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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 01:27:00
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Now, this may come as a surprise to many of you, but Asmodeus is perhaps my favorite entity in the entirety of D&D canon, Forgotten Realms and beyond. His rise to godhood is, far and away, my favorite aspect of the 4th edition. I found it to be well past time that the Devil got his due.
Anyway, as much as I rant, rave, and campaign against the return of Mystra as goddess of magic, I can see the writing on the wall and realize it's more or less an inevitability at this point. I might not like it, at all, but contrary to what impressions I've given, I can, begrudgingly, live with it.
My question is, what will Mystra's return mean for Asmodeus, who achieved apotheosis by consuming Azuth. I'm assuming, perhaps incorrectly, that if Mystra's coming back, Azuth is part of a package deal.
Does 5e represent the end of Asmodeus' divinity? If not, how do we reconcile Mystra and Azuth's return with Asmodeus remaining a god?
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"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 01:48:09
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Good question. I don't know how they'll swing it, but I could envision Asmodeus as being powerful enough that the loss of Azuth's power wouldn't diminish him over much. He's had 100 years to build on that initial investiture--losing the principal wont matter in the wake of all the divine interest he's consumed.
What would be particularly interesting is a pact he signs with Mystra and/or Azuth.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 01:50:10
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When Mystra returns and decides to take Azuth's essence from Azzy to 'reconstruct' the Lord of Spells, she could do so. Many people would love to see her do that. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 03:20:49
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thats assuming that Lady Mystra( the lady of mysteries) or Lord AO (High Lord of ALL) reconstructs Azuth ( The Lord of Spells) and doesnt raise Elminster( Lord Sage) to the position.
Asmodeus only became a deity in the realms for 4e becuase he was adeity in the core rulebooks.....
if wotc keeps him as such or strip him of it, thats all fine.... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 04:45:27
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Given that he seems to have been elevated to godhood in FR because core 4e had him that way, I'm personally sort of hoping that he's no longer divine. Asmodeus as the overlord of the 9 Hells in the context of his incarnation from 1e-3e doesn't make a bit of sense wanting to even be a god in the first place. He's not concerned with mortals or mortal worship. He has larger, more expansive things on his mind, and he's as old or older than every god in the cosmos. Let gods squabble over worshippers; children fighting for breadcrumbs while he and their elders eat at the big kids table.
Mind you, I'm not suggesting a hard retcon on this particular point. But rephrasing what happened - Asmodeus having taken and held Azuth's divine essence as a bargaining chip and to hold it over Mystra's nose for her little stunt on Avernus during the 3e period. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 05:05:35
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I'm going to say something and I don't mean to take away from what anyone else might like about the setting and how it has evolved, but Asmodeus as a major deity of evil in the Realms feels very tacked on to me. Not only was it borrowed from D&D core, but I have to admit, given that Pathfinder grabbed it and ran with it, and used Asmodeus very well, it feels very much like a "me too" thing to hang onto Asmodeus not just as an arch-devil, but a major deity of evil.
Asmodeus should still exist, and be the master of devilkind, ruler of the Nine Hells. But pushing him and his church as being as influential and widespread as, say, Bane is a mistake, to my way of thinking. With the gods dialing back their involvement, it would be nice to see this not even be a major thing, so long as he's still around for anyone that wants to use him. |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 05:16:01
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Given that they want to take the Realms back to the vibe of its origins I'd have to imagine that Asmodeus is fated to be relegated to a more minor role. For them to be more true to the original Realms it would seem to me that Bane has to take his place back as the main evil god.
That said, I would like to see Asmo stick around as kind of a low key but still very dangerous cult. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 05:16:11
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I like the idea of Asmodeus holding a divine bargaining chip in the form of Azuth's godhead.
I think it would be cool if Asmodeus could wring some concessions/power out of returning that godhead, such that he could use what he won to further cement his control of the Hells and maybe more?
FWIW I didn't mind Asmodeus as a deity, but I don't care overmuch for his having an overt presence in the Realms. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 07:33:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
That said, I would like to see Asmo stick around as kind of a low key but still very dangerous cult.
