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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Oct 2012 : 16:34:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
My instinct with the Shades is to have them present but not really the focus. It depends on when the book is set, but I suspect that Netheril has plenty of other things to do in the 1480s FR, and Myth Drannor is a tougher nut to crack than some of their other enemies. There might be a few agents seeded throughout the empire, maybe an underground cult working to convert elves who have lost loved ones to Shar, and probably what amounts to a bolthole of Shadovar (a small trade/embassy enclave) who are rumored by detractors to be working to establish a staging ground for an actual invasion of New Cormanthyr from within. Odds are, this force wouldn't come until late in the campaign, and the heroes might have already dealt with the Shades by then. However, because they haven't actively invaded, the shades might present themselves as allies and advisors to the elves, or perhaps to the heroes?
And of course if you as a DM really like the shades, then this invasion could come sooner rather than later--the key is setting you up to do what you want with the setting.
Anyway, the point is I wouldn't want to see a "ooh, shades are evil, BLAH!" use of the Shade connection to Cormanthyr. It would be a "the shades are working to establish relations with the elven empire, much like Thay might have done a century ago, but old resentments do not pass easily--since Netheril and Cormanthyr were historically enemies, the Shades are finding a chilly reception."
CHeers
I'd far rather see something like this, rather than see the usual conquest for the sake of conquest gig. I'm also inclined to think that there wouldn't be too much of interest there for the Shades -- there were centuries of looting, followed by war and resettlement, and a strengthening of the mythal. I don't see much reason for them to be there other than to have diplomatic relations with another local group. |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2012 : 18:16:00
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Well o fuzziest of rodents;
there would be trade agreements for food, lumber, and other raw materials, possible mining agreements for the Desertsmouth Mts, maybe a treaty where treasures found in one nation that can clearly be identified as a
treasure from the other nation that a method of trade can be created. Travel restriction,
rules of war agreements, prisoner transfers, there is a lot of possibility between the Shades
and Cormanthor.
Markus, I like the ToEE angle myself and may use that, I was thinking that eventually Bladshee would take its wielder to Moander's temple under Hillsfar (which I have mapped out the
catacombs in some detail inside the plateau) and to a temple
in the hill at the end of Moander's road and collect what little
bits of divine energy and once again be a rank 0 or 1 god. |
Edited by - althen artren on 25 Oct 2012 18:30:20 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2012 : 18:18:17
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Yeah, I think if they dropped into the background (maybe 'go underground', literally) they'd be more useful and make more sense. Unfortunately, that makes them more like the Malaugrym, making them even more redundant with that group.
Anyhow, separate 'cells' of them all over the place would be good, similar to the cult of the Dragon, but far less structured (so maybe more like terrorist cells). Then individual groups could even be infiltrated/controlled by others as well, like The Twisted Rune or the Malaugrym (so that they are no longer so unstoppable/monolithic).
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
You do seem to know a lot about elves though, for someone who dislikes them 
If you don't like something, but don't bother learning about it, then you are just a bigot. I believe in making informed decisions.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Oct 2012 18:22:11 |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2012 : 19:42:06
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10)Druth Daern, traitor to the elves in the Weeping War, now a insane, unpredictable lich with his phylactery
outside the mythal. He poses as Ssharstrune the Ghost Naga for the cult of dark nagas underground. But he
is an enigma to me. We have no information as to why he became a traitor, or why he stayed in the city.
Maybe with some cutting room floor material, you can make him a recurring villian.
11)I have thieves guilds from all over the place descending on the city to start branches, but a
gang war will eventually start.
12)Ed says at the Barrowfields in Mistledale, there is a Worm that Walks made up from numerous killed arcane
casters in the Weeping War. Epic level creature with several minds of great arcane casters from one of the
2nd tier most powerful magic counties in history. Plus, there is a lich/entity in the dungeons under the Barrowfields and there is a gate down here. Not to mention the elven shades inhabiting the magic items in the barrows. You imagination is you limit here.
