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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Sep 2012 : 15:26:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Emma Drake
quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
Oh, BTW, please don't assume a question I make is a challenge, I sometimes have that problem in real life.
Not at all. Please don't assume that if I throw quotations at you that I'm being petulant. I'm a researcher by day and it's sort of what I do! I love being able to flip through books to find that reference that I just know is in there somewhere. :)
Actually I prefer it, cause sometimes I wonder if someone got that from an actual game book, or a novel, or something from of the internet. It helps a lot. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2012 : 01:49:06
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| You make some good points, but I'd think that at the end of the day, it comes down to this- does the dorw female in question WANT to give birth (putting aside the actual reasons for the desire, be the personal, political, or both) and does she have the resources and security to make it a viable option? If the answer to either is no, then chances are, she would use any means she has access to to end it or ensurethat it never happens in the first place. And keep in mind, that drow are by nature VERY selfich. They will generally do nothing that does not, in one way or another, DIRECTLY benefit THEM. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2012 : 10:54:45
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I think a very simple and obvious reason for the Drow being more fertile than their surface cousins is that Attrition is much higher in drow society especially in the younger generation that are often literally craving a place for themselves in the world. Also as Sightless pointed out the Drow are seen as enemies by pretty much everyone else in the underdark including rival groups of drow.
In such a situation if the drow had a Japanese type birthrate they would soon go extinct.
This is not conducive to the plans of the Spider Queen so even if we put the arguments of science and evolution aside, one can argue that enhanced fertility is one of the "gifts" that she bestowed upon the Drow race. |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2012 : 12:03:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
You make some good points, but I'd think that at the end of the day, it comes down to this- does the dorw female in question WANT to give birth (putting aside the actual reasons for the desire, be the personal, political, or both) and does she have the resources and security to make it a viable option? If the answer to either is no, then chances are, she would use any means she has access to to end it or ensurethat it never happens in the first place. And keep in mind, that drow are by nature VERY selfich. They will generally do nothing that does not, in one way or another, DIRECTLY benefit THEM.
Quite naturally, but my post is only meant to describe and explain something that already exists, higher brith rate, and a relatively high population in the underdark. It doesn't by any means remove the oter factors, such as plainning, contriciption, abortion of there were a sudden, or percieved shift in resources, etc. The other issue to consider is this though, and this might be something for another scroll entirely, do surfice elves engage in equall, if perhaps somewhat different levels of planning for their on offspring? |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2012 : 20:17:49
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(I don't have the time to read through the entire thread right now, so hopefully no one has mentioned this.)
What if faerzress radiation has some sort of sterilizing effect? I believe that drow eat foodstuffs that have been affected by the radiation, and this explains their spell-like abilities. It might have the additional effect of preventing conception, implantation, menstruation, gestation, etc.
In the RW, you always hear about warnings to avoid too much radiation, or else you'll never have any children! 
Drizzt's departure from the Underdark and its distinctive radiation led to the loss of his drow spell-like abilities, so faerzress appears to only impart temporary benefits. Therefore, maybe faerzress's sterilization effect is only temporary in nature, as well.
If that is the case, then drow could play with the radiation all they wanted for most of their lives, and enjoy the contraceptive benefits along the way; but when they were ready to get pregnant, they could maybe eat a special diet and avoid the wilds of the Underdark, thereby avoiding high concentrations of the radiation, and therefore regain their normal reproductive abilities for a time.
If this works for drow, I'm guessing it could explain how things work for the other Underdark races, too.  |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2012 : 22:14:42
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The problem with that theory, BEAST, is that that was no longer a factor after Liriel carved her rune. She used the rune magic of the Windwalker to make those abilities permanent, yet that did not change their fertility at all, from what evidence we have. In fact, they only started having more children after the seige of Menzo during Lolth's Silence. Perhaps Lolth actually has something to do with their fertility rates? She may make certain females more fertile, according to her "Favor", and others less so.
