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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12094 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Nov 2012 : 15:55:33
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
Velsharoon, Savras, Azuth, Parrafaire (Abjuration), Malyk (maybe they could pull him away from being an aspect of Talos...I wrote a short story about "Malyk" choosing a mortal successor as the other Gods prevent him from maintaining this guise), Finder (bardic magic?) and Leira (if she returns to life somehow, or if it is before the time of troubles) seem like a pantheon of magic to me. In my own realms that I write about because I don't like 4e realms Dweomheart is inhabited by:
Velsharoon
Savras
Azuth
Parrafaire (sp?)
Malyka (a female Air genasi who takes the mantle of divinity then pulls away from Talos, like Velsharoon did)
Kered (a god of Sword mages. :S This is the name I always used in the Baldur's Gate games)
Midnight (Mystra reborn but much weaker)
Set
Leira
I explain the ressurections with a "Dawn Restructuring" to undo damage caused by the Dawn Cataclysm, Time of Troubles, and Spellplague...although not completely.
Finder is a god of magic but I have him dwelling in Selune's divine realm (that I call Elysium because I don't like the name Gates of the Moon)
*taps chin* that's true, though I'll admit I am not familiar with Set, Kered, Parrafaire, and Malyka, and it seems like most, if not all of the magical deities are dead.
@MrHedgeHog: I don't believe I've seen your deity list, and I'd be interested to look at it 
If we were to have deities over the schools/methodologies of magic, then my main viewpoint would be that the deities don't have absolute "control" over their domain. They would be a part of a "peer review" group that maintains control over "how" spells work and which spells are on which group's spell lists. Thus, they might help the "Mystra" peer review changes to a given spell that was done in other crystal spheres to determine if that's how its going to work in Toril. Thus, lets assume some new wizard & bard illusion spell comes "up for review". Mystra, Azuth, Milil, Oghma, and Leira might all have input as to whether to accept said changes, etc... Ostensibly, it may only take one of them to modify the spell, but then another could change it back (thus why we've seen many spells changing over the years). However, if several deities get together they can "lock" a spell from tampering. Then if one deity is becoming an issue, the "Mystra" can block its "administrative rights" to modifying spells. I know this sounds a little mundane, but it gets to the heart of "why" have all these different magic deities and "how" it would work.
With that idea in mind, I'd agree with the
Velsharoon (necromancy no matter the class)
Savras (divination no matter the class)
Azuth (wizards in general)
Malyk (wild and destructive magic, or perhaps elemental magic, no matter the class)
Leira (illusion, no matter the class)
For Bardic magic, I'd say divide it between Milil & Oghma.
Then, some of the non-standard deities that we might not normally consider could be given other schools of magic that they could weigh in on. For instance:
Deneir (truename magic)
Lliira (spelldancing)
Helm or another guardian god (abjuration)
Sune & Sharess (enchantment)
Gargauth (summoning)
Kossuth (fire magic)
Talos (lightning magic)
Talona (poison magic)
Auril (cold magic)
Silvanus, Chauntea, Eldath, Mielikki, Lurue, Malar - druidic magic
Now, throwing in other pantheons, there could be even more reviewers/changers of spells. For instance, Thoth, Set, and Isis of the Mulhorandi pantheon.
The two most commonly changed "types" of spells would be wizard and cleric spells. All gods would have a say so on cleric spells, and thus it might be that it takes multiple gods working together to "unlock" and "change" a cleric spell (not unheard of) because most likely several deities stuck locks on the clerical spells to prevent tampering in the first place. This is why Azuth would be so special though, as he'd be the main deity who specifically reviews all wizard spell changes.
Now, for playing the game, do we need to know the exact mechanics of how they review these changes, enact them, lock them, unlock them, etc...... No, but what we do know is that this provides an example of how the other gods could limit Mystra's power. She may let these other gods change spells all the time and only give them cursory overview. Her main role here would be to stop those who get the idea that they can tinker away with noone stopping them.... and even that she can pass off by the fact that multiple gods can start undoing changes and locking spells. Ultimately if someone were modifying things too much, maybe she could "set them to read-only access" for a bit. But stripping a god's access to the weave would be outside her domain and up to Ao himself. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12094 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2012 : 16:21:46
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| BTW, my discussion above has one core idea that might need a little discussion. Spell research/creation. How does a new spell get "created" such that a bunch of deities end up having to review it? This is why earlier in this same thread when talking about spells I called them "spell constructs". In the study of the laws of physics, there are all of these "constants" that are immutable and never change.... and therefore things simply "are" and therefore you would just "test" a theory or calculate what you need. Magic doesn't work that way, as your "constants" can change on you (which is why using Epic Magic to recreate even low level spells is so much harder, as you take these "variables" into account). Therefore, spell research's expenses are actually spent "creating" a new "constant" using the weave (i.e. molding a portion of the weave such that it can be used as a spell). This causes a disturbance in the weave, which attracts the attention of the gods related to said spell type. They then choose either to destroy this new "constant"/spell construct or to further solidify it by "approving" it for review by their other peers. (side note, in order for a new spell to be created, I'd imagine multiple deities would need to accept it). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Lunarbeams
Acolyte
43 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2012 : 03:44:13
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| A gods based on schools and traditions magic makes more sense |
"Software are easy to solve because they do not have egos. " |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2012 : 05:07:55
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@Slevas - and here I thought I was the king of over-thinking things. 
I get the gist of what you were saying, though.
@MrHedgehog - I thoroughly approve of using Midnight in this nerfed form. I did something similar with her in the Kara-Tur material I was writing awhile back (a single Avatar of Mystra remained in the east after her death, but has amnesia caused by the damge done to her/The Weave). She makes an excellent 'goddess of spells' (whereas Azuth is the god of Mages). There should be no single 'all-powerful' deity of magic, IMHO (with the possible exception of Lurue, who is obscure and 'alien' enough not to unbalance things).
