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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Oct 2012 : 20:51:31
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Fellow scribes,
I'm grappling with some ideas surrounding the Drow assault on Blingdenstone in 1370/1371 (at the cusp of 3E) as I've laid out on another thread (for those inclined to offer some advice):
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16788
My consideration of that attack has lead me to ponder what method of summoning and employing demons en masse as 'shock troops' for an army over a sustained period of time the Drow of Menzoberranzan might have employed. I know the answers to my questions rely to some degree on the game system I employ but, this being D&D, there are certain similarities that exist across all the game systems when it comes to summoning demons. Those limitations imposed by those similarities need to be overcome no matter which rules set is used (I'm using 3.5/Pathfinder just as an FYI).
My main issue is the method used to summon a 'horde' of demons. It's one thing for a caster to call a demon (or three) for a task, but it is quite another for a horde of several dozen (to over a hundred!) bebeliths (high HD demons to be sure) to be summoned either at once, or over time frames that overlap, and wield them together into a co-ordinated military force (well, as co-ordinated as a 'point and shoot' horde of demons can be anyway).
The source materials (read the above thread for a well researched analysis of them by BEAST) make clear that the combined forces of 6 of Menzoberranzan's great houses (lead by the first house) employed the full might of their priestesses and wizards to both summon and bind the demons in question. From a game standpoint, that means Planar Ally spells (or the like) for the priestesses and Planar Binding spells (or the like) for the wizards. Those are 4th and 5th level spells respectively (for even the lesser versions) requiring 7th to 9th level casters (and thus limiting the number of priestesses and wizards who can participate by casting them).
Their maximum durations are both 1/day per level of the caster for the most complex tasks requested (sacking a city would likely be a somewhat complex undertaking). They also require great wealth for components (nothing 6 houses acting together under the blessing of Lolth couldn't manage) and proximity to the caster (the demon must be called within roughly 50 feet of the caster) to function.
No doubt ritual spell casting could be employed to gin up 'greater' versions of the spells capable of calling multiple demons at once (and possibly extending durations as needed). That still doesn't get us past the time and space limitations needed to pull off the feat. Those demons can't be summoned remotely. You need to be 'up close and personal' and magic of that sort also takes time to cast (the original spells call for a 10 minute casting time).
The Drow assault on Blingdenstone was a massive surprise assault. It overwhelmed the city so effectively (despite it's very effective defenses) because the deep gnomes didn't see it coming until it was much too late for them to organize a defense (or stage a retreat as they had done in the past). That would require a whole host of 'black ops' work on the part of the Drow to blind the deep gnome intelligence network, spoof their patrols, and slip past their wards and patrolling elementals.
The Drow are certainly no slouches at espionage (despite their clear failure to avoid warning the deep gnomes that they were marching to war when they attacked Mithral Hall in 1358...), so one can assume they managed to employ false rumors, turn or capture spies, obtain a mole or two, keep deep gnome patrols off guard, and come up with a way past (as opposed to through) the deep gnome defenses and into the heart of the city (using gates or the like as detailed in the other thread).
However, that still doesn't solve my main problem, how the hell (or how the abyss) do you get an army of demons close enough to the city of Blingdenstone to launch an attack without letting the whole world know about it?
The march from Menzoberranzan to Blingdenstone (for an army anyway) probably takes around 8 days (with an inside of 6 and an outside of 10). Do you summon your demons in Menzoberranzan and march them that far? Or, do you find a spot big enough and near enough (within less than a day) of Blingdenstone, take it with your regular army, blind Blingdenstone's patrols, and summon your army of demons from there?
Each strategy has it's strengths and weaknesses.
My question thus is: how do you manage the technical aspects of the summoning and then get your army in place for a surprise attack? Your thoughts?
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Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2012 : 21:25:48
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Well some armies are small, what they lack in numbers they make up in power. If you play the highest level caster is only level 10, many demons controlled clearly is logistic problem.
As for summoning in that could be summoned after in city or invisibility used. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2012 : 21:47:03
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| Demons are an uncontrollable mass of destruction and violence given physical form. Marching an army of them undetected would be boarderline impossible. The less time you have to manage them, the better. The sooner you can throw them at whatever you want smashed, the better. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 05:59:31
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| Perhaps they also utilized scrolls of summoning and had a prior arrangements with Lolth. Perhaps she "lent" them the bebiliths? |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Chambers
Acolyte
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 18:12:09
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I'm not familiar with the details of that battle but here's how I'd do it.