If that is the case, it's no WONDER the drow court her favor so feircely! As a prime example, Matron Baenre is stated as having had over twenty children, and was still giving birth, even at her very advanced age, when Drizzt himself was born. Berg'inyon was one of Drizzt's classmates, IIRC, and at that time, Matron Baenre was estimated at over two thousand years old! And it was known that she was WELL in Lolth's favor, and in fact, Matron Malice even speculated that that might have been the reason she could remain fertile for so long. So what if she allows those in her favor to bear more children and increase their House's strength, and does the opposite for those who are not in her favor? It might not be faerzress at all that causes some drow to be more fertile- it might be Lolth herself! |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2012 : 22:15:36
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Since we have yet to encounter any other-worldy lifeform as of yet, I think even your definition of 'mammal' may be in doubt. As of right now, it applies to a specific branch of evolution here on Earth, and may not apply anywhere else.
And elves were supposedly created by their gods. I don't actually believe that, but it is part of their creation myths (then again... its part of everyone's creation myths). As far as we know, Elves have not 'evolved' from anything else - they have always been elves. I personally believe the fey were their forbears (creators), but thats not necessarily the same thing in a fantasy milieu.
Not being contentious or anything, I am just agreeing with Lord Bane's hypothesis: In a fictional fantasy setting - with magic and different physics - all bets are off. Hard Science goes right out the window. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Sep 2012 22:16:47 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2012 : 17:39:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
The problem with that theory, BEAST, is that that was no longer a factor after Liriel carved her rune. She used the rune magic of the Windwalker to make those abilities permanent, yet that did not change their fertility at all, from what evidence we have. In fact, they only started having more children after the seige of Menzo during Lolth's Silence.
What evidence do we have, on drow fertility rates?
If the rune tree made faerzress-deposit place magic permanent (on the surface?, in the Underdark? everywhere???), then that would mean that it also made its hypothetical contraceptive effects permanent, too. So there shouldn't be any drow babies, anymore.
Were there any drow babies in "WOTSQ" or "The Lady Penitent Trilogy"? I don't recall any in the former.
Now, if a faezress-deposit magical effect is rendered permanent, what does that even mean? Does that mean that it doesn't wear out in a few weeks on the surface? What about after months, or years? A drowcraft item continues to display radiation-induced enchantment, even when it hasn't been re-charged? A drow continues to display radiation-induced spell-like abilities, even when he hasn't eaten radioactive food?
Or does it only mean that the Underdark radiation doesn't become neutralized and/or distorted by solar radiation, which would lead to harmful effects (to drowcraft items, for example)? If this is the case, then drow would still need to regularly recharge drowcraft items, and eat irradiated food, to retain their abilities.
I get it that Liriel's gambit took away the drow's slavish attachment to the Underdark. They could then bring their Underdark magic with them for longer periods, at least, without fear of their items being corroded by the sun.
But they would still need to access the source of their radiation magic, wouldn't they? Rendering their items immune from the sun doesn't give their items eternal power, does it?
Or did the rune tree do both? Did it make the source of the magic eternal, immune from the sun, and universal for all drow?
quote:
Perhaps Lolth actually has something to do with their fertility rates? She may make certain females more fertile, according to her "Favor", and others less so.
Yeah, she might magically make some more fertile, despite the radiation's contraceptive effects.
quote:
It might not be faerzress at all that causes some drow to be more fertile- it might be Lolth herself!
No, what I was suggesting was that faerzress makes drow less fertile--not more.
faerzress => less fertile (-)
Lolth => more fertile (+)
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"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 24 Sep 2012 17:42:56 |
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EytanBernstein
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
704 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2012 : 18:05:55
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It seems to me like the only way to realistically judge fantasy races is on a social level. We can't assume that real-world science applies to any given race. We can't generalize from what we know about elves to describe the fertility of drow, or vice versa, because they aren't the same race. The same goes for assuming that elves and drow would have similarities to human reproductive tendencies. All we can do is look at what is known about the drow's social structure.