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
<snip> The passage in itself is contradictory. If Mystra "took all the magic in the world with her," then what magic is Karsus "struggling to keep ... within himself"? The magic can't both have vanished AND be there inside him.
This suggests that "took all the magic in the world with her" shouldn't be interpreted literally. A more accurate statement would be "took all the control of magic in the world with her" or "took the bulk of the magic in the world with her," which would suggest that maybe what Mystra did was cut off magic from the world so that it wouldn't go wild and destroy everything (ala Spellplague) as soon as Karsus lost control of it (which he was clearly doing). It's kind of a tricky and ambiguous passage. <snip>
I find this interesting, in that I am once-again working on my "Misbegotten Realms", and have even begun to to write some of its history, which is a simplified version of FR's history that fits my new arrangement. This whole thing about Karsus and Mystra strangely ties into my homebrew lore regarding the Imaskar/Netheril war. Part of it concerns what happens when a deity - ESPECIALLY of god of MAGIC - over-taxes a portion of the Weave. Basically, it creates a 'hole', because the Weave cannot self-repair itself fast enough (like the way massive damage works against a creature with regen). Thats all homebrew, but its funny how I was just thinking about this stuff this morning, and something similar came-up in a thread later in the day. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Nov 2012 05:08:32 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12094 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2012 : 20:44:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
@Slevas - and here I thought I was the king of over-thinking things.
I get the gist of what you were saying, though.
Lol, you think that's bad... you should have read the thesis I wrote on how in the hell the red wizards would protect the "circle" spell back during 2nd edition. I will say, I made much use of Volo's Guide to all things magical and the special materials section, and the fact that some beings can cast at will abilities constantly, and that in 2nd edition, casting magic in the astral plane was addictive, and a spell that was similar to spell engine but could convert the incoming spell energy for other purposes. And that was just to prevent people from getting ahold of "spell ghosts" I think it was called (the aftereffect of casting a spell that appears on the astral). I had written up that it was a right of passage for all red wizards that they develop a new means to protect the magic upon becoming an actual red wizard and not an apprentice.
Seriously though, it is the "weave", so therefore having something where you have all these hundreds of "spell constructs" hanging in this weave, with each managed by a half dozen to a dozen deities, all of whom probably don't themselves see the full scope of how its maintained...... well, that just screams weave to me. Azuth seeing just his fraction of the weave (i.e. just wizards) might be boggling enough for him.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2012 : 21:31:26
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I like the basic concept because it relates to how I see magic and The Weave working; very much like a super-computer, along the lines of how the whole universe worked in the Well of Souls series. It was even similar (in some ways) to how the Matrix behaved (basically, nearly everything was 'code' over-written on top of a VERY bare-bones universe).
So your ideas about The Weave and Red Wizards (and spell constructs) is like writing new lines of code - little 'mini-apps' that run inside the interface. Every time the Weave gets 'rebooted', older apps have a chance of failing (because there is only so much support for 'legacy' programs).
Khelben: "What the hell was THAT?!"
Elminster: "A fireball."
Khelben: "THAT was a fireball? Mine don't come out like that."
Elminster: "I am still running Fireball 2.0; its a lot more powerful, but it has a tendency to crash on occasion."
Khelben: "Wow! I've been running Fireball 4.5 - its not as robust but you can do more of them."
Elminster: {sigh} "Thats the trouble with today's apprentices - its all about quantity over quality." |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12094 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2012 : 14:05:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I like the basic concept because it relates to how I see magic and The Weave working; very much like a super-computer, along the lines of how the whole universe worked in the Well of Souls series. It was even similar (in some ways) to how the Matrix behaved (basically, nearly everything was 'code' over-written on top of a VERY bare-bones universe).
So your ideas about The Weave and Red Wizards (and spell constructs) is like writing new lines of code - little 'mini-apps' that run inside the interface. Every time the Weave gets 'rebooted', older apps have a chance of failing (because there is only so much support for 'legacy' programs).
Khelben: "What the hell was THAT?!"
Elminster: "A fireball."
Khelben: "THAT was a fireball? Mine don't come out like that."
Elminster: "I am still running Fireball 2.0; its a lot more powerful, but it has a tendency to crash on occasion."
Khelben: "Wow! I've been running Fireball 4.5 - its not as robust but you can do more of them."
Elminster: {sigh} "Thats the trouble with today's apprentices - its all about quantity over quality."
Exactly, and Mystra is running herself ragged while hundreds of deities are running in and tweaking spells left and right to their own advantage. Meanwhile, humans are "researching" and thereby creating new spell constructs for review all the time. Is it no wonder that she raised up Azuth? She's her personal peer reviewer with an eye towards balance, basically to help her catch what she's letting fall between the cracks. And that's just spells..... when it comes to tying constructs in the weave to items... well, is it any wonder it takes a lot of extra study in order to do so? Otherwise there would be WAAYYY too much policing. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2012 : 01:48:02
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| I'm not sure if I can fully vote here. I do want Mystra to come back, but I don't want their to be only one god/dess of magic and for that god/dess to have complete control over it either. I know Corellon and a few other gods of FR are associated with magic, but Mystra is made out to be the tyrant over her weave. I think magic should be a free flowing thing. I'd say: bring Mystra back, pull some gods of magic out of FR's past and let no one have a Weave or a significant control over magic like that. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36912 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2012 : 04:38:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Aryalómë
I'm not sure if I can fully vote here. I do want Mystra to come back, but I don't want their to be only one god/dess of magic and for that god/dess to have complete control over it either. I know Corellon and a few other gods of FR are associated with magic, but Mystra is made out to be the tyrant over her weave. I think magic should be a free flowing thing. I'd say: bring Mystra back, pull some gods of magic out of FR's past and let no one have a Weave or a significant control over magic like that.