As he should. There is Bane. Azzy is just a redundancy. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 08:20:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
That said, I would like to see Asmo stick around as kind of a low key but still very dangerous cult.
As he should. There is Bane. Azzy is just a redundancy.
Some level of redundancy is benificial, gives people options.
I think undoing Asmodeus' divinity is a terrible move, though I'm hardly unbaised on the subject. For starters, it seems like a reactionary "4e did it so we have to undo it!" move and I'd like to think the writers are above that.
Secondly, while others may find it tacked on, I found Asmodeus' rise to godhood good story progression. 2e and 3e did a lot to build Asmodeus as one of the true threats, greatest evils in the multiverse; something had to happen with him and the rise to godhood was the next logical step. Reducing him to archdevil again just takes the master manipulator, the personification of lawful evil, and makes him look weak.
Thirdly, with 5e's approach of gods receding to the background, taking a hands off approach to the world, Asmodeus doesn't need to lose his godhood to take a minor role in the setting. All the gods are going to have minor roles in the setting, it's their worshipers that'll be at the forefront. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 09:48:16
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I can see Asmodeus lose divine power and if he retains any of it he will be diminished to a minor god at best. I am with all those who say Asmodeus was made god because CORE had him as one. He is one of the examples why 4e is CORE forced on the realms.
I have nothing against the fork-tounged one but his role is not that of a deity, it is the lordship over fiends in the hells and he feels out of place to me when playing the god game. He is no more a manipulator as other gods and having his only portofolio based on sin is not very convincing to me to have him rise directly to greater god status.
If we want story progress i could see Bane finally finish off Cyric and return to his rightfull place as the "big evil one", Selune and Shar having a more prominent all out war ,Garagos and Tempus getting bigger at odds and Torm taking the Red Knight publicly as his consort to give a few examples regarding the gods. Mind you, nowhere it is written that such things will come with 5e but those would be story progress.
5e puts spotlight on the worshippers and in that regard Asmodeus is lacking the backbone of them, he does not have enough worship in the realms to justify his continued status of a greater deity and that is, what comes down to in the end. Also we should not forget that i doubt that Mystra will like that Asmodeus ate her divine employee.
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The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 10:30:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I think undoing Asmodeus' divinity is a terrible move, though I'm hardly unbaised on the subject. For starters, it seems like a reactionary "4e did it so we have to undo it!" move and I'd like to think the writers are above that.
It should be undone, not because 4e did it, but because it made no sense for Asmodeus to desire or even need divinity. It's superfluous to the lord of Hell.
quote:
Secondly, while others may find it tacked on, I found Asmodeus' rise to godhood good story progression. 2e and 3e did a lot to build Asmodeus as one of the true threats, greatest evils in the multiverse; something had to happen with him and the rise to godhood was the next logical step. Reducing him to archdevil again just takes the master manipulator, the personification of lawful evil, and makes him look weak.
There's nothing reduced by being an archdevil. You can't compare gods and archfiends directly, it's an apples and oranges situation. They represent different things and have vastly different spheres of influence and interest. Going by the 2e and 3e lore (I omit 1e only because the detail is so sparse) it truly makes no sense for Asmodeus to seek divinity. He's the lord of the Hells, the epitome of Lawful Evil in the entire multiverse; why would he even care about stealing the divinity of a minor god from Toril or any other material world? |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 11:00:09
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I think Asmodeus was a good addition to Realms cast of evil deities. I agree that he should be a low key cult. IMO, Mystra shouldn't have to make any grand concessions to regain Azuth from Asmodeus. I would much rather have her take what is hers, or force Asmodeus into a situation where he gives it up willingly. 4e FR was just one parade of the bad guys always wins and good always fails, I am really tired of that. I would go with Asomdeus being put in the tough spot of take Azuth place as servant of Mystra, or give up that portion of his divinity. It can also explain why he has be reduce in power.
Also, there are several other deities in odd spots due to over lapping portfolio, since they are all coming back. Does it really have to be explained at all? Maybe one day Azuth is back and Asmodeus is still around and who knows why. |
Tarlyn Embersun |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 11:06:38
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I agree with everyone else who said that it made no sense for Asmodeus to become a deity. Why? What does he gain, exactly? He becomes a deity in Realmspace. So what. Congratulations, he's now under the thumb of Ao and beholden to mortal worshipers for his divine power just like every other divinity.