- They are almost perpetually at war, and those that survive are wily or powerful.
- They have a high percentage of spellcasters who can manipulate, negate, or perhaps even cause pregnancy.
- As a society, drow do not nurture or love their children. IMO, this would lessen the chances of a given drow child reaching his/her 1st birthday (especially male drow).
- They live in a society that values control over all else. It seems unlikely that any drow female would bring a child to term against her will, unless under threat of a more powerful female or Lolth herself. Otherwise, I suspect that if a drow woman isn't ready to have a child, she'll find a way to end the pregnancy. |
http://eytanbernstein.com - the official website of Eytan Bernstein |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2012 : 18:29:44
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Their a seperat species?
How can they be said to be a seperate species when they were originally surfice elves to begin with. The only that would stand if you somehow tried to say that Moon and sun elves were different species, by which they would have to be different int in some biological or anatomical aspect. That is if you want to use the term in proper parlonce. Now, there seems to be some confusion over what was in my post, so I'll try and alevate some. I am not saying that Drow will have babies for the sake of having babies. I am however pointing to several factors that would logically influence the increased likelyhood for them to willingly do so. Several individuals have reinforced the entire lack of parental care in regards to children, especially male children, but that consideration does not in of itself dicrease the likelyhood of having them. I could go on, but wont.
I find incredibly interesting that folks have no problem with the fact that in fantsy we expect non-homid organisms to function in full capacity, but the moment it looks the remoteist degree of fitting into that catagory most folks here want to say it's fantasy and it doesn't apply. Still that is your progrative, I have attempted to provide a logically rationally concise explanation for something that exists within D&D, without simply saying that it's a result of their Goddess, or a consequence there off, although both of those can easily serve as additional factors. The responses to which I find margenally perplexing, but still a useful guide for how I respond to other topics in the future. with all that said, I shall bow out and let others have the full range of this topic as they wish. Thank you all. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2012 : 18:48:02
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I have no issue with you trying to bring up scientific facts to underline your statements, sometimes you can explain things in the realms with scientific backup, but you take a scientific study and apply it on something that does not exist. These studies, which i assume are psychological-sociological ones, are always made to research a specific field of the study. They mostly have a hypothesis based on specific ideas and other proven scientific facts to research a field of human society and they are only applicable on this specific field.
I have to disagree with the statement that Drow and surface Elves are not the same race, they are all elves, subraces they may be but still are all elves.
The differance comes from the enviorment. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2476 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2012 : 19:50:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Emma Drake
My current gaming group recently had a debate about how often Underdark races use contraception (as birth rates are generally lower than for, say, humans).
Which races? Assuming three less weird ones. But death rates are higher because, well, it's Underdark. 
quote:
Originally posted by Emma Drake
My contribution to the discussion was that, due to the lack of sunlight, herbal remedies (made from cannis seed or nararoot) would be either impossible to find or prohibitively expensive. Men and women would thus need to turn to magic if they wanted a reliable way to prevent conception.
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
But, if needed, I would simply create a fungus, mushroom, lichen etc that would work in similar ways that you could probably buy in an alchemist's shop.
There was some mention of drow using cantrips, IIRC.
quote:
Originally posted by Emma Drake
The counterargument was that as Underdark races that are not incredibly fertile, even magic forms of contraception would be uncommon.
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
Considering the danger of the Underdark and the most likely constant need for replacement soldiers, wizards, and priests, I'm not sure unplanned pregnancies would be viewed as a bad thing. I think their use would probably vary by culture.
That, too. Drow and duergar are clannish. Duergar are on the verge of extinction - like other dwarves, except no Thunder Blessing for them - so they won't. Drow face overpopulation while sitting on limited resources, but they have no problems artificially raising death rates to hold it back as needed - wars, internal feuds, sacrifices, raising standards for Blooding - it's too easy. Svirfneblin - not much is known about them, but in the end they're little gnomes - and, well, it's Underdark.
So, no constant big demand for this either way.
