to Pazuzu...and prior to that he was essentially only a very powerful/influential angel of the Upper Planes.
EDIT: I should add, however, that it does say he is responsible for the "end" of a God...but it does not say specifically that he himself did the deed.
The core 4e lore on the topic is quite disconnected from the 1e/2e/3e lore on Asmodeus (and the rest of the cosmology). It's a different cosmology with no assumed continuity to the Great Wheel entities of the same names. How that ties into FR moving forward, that's an awkward question I suppose, but personally I would discount it in its entirety.
For previous lore on the topic, I'd suggest taking a look at 2e's Planes of Law, Colin McComb's 2e Dragon article on the Lords of the 9, Faces of Evil, Hellbound the Blood War, and the 3.x books Fiendish Codex I and II (for a general look at the relationship between the power level and spheres of influence of planar lords like Asmo versus gods). FCII rather bluntly mentions deific subservience (to a degree) to the fiendish powers among those gods who have a deific domain within the Hells. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4265 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 23:38:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Statistics aside, I don't ever recall in any piece of lore that Asmodeus was capable of standing against a god either. The most recent lore that we have regarding the fellow was that he actually gained his current power in the 9 Hells thanks to Pazuzu...and prior to that he was essentially only a very powerful/influential angel of the Upper Planes.
EDIT: I should add, however, that it does say he is responsible for the "end" of a God...but it does not say specifically that he himself did the deed.
The core 4e lore on the topic is quite disconnected from the 1e/2e/3e lore on Asmodeus (and the rest of the cosmology). It's a different cosmology with no assumed continuity to the Great Wheel entities of the same names. How that ties into FR moving forward, that's an awkward question I suppose, but personally I would discount it in its entirety.
For previous lore on the topic, I'd suggest taking a look at 2e's Planes of Law, Colin McComb's 2e Dragon article on the Lords of the 9, Faces of Evil, Hellbound the Blood War, and the 3.x books Fiendish Codex I and II (for a general look at the relationship between the power level and spheres of influence of planar lords like Asmo versus gods). FCII rather bluntly mentions deific subservience (to a degree) to the fiendish powers among those gods who have a deific domain within the Hells.
I'll always hearken back in my own games to Asmodeus being supreme in the 9 Hells; but his physical power is not the match of the Gods. It is his ability to manipulate and use political power that has positioned him as one of the true powers of the Outer Planes.
As my games tend to discount anything immediately prior to and following the Time of Troubles and I prefer the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons rules...it is hard for me to picture Asmodeus as anything more powerful than he is described in the Monster Manual...save on his own plane of the Nine Hells where he is much more powerful.
I suppose it is as much a matter of what an individual chooses for their game as anything else. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 23:39:32
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Also, for what it's worth I suppose I should mention that my take on Asmodeus here and the status quo of gods versus archfiends is specific for the Great Wheel/classic D&D.
My argument is one of continuity and source predominance, but not necessarily personal preference. Pathfinder/Golarion's take on the issue is rather different for some of its assumptions in that arena, and I've written quite a lot in that cosmology to the point where I'm more at home there at this point and it has a definitive gods>planar lords motif by and large. Asmodeus has always been a deity there, so it was rather amusing to see that 4e a year later went the same route. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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daarkknight
Seeker
USA
66 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 00:19:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Marc
I don't think there should be any big change, Asmodeus is a devil, it does not fit mythologically for him to be a god, his stories should be about his endless failures to have divine power. Instesd he should finally do something about Gargauth, who's siphoning off souls, there could be a secret cult war among the FR diabolists.
I actually based a campaign about this, having read about Asmodeus having a beef with Gargauth. Gargauth helped Zariel, the imprisoned former Lord (Lady?) of the First, escape. There, to hide her identity, she changed her name to Chytrine (the campaign was loosely based on Michael Stackpole's "Draconis" series of books) and tried to become a goddess herself, though Gargauth was using Zariel/Chytrine to increase his own power and become a more powerful god himself. Asmodeus caught wind of the plot and began to give aid/information to the PCs through his intermediary Gilliard de Rosan (from Book of Vile Darkness I believe).