What's the point of having a deity of something if they don't control it? All deities are tyrants over their portfolios -- none of them shares with anyone else, and they all have total control over their portfolios.
I've yet to hear someone complain about the fact that Chauntea could, if she wanted to, pick any place in the Realms and not allow any plants or animals to grow there. I've yet to hear anyone complain about the fact that Lathander could keep the sun from shining on an area. No one cares that Milil could keep there from being any music, anywhere in Realmspace.
But when it comes to Mystra, all bets are off... If deity A does something, no one pays attention. If Mystra does the same thing, she's a tyrant, her Chosen are the Justice League and they're all Ed's Mary Sues, and their mere existence makes role-playing in the Realms pointless and boring.
I get really, really tired of this double-standard. 
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2012 : 07:23:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Aryalómë
I'm not sure if I can fully vote here. I do want Mystra to come back, but I don't want their to be only one god/dess of magic and for that god/dess to have complete control over it either. I know Corellon and a few other gods of FR are associated with magic, but Mystra is made out to be the tyrant over her weave. I think magic should be a free flowing thing. I'd say: bring Mystra back, pull some gods of magic out of FR's past and let no one have a Weave or a significant control over magic like that.
Can they really do that, though? I mean, if that was the case, Cyric could have just killed everyone.
What's the point of having a deity of something if they don't control it? All deities are tyrants over their portfolios -- none of them shares with anyone else, and they all have total control over their portfolios.
I've yet to hear someone complain about the fact that Chauntea could, if she wanted to, pick any place in the Realms and not allow any plants or animals to grow there. I've yet to hear anyone complain about the fact that Lathander could keep the sun from shining on an area. No one cares that Milil could keep there from being any music, anywhere in Realmspace.
But when it comes to Mystra, all bets are off... If deity A does something, no one pays attention. If Mystra does the same thing, she's a tyrant, her Chosen are the Justice League and they're all Ed's Mary Sues, and their mere existence makes role-playing in the Realms pointless and boring.
I get really, really tired of this double-standard.
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"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12094 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2012 : 09:53:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Aryalómë
I'm not sure if I can fully vote here. I do want Mystra to come back, but I don't want their to be only one god/dess of magic and for that god/dess to have complete control over it either. I know Corellon and a few other gods of FR are associated with magic, but Mystra is made out to be the tyrant over her weave. I think magic should be a free flowing thing. I'd say: bring Mystra back, pull some gods of magic out of FR's past and let no one have a Weave or a significant control over magic like that.
What's the point of having a deity of something if they don't control it? All deities are tyrants over their portfolios -- none of them shares with anyone else, and they all have total control over their portfolios.
I've yet to hear someone complain about the fact that Chauntea could, if she wanted to, pick any place in the Realms and not allow any plants or animals to grow there. I've yet to hear anyone complain about the fact that Lathander could keep the sun from shining on an area. No one cares that Milil could keep there from being any music, anywhere in Realmspace.
But when it comes to Mystra, all bets are off... If deity A does something, no one pays attention. If Mystra does the same thing, she's a tyrant, her Chosen are the Justice League and they're all Ed's Mary Sues, and their mere existence makes role-playing in the Realms pointless and boring.
I get really, really tired of this double-standard.
<devil's advocate mode on... don't read tone into what I'm writing>
Because Selune was the only god/goddess of the moon?
Because Shar was the only god/goddess of darkness?
Because Sseth was the only god/goddess of serpentkind?
Because Kelemvor was the only god/goddess of death?
Mystra is the only one that they tried to say spanned multiple pantheons (because it was noted in resources that Thoth was not her equal). Essentially, they didn't want to answer the hard question (and it is a hard question) of what exactly she controlled as "the goddess of magic", and it ended up turning her into a power almost the equivalent of Ao himself. So, then they tried to "fix" this problem by making it that ALL the gods are actually faking multiple identities (i.e. what happened in 4th edition). That drove away a lot of their customer base, because it didn't mesh well that all the gods of the moon are the same, etc....
So, perhaps the answer is to define her role better? Maybe split the power between multiple individuals? For instance, is she the protector of the weave from abuse & ultimate approver of all spells created.... and maybe someone else is over the weaving/drawing in of magic into the weave to power it (i.e. fey magic, elemental magic, shadow magic, mental magic, soul energy magic, infernal magic, celestial magic)..... and someone else is responsible for the creation/maintenance of magical items & magical constructs (i.e. things that constantly draw power out of the weave).
BTW, the discusssion above does also bring back some other options for when 5th edition comes back. There could be some gods of magic returning like Azuth if they return the Mulhorandi. Thoth, Isis, and/or Set.... if they were to say return and help Mystra "fix" the weave, their acceptance outside of Mulhorand would be assured. Given they've had a century away in a world with no deities, they may be "returning" with a lot of divine power. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dr. Dieter McMuff
Acolyte
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2012 : 17:12:13
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Magic has always struck me as being the sparks thrown off by the power of Creation meeting the power of Destruction, much like sparks produced by flint and steel. From this cosmic grinding does the universe get Time as well. It is a truly primordial thing and should be beyond the control of any being below Ao's status, not some ridiculous being who keeps getting killed. Let Mystra reincarnate as her mortal incarnation, Midnight, again if it so pleases you that she not be dead or even give her a minor divine role on the sidelines if you must insist, but never again should magic be ruled.
God ARE tyrants and they LOVE to win. That being said, there is no reason a Goddess of Magic wouldn't be loading her/his clerics up with more access spellwise than the other gods could and wholesale destroy the competition. Balance is an illusion, a stalemate only brought about by powers in opposition, most of whom wouldn't give a proverbial about a so called "Balance". Tyr wants to win as badly as Cyric, he just won't go about it the same way.