Arrange beforehand with the specific extraplanar creatures you want to be at the battle. This can be done through Planar Ally, Planar Binding, or Gate and similar spells. Or you could Plane Shift to the plane and speak with them in person (not recommended). Once the deal has been arranged have them ready themselves at a specific place on their plane.
March your regular army to the battle and get them in positions. Once you're ready cast Gate, using the Planar Travel mode, to the predetermined location of your Extraplanar Army. Have a couple Gates up at once to make the process faster. Gates open and your Extraplanar forces step through. Once they are there, there's no time limit on how long they can stay and no Hit Dice limit on how many you can bring through. |
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 18:29:14
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Chambers,
I'd worry about a 'Hellgate Keep' style situation developing if I let 36 to 72 (or more) bebiliths free to walk the prime without VERY specific limits on how long they can stay and what they can do while they are there. They are the size of elephants! (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/bebilith). Sure, I have Lolth 'backing my play', but she's not sending an avatar to get them back in their box when they are done chewing on the gnomes... After all, for the attack on Mithral Hall, she only contracted with one demon for the service of one other! |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
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Chambers
Acolyte
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 18:42:56
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I don't really understand the problem then, I guess. Standard Planar Ally, Planar Binding and Summon Monster spells can bring in the number of demons needed, provided you have enough spellcasters and/or scrolls of the spells.
How many spellcasters did the drow have that could bring in the demons? I think that will largely determine the game mechanics used.
Edit Also, how long do you need the demons? |
Edited by - Chambers on 04 Oct 2012 18:44:01 |
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2012 : 18:03:16
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Chambers,
The Drow have the resources of 6 of the top 8 houses and the three academies. So, a decent supply of casters (although the number with 5th level spells is still well under 100 I'd wager). The demons are needed either for one day, if summoned near Blingdenstone and let loose there, or for a week if conjured in Menzo and marched to Blingdenstone.
Those are both reasons I'm leaning towards the 'closer to Blingdenstone' model. |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 17:16:10
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Chambers,
The Drow have the resources of 6 of the top 8 houses and the three academies. So, a decent supply of casters (although the number with 5th level spells is still well under 100 I'd wager). The demons are needed either for one day, if summoned near Blingdenstone and let loose there, or for a week if conjured in Menzo and marched to Blingdenstone.
Those are both reasons I'm leaning towards the 'closer to Blingdenstone' model. |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 13:00:04
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| Well, if I were the drow, I'd summon the demons as late as possible. Wouldn't want an angry bebilith to eat me, would I? |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2014 : 19:59:39
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Hello all,
I recently posted a short story detailing how the attack on the city was handled by the PCs in my home campaign based, in part, upon the advice I received from all of you here in this thread! If you'd care to see how said advice was reflected in the story, and how it all played out, please feel free to take a peek at the thread.
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=18961
Thanks again for all of your input on this issue! |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2014 : 23:07:02
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Ah, people oft forget that all but the lowliest of fiends possess a very potent ability: they can Gate in others of their own (or a lesser) kind.
A pit-fiend visiting a Prime would likely summon a small army of servitor demons as quickly as possible. More power at his command when it‘s time to betray the fool who summoned him. And these lesser demons would in turn summon their own entourage of underlings, and so forth. All it takes is time.
No need for the drow to individually summon every fiend, nor is any sort of summon-demon-horde magic necessary ... they need only bring in their demonic generals. These generals will happily summon their captains and overseers and peons and other reinforcements, if given a chance.
Traditional drow were aligned with Lolth (aka Lloth), so it seems likely the priestesses would be summoning and binding the big guns. The male archmages might technically be equally capable, but would nonetheless probably be subjugated to lower echelons of command. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2014 : 05:23:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Ah, people oft forget that all but the lowliest of fiends possess a very potent ability: they can Gate in others of their own (or a lesser) kind.
A pit-fiend visiting a Prime would likely summon a small army of servitor demons as quickly as possible. More power at his command when it‘s time to betray the fool who summoned him. And these lesser demons would in turn summon their own entourage of underlings, and so forth. All it takes is time.
No need for the drow to individually summon every fiend, nor is any sort of summon-demon-horde magic necessary ... they need only bring in their demonic generals. These generals will happily summon their captains and overseers and peons and other reinforcements, if given a chance.