13)Because a lot of the Blackstaff backround was in Myth Drannor, along with the Seven Wizards, I think
having hooks in about the Three Who Wait in Darkness and the 5 Precepts (I think the three are Drow, Illithid,
and Phaerimm, but that just a simple guess from what I have read about the Silverstars and in Blackstaff. Perhaps
Erik, you can find more cutting room floor stuff and extrapolate furthur, or talk to SES.
14)The Vaults of Uvaeren have magic and power enough to end in the weeping war "in a couple of hours" according to FoMD.
So SES says its a vault/crypt/repository of knowledge/hiding place for evil artifacts that if exploited, could
destroy any country in Faerun. In addition, he said that a new Trio Nefarious were bound there to protect the Vault.
3 Demons: Im using a Balor, Marilith, and a Klurichir. But choose your own for you party's level. But I would like to
see the Vault utilized in some fashion.
15)Maybe the Lost Library of Cormanthor reappears from the Astral Plane with its insane, racist, elf lich and tries to
cleanse the Dales from "Elven property". Library that dwarved any library in Myth Drannor at its height, according to the
book.
16)Knights trilogy: Hesperdan says he was there for the raising of the Mythal. Was he, if so, he has some ties to it
and maybe can play with it.
17)I have a cousin of Isevele Miritar in the Castle acting in small ways to try and get her killed and
take the Ruler's Blade. (not that it would do any good, as he would get fried to a crisp, but another
Claiming Chaos period could certainly emperil a new realm. His friends are polymorphed fey'ri that have
been pushing his ambition along and helping him with the logistics.
18)I have portals from/to Myth Drannor with Undermountain (more than 1, in one of the subt levels under the ruins of 6 Tyryl Towers leading to Skullport and the Hall of the Beasttamers (canon), and anywhere I need a quick monster), World Serpent Inn (literally, anything can appear with a good explanation), Shadowdale, Semberholme, Elven Court ( I don't have evil drow there anymore, but the redeemed drow) , Battledale (I set the first tower in Assault/Attack on Myth Drannor as one of the haunted mansion in Battledale, sand from Anauroch as the portal key?), Mt Azrrhat in Anauroch (town of Daggers Point had a cave with a portal network-canon, asabi assaults led by more phaerimm), Hlaugadath (maybe canon, I have in my notes there is a portal to Myth Drannor in a temple of Mystryl, 30 line long dwarven chant "that the halls of our father's may stand for 12,000 years" lamias?), Emerald Enclave portal between Cormanthor and Evermeet (canon), The Ears (international spy ring mentioned on Wotc's website as a download) uses a long abandoned Elven Council chamber in a deserted Cormanthyr estate as they meeting place to trade info every new moon, portal from Arabat's Folly to Myth Drannor (key elven skull, choose where you want it the other end to be), Halls of the Beasttamers several portals (put them where you want: 1 definitly goes to Undermountain, I have the others going to the Raurin Desert, the Moonshae, edge of Anauroch, Underdark under the Sea of Fallen Stars, High Marsh, and the High Ice) So, literaly anything can drop in from anywhere to create a credible threat. Portals malfunction all the time, or are made to malfuncton by somebody like Larloch.
Con't |
Edited by - althen artren on 25 Oct 2012 20:18:55 |
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2012 : 03:00:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
It would be a "the shades are working to establish relations with the elven empire, much like Thay might have done a century ago, but old resentments do not pass easily--since Netheril and Cormanthyr were historically enemies, the Shades are finding a chilly reception."
The Shades have yet to be sincere when attempting to establish a "trade" relationship with another nation. Unless one counts taking control of Sembia as a sincere attempt. They already attempted to play Everska, Waterdeep, Silverymoon and Cormyr. That game is getting old fast and one would think that other nations would catch on.
quote:
Originally post by Erik Scott de Bie
Anyway, the point is I wouldn't want to see a "ooh, shades are evil, BLAH!" use of the Shade connection to Cormanthyr.