Let me be exceedingly blunt by saying if you want your power to come from a god, play a divine class. If you want your power to come straight from the tap, play Arcane, but in no way should the standard gods utilized by clerics be allowed to control where a non divine class gets its powers from.
....I really don't expect this to change anything really. The minds in charge are as made up as my own is. Fortunately, in a world of pure imagination, NONE of us have to agree with each other about a single darn thing! If I, as DM, like my imaginary world to be deity of magic free with a green sky, than by God it shall be and everyone else is free to ignore me to their heart's content. For example, I'm going to have Karsus pull the wool over everyone's eyes by getting over himself. He's going to steal both Weaves and deprive the world of ALL arcane for about 1,500 years. At the end of this long period, he shall return from hiding not with two weaves, but one Tapestry. His last act is a self sacrifice of all that he is and ever was to the one thing he ever loved, Magic, and with that sacrifice, he places magic beyond the control of any deity ever again (save Ao).
See? Did all that and none of it will ever affect the rest of you unless you adopt it as your own. The next players I DM for that play an arcane class will be pioneers in their field with no deity aside from whomever they may worship guiding their ethics and use of magic. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2012 : 18:06:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Aryalómë
I'm not sure if I can fully vote here. I do want Mystra to come back, but I don't want their to be only one god/dess of magic and for that god/dess to have complete control over it either. I know Corellon and a few other gods of FR are associated with magic, but Mystra is made out to be the tyrant over her weave. I think magic should be a free flowing thing. I'd say: bring Mystra back, pull some gods of magic out of FR's past and let no one have a Weave or a significant control over magic like that.
What's the point of having a deity of something if they don't control it? All deities are tyrants over their portfolios -- none of them shares with anyone else, and they all have total control over their portfolios.
I've yet to hear someone complain about the fact that Chauntea could, if she wanted to, pick any place in the Realms and not allow any plants or animals to grow there. I've yet to hear anyone complain about the fact that Lathander could keep the sun from shining on an area. No one cares that Milil could keep there from being any music, anywhere in Realmspace.
But when it comes to Mystra, all bets are off... If deity A does something, no one pays attention. If Mystra does the same thing, she's a tyrant, her Chosen are the Justice League and they're all Ed's Mary Sues, and their mere existence makes role-playing in the Realms pointless and boring.
I get really, really tired of this double-standard.
The problem with that argument is that it's not exactly true. It's been pointed out again and again; sometimes by Ed himself, that Mystra is special. She's not like the other deities.
One of the primary reasons we ended up with the contrived Shadow Weave (and now it appears, the Demonweave being created by Lolth), was to try and reduce Mystra's influence and control. A deity may have a strong influence over something, but that deity is hardly immune to having their portfolio encroached upon by other deities.
We saw this with Valkur and Umberlee.
Trying to equate Mystra's dominion over the Weave with Milil's dominion over music is disingenuous, because they are not comparable.
The issue with Mystra was never that she was the goddess of Magic; it was the fact that the Weave is / was so integral to the setting that it placed her ABOVE the other deities. Keeping in mind that this was one of the reasons she had so many Chosen in the first place, when compared to other deities.
Now, even in this circumstance I don't think it would have normally become a problem. What caused the problem was the heavy focus on Mystra and her Chosen in novels. Then, what I think pushed many people into the anti-Mystra camp, were the actions that took place during and after the Time of Troubles. For example, in (I believe Prince of Lies? - someone correct me if I'm wrong), Mystra cut Cyric off from the Weave. This I think was the red line.
Now, you can argue that Mystra got slapped down for doing that, and maybe even learned a lesson. Sure, that's fine. It's a legitimate argument. However, it highlighted a problem that existed with having a single deity controlling the primary source of magic in the setting. And this deity and her servitors are constantly placed out front and center... This created a constant spotlight on the problem, and acted as a constant reminder. If this was some background fluff (imagine Oghma with this power, for example), it would have largely become and remained a non-issue.
This created legitimate balance issues within the pantheon that needed to be addressed.
If Mystra was on par with other deities, such as Milil, as you've attempted to suggest, then there would be no debate. There would be no reason for it. She would also not hold the position in the setting that she does; because her power would be much more diluted. Sure, Mystra controls Magic, but she doesn't control Illusions - Cyric does. Nor does she control spellcasters - Azuth does. Nor does she control Necromancy - Velsharoon does. Nor does she control Divination - Savras does. Etc.
However, by controlling the primary source of magic in the setting - the Weave, Mystra effectively subverts these other deities.
This says nothing of the problems caused if you actually try to challenge Mystra and dislodge her from her place of power. All of the other deities could reasonably be challenged, defeated, and replaced. Yet, we all know what happens to magic in the setting if Mystra is killed.
If Milil were to be destroyed, music would not cease to exist would it? No, of course not. Just as when Moander was destroyed decay cease to happen? No, it continued just fine.
The same has not, and has never been true for Mystra. Thus, to compare her to other deities is disingenuous. She exists in a category all of her own. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36912 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2012 : 19:19:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Aryalómë
I'm not sure if I can fully vote here. I do want Mystra to come back, but I don't want their to be only one god/dess of magic and for that god/dess to have complete control over it either. I know Corellon and a few other gods of FR are associated with magic, but Mystra is made out to be the tyrant over her weave. I think magic should be a free flowing thing. I'd say: bring Mystra back, pull some gods of magic out of FR's past and let no one have a Weave or a significant control over magic like that.
What's the point of having a deity of something if they don't control it? All deities are tyrants over their portfolios -- none of them shares with anyone else, and they all have total control over their portfolios.
I've yet to hear someone complain about the fact that Chauntea could, if she wanted to, pick any place in the Realms and not allow any plants or animals to grow there. I've yet to hear anyone complain about the fact that Lathander could keep the sun from shining on an area. No one cares that Milil could keep there from being any music, anywhere in Realmspace.
