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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 17:35:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Erik, while we're at it, did you also write the side bar "Corellon, Gruumsh, and Lolth" that appears in the section on Arvandor in The Plane Above?
I believe so, though I also seem to recall that particular piece of lore was heavily edited from my original intention. It's been a couple years, and I don't regularly refer to that book (seeing as it's not a Realms book).
Cheers
Gotcha.
That particular side bar was a bit of a hot button with me. On one hand it's one of the earlier 4e implications that Gruumsh and Corellon had a connection and were possibly brothers, and I found the implication that Lolth's turn to evil was partly inspired by her having an affair with Gruumsh before the Dawn War.
On the other hand, I found the one line about Gruumsh having never severely injured Corellon in battle to be *beyond* annoying, which is one of the reasons why I so enjoyed the later Dragon Magazine article about the two. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 18:29:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Erik, while we're at it, did you also write the side bar "Corellon, Gruumsh, and Lolth" that appears in the section on Arvandor in The Plane Above?
I believe so, though I also seem to recall that particular piece of lore was heavily edited from my original intention. It's been a couple years, and I don't regularly refer to that book (seeing as it's not a Realms book).
Gotcha.
That particular side bar was a bit of a hot button with me. On one hand it's one of the earlier 4e implications that Gruumsh and Corellon had a connection and were possibly brothers, and I found the implication that Lolth's turn to evil was partly inspired by her having an affair with Gruumsh before the Dawn War.
On the other hand, I found the one line about Gruumsh having never severely injured Corellon in battle to be *beyond* annoying, which is one of the reasons why I so enjoyed the later Dragon Magazine article about the two.
To offer a little "behind the screen" insight into my personal version of Corellon/Gruumsh, here we go.
I picture the two as belonging to the Seelie court, both being beautiful and powerful but very different: Corellon was noble and honorable, while Gruumsh (who originally had a different name) was ruthless and would win at any cost. By definition, they were "brothers," in the sense that they were of the same family of fey entities.
Neither was "good" and neither was "evil"--those standards of morality don't exist for the Fey, and it's only been after their interaction with non-fey races that they've taken on a moral dimension. What we had was "law" and "chaos," and the Seelie court generally represented "chaos" as opposed to the more lawful mechanisms of the universe. But definitely there was a difference between the two, and it made them first an excellent partnership and ultimately tragic, eternal foes.
They were rivals for the affections of a beautiful lady fey named Araushnee, who was drawn to both of them. Araushnee was a flighty, treacherous creature--not evil, necessarily, but chaotic in the extreme. She played the two against each other, but ultimately she refused to choose, leading them to duel for her. This epic duel ended up in the mythology of the elves and of the orcs, as it led to the creation of their races.
Araushnee stuck with the victor (as she always does), and the losing brother was expelled from the land of Faerie to become the entity we call Gruumsh, a founding member of the Unseelie Court. He has hated Corellon ever since (the feeling being mutual), in part because of their contradictory natures (each being the opposite mirror of the other) and also over the oldest reason in the book: the love of a dangerous woman.
It's a little Once and Future Kingish Arthur vs. Lancelot re: Guineviere (though Gwen's considerably darker in this story), but you get the idea.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 19:06:40
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| That's an interesting way of looking at it. While I still have mixed feelings about them being brothers (seems like a lot of new lore to me), I like how--at least IMO--this makes the "blame" mroe even, and they were acting on their nature: law vs chaos. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 19:20:58
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| There's nothing wrong with new lore. When you're talking about beings that are literally hundreds of thousands of years old at the least, it's impossible to ever have the full story- you'd die of old age long before you were done reading. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 20:40:50
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
That's an interesting way of looking at it. While I still have mixed feelings about them being brothers (seems like a lot of new lore to me), I like how--at least IMO--this makes the "blame" mroe even, and they were acting on their nature: law vs chaos.
Well, I don't think Corellon represents "law"--it's more like chaos vs. chaos as prompted by chaos.
And I'm not proposing or promoting this as the way the gods should be--it's just an alternate take on them that happens to appeal to me, and it is how I handle them at my own D&D table.
As mortals, there's really no way to know the full truth of the matter. Who's going to tell the story? Corellon? Gruumsh? Lolth? Which of them has the most credibility? The story reflects exceedingly poorly on all of them (except perhaps Lolth, as her priestesses can be proud their spider queen pulled the wool over the eyes of two stupid male deities), and would only damage their religious followings.
When it comes to game design, I am generally of the "this is what people say" camp, rather than the "this is what the encyclopedia says." I am comfortable with that level of ambiguity, which I believe aids DMs who want to contradict it without feeling like they're "doing it wrong."
When it comes to novels, this is one of those things that should probably never be actually explained in anything like encyclopedic detail. Conflicting stories are fine, and even writing holy books that claim to have all the answers are fine, but we shouldn't demand universal truth from deities whose very existence defies mortal understanding.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 21:01:49
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| I have felt for a long time that Law and Lawful is a bit of a misnomer in the alignment system, and that they should rename it Order. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 22:56:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
That's an interesting way of looking at it. While I still have mixed feelings about them being brothers (seems like a lot of new lore to me), I like how--at least IMO--this makes the "blame" mroe even, and they were acting on their nature: law vs chaos.
Well, I don't think Corellon represents "law"--it's more like chaos vs. chaos as prompted by chaos.
And I'm not proposing or promoting this as the way the gods should be--it's just an alternate take on them that happens to appeal to me, and it is how I handle them at my own D&D table.
As mortals, there's really no way to know the full truth of the matter. Who's going to tell the story? Corellon? Gruumsh? Lolth? Which of them has the most credibility? The story reflects exceedingly poorly on all of them (except perhaps Lolth, as her priestesses can be proud their spider queen pulled the wool over the eyes of two stupid male deities), and would only damage their religious followings.
When it comes to game design, I am generally of the "this is what people say" camp, rather than the "this is what the encyclopedia says." I am comfortable with that level of ambiguity, which I believe aids DMs who want to contradict it without feeling like they're "doing it wrong."
When it comes to novels, this is one of those things that should probably never be actually explained in anything like encyclopedic detail. Conflicting stories are fine, and even writing holy books that claim to have all the answers are fine, but we shouldn't demand universal truth from deities whose very existence defies mortal understanding.
Cheers
True, Corellon is technically a CG anyway, or at least he has been. I'd have to go look at my copy of FRCG to see if he is still that or if it's changed to "Unalgined". I know that happened to some of the deities.
I thin I'm starting to understand your point now. All the stories will probably have some truths (and some lies?), in them. And then maybe in putting them all together, we'd get the really story, but neither elves, orcs, or drow are going to want to do that. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2012 : 05:06:13
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In 4e core Corellon is unaligned, which is a catch all for the neutral alignments. In the realms he's "good", which is a combination of neutral and chaotic good.
But yea, contradictory stories are the back bone of deities. They call it myth for a reason. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Arvandor: core vs. FR
