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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

The ones in drow cities are usually there for trade- be it of slaves, magic, or other goods. They are not ALLIES, but they are considered "useful" by the drow, at times.

BTW, I was not refering to asexual reproduction, but to the fact that they cannot reproduce AT ALL without a host body for the "tadpole" to mature in. Only parasites require another living creature in which to grow their offspring. And it's not falacy that higher orders of animals are superior, from an evolutionary view. higher creatures are often more adaptable, as they are able to alter behavior to fit the environment, many can and do use tools or live in complex social groups, and yes, communication. A species able to do these things is more likely to survive changes to the environment.

I have a hard time believing that illithids would survive in the Underdark at all if not for the presence of the humanoid races like drow, duergars, and deep gnomes, heck, even orcs and goblins. Without those otehr races available to use for reproduction and food (I can only think of a very few actuall creatures that do this, and they are all parasitic insects), illithids would die out completely. That's a HUGE survival drawback in a place as dangerous as the Underdark. I'd even call them an evolutionary dead-end, since if the races they depend on were to leave the Underdark, they would not only starve, but be utterly unable to reproduce. That makes no sense to me, either from a design standpoint, or biological one. Too reliant on outside factors for survival. I prefer the original version where they simply matured over time in the ppol, and emerged after ten years as fuuly developed. It's more biologically sound.

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Actually, without humanoid races to use for ceremorphosis, we wouldn't have mind flayers -- but there would be other illithid races. Mind flayers are simply the most common form.

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Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

Don't they all reproduce the same way? I'm aware of the "bestial" forms, but they are just illithids that ended up in animals or other unintelligent creatures, IIRC. The point is it's not very realistic that mind flayers, or any of the others could exist. Somehow that just doesn't seem very "superior" to me, as it's entirely too dependant on using other creatures as both food osurce AND incubator. YMMV. As I said, it seems way too inspired by the Aleins movies.

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Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

Makes more sens to me than turning another entire creature into one of them. If they are made from body-snatching, then one would think that there would be many different forms depending on the "donor" body, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

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Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

I have a hard time believing that illithids would survive in the Underdark at all if not for the presence of the humanoid races like drow, duergars, and deep gnomes, heck, even orcs and goblins. Without those otehr races available to use for reproduction and food (I can only think of a very few actuall creatures that do this, and they are all parasitic insects), illithids would die out completely.

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Originally posted by Kris the Grey

I suspect that somewhere in the 2E timeframe a decision was made that since the two big baddies of 'space' (aka Spelljammer), Illithids and Neogi, were effectively 'aliens' that they should be designed in truly alien ways. I suppose, this also being a timeframe in which the xenomorphs from the Aliens (and Predator) series of films were quite popular, it seemed logical to require both of those races to recruit humanoids as food and reproduction fodder (in a twist on the classic 50's 'Mars Needs Women' sort of way).

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Kris the Grey

I suspect that somewhere in the 2E timeframe a decision was made that since the two big baddies of 'space' (aka Spelljammer), Illithids and Neogi, were effectively 'aliens' that they should be designed in truly alien ways. I suppose, this also being a timeframe in which the xenomorphs from the Aliens (and Predator) series of films were quite popular, it seemed logical to require both of those races to recruit humanoids as food and reproduction fodder (in a twist on the classic 50's 'Mars Needs Women' sort of way).

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Illithids predate Spelljammer. I'm pretty sure they predate 2E, in fact.

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I think it's safe to assume illithids were inspired by Cthulhu.

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Originally posted by Sightless

You know Karl Windaten said the same thing about viruses , those things that require a host to survive and reproduce, back in 1879. The same way that sexual species require male and female to reproduce. Viruses still communicate, just on a chemical level, they use tools, hormones and protein systems to invade cells and conquer them. They engage in adaptive morphology, which while slow at it, are capable of doing it far quicker than of the “higher order organisms” are. And from an evolutionary stand point, purely on the basis of sexual reproduction, they have been far more successful, as every organism can die to a virus, everyone. And bacterial organisms. The strongest elephant, the biggest wail, and even human beings.

Now, let’s show this from another way, you say higher order organisms are better, first of all least take at reproduction, Viruses require a host, which is worse you say, sexual reproduction requires to organisms, both being morphologically different, but of the same species; bodily fluids along with basic elements of genetic ingredients must pass from one organism to the other, in a set manner, at a specific time, which opens both organisms to be killed during the process. While the one organism carries the embryo to term, in most cases the female, but in some cases male, that being undergoes massive biochemical differences, which limits there survival rate. This is not so with asexually reproducing species, bacteria, viruses, single celled organisms. Now, you say, if the other races were to go the mind flayers, would die. This excludes the inability of them to simply find another source of organisms to host. The other organisms, those that can in sexual reproduction are as much at the mercy of their environment as those that engage in asexual reproduction, they require set environmental conditions to provide them with regular food sources. They require group protection, during the survival declines that later stages of pregnancy require, etc, etc.