I never did finish the campaign, but I so dearly imagined the looks on the player's faces when, after defeating Chytrine and stopping Gargauth and feeling so satisfied, that Asmodeus showed up and thanked them for assisting him with a small problem... |
"That's it!"
Quote attributed to Talor Stormhammer, paladin of Helm, when fighting a frost giant. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4265 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 00:24:02
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I did something similar...but I simply sent an agent of Asmodeus (one of his cultists) who thanked the party for helping his Lord to finish business he had wished dealt with...except that the cultist was bold faced lying...
The party's cleric was so ashamed, he eventually ended up changing his deity... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 00:48:36
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| Thinking forward, I liked the idea that imprisoned Azuth becomes a bargaining chip for Asmodeus. But as huge fan of Gargauth and his essence-stealing abilities, the Kinghts of the Shield and all their machiavellian schemes, and the Blood War I think Gargauth should steal Azuth from under Asmodeus nose. He'd be able to absorb Azuth, as he did with the Baatezu Astaroth, and use his new power to close the bloodrift between the Abyss and the Nine Hells, reinitiating the Bloodwars again. That'll keep Asmodeus busy, while Gargauth can take over the duty of directing Asmodeus worshipbase on Toril, while twisting them to his own ends. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Bane of the Harpers
Seeker
Canada
53 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 03:45:59
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I have never understood why they had to take Azuth's divinity to boost Asmodeus....They should have created a story around Gargauth....He could have been a collector of souls to help his secret master achieve goodhood....Or he could be a shard of Asmodeus or they could have used a canon god, Gargauth, as the god of sins....It would have been more realmslike than sticking to the core Asmodeus....
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 04:11:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
After 'Elminster Enraged' we could speculate (SP?) that the new Mystra has something of the Simbul in her... in which case I really don't see her going to Asmodeus begging for Azuth, but rather tearing Baator apart and getting him the hell out of there (pun intended) 
I hardly cared whom Ed chose to replace Mystra. Or so I thought. While it might have made perfect sense why he chose her, I didn't like it. Not. At. All. If WotC is true in their intent to have the gods take the backseat in 5E, then that means seeing less and less of the Simbul. Pity. While the intention was (partly) to elevate her to a higher status, in a fashion she was 'doomed' instead.
What I'm hoping is that she's only acting as a REGENT Goddess of Magic, and would relinquish the throne once she finds a suitable replacement, whoever that is. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 20 Oct 2012 04:15:55 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 08:02:36
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Sometimes I almost think the whole of the FR fan base exists to rob me of all joy that I might find in the setting.
Almost. I'm not quite that egotistical. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 11:57:15
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| In your game you can have Asmodeus own everything if it fancies you, but that does not mean that the rest of the people who like the setting will agree with you. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2013 : 21:28:23
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Asmodeus won't be a god in 5e, and I'll cite 2 possible reasons for that.
1) Paul Kemp's "Cycle of Night" trilogy details Mephistopheles's plot to overthrow Asmodeus. The released excerpts from "The Godborn" indicate that Mephistopheles has become increasingly desperate to gain more power and see his plans come to fruition. His plots have somehow become intertwined with the plan Mask had in place to return from the dead.
2) Erin Evans's "Brimstone Angels" books show Princess Glasya scheming against her father, and the devils coming into conflict with the Abolethic Sovereignty over control of Neverwinter.
The novels are setting it up for Asmodeus to go down in 5e. Whether he gets screwed over by Mystra, Mask, Glasya, Mephistopheles, or the Abolethic Sovereignty, I don't know. But much like Netheril, he has gathered too many powerful enemies, and his downfall is imminent. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1885 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2013 : 21:50:37
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thats assuming that Lady Mystra( the lady of mysteries) or Lord AO (High Lord of ALL) reconstructs Azuth ( The Lord of Spells) and doesnt raise Elminster( Lord Sage) to the position.
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I seriously doubt El will be raised to godhood, he's too important as her agent in the Realms. I would expect her to somehow invest Kel's soul with divine energy first (not that I think it's going to happen). |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Mystra's Return and the Apotheosis of Asmodeus