He also overlaps with Bane, which would inevitably bring them both into direct conflict.
I like the idea of him stealing Azuth's divinity and holding it as a bargaining chip. When Mystra returns she'd have to approach him and cut a deal to get Azuth back.
To me, that's worth more to Asmodeus than divinity - to get Mystra to sign on the dotted line. Imagine the horrors he could wring out of that deal. And Azuth... his divine essence has been trapped in the Hells for over a century... what has that done to him?
Asmodeus gives up Azuth freely after cutting a deal with Mystra - who comes before him on bent knee, wringing her hands, in no position to bargain - and he comes out even stronger than before after the deal. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3823 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 11:16:30
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After 'Elminster Enraged' we could speculate (SP?) that the new Mystra has something of the Simbul in her... in which case I really don't see her going to Asmodeus begging for Azuth, but rather tearing Baator apart and getting him the hell out of there (pun intended)  |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 18 Oct 2012 11:17:17 |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 11:20:22
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| Asmodeus being a deity is completely going off the lore they've established with Asmodeus for decades in D&D. He not once ever sought to seek godhood, in fact, he seeks to draw worship of gods away from mortals as he is supposed to be the core of being an atheist in D&D terms, that is. He hates the gods, and in fact, is beyond that of a god himself. I don't know if he's more of a primordial or something else entirely, but he definitely was not the type that needed to seek "godhood". I hope they take it away entirely from him and put him back as the mysterious, cult worship he's supposed to have. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12211 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 11:44:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Now, this may come as a surprise to many of you, but Asmodeus is perhaps my favorite entity in the entirety of D&D canon, Forgotten Realms and beyond. His rise to godhood is, far and away, my favorite aspect of the 4th edition. I found it to be well past time that the Devil got his due.
Anyway, as much as I rant, rave, and campaign against the return of Mystra as goddess of magic, I can see the writing on the wall and realize it's more or less an inevitability at this point. I might not like it, at all, but contrary to what impressions I've given, I can, begrudgingly, live with it.
My question is, what will Mystra's return mean for Asmodeus, who achieved apotheosis by consuming Azuth. I'm assuming, perhaps incorrectly, that if Mystra's coming back, Azuth is part of a package deal.
Does 5e represent the end of Asmodeus' divinity? If not, how do we reconcile Mystra and Azuth's return with Asmodeus remaining a god?
Yeah, another question that comes to mind is.... since the new "Mystra" is hinted as being at least somewhat the Simbul.... could we see a certain old sage raised up to take Azuth's position? I don't THINK that's where they're currently headed, but to tell the truth, of all the concepts out there, I personally wouldn't be upset with that one. Of course, I can hear some naysayers out there using it to squawk. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12211 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 12:01:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
I like the idea of Asmodeus holding a divine bargaining chip in the form of Azuth's godhead.
I think it would be cool if Asmodeus could wring some concessions/power out of returning that godhead, such that he could use what he won to further cement his control of the Hells and maybe more?
FWIW I didn't mind Asmodeus as a deity, but I don't care overmuch for his having an overt presence in the Realms.
Hmmm, interesting idea there. Perhaps Mystra's church becomes charged with hunting down members of a certain rogue devil lord's church (i.e. Gargauth), if they still exist. It has got to stick in Asmodeus' craw that Gargauth is a god and he wasn't (for a time... his entry in the 4e FRCG indicates he lost his godhood). The bargaining chip could simply be voluntarily giving up any claim upon the portfolios of Azuth when the tablets of fate are reformed (that is if Ao would even listen). Of course, what was ever explained about Gargauth's absence as a god in 4e? Or was it one of the many deaths without explanation? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 12:06:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Tarlyn
4e FR was just one parade of the bad guys always wins and good always fails, I am really tired of that.
Bad guys always win? I would question that since Szass Tam didn´t succeed with his Dread Ring and Asmodeus wasn´t summoned onto the realms. The Shades didn´t gain Neverwinter and Manshoon failed to eradicate Elminster.