Either way, both drow and deep gnomes are known to be very good at alchemy and mass-producing lots of much stranger substances. Things like this, mild soporifics, body paint and so on may be kept on the shelves just "for completeness".
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
I have to disagree with the statement that Drow and surface Elves are not the same race, they are all elves, subraces they may be but still are all elves.
The differance comes from the enviorment.
Drow were changed. To the point where binding keyed at the pre-Descent dark elves failed and, you know, spell-like abilities.  So at least magically they're different.
As to the environment... may well be, too. Zakharan elves don't seem to have a ghost of extinction on the horizon - then again, they don't reserve much time for exercises in narcissism, gilded nostalgia and/or bemoaning their Fate.  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12022 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2012 : 20:57:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Since we have yet to encounter any other-worldy lifeform as of yet, I think even your definition of 'mammal' may be in doubt.
Ummm, I've stared at the drow pictures a whole lot... and they got boobies.... really, really nice boobies |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2012 : 12:49:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
I have no issue with you trying to bring up scientific facts to underline your statements, sometimes you can explain things in the realms with scientific backup, but you take a scientific study and apply it on something that does not exist. These studies, which i assume are psychological-sociological ones, are always made to research a specific field of the study. They mostly have a hypothesis based on specific ideas and other proven scientific facts to research a field of human society and they are only applicable on this specific field.
I have to disagree with the statement that Drow and surface Elves are not the same race, they are all elves, subraces they may be but still are all elves.
The differance comes from the enviorment.
There not psychological, their neurological ones, cross-species studies on stress, the endocrine system and reproduction. All of them were Experimental based on the hypoathsis that stress in of itself would not impact either an individual species, or a large group of species. Organisms studied included, mice, rats, three different bird species, two different species of dogs, several sugroups of primates, an in my original post humans. In my second posting, where I treated material from Lords of darkness as my guiding assumption, I removed the human studies, but left all the other studies there.
I do think there might be some confusion on the last part, which is that I was saying that the elves were not different subspecies, all the information seems to indicate that the alterations to them were more morphological than bilogical, with the only exception being sunlight. While I know of no direct Drow surfice elf pairings, the fact that both can sexually reproduce with humans, and that the offspring can themselves reproduce indicate that surfice elves and drow are sexually compatible. I cannot emphasize the significance of both half elves and half drow enough and the fact they are capable of sexual reproduction.
Now, to change directions a bit, to Mind flayers reproduce sexually, or are they formed by other means.
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We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2012 : 16:23:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
Now, to change directions a bit, to Mind flayers reproduce sexually, or are they formed by other means.
Other means. They make little tadpoles that spend a few years swimming around and eating each other. Once there's only a couple left, the tadpole is removed from the pool and stuck in a person. It burrows in, takes over, and eventually transforms the person into a mind flayer.
This is going by memory, and is greatly simplified. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2012 : 17:19:04
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| What Wooly said. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2012 : 17:26:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
Now, to change directions a bit, to Mind flayers reproduce sexually, or are they formed by other means.
Other means. They make little tadpoles that spend a few years swimming around and eating each other. Once there's only a couple left, the tadpole is removed from the pool and stuck in a person. It burrows in, takes over, and eventually transforms the person into a mind flayer.
This is going by memory, and is greatly simplified.
Heard something online that matches up with that pretty much, but wasn't sure if it was a reliable source. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2012 : 17:43:11
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| There is an excellent discussion of mind flayer reproduction habits in the 2E book "The Illithiad" (1998). |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2012 : 18:06:11
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| I read The Illithiad a year or two back, and this was described in there. The process is called ceremorphosis. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2012 : 18:42:46
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| Thanks, will track it down, the Underdark book doesn't discuss that element much and so I was curious. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2012 : 18:59:20
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From 2nd quote:
Habitat/Society: Mind flayers hate sunlight and avoid it when possible. They live in underground cities of 200 to 2,000 illithids, plus at least two slaves per illithid. All the slaves are under the effects of a charm person or charm monster, and obey their illithid masters without question.