But when it comes to Mystra, all bets are off... If deity A does something, no one pays attention. If Mystra does the same thing, she's a tyrant, her Chosen are the Justice League and they're all Ed's Mary Sues, and their mere existence makes role-playing in the Realms pointless and boring.
I get really, really tired of this double-standard.
The problem with that argument is that it's not exactly true. It's been pointed out again and again; sometimes by Ed himself, that Mystra is special. She's not like the other deities.
One of the primary reasons we ended up with the contrived Shadow Weave (and now it appears, the Demonweave being created by Lolth), was to try and reduce Mystra's influence and control. A deity may have a strong influence over something, but that deity is hardly immune to having their portfolio encroached upon by other deities.
We saw this with Valkur and Umberlee.
Trying to equate Mystra's dominion over the Weave with Milil's dominion over music is disingenuous, because they are not comparable.
The issue with Mystra was never that she was the goddess of Magic; it was the fact that the Weave is / was so integral to the setting that it placed her ABOVE the other deities. Keeping in mind that this was one of the reasons she had so many Chosen in the first place, when compared to other deities.
Now, even in this circumstance I don't think it would have normally become a problem. What caused the problem was the heavy focus on Mystra and her Chosen in novels. Then, what I think pushed many people into the anti-Mystra camp, were the actions that took place during and after the Time of Troubles. For example, in (I believe Prince of Lies? - someone correct me if I'm wrong), Mystra cut Cyric off from the Weave. This I think was the red line.
Now, you can argue that Mystra got slapped down for doing that, and maybe even learned a lesson. Sure, that's fine. It's a legitimate argument. However, it highlighted a problem that existed with having a single deity controlling the primary source of magic in the setting. And this deity and her servitors are constantly placed out front and center... This created a constant spotlight on the problem, and acted as a constant reminder. If this was some background fluff (imagine Oghma with this power, for example), it would have largely become and remained a non-issue.
This created legitimate balance issues within the pantheon that needed to be addressed.
If Mystra was on par with other deities, such as Milil, as you've attempted to suggest, then there would be no debate. There would be no reason for it. She would also not hold the position in the setting that she does; because her power would be much more diluted. Sure, Mystra controls Magic, but she doesn't control Illusions - Cyric does. Nor does she control spellcasters - Azuth does. Nor does she control Necromancy - Velsharoon does. Nor does she control Divination - Savras does. Etc.
However, by controlling the primary source of magic in the setting - the Weave, Mystra effectively subverts these other deities.
This says nothing of the problems caused if you actually try to challenge Mystra and dislodge her from her place of power. All of the other deities could reasonably be challenged, defeated, and replaced. Yet, we all know what happens to magic in the setting if Mystra is killed.
If Milil were to be destroyed, music would not cease to exist would it? No, of course not. Just as when Moander was destroyed decay cease to happen? No, it continued just fine.
The same has not, and has never been true for Mystra. Thus, to compare her to other deities is disingenuous. She exists in a category all of her own.
It doesn't matter if she exists in a category all her own or not. The fact is that all deities are tyrants with regard to their portfolios, so singling one out and ignoring the others is disingenuous. With regards to the enforcement of her portfolio, Mystra is the same as Bane, Lathander, and Oghma.
And magic has continued to exist with Mystra dead. See the Time of Troubles, or everything since the Sellplague. Also, the goddess of magic has been replaced at least twice -- which kind of counters your argument that she can't be replaced. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2012 : 19:19:19
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@Chosen of Asmodeus - What was the point of quoting Wooly in his entirety and then not adding anything to it? 
Anyhow, I think the problem stems from FR being both a 'story world' and a game. As I've been reading through the Golarion CG I am intrigued (but not in love with) many of the setting's gods. They seem much more 'organic' in that they have multiple - sometimes incongruous - portfolios concerning all manner of stuff, and portfolios can and do overlap. This seems to me to be like how many deities in mythology were, which makes them somewhat more realistic. Their concerns are all over the place.
Only problem is, D&D is a game, and when you have two magic gods, or sky gods, etc... who wins in a fight? If their clergy stand on opposite ends of a desired result, we need some sort of rules-structure to figure out what happens. In 2e TSR simplified everything by saying Ao dictated that portfolios can't overlap. While this helps the game out greatly, it sorta takes all the realism out of the gods - each becomes a tyrant of a specific thing.
And there's the rub. I don't think we can have it both ways. We can go from the extreme of most Asian religions and have deities for each and every thing, or we can go to the opposite end with a Norse-like pantheon where nobody's really in-charge of anything. FR's pantheon is more like the Asian ones in set-up; there is a specific pecking-order and groups of mini-pantheons, and everyone has someone else they have to answer to (so Ao is like the Celestial Emperor). Personally, I prefer the 'loose' format of earlier editions - I really don't see a need to 'codify' every little thing. Unfortunately we will always have those players who want to pick fights with gods, which causes companies to stat gods, and ruin it for everyone else.
You want to know how to 'run a god'? It does whatever the hell the DM says it does, and if that means Istishia shows up juggling fireballs then that's what she does. I don't need to roll dice - these are GODS, for goshsakes! They need only one power when it comes to mortals - the b!tchslap.
EDIT: Almost forgot to make an on-topic point. 
There is no reason why we shouldn't have multiple deities of magic, AND Mystra. There's room for everybody. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Dec 2012 19:21:41 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2012 : 19:52:30
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| ...Ah, darn. That did happen, didn't it? My original post was quoting him and questioning the accuracy of his assertion that the other gods have complete nad total control over their portfolios. If they, then couldn't Cyric simply kill everyone on Toril, being the god of murder? |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2012 : 21:36:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It doesn't matter if she exists in a category all her own or not. The fact is that all deities are tyrants with regard to their portfolios, so singling one out and ignoring the others is disingenuous. With regards to the enforcement of her portfolio, Mystra is the same as Bane, Lathander, and Oghma.