Just to give some examples here, 4e is not bad guys always win.
You differ from me in the aspect for i rather am tired of the "good prevails in the end" tantrum that WOTC smacks people with. Take a look at the explanations in the sourcebooks when you are offered the chance to play evil alignment, how they almost forcefully try to tell the one reading that playing evil is bad and so forth and want you to rather play the "evil but turning good" style.
I am sick of that and the countless blacklashes the evil forces recieved in the realms in novels is just adding to it. Heroes are heroes, i give them that but when they turn the tides of battle against by far superior odds it is rather silly and not very much believable except that the only excuse for it is that they are the heroes and should always win.
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The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12211 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 12:12:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
After 'Elminster Enraged' we could speculate (SP?) that the new Mystra has something of the Simbul in her... in which case I really don't see her going to Asmodeus begging for Azuth, but rather tearing Baator apart and getting him the hell out of there (pun intended)
Oh yeah, now THAT is good visually. The problem becomes she currently lacks the power. Of course, that doesn't say that Ao couldn't do so with a flick of his finger..... or to put it another way, Ao is crafting the tablets of fate and says to Asmodeus "Give up the portfolios and divinity or follow them.... make a choice... NOW!" |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 12:32:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
After 'Elminster Enraged' we could speculate (SP?) that the new Mystra has something of the Simbul in her... in which case I really don't see her going to Asmodeus begging for Azuth, but rather tearing Baator apart and getting him the hell out of there (pun intended)
quote:
Originally posted by Tarlyn
IMO, Mystra shouldn't have to make any grand concessions to regain Azuth from Asmodeus. I would much rather have her take what is hers, or force Asmodeus into a situation where he gives it up willingly.
The issue with this approach is that it plays upon what made Mystra and the Chosen so disliked in the first place. It basically boils down to a deus ex machina; which in turn transforms formidable enemies into idiots, fools, or simply makes them look weak.
Mystra has been dead for over a century, and to the best of my knowledge still only currently exists as a vestige of a dead deity. I think the writing is on the wall, and that she will return; but there is no way realistically that she's going to jump from being dead and a few years later (at most) fighting her way through the Nine Hells to make Asmodeus grovel before her and return Azuth.
It's a horrific story in and of itself because there is no conflict. There is nothing at stake. How much is Azuth worth to Mystra? Is she willing to do a deal with Asmodeus to get him back? If she does - what will it cost her? Can she pay the cost, and if so what are the long term repercussions of her actions?
That's the stuff good stories are made out of - difficult choices, especially when those choices involve a high price. She always has the option of getting up from the table and walking away, leaving Azuth in the hands of Asmo if the price is too high.
The deal made also doesn't have to be both huge and obvious. Something subtle, and if Mystra is smart she might go the extra mile to put Asmo in a position where he'd aid her in the future as part of the arrangement at no further cost.
You know that tome of "evil" arcane spells you just found? Especially the main spell, which summons forth a powerful devil who is willing to make a deal with you? It was planted by Mystra's Chosen as part of the pact Mystra has forged with the Lord of the Nine. The devil created those spells himself, and he serves Asmodeus. Little tomes and arcane magic items like that seem to be showing up much more frequently, and the number of cults devoted to devils seems to be on the rise... ;)
Of course, politically speaking Mystra works against them publicly, even as she spreads the knowledge privately. Both causing the spread of arcane magic, and reaping the public benefits when the magic she had her followers spread is defeated by those same followers. (And of course when the stupid mortals who got ensnared by Asmodeus' schemes die, their souls belong to him. So everyone wins, except for the fool caught in the middle.)
From what I understand of recent events regarding Mystra Ed has been working on 'dirtying' her up a bit; taking off some of the good-girl shine. The same seems to be true with Elminster (someone can correct me if I am wrong). So, her striking up a deal with Asmodeus, and finding some way to perhaps twist it toward their mutual advantage goes a long way toward that goal. |
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phranctoast
Learned Scribe
USA
151 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 13:15:24
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quote:
Mystra has been dead for over a century, and to the best of my knowledge still only currently exists as a vestige of a dead deity. I think the writing is on the wall, and that she will return; but there is no way realistically that she's going to jump from being dead and a few years later (at most) fighting her way through the Nine Hells to make Asmodeus grovel before her and return Azuth.