By the same token, I don't want to see "Oh, The Shades have turned a new leaf, they have given up their plans to grow a new Netheril that dominates Faerun. Now they just want to be friends". I don't think the nation of amoral wizards and Shar worshipers has anything to gain by making nice with the elves of Cormanthyr. I don't believe the elves would fall for the Shadovar's false offers of friendship or that the Shadovar would bother trying. They could instead help one of the many other parties interested in Cormanthyr's destruction, or work on arranging conflict between some of the other regional powers and Cormanthyr such as:
-cause conflict between the Dales that depend on logging as their trade and the elves
-attempt to cause a conflict between Cormyr and Cormanthyr (a huge gain for the Shadovar)
-aid the Eldreth Veluuthra in gaining political power in Cormanthyr(The Eldreth Veluuthra would do a good job of alienating most of Cormanthyr's allies all by themselves saving the Shades the trouble)
-aid the Daemonfey for similar reasons to aiding EV.
-aid efforts by local Shar clergy to corrupt the elves.
Basically, any power group that is not likely to make alliances with Cormyr and the Dalelands is a good group for the Shades to aid, since they would serve to weaken the region and make it easier for later conquest. The only possible exception would be the Zhentarim, if their power base becomes the Moonsea again otherwise they are a solid option as well.
I think that this thread is full of threats to the region and I hardly think that the Shades should dominate a book on Cormanthyr, but they control the closest nations that have a reason to be a direct antagonists(unless the Moonsea region and Sembia receive significant updates).
I am interested to see how the 5e version of the Moonsea, Hillsfar and Mulmaster would interact with Cormanthyr as well. I thought that 4e Hillsfar was no longer controlled by an anti-demihuman government and had slightly better relations with the Dales. Since the Zhentarim came up, I am also curious to see if their power base settles again in the Moonsea, or if they wind up somewhere else. I don't think that Zhentil Keep necessarily needs to be resettled again, the Zhents could use the Dragon coast as their new HQ or somewhere else. However, I would like to see an antagonistic relationship between the Moonsea region and Cormanthyr, but the source could be a new power group. |
Tarlyn Embersun |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2012 : 10:23:07
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Zhentil Keep needs to be reestablished alone for the fact that it is the most iconic city in the Moonsea area, Phlan, Mulmaster and Hillsfar come second.
The Zhentarim never liked Cormanthor and the war they waged against them symbolizes it. The only thing that might go "friendly" with the elves is the fact that they both have the common enemy in shape of the Shades and even though not very likely i could see an alliance between the Zhentarim who are not run by cyricist incompetents but the Church of Bane and the elves or Cormanthor to drive back the Shade threat. After they dealt with the Netherese they can go back at the old animosities and dissolve the alliance. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2012 : 11:19:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
Zhentil Keep needs to be reestablished alone for the fact that it is the most iconic city in the Moonsea area, Phlan, Mulmaster and Hillsfar come second.
The Zhentarim never liked Cormanthor and the war they waged against them symbolizes it. The only thing that might go "friendly" with the elves is the fact that they both have the common enemy in shape of the Shades and even though not very likely i could see an alliance between the Zhentarim who are not run by cyricist incompetents but the Church of Bane and the elves or Cormanthor to drive back the Shade threat. After they dealt with the Netherese they can go back at the old animosities and dissolve the alliance.
I agree completely that the Zhentarim should be supported by Bane and his allies rather than cyricists. However, I am not convinced that Zhentil Keep needs to be resettled by the Zhents, they could base their operations out of Darkhold or Mulmaster. I have no problem with Zhentil Keep being resettled, I just think that there are other options. |
Tarlyn Embersun |
Edited by - Tarlyn on 26 Oct 2012 11:20:43 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2012 : 13:19:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
No Ityak-Ortheel, please. Not only do I think we should keep Myth Drannor's enemies list limited to those who are traditional and/or local (which also excludes the Shades), using Ityak-Ortheel is kinda like Godzilla (Gojira!) and Tokyo: simply too much destruction. I want enemies who are going to do something other than a mindless rampage that destroys everything in its path.