The center of a community is its elder-brain, a pool of briny fluid that contains the brains of the city's dead mind flayers. Due to the mental powers of illithids, the elder-brain is still sentient, and the telepathic union of its brains rules the community. The elder-brain has a telepathic range of 2 to 5 miles, depending on its age and size. It does not attack, but telepathically warns the mind flayers of the presence of thinking creatures, so a mind flayer within its telepathic radius can be surprised only by non-intelligent creatures. The range of the elder-brain determines the territory claimed and defended by the community, though raiding parties are sent far beyond this limit.
Mind flayers have no family structure. Their social activities include eating, communicating with the elder-brain, and debating on the best tactics to conquer the Underdark. For amusement, they inflict pain on their captives and force slaves to fight in gladiatorial games.
Mind flayers are arrogant, viewing all other species only as cattle to be fed upon. They prefer to eat the brains of thinking creatures.
Ecology: Mind flayers live about 125 years. They are warm-blooded amphibians, and spend the first 10 years of life as tadpoles, swimming in the elder-brain pool until they either die (which most do) or grow into adult illithids. On an irregular basis, adult illithids feed brains to the tadpoles, which do not molest the elder-brain. Illithids are hermaphroditic; each can produce one tadpole twice in its life.
Mind flayer ichor is an effective ingredient in a potion of ESP.
Of course 2rd, 4th of soon to come 5th might change this. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2012 : 19:12:05
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Lords of Madness also deals with the reproduction of the Ilithids or "Squids" as i sometimes call them and a small update on the ecology within:
The elder brain is feeding off the tadpoles so only a few survive and the "Squids" can lay up to 1000 eggs from which the tadpoles hatch. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2012 : 20:26:39
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| I always preferred the 2nd ed MM description of Illithid reproduction. Makes more sens to me than turning another entire creature into one of them. If they are made from body-snatching, then one would think that there would be many different forms depending on the "donor" body, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Also, the body-snatching angle just seems too much inspired by Alien or Invasion of hte Body-Snatchers. And if they were born from taking over otehr races' bodies, then why would they be so arrogant about being "superior"? They wouldn't even be able to SURVIVE without those so-called "inferior" races. "Cattle"? Seems more like they are the entire basis for their own species! |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2012 : 20:31:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I always preferred the 2nd ed MM description of Illithid reproduction. Makes more sens to me than turning another entire creature into one of them. If they are made from body-snatching, then one would think that there would be many different forms depending on the "donor" body, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Also, the body-snatching angle just seems too much inspired by Alien or Invasion of hte Body-Snatchers. And if they were born from taking over otehr races' bodies, then why would they be so arrogant about being "superior"? They wouldn't even be able to SURVIVE without those so-called "inferior" races. "Cattle"? Seems more like they are the entire basis for their own species!
They are picky about their hosts, and stick with humanoids.
And I dunno, there is a certain superiority in starting off smaller than the pinky finger of another creature, and then taking over its body and remaking it into your race's ideal. They are dominating and overwhelming the physical body of these "lesser" beings, until they grow up and can do the same thing to the mind.
It's not the route I would go to prove my superiority, but it's an end result it's hard to argue with. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2012 : 21:45:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I don't know, one could also argue that they are actually inferior for not having "race" of their own, but basically hijacking others. Using host bodies to grow one's offspring is also usually considered a trait of lower life-forms, specifically parasites.... That says a lot to me. They're not superior, they're just a (albeit nasty) pest!
All Asexual reproductive species are considered lower, simply because the appearence of it is associated with lower order lifeforms. There are no asexual reproducer that can use tools, have complex social orders, a system of complex communication etc. It is in fact, a long running falicy that they are inferior, but that's an issue for Identics, and thus for another time.