She is a major deity, and at best wouldn't Azuths godhood only make Asmodeus a demigod? Maybe not fighting through the nine hells, but summon and bind him, then kill him at will. Gods can be summoned as proven with ZT and Bane, and devils most certainly can be. |
Currently reading: Spider and Stone by Jaleigh Johnson: Sequel to Mistshore |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 13:40:29
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Gods can be summoned but try killing one, that is a whole different picture. This brings something else to my mind.
Ao needs to punish Shar for not following guidlines. Divine disputes are to be handled in Cynosure to settle them by talks and from what we know, Mystra was assassinated without much of a talk and not even in that realm and we know the mess that came off of it. I wouldn´t be surprised if Ao wags the finger at Shar and calls her a bad girl and so forth, not that Shar would care anyway. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 15:18:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Razz
Asmodeus being a deity is completely going off the lore they've established with Asmodeus for decades in D&D. He not once ever sought to seek godhood, in fact, he seeks to draw worship of gods away from mortals as he is supposed to be the core of being an atheist in D&D terms, that is. He hates the gods, and in fact, is beyond that of a god himself. I don't know if he's more of a primordial or something else entirely, but he definitely was not the type that needed to seek "godhood". I hope they take it away entirely from him and put him back as the mysterious, cult worship he's supposed to have.
The first time I ever read a reference to Asmodeus seeking godhood was in a 2nd edition product. He wanted to subjugate an entire crystal sphere in order to achieve divine status. It has been a long time since I read it. But I do know it existed in the D&D Universe, not in the Forgotten Realms specifically. If anyone has the time to fact check me please read Paladin in Hell (2nd edition), Warriors of Heaven, or Guide to Hell. The passage is in one of those supplements….I think. The problem is I read all of the Planescape products too. And it has been a really long time. |
I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1288 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 16:16:24
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Asmodeus is another example of poor decisions in 4e. It is not that I do not like Asmodeus it is that his role was already filled. It is one of the objections I had to the new iterations of the realms. It was just not thought out well.
Everything is core was applied with such broad strokes that changes that made little sense were applied everywhere. Asmodeus works great as THE archdevil, and I think he works less well as a divine.
The purpose of devils is too get souls, so what purpose does Asmodeus have in ruling devils when he has access to all the souls he needs? he no longer needs the other devils.
His role as the tempter can be filled by Bane, who offers power, the only thing that might be missing is the *Sell your soul aspect*.
His role as archdevil can still fit any campaign niche that his divinity would fill. He could still have a church, he still influences the mortal realm, and still has all the power of hell. His divinity in fact only makes his rule in hell, unchanging because it is unlikely the other devils could match his power.
I like the direction of the realms now, but there was so much poor thought brought into the 3-->4 changeover that now things need to be done on repair mode. The everything is core zombie walk did a lot more to damage campaign worlds than it did to enhance D&D as a whole I think. |
A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 16:28:27
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Why would Asmodeus seek Godhood?
Power. Gods are simply more powerful than the most powerful Arch Fiends Asmodeus included. I mean anything above a demi god status. As a greater God Asmodeus has a huge one up on any fiendish rivals.
Also I remember reading that Asmodeus sustained perpetual wounds from his catastrophic fall from grace with deification being the only way to heal them.
Anyway if a fall from power mean the Blood War resumes, I'm all for it. |
Edited by - jordanz on 18 Oct 2012 16:29:50 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 16:39:38
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quote:
He also overlaps with Bane, which would inevitably bring them both into direct conflict.
How is this a bad thing? I love evil vs evil stories, and I think the idea of Bane and Asmodeus being contending manipulators trying to claim the world as their own works far better as a balancing act than Mystra having super-powerful agents wandering around combating the forces of evil. Then again, I'm still biased here as I like Asmodeus considerably more than Bane(The Avatar Trilogy ruined me on the guy, he's one of my least favorite deities), so I just want another option for god of lawful evil than him.
quote:
The issue with this approach is that it plays upon what made Mystra and the Chosen so disliked in the first place. It basically boils down to a deus ex machina; which in turn transforms formidable enemies into idiots, fools, or simply makes them look weak.