Of course it matters. The issue isn't whether or not deities are "tyrants" with regard to their portfolios; the issue is that Mystra exists under a set of special rules. Ed has made clear that Mystra is special, and different from the other deities.
It's okay to like that fact, and embrace it. It's also equally okay to dislike that fact, and reject it. It's just not factual to call it a double-standard though, because Mystra exists and operates on a double-standard with regard to the other deities.
That's not an opinion, that's a canonical fact.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And magic has continued to exist with Mystra dead. See the Time of Troubles, or everything since the Sellplague. Also, the goddess of magic has been replaced at least twice -- which kind of counters your argument that she can't be replaced.
During the Time of Troubles, Mystra transferred her divine energy to Midnight, so technically Mystra wasn't dead. In Waterdeep Midnight ascended to full divinity, but she possessed Mystra's power before that fact.
We also don't possess the full amount of facts as to what happened during the Spellplague. We don't know why magic continued, but prior to 4E Ed was always very clear that Mystra IS magic, and that without Mystra magic would go poof with her.
Now, this may have been retconned with 4E, in which case you'd be correct that the argument would be less valid. However, we'd also have to examine the unique circumstances surrounding what took place. For all we know Ao himself intervened and decided to change the way magic worked at the moment of Mystra's death.
I'm hoping we'll get some glimmer of things with the events that surround the Sundering. However, prior to 4E this was not the case, and we had every reason to believe that if Mystra went poof - as she did during the Fall of Netheril - that magic would go poof with her.
That was the canon and established premise right up until the release of 4E. People are pretty entrenched over the issue now, so I doubt opinions would change much with regard to Mystra.
My personal opinion is that all deities should operate with the same set of rules set down by Ao. None of the deities should get a special status. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2012 : 22:08:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Well, I suppose he COULD, but if he DID, then what would he be the god of? You can't be god of murder with no one around to murder....
Doesn't have to be an all or nothing thing; Wooly offered the example Lathander blocking out the sun in a specific area. Cyric could just up and kill the population of the Dales or Waterdeep if he wanted.
Or lets go for a less final example; Talos-Gruumsh could unleash an unending storm on the Realms. Bane could inflict everyone with paralyzing fear. Lolth could cause spiders to breed out of control. Etc, etc. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2012 : 22:09:06
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Chosen of Asmodeus brings up a good point. If Cyric had the same power as Mystra he could murder anyone he wanted on a whim. What's to stop him from declaring war on any deity, ordering his faithful followers to attack them and then using his power as Lord of Murder to ensure that they have a 100% successful murder rate?
Also, let's not forget he's also the god of intrigue, strife, illusion, and lies. So, technically his faithful could kill anyone they wanted in broad daylight, in the middle of the street. Then when questioned, they could lie; "No I didn't!" Then because Cyric is the god of lies, every lie told by one of his faithful is 100% believable.
Obviously, this is ridiculous. Yet, if he played by the same rules as Mystra this is exactly how it would work.
Mystra can ensure that any spell cast by one of her faithful is always successful, for example. She could also, should she so desire, cut anyone she wanted (including other deities) off from magic. If Cyric were playing by the same rules, he could wish any deity he wanted dead - just as Mystra was able to cut him off from the Weave. |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2012 : 22:35:50
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| I think that to have only one god of one thing is a highly juvenile thing to do. Cosmology that has more depth to it has gods that have similar or nearly identical "portfolios" or are gods of shared "domains" are much more interesting that what has been in FR. Take a look at The Elder Scrolls (my favourite world/setting). Magnus, the god of magic, does not hold complete dominion of magic (there are no such things as "domains" or "portfolios" in that setting, thank the gods). Gods like Syrabane (an Altmeri ancestor god who was a great mage before his apotheosis) and Auri-El/Auriel (aka Akatosh, a lesser name for him) is associated with magic to an extremely high degree. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2012 : 22:41:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Well, I suppose he COULD, but if he DID, then what would he be the god of? You can't be god of murder with no one around to murder....
Or lets go for a less final example; Talos-Gruumsh could unleash an unending storm on the Realms. Bane could inflict everyone with paralyzing fear. Lolth could cause spiders to breed out of control. Etc, etc.
Or Sharess could induce all Cormyreans with unquenchable lust so they breed out of proportion, multiplying their population to horrendous numbers, likely worse than China's.
Really, it's just a matter of the designers' choice. And Ed's preference. Being the creator himself, his voice is heard above everybody else almost all the time. Given what we've seen in his fiction, it's obvious how special a place Mystra has in his heart. Whether it's a good or bad thing, it's up to you to decide...I, for the most part, would rather have ALL the gods go away, not just Mystra. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36912 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2012 : 22:47:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It doesn't matter if she exists in a category all her own or not. The fact is that all deities are tyrants with regard to their portfolios, so singling one out and ignoring the others is disingenuous. With regards to the enforcement of her portfolio, Mystra is the same as Bane, Lathander, and Oghma.
Of course it matters. The issue isn't whether or not deities are "tyrants" with regard to their portfolios; the issue is that Mystra exists under a set of special rules. Ed has made clear that Mystra is special, and different from the other deities.
It's okay to like that fact, and embrace it. It's also equally okay to dislike that fact, and reject it. It's just not factual to call it a double-standard though, because Mystra exists and operates on a double-standard with regard to the other deities.
That's not an opinion, that's a canonical fact.
No, the issue is her being a tyrant. The complaint I was responding to was about her being the only deity of magic and having total control of it. In other words, the complaint was about Mystra being the same as all other deities in regards to her portfolio.