As a huge Godzilla fan, I vote "Yes Ityak-Ortheel, please". |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2012 : 14:05:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Tarlyn
However, I am not convinced that Zhentil Keep needs to be resettled by the Zhents, they could base their operations out of Darkhold or Mulmaster. I have no problem with Zhentil Keep being resettled, I just think that there are other options.
The Zhents ran the show in Zhentil Keep for quite some time and they just fit into the "public display" of the city. If they weren´t around, it would be like the city is lacking something in my opinion.
Darkhold has the issue with cyricist though i would be all for rooting them out. Yet Darkhold is too far away from Cormanthor and rather a threat for Cormyr or the Western Heartlands. Mulmaster would work but Zhentil Keep is still the "heart" of the Zhentarim for me, like Myth Drannor is the "heart" of Cormanthor and not any other settlement in the forest. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2012 : 04:55:35
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| So, Erik, did any of my plot hooks get your wheels spinning? |
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2012 : 03:47:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
The Zhents ran the show in Zhentil Keep for quite some time and they just fit into the "public display" of the city. If they weren´t around, it would be like the city is lacking something in my opinion.
Darkhold has the issue with cyricist though i would be all for rooting them out. Yet Darkhold is too far away from Cormanthor and rather a threat for Cormyr or the Western Heartlands. Mulmaster would work but Zhentil Keep is still the "heart" of the Zhentarim for me, like Myth Drannor is the "heart" of Cormanthor and not any other settlement in the forest.
Understandable, I just want to see the Banite backed Zhentarim rise again. Also, whatever happens with the Moonsea, I would like it to serve as an antagonist for Cormanthor and the Dalelands.
My hope for a Myth Drannor supplement is that it could develop the Cormanthor and Daleslands relationship as well as touch on all of the major nations bordering that area. The best example of this I can give is the City of Splendors box set from 2e.
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Tarlyn Embersun |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2012 : 09:06:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Tarlyn
Understandable, I just want to see the Banite backed Zhentarim rise again. Also, whatever happens with the Moonsea, I would like it to serve as an antagonist for Cormanthor and the Dalelands.
Not only you want to see that |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2012 : 13:47:44
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The Zhents can plant themselves into any of the other cities they have "posession" of around the Moonsea.
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2012 : 05:40:45
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| I'm sticking with my stance on no Ityak-Ortheel, please. I think there can be enough conflict without the elf-eater, well, eating. Then again, I'm just tired of elven settlements getting demolished all the time (though the Crown Wars was on them, not outside forces. For the most part, anyway). |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2012 : 06:05:59
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quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
The Zhents can plant themselves into any of the other cities they have "posession" of around the Moonsea.
This makes me snicker just a little. I remember back to the days when the 2e boxed set was still relatively new... and I spent an entire day bookmarking the many references about either the Zhentilar or the Black Network having agents in a particular city or town, as well as all the other locations they secretly controlled. Just about every page had something about the Zhentilar or the Zhentarim having agents here or secret cabals there.