Traditional drow were aligned with Lolth (aka Lloth), so it seems likely the priestesses would be summoning and binding the big guns. The male archmages might technically be equally capable, but would nonetheless probably be subjugated to lower echelons of command.
It's logical to assume that there is some sort of limitation on that, because otherwise a single balor could summon half of the Abyss, given enough time. We had a discussion about it, here, a few years ago, and concluded there must be some sort of one-step rule: the first one to the Prime could do his normal summons, but the ones he called could not summon more, since they themselves were connected to the first one. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 07 Mar 2014 05:28:50 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2427 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2014 : 12:43:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Kris the Grey
Chambers,
The Drow have the resources of 6 of the top 8 houses and the three academies. So, a decent supply of casters (although the number with 5th level spells is still well under 100 I'd wager). The demons are needed either for one day, if summoned near Blingdenstone and let loose there, or for a week if conjured in Menzo and marched to Blingdenstone.
Those are both reasons I'm leaning towards the 'closer to Blingdenstone' model.
Add the purely military reasons.
Logistics problems: it's troublesome enough to march local troops alone, especially through tunnels. Dilute them with summons, and you have these problems aggravated and a few new ones added on top.
Deployment: summoning at the destination is good as quick beefing up of numbers to cover the choke points and foothold for the normal army. The troops marching all the way on that road block each other.
So, if the summons are "shock troops" and "siege weapons", the optimal usage would be a miniature deep operation with some tweaks.
1) Mobile forces / vanguard. Scouts (find guards and cut their throats, find traps and environmental surprises, etc), spellcasters, their bodyguard squads, little to no support, nothing slow. They play the spearhead, pure and simple.
1.1: Crash past or through the guards - as fast and far as possible, with minimum noise. The resistance that can't hinder or communicate is destroyed or blocked (using spells or mobile guard detachments) until main forces arrive - whichever is quicker. The resistance actually standing on the way must be crushed fast, with heavy summons and spells. Above all, don't get bogged down - it's better to throw around wasteful overkills than to lose time. These forces will step back when the main battle starts anyway.
1.2: Once on the target, or stopped with major forces, summon a wave of shock troops and cover them with magic.
2) Main forces. Normal troops that have to arrive, sort and all, under cover of shock troops.
2.1: Deploy their own guard. Summon reinforcements if and when needed only.
2.2: Mop up any minor resistance the vanguard missed. Assume battle formations.
2.3: When the solid resistance is met, summon something tougher for crushing it.
2.4: Advance. Summon low-level reserves when needed to plug poles, send summoned shock troops to break up the opposing forces if it looks like they might organize an efficient defence sometime soon. Actual capture of the area is a job for those who know what they do and can be neat and thorough - the coordinated army.
You see how it fits in with the drow style. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2014 : 17:12:09
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Gents,
The ultimate strategic/tactical considerations I took into account in deciding how the drow would attack the city were as follows:
- they would need a way to attack the city both from without (to keep the gnomes bottled up) and from within (to circumvent the bulk of the extremely deadly gnomish defenses)
- the attack would involve forces from all 6 of the 8 major houses that committed to it, but would be lead largely by House Baenre (as they were the prime movers and wanted to bear the lions share of the credit, so would need to take the lions share of the risks)
- the attack would heavily rely on summoned demons, particularly bebiliths (based on canon) - which makes sense as it was 1) sanctioned by Lolth and 2) the drow would be particularly risk adverse about their own casualties in light of the last drow attack on Mithral Hall (from which they were still recovering to some degree)
- armies of demons are very hard to manage, and they don't mix well with live troops, so you'd want a way to have them around only when you needed them and a way to keep their actions separate from your regular soldiers - use them as shock troops/a force of pure terror and destruction away from your own army
- in order to get demons into the city the drow would need some way through the massive system of wards that the deep gnomes placed around it and the army of elementals in place to protect those wards (see DDGTU for details)
- the drow would also seek to paralyze gnomish command and control by somehow neutralizing the gnomish leadership so as to keep the gnomish defenders off guard and stop them trying to evacuate the city in an effective fashion
So, with all of those strategic imperatives in mind, here is the assault plan I came up with.