And as I've pointed out, people make that complaint, but no one complains about Milil having total control over music or Selûne having total control over the moon.
Spin whatever you want about special sets of rules, but that's irrelevant to original complaint about Mystra being a tyrant. |
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2012 : 23:54:08
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Wooly, I think the first place that ever tried to give gods true control over their portfolio, as opposed to mere influence, was one of the Mystra-versus-Cyric novels (either Prince of Lies or Crucible), where the gods threatened absolute sanction against Mystra's worshipers. And that never really worked well with the rest of canon. I mean, as far back as "Down-to-earth divinity" in Dragon 54, you had Ed saying, "Although gods generally have awesome powers such as intraplanar travel and immortality, natural magical abilities, and greater personal attributes than other creatures, gods cannot transcend “the system”— at least, not without destroying game balance. Men, such as magic-users and those who control artifacts, may employ the same forces as gods; such forces are natural, part of the multiverse, and gods are therefore merely beings of much greater power, still bound by the system’s limitations." And "I also found it expedient to have overlapping portfolios among the gods. This allows strife among various priesthoods as the prominence of gods within a community or society changes, and allows both nonhuman deities (such as the elvish and centaur gods in the DDG) and human deities (such as the druids’ god or gods) to coexist, both granting spells to worshippers."
You mention Selûne having total control oover the moon. Did she? Hathor, Sehanie Moonbow, and Sharindlar were all simultaneously goddesses of the moon. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2012 : 00:04:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It doesn't matter if she exists in a category all her own or not. The fact is that all deities are tyrants with regard to their portfolios, so singling one out and ignoring the others is disingenuous. With regards to the enforcement of her portfolio, Mystra is the same as Bane, Lathander, and Oghma.
Of course it matters. The issue isn't whether or not deities are "tyrants" with regard to their portfolios; the issue is that Mystra exists under a set of special rules. Ed has made clear that Mystra is special, and different from the other deities.
It's okay to like that fact, and embrace it. It's also equally okay to dislike that fact, and reject it. It's just not factual to call it a double-standard though, because Mystra exists and operates on a double-standard with regard to the other deities.
That's not an opinion, that's a canonical fact.
No, the issue is her being a tyrant. The complaint I was responding to was about her being the only deity of magic and having total control of it. In other words, the complaint was about Mystra being the same as all other deities in regards to her portfolio.
And as I've pointed out, people make that complaint, but no one complains about Milil having total control over music or Selûne having total control over the moon.
Spin whatever you want about special sets of rules, but that's irrelevant to original complaint about Mystra being a tyrant.
Although I can't speak for everyone else who responded to you, the reason I responded to you is because you comments broadened themselves beyond what Aryalómë wrote.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
But when it comes to Mystra, all bets are off... If deity A does something, no one pays attention. If Mystra does the same thing, she's a tyrant, her Chosen are the Justice League and they're all Ed's Mary Sues, and their mere existence makes role-playing in the Realms pointless and boring.
I get really, really tired of this double-standard.
It was that last bit there that prompted my response. I'm not a mind reader, obviously, so I don't know if you intended for your comments to swing wider than Aryalómë's personal remarks. However, I took your response and tone to be directed to everyone who has criticisms (valid or not) against Mystra.
Still, you're right that Mystra exerts no more influence over her portfolio's than any other deity. She operates within the rules given to her; my problem is not with how she acts, but rather the double-standard that Mystra is allowed to operate with... I could careless what Mystra does; so long as other deities are given an equal amount of power, influence, and control over their portfolios.
In other words, if Mystra can cut off deities from the Weave; then it should logically follow that Cyric should be able to kill whatever deity he wants due to the fact that he's the deity of murder.
If one portfolio is elevating one deity above all others (the Weave portfolio), then the problem isn't with the deity; it's with the portfolio. It either needs to be broken up and dispersed among numerous deities, or alternatively, needs to be administered by Ao himself.
The deities should all be operating under the same set of rules. If Magic goes poof when Mystra dies; then if Shar dies all of Toril should be bathed in eternal sunlight. If Selune dies, the Moon should explode / disappear. If Chauntea dies, the planet dies with her. If Bane dies then Tyranny becomes impossible. If Cyric dies then murder and lying becomes impossible. If Lathander dies then there can never be another dawn.
...and this would continue until another deity becomes established with that portfolio.
I can only think of one other situation in which something similar to this has happened - when Bhaal died during the ToT, all the assassins on Toril died instantly with him. Of course, Bhaal wasn't the deity of Assassins, he was the deity of death. Therefore all death should have been made impossible.
My personal feeling, of course, is all of this is beyond silly. Thus, rather than giving all the deities ridiculous amounts of power over their portfolios as Mystra (who wants Cyric to be able to murder any deity on a whim?), the power given to Mystra needs to be restrained and toned down. The problem isn't that the other gods aren't powerful enough; it's that she was made too powerful. This becomes clear when you grant any other deity the same power over their portfolio as Mystra had over the Weave. |
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2012 : 00:15:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
I can only think of one other situation in which something similar to this has happened - when Bhaal died during the ToT, all the assassins on Toril died instantly with him. Of course, Bhaal wasn't the deity of Assassins, he was the deity of death. Therefore all death should have been made impossible.
Though death did become impossible between Cyric's overthrow and Kelemvor's ascension in Prince of Lies. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2012 : 00:55:35
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quote:
Originally posted by see
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
I can only think of one other situation in which something similar to this has happened - when Bhaal died during the ToT, all the assassins on Toril died instantly with him. Of course, Bhaal wasn't the deity of Assassins, he was the deity of death. Therefore all death should have been made impossible.
Though death did become impossible between Cyric's overthrow and Kelemvor's ascension in Prince of Lies.
Good point. I forgot about that.
Although these seem to be anomalies, because other deities don't seem to cause the same problems.