Now, let us at last look at the sheer form of the concepts of asexual reproduction that we have on the one hand, and sexual reproduction on the other and thank about them in a purely logical stand point, stripping away the natural desire to see those organisms closer to ourselves as higher, and those more alien as different, and see how they are equivalent.

Sexual reproduction
1[Asx anversan Qr] Given statement
2[If Asx then (sU or Qr)] 1, DeMorgons.
3[-(sU or Qr)] 2, negation of 2 through the converse of a primace.
4[Asx] 1, reintroduced with out supplement as a consequence of 3.


Asexual reproduction

1[Asx anversan Sq] given statement
2[IfAsx then (Sq or Sn)]
3[ sub proof introduction [-Sq or Sn) negation introduction or alimination, 2.
4 [-Sq or Sn) if and only if Asx contingent premise, 1.
5Return to main proof, [ Asx suppercedes supersceeds (Sq or Sn) 4R.
6[Asx suppercedes ] conclusion reached by 5.

Note, this last line isn’t actually necessary on the second logical argument, but hopefully by it’s inclusion you can see that both arguments, sexual and asexual are logically equivalent. Neither is better or wors than the other. The problem as we often like to assign qualitative labels to quantative differences. There are a few cases where this logically correct, but most of the time it’s not.

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Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

?!?!?! That whole last part made no sense at all, I'm afraid. In any case, you seem to have missed the point- it's not the ASEXUAL aspect that I feel is less biologically sound- it's the reliance on ANOTHER SPECIES for reproductive requirements. Take the other species out of the equasion, and suddenly, there is no longer eve na possibility of continuing the species which depends so completely on the (now) missing element.

What it comes down to (biologically- and I already covered the insect parasites) is whether a species can stand on its own reproductively. Illithids and all their other xenoforms simply can't I don't call that a viable biology. It's a dead-end. And those tadpoles left alone might still continue to grow, but (as I recall) they still must eventually find a host or die. They simply don't become intelligent if they only find animals or other lower Underdark creatures to act as hosts.

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Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

@ Wooly- according to the Illithiad, neolithids still have to feed off of some form of (non-intelligent) brains in order to survive, and they are created only if the elder brain dies and they are left alone due to the Illithid community's collapse. They apparently grow and turn into a monsterous slug-like creature, and these also gain sentience if they devour a sentient being's brain during that time. So though they may not bond with another creature, they must still go through a form of the same metomorphosis as others. However, one could argue that by that point, they are no longer even the same species, having changed so drastically from the illithid "norm". They would appear to be a form of mutation, or perhaps the species "true" form- which would make the humanoid illithids the mutants....

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Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

My take on it is that they are, if anything, an ENGINEERED race. Not one occuring naturally, from all appearances. Evolution-wise, one species CANNOT spring whole-cloth from combining a juvenile with a host from another species to convert it into its own type. At least not on THIS planet. Where would those first illithids have come from? One species cannot (naturally) be converted into another. That would require some level of bio-engineering and that does not happen naturally. I guess it's just the nature-loving scientist in me, but the illithids as a seperate species just are not plausible to me with that kind of reproductive format. There are certain rules of genetics that are absolute unless tinkered with by an outside source, and this is one of them. One species cannot simply implant its offspring into a completely different species, in order to grow another of its own kind. YEs, I'm aware of viruses, but they do not "convert" other cells into more viruses, they simply force the cells to make them by hijacking the DNA and inserting the codes. With illithids, what we're talking about is taking an already fully-formed creature, and devouring another from the inside out (at the seat of all bodily function, I might add, which SHOULD technically KILL it), while at the same time transforming it into something else. NOT possible in any known species.

I guess what I'm saying here is that they (the humanoid ones) seem more like a viral infection of an existing species (the host) than a seperate "race" of their own. Something like what the T-virus does to people it infest in the Res Evil series. But none of those infected can reproduce afterward, so far as we know, so this is different even from that, and in that respect, is more like the Xenomorphs. Which, given that "Aliens" inspiration came from Geiger, seems too much like mixing sci-fi with D&D. Again, if the neolithis are the "natural" form, then the others are- what? A bio-engineeered mutation? If so, engineered by whom? D&D does have spells that can graft two creatures together, but that's the only way I can see them being possible. If they had kept it as a strictly amphibian-like metamorphosis from tadpole to adult (without inter-species cross-over) it would have been fine. As it is, the Illithiad has made me loose all belief in their plausibility. *shrugs* To each his own, I guess....

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

You know, I find myself liking the bio-engineered idea... Maybe neolithids are the true form of the race, and they engineered the mind flayers for some reason. When it became necessary for them to do their temporal jaunt, it was all the mind flayers, and few of anything else. In fact, maybe the mind flayers were fleeing their former masters, and that's why they're so rare now!

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