1) achieve as much tactical surprise as possible by keeping the full extent of your movements a secret for as long as you can - I had this done by having the drow (using the services of Bregan D'aerthe) hire duergar mercenaries to raid deep gnomish caravans in and out of town and take over the nearest crossroads intersections to the surface (cutting off contact with the dwarves, etc) and make it appear as though the city was merely being harassed by duergar bandits instead of something more sinister
2) when the attack did come, draw gnomish eyes (and efforts) away from the real threat by having a small army of dark elven fighters and conjured fiendish spiders begin a protracted assault against the front gates of the city
3) get past the gnomish teleport wards by smuggling into the city a small but very potent magical device (crafted by no less than the Archmage of House Baenre himself) that could be used as a focus to teleport a single being (with a small force in a portable hole) through the wards and into the city - the ideal place for such a device to go off would be near the deep gnomish throne room (as you'd burst into the heart of gnomish command and control)
4) that small force would consist of 5 demons, 4 yochlols and a glabrezu - whose job it would be to a) kill the king and his key advisors while the deep gnomes were focused on their gates and b) open two other gates into the city from within the city itself - preferably in far flung corners of town where you could build up a gated in army before the defenders could muster to stop you (or even fully understand their peril)
5) your yochlols would open the two gates, small elite strike forces of Baenre females would pass through and widen the gates with clerical magics, and then your army of summoned bebiliths (conjured into a safe 'holding pen' in or near Menzoberranzan so they didn't need to be moved) would pour through those open gates and into the city - they would be under orders to simply spread out and slaughter as many gnomes as possible to spread terror, disrupt a retreat, and scatter the deep gnomish defenders
6) once the king and his commanders were dead, the city was in panic, and the forces at the front gates started to collapse, the drow main force could enter the city at their leisure to loot, take slaves, etc or simply wait at all the tunnels out of the city and scoop up gnomish civilians attempting to escape in groups as slaves.
Once I had that plan in place, the question was what would/could the PCs do to stop it? Especially since at least one of them knew an attack was coming, but no one knew exactly how it would play out (as the actual details of the attack had never been explicitly scripted out).
The PCs arrived at the city (stopping there on their way to Mantol Derith on an utterly unrelated errand) after having run afoul of two major groups of duergar raiders. They reported to the King and Council what they saw of the raiders and, being the heroic types, they offered to help the city with their 'duergar problem' not realizing (yet) that it was ever so much more than that. They figured they'd kill the last of the duergar and head out to straight away to attend to their mission in Mantol Derith.
In so doing, they became entangled in the behind the scenes intrigue underway, and drew the attention of the deep gnomish traitor that B'DA had recruited to eventually smuggle the ward piercing 'gem' into the city (the traitor thought he was doing his people a service and promoting peace). The traitor volunteered to lead a small deep gnomish force that was to accompany the PCs to aid them crushing the final duergar force occupying the strategic crossroads near the city.
In the course of that final battle, the PCs discovered a) the involvement of the drow and b) the identity of the deep gnomish traitor when they sprung an ambush against the PCs (trying to kill them all) along with the final batch of duergar. The PCs defeated the ambush, slew the duergar and most of the small B'DA drow force (taking a prisoner or two), and captured the gnomish traitor (without quite realizing why he had betrayed them). Figuring they had solved the problem, they then headed off to complete the mission they had come to achieve in Mantol Derith. However, two other things happened…
1) A certain overly clever NPC wizard traveling with the PCs (who had agreed to serve as a message courier and unofficial 'good will ambassador' to the deep gnomes on behalf of Lady Alustriel) decided to play at being 'James Bond' and used the presence of the drow as a convenient opportunity to attempt to infiltrate (basically magic jarred into the body of one of the B'DA drow) the city of Menzoberranzan to see why the drow were there in the first place…
and more unfortunately…
2) One of the PCs, who was a rabid fanboy of RAS (and all things dark elf) decided to parlay with one of the captured B'DA operatives in an attempt to become 'pals' with them. This lead the B'DA forces, who were otherwise pretty tweaked about the failure of their plans to that point, to become aware that the now potentially friendly PC was headed to Mantol Derith, which just happened to be where a certain charismatic dark elf was concluding a bit of business…
I'll spare the rest of the details of what happened and merely direct you to the story I posted about it all on this thread (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=18961) so you can enjoy it in a more narrative (and hopefully entertaining) format! Do let me know what you thought of my little schemes. As I said, I came to this plan in part through the input of you folks, so thank you for that! |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2427 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2014 : 20:25:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Kris the Grey
- the drow would also seek to paralyze gnomish command and control by somehow neutralizing the gnomish leadership so as to keep the gnomish defenders off guard and stop them trying to evacuate the city in an effective fashion
Evacuate where? It's a cave system. All tunnels to the city accessible to the drow forces and auxiliaries are teeming with them. If some aren't... well, there's wild Underdark. Where they'd go, and how fast?