And I don't find it very suprising that they consider other forms lower than themselves, vampires that feed on various beings feel vastly superior to the beings that they feed on, to use an example of fantasy lore. The reason is in part to seperate one's self from the organism in question and thus consider any mistreatment of said being through a false view of amorality. To use real world examples, many people like to claim that they are superior to the baseline animals that they need to survive. Although I wonder if on some level if they didn't see other psychically able beings as almost peers. As this is one of the defining features of their superiority. Naturally, they wouldn't be seen quite as equalls, but as beings to be respected. I also wonder exactly what caused them to become allies of the Drow, or at least on a level where their being in some Drow cities isn't seen as something to be prevented. Perhaps there is some info in the Underdark book that I've not encountered yet that will deal with this.
Anyhow, just some things to think about. I personally don't consider asexual reproduction as any better or worse than sexual reperduction. Each has it's advantages and disadvantages... just like most things in life. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2012 : 23:42:01
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The ones in drow cities are usually there for trade- be it of slaves, magic, or other goods. They are not ALLIES, but they are considered "useful" by the drow, at times.
BTW, I was not refering to asexual reproduction, but to the fact that they cannot reproduce AT ALL without a host body for the "tadpole" to mature in. Only parasites require another living creature in which to grow their offspring. And it's not falacy that higher orders of animals are superior, from an evolutionary view. higher creatures are often more adaptable, as they are able to alter behavior to fit the environment, many can and do use tools or live in complex social groups, and yes, communication. A species able to do these things is more likely to survive changes to the environment.
I have a hard time believing that illithids would survive in the Underdark at all if not for the presence of the humanoid races like drow, duergars, and deep gnomes, heck, even orcs and goblins. Without those otehr races available to use for reproduction and food (I can only think of a very few actuall creatures that do this, and they are all parasitic insects), illithids would die out completely. That's a HUGE survival drawback in a place as dangerous as the Underdark. I'd even call them an evolutionary dead-end, since if the races they depend on were to leave the Underdark, they would not only starve, but be utterly unable to reproduce. That makes no sense to me, either from a design standpoint, or biological one. Too reliant on outside factors for survival. I prefer the original version where they simply matured over time in the ppol, and emerged after ten years as fuuly developed. It's more biologically sound. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2012 : 00:08:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
The ones in drow cities are usually there for trade- be it of slaves, magic, or other goods. They are not ALLIES, but they are considered "useful" by the drow, at times.
BTW, I was not refering to asexual reproduction, but to the fact that they cannot reproduce AT ALL without a host body for the "tadpole" to mature in. Only parasites require another living creature in which to grow their offspring. And it's not falacy that higher orders of animals are superior, from an evolutionary view. higher creatures are often more adaptable, as they are able to alter behavior to fit the environment, many can and do use tools or live in complex social groups, and yes, communication. A species able to do these things is more likely to survive changes to the environment.
I have a hard time believing that illithids would survive in the Underdark at all if not for the presence of the humanoid races like drow, duergars, and deep gnomes, heck, even orcs and goblins. Without those otehr races available to use for reproduction and food (I can only think of a very few actuall creatures that do this, and they are all parasitic insects), illithids would die out completely. That's a HUGE survival drawback in a place as dangerous as the Underdark. I'd even call them an evolutionary dead-end, since if the races they depend on were to leave the Underdark, they would not only starve, but be utterly unable to reproduce. That makes no sense to me, either from a design standpoint, or biological one. Too reliant on outside factors for survival. I prefer the original version where they simply matured over time in the ppol, and emerged after ten years as fuuly developed. It's more biologically sound.
Actually, without humanoid races to use for ceremorphosis, we wouldn't have mind flayers -- but there would be other illithid races. Mind flayers are simply the most common form. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2012 : 00:34:40
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| Don't they all reproduce the same way? I'm aware of the "bestial" forms, but they are just illithids that ended up in animals or other unintelligent creatures, IIRC. The point is it's not very realistic that mind flayers, or any of the others could exist. Somehow that just doesn't seem very "superior" to me, as it's entirely too dependant on using other creatures as both food osurce AND incubator. YMMV. As I said, it seems way too inspired by the Aleins movies. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Contraception in the Underdark