They're all still bookmarked, I think, as they're references I like to use time and again when the Zhentarim feature in any of my pre-1369 DR games. |
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Edited by - The Sage on 06 Nov 2012 06:08:14 |
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2012 : 11:11:38
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| The elf-eater would be better for an adventure set in the region than a regional feature. They could mention rumors of a group of cultist trying to summon the thing in the Myth Drannor supplement and then have an adventure were the PCs actions determine whether it is summoned, or if the cultists are stopped before they can complete their ritual. Also, the PC could then have to hunt the elf-eater down provided they failed to stop the ritual. |
Tarlyn Embersun |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2012 : 16:08:37
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| Or they guard the ritual, mind you not everyone sees the necessity to be the "good guy". |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2012 : 20:21:42
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| The resettlement of Myth Drannor via novel was one of the more stupid things that happened in the 3rd edition Realms, so going back to having it as an actual ruin and the second largest graveyard of adventurers in the Realms would be what I want to see happen. Give me a supplement on Myth Drannor as it was before those idiotic novels came out. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2012 : 21:45:01
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| I happen to have liked those "idiotic novels". And destroying Myth Drannor yet again would be like destroying Mystra yet again. It gets old. Yeah cities come and go, but they don't need to keep doing that. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2012 : 22:24:38
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That's cool that you liked them. But major, setting changing events like restoring Myth Drannor should be left for players to undertake, not changed in-setting by novels. That's my issue with them. I find novels driving in-setting changes to be totally idiotic.
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2012 : 22:40:40
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| Mmm, I guess it would matter more to you than it would to me. I primarily read the novels. But you could always use the ruins in your campaign, if you like it better that way. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2012 : 01:54:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
That's cool that you liked them. But major, setting changing events like restoring Myth Drannor should be left for players to undertake, not changed in-setting by novels. That's my issue with them. I find novels driving in-setting changes to be totally idiotic.
It is the double edged sword of dnd settings, isn't it. Whether to leave the players with their sandbox or to have story progression.
Personally, Myth Drannor was never a place of interest for me in the realms, so it's destruction or restoration means little to me. But I do like that the story of the setting progressed and didn't stagnate. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Bravesteel
Acolyte
USA
23 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2012 : 03:00:54
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| I love that actual world changing events happen in the novels as it makes them so much more interesting. I tend to never mind things changing in the Realms as I run things a little behind what the current time is so I can sometimes mold the adventures that the party accomplishes to cause such and such to occur just like it does in the so called present time line. The players read about something and they're like "Yeah and while Elminster was doing this, unbeknownst to him, we helped him succeed because of that one thing we did." Not that I link everything to major events but hopefully it explains why I like the setting to progress and change. |
I loved to read and to write, but then something happened. As I made my way through school, I kept getting handed books to read that didn't excite me and didn't even remotely connect to the realities of my life.- R. A. Salvatore
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2012 : 17:06:30
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In my mind, Myth Drannor is not so much of a town as it is an evidence of a different
mentality among a faction with the elves. Here is how I break this down mentally:
First breaking point: Conservative elves "remain pure of the riff-raff races and cling
to our past glories and current belief that we are the chosen of all the living races
on Faerun." The only one of these in Myth Drannor are of the Great Clans individuals who wish to
destroy another enemy of the elves in the Demonfey, the ones who believe there must be
a buffer zone for Evermeet (and to a lesser extent Evereska,but they are buffering there reluctantly), and those
who would start a new push to regain the old elven empires through the sword (very looooong term
planning here.) Old Progressives: "we had our attempt at integrating in Myth Drannor, Myth Ondathel, Myth
Glaurach, and Ascalhorn, but they were all destroyed and we were defeated. We will work with the other races
to protect Faerun from the ravages of true evil, but will no longer seek to fully integrate our cultures", these
guys are there to help get the city resettled and built, but will leave to pure elven lands once again, and
the Neo-Progressives: "The world is a tapestry, each individual is a thread, if enough threads are removed or
clash with their neighbors, the tapestry is ruined." These are the young dreamers, the hopeful, the young, or
the ones who are not jaded or pessimistic about joining again with other races to create a new "City of Song".
In my version of Myth Drannor, Neo's are the primary group occupying and cleaning the ruins. |
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PaulBestwick
Seeker
United Kingdom
83 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2012 : 11:54:10
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| I like the resettlement story for Myth Drannor, but I like the idea that it takes time to rebuild and in the lifetime of Elves a hundred years is not that long. Why not a city at the side of a vast expanse of ruins. It worked for Glorantha with Pavis and the Big Rubble, I can see it working here. |
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Myth Drannor 5E