quote:
1) achieve as much tactical surprise as possible by keeping the full extent of your movements a secret for as long as you can - I had this done by having the drow (using the services of Bregan D'aerthe) hire duergar mercenaries to raid deep gnomish caravans in and out of town and take over the nearest crossroads intersections to the surface (cutting off contact with the dwarves, etc) and make it appear as though the city was merely being harassed by duergar bandits instead of something more sinister
Drow vanguards should look like "mere opportunistic raiders", yes.
Auxiliaries are a good point, too.
quote:
2) when the attack did come, draw gnomish eyes (and efforts) away from the real threat by having a small army of dark elven fighters and conjured fiendish spiders begin a protracted assault against the front gates of the city
They can't know where chances are the best, and drow aren't inclined to put all eggs into one basket anyway. So they would execute the break-in correctly: come from all available paths, and where they manage to break through, get a force rampaging behind the lines, distracting and disrupting the defenders. Suddenly summoned bands of fiends are perfect for this task. Others (invluding spellcasters) need to advance at least enough to secure the opened hole.
quote:
3) get past the gnomish teleport wards by smuggling into the city a small but very potent magical device (crafted by no less than the Archmage of House Baenre himself) that could be used as a focus to teleport a single being (with a small force in a portable hole) through the wards and into the city - the ideal place for such a device to go off would be near the deep gnomish throne room (as you'd burst into the heart of gnomish command and control)
Teleport? It's the Underdark.
Also, why get one small team through only to immediately bog it down in a high-risk mission? There's a more important task: to open the gates for others. Then they can send more infiltrator teams in, using invisibility or shapeshifting.
quote:
4) that small force would consist of 5 demons, 4 yochlols and a glabrezu - whose job it would be to a) kill the king and his key advisors while the deep gnomes were focused on their gates and b) open two other gates into the city from within the city itself - preferably in far flung corners of town where you could build up a gated in army before the defenders could muster to stop you (or even fully understand their peril)
If it's possible to infiltrate, the real job would be done by invisible or shapeshifting spellcasters (maybe helped by yochlol) - they'll reach gates or other sensitive areas and start summoning right there. If they open a passage, great. If not - it still counts as yet another "distract & disrupt" strike. But between enchantments plus yochlol for takeover and bebilith for plain crushing, and with some advantage of surprise, they are likely to break through.
quote:
5) your yochlols would open the two gates, small elite strike forces of Baenre females would pass through and widen the gates with clerical magics, and then your army of summoned bebiliths (conjured into a safe 'holding pen' in or near Menzoberranzan so they didn't need to be moved)
Theat's rather far from Menzoberranzan. So they would need to be moved. No, all heavy summoning should happen as close to the targets as can be safely done.
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would pour through those open gates and into the city - they would be under orders to simply spread out and slaughter as many gnomes as possible to spread terror, disrupt a retreat, and scatter the deep gnomish defenders
Bebilith are ludicrous overkill for this. Probably even babau are. Merely to run around, randomly herding crowds and distracting the defenders? Just about anything fast would do - starting with a flock of quasits, or even mephits. 
quote:
6) once the king and his commanders were dead, the city was in panic, and the forces at the front gates started to collapse, the drow main force could enter the city at their leisure to loot, take slaves, etc or simply wait at all the tunnels out of the city
They can't sit and wait, they must at least secure the passages. Any opened hole may be closed, and any summon may be dismissed.
quote:
drew the attention of the deep gnomish traitor that B'DA had recruited to eventually smuggle the ward piercing 'gem' into the city (the traitor thought he was doing his people a service and promoting peace). The traitor volunteered to lead a small deep gnomish force that was to accompany the PCs to aid them crushing the final duergar force occupying the strategic crossroads near the city.[...] the identity of the deep gnomish traitor when they sprung an ambush against the PCs (trying to kill them all)
Too fanciful. An enchantment is more readily available, quite affordable and (once set in and tested) reliable. And if they can do it once, why not more? But again - teleports don't work either way, and wards can be dispelled by advancing spellcasters, so why bother and risk very early discovery at all? |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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A fiendish question...