For example, Moander was the deity of Rotting Death, Decay, and Corruption. Moander has been destroyed numerous times, and yet we know that things like Decay and Corruption continued in the Realms in his absence.
When Amaunator faded away from lack of worship, Law and Order didn't vanish with him. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2012 : 05:22:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Well, I suppose he COULD, but if he DID, then what would he be the god of? You can't be god of murder with no one around to murder....
Or lets go for a less final example; Talos-Gruumsh could unleash an unending storm on the Realms. Bane could inflict everyone with paralyzing fear. Lolth could cause spiders to breed out of control. Etc, etc.
Or Sharess could induce all Cormyreans with unquenchable lust so they breed out of proportion, multiplying their population to horrendous numbers, likely worse than China's.
Really, it's just a matter of the designers' choice. And Ed's preference. Being the creator himself, his voice is heard above everybody else almost all the time. Given what we've seen in his fiction, it's obvious how special a place Mystra has in his heart. Whether it's a good or bad thing, it's up to you to decide...I, for the most part, would rather have ALL the gods go away, not just Mystra.
Personally I feel that Ed's preferences ceased to matter the day he sold the rights to the realms to allow it to become a D&D setting. Once he no longer owned it, his opinion and interpretation of it became no more or less valid than any other fan, though with Wizards putting him in charge of the 5e creative team, that's changing.
I mean no disrespect towards Ed when I say that, I do hold the man in high regards. I just feel that sometimes he's held up to be the victim when he made an informed business arrangement by selling the rights to his setting.
I've said multiple times in this thread that I feel leaving Mystra dead is the better decision both from a thematic story perspective and from a gameplay perspective. I'm sure Ed would strongly disagree with me on those points, and I'm certainly not suggesting I know better than he does. Just my opinion.
I do somewhat agree with Dennis in regards to the gods; not that I want them to go away, just that I want them to take a step back out of the spotlight, have them be more distant and less hands on with the world. I'd like there to be a greater sense of wonder and mystery and unknowable-ness to them. And that seems to be the direction they're going in, I just hope Mystra's included in it.
I think that's one of my problems with Mystra; despite being the lady of mysteries, there's noting mysterious about her. She's the most indepth, heavily explored deity in the setting.
But just on the wider scale, lets take the "Talos was really Gruumsh the whole time" thing. As much as I liked that, being a huge Gruumsh fan, I would have preferred it if they had presented it more under the context of Gruumsh and Talos simply being the different ways humans and orcs interpreted the same god rather than explicitly saying that Gruumsh was posing as this other god to fool the humans, and things like that. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2012 : 06:59:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Good point. I forgot about that.
I personally think the best way to handle it would be to throw out the Prince of Lies/Crucible approach and lean on the Down-to-Earth Divinity approach from Dragon #54, such that prepared and powerful wizards could actively contest with the gods in matters involving the deity's portfolio.
But I'm sure WotC doesn't want to handle the setting as a whole the way I'd do things, and I have no idea which way of handling gods would be best compatible with their approach. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12094 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2012 : 12:30:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
@Chosen of Asmodeus - What was the point of quoting Wooly in his entirety and then not adding anything to it?
Anyhow, I think the problem stems from FR being both a 'story world' and a game. As I've been reading through the Golarion CG I am intrigued (but not in love with) many of the setting's gods. They seem much more 'organic' in that they have multiple - sometimes incongruous - portfolios concerning all manner of stuff, and portfolios can and do overlap. This seems to me to be like how many deities in mythology were, which makes them somewhat more realistic. Their concerns are all over the place.
Only problem is, D&D is a game, and when you have two magic gods, or sky gods, etc... who wins in a fight? If their clergy stand on opposite ends of a desired result, we need some sort of rules-structure to figure out what happens. In 2e TSR simplified everything by saying Ao dictated that portfolios can't overlap. While this helps the game out greatly, it sorta takes all the realism out of the gods - each becomes a tyrant of a specific thing.
And there's the rub. I don't think we can have it both ways. We can go from the extreme of most Asian religions and have deities for each and every thing, or we can go to the opposite end with a Norse-like pantheon where nobody's really in-charge of anything. FR's pantheon is more like the Asian ones in set-up; there is a specific pecking-order and groups of mini-pantheons, and everyone has someone else they have to answer to (so Ao is like the Celestial Emperor). Personally, I prefer the 'loose' format of earlier editions - I really don't see a need to 'codify' every little thing. Unfortunately we will always have those players who want to pick fights with gods, which causes companies to stat gods, and ruin it for everyone else.
You want to know how to 'run a god'? It does whatever the hell the DM says it does, and if that means Istishia shows up juggling fireballs then that's what she does. I don't need to roll dice - these are GODS, for goshsakes! They need only one power when it comes to mortals - the b!tchslap.
EDIT: Almost forgot to make an on-topic point.
There is no reason why we shouldn't have multiple deities of magic, AND Mystra. There's room for everybody.
I agree with most of this except one thing.... Mystra crossed pantheons in her control of the weave. It was a question I used to see a lot on the forums and it was always answered that Thoth was not her equivalent.
As to your idea of overlapping being better, I like this idea, which is why I denoted the general idea of "spell constructs" being managed by multiple deities with a "tie" to that spell's "portfolio" (i.e. the idea that a necromantic wizard spell that infects a person with a mummy rot disease could be managed by Talona, Velsharoon, Azuth, Mystra, Thoth, Kiaransalee, Yurtrus, Set, and possibly other deities like Corellon who are considered gods of magic in their own pantheons). What controls this kind of thing is that there are probably certain constraints that prevent certain degrees of modification by a deity (i.e. the general "phyics" of the universe as pertains to magic... the physics of which may change with time, unlike real world physics), as well as the ability to "lock" a construct. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Do we need a god/dess of magic?