Mystra has been dead for over a century, and to the best of my knowledge still only currently exists as a vestige of a dead deity. I think the writing is on the wall, and that she will return; but there is no way realistically that she's going to jump from being dead and a few years later (at most) fighting her way through the Nine Hells to make Asmodeus grovel before her and return Azuth.
It's a horrific story in and of itself because there is no conflict. There is nothing at stake. How much is Azuth worth to Mystra? Is she willing to do a deal with Asmodeus to get him back? If she does - what will it cost her? Can she pay the cost, and if so what are the long term repercussions of her actions?
That's the stuff good stories are made out of - difficult choices, especially when those choices involve a high price. She always has the option of getting up from the table and walking away, leaving Azuth in the hands of Asmo if the price is too high.
The deal made also doesn't have to be both huge and obvious. Something subtle, and if Mystra is smart she might go the extra mile to put Asmo in a position where he'd aid her in the future as part of the arrangement at no further cost.
While I disagree with your assessment of Asmodeus' rise to divinity not making sense, I agree with everything you just said right here. Mystra reclaiming Azuth's divine spark by force is terrible story telling and drives home everything that was wrong with Mystra to begin with. Not to mention it doesn't make a lot of sense, as if I recall correctly from Elminster in Hell, even Mystra is loathe to face Asmodeus in his own realm, and that was before he got the power boost that came with greater-godhood.
I think my disagreement with so many fans over this issue and so many other 4e issues is that where they see the core elements being applied to the other settings and the realms in particular as being a violation, an invasion of their turf, and "tacked on", I, for the most part, see them as improvements. Too each his own, I suppose. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 16:43:39
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
Why would Asmodeus seek Godhood?
Power. Gods are simply more powerful than the most powerful Arch Fiends Asmodeus included. I mean anything above a demi god status. As a greater God Asmodeus has a huge one up on any fiendish rivals.
Also I remember reading that Asmodeus sustained perpetual wounds from his catastrophic fall from grace with deification being the only way to heal them.
Anyway if a fall from power mean the Blood War resumes, I'm all for it.
I was with you up until that last sentence.
The ending of the blood war was *the* single biggest untapped aspect of the 4e realms- most importantly it was the aspect that was realms-specific. No other setting had the blood war come to an end; in the core setting it merely cooled off and was ready to go back into full force at any moment.
The ramifications of the end of the Blood War are staggering, and need to be explored. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
662 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 17:54:55
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| I don't think there should be any big change, Asmodeus is a devil, it does not fit mythologically for him to be a god, his stories should be about his endless failures to have divine power. Instesd he should finally do something about Gargauth, who's siphoning off souls, there could be a secret cult war among the FR diabolists. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 18:03:26
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As for the Bloodwar, I think it can easilly be both. The Blodwar is/was something that started somewhere in the Outer Planes, and spilled-over into everywhere else. Over the course of countless millenia, and in an infinite (or near-infinite) multiverse, there could still be pockets of fierce fighting, and other places where fiends have been working together for centuries. The conflict is so ancient, and so widespread, that it could manifest completely differently from world to world (if at all), and you could even have both situations exist on the same world in different regions. Some fiends will hold grudges, some will just move on to more fun things, like corrupting mortals.
Fiends are individuals, just like most races - each situation is going to be slightly different. You could even have the same archfiends bitter enemies on one world, and working together on another, simply because they are all opportunists.
The only place where the nature of the Bloodwar truly mattered was on the planes of conflict, and pitched battles could still be going on there, between generals, even though the 'higher-ups' have declared a truce. Also, since when do fiends even bother to listen to their 'superiors'? Especially the demons? Would declaring a truce really change anything? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 18 Oct 2012 18:04:17 |
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Azalin
Acolyte
2 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 18:19:05
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| I have to admit I've not followed the editions but wouldn't Mystra still be prohibited from doing this from the Pact Primeval? |
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Mystra's Return and the Apotheosis of Asmodeus
