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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Sep 2012 : 20:32:52
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Bael Turanth wasn't really a Tiefling nation, more like a nation ruled by tieflings. Only the noblity, royalty, the wealthest merchants and thier choosen pets became Tieflings, the common people remained human or other races. In this it resembles Narfell, were most of the population was human, but many of the,elites became Tieflings, or breed with things that bore Tieflings, or other things.
Bael also kind of resembled Unther towards the end, although the tieflings of Unther were related more to the darker Gods of the Unther pantheon, Tiamat, Assuran (Hoar), Nergal, Inanna(don't know why they concidered her evil), maybe some Settan and,Sebekian Tieflings from nearby Mulhorand, although in earlier, pre Gilgamesh times they'd have been balanced out by Aasmir of Ishtar, Murduk, and Enlil, and others.
Really the thing that set FR tiefling apart from other settings was that many of them were blood relations of Evil Gods, not just common,demons and devils (although thier was that too,especially in Thay and Narfell). Even 4e kept elements of that via the Godborn feat. Many Aasmir where related to Gods as well, of Neutral and Good alignment.
So you have Tieflings and Aasmir that were totally differently inclined then thier Planescape cousins. Sharessian Aasmir were more prone to corruption, Basheban Tieflings,had Antlars instead of horns.
Ishtaran Aasmir and Inannan Tieflings were related (Ishtar being Inanna's daughter).
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2012 : 21:06:19
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quote:
Originally posted by ErinMEvans
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Ditto.
What I really don't want to see is the 4E version of tieflings. Have an entire nation of them,with a homogenized appearance, really takes away the appeal for me. It makes them seem like just another race. <snip>.
Can I ask something? I keep seeing people talking about how 4e tieflings have their own nation in FR. To my knowledge that's not so. There are higher concentrations of them in a few places like the Calim and Narfell, but there's no Bael Turath in FR. Did I miss something? (Fortunately, doesn't mean continuity issues if I did, but it would be good to know).
(Wooly, don't mean to pick on you; you just said it clearest here. You may be talking about Nentir Vale/ core after all)
And yes, listen to Erik. He is full of excellent advice. :p
I was speaking of the core tieflings. Yeah, they didn't have the nation in FR, but their appearance and the appearance of other planetouched still became homogenized and exaggerated. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11745 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2012 : 01:38:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Really the thing that set FR tiefling apart from other settings was that many of them were blood relations of Evil Gods, not just common,demons and devils (although thier was that too,especially in Thay and Narfell). Even 4e kept elements of that via the Godborn feat. Many Aasmir where related to Gods as well, of Neutral and Good alignment.
Just a minor note... I don't see there being a lot of Thayan born tieflings unless they were to try it through a breeding program (like the tanarukk). They were way too proud of their Mulan breeding to even breed with other non-mulan humans, much less fiends. Not a major point of contention mind you, just people tend to go "evil, twisted culture filled with magic, yep they'd have lots of tieflings" but in this instance, it doesn't sound like someone that would apply so much. Now, would they shirk from having a tiefling as a compatriot? Hell no. Would they accept them in their society? Sure, as a henchman. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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ErinMEvans
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
294 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2012 : 03:01:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I was speaking of the core tieflings. Yeah, they didn't have the nation in FR, but their appearance and the appearance of other planetouched still became homogenized and exaggerated.
Gotcha!
(I suspect the issue is people here and there on various fora misreading others talking about what they don't like about the new races as a whole and assuming they ALL have their own nations. Or maybe I've misread every one and they're only commenting on core ...But I live in fear of the critical sidebar I might have missed. :)
To answer Erik's earlier comment, I have been involved in the DDN tiefling discussions. If you've seen the Sundering art, you know the 4e version's not being erased. But as I said before, they really are trying to make as many people happy as they can.
And I'm glad my explanation grew on you, Erik! You didn't mention that before. :)
...Basically the second Lesser Evils comes out I feel like I ought to come down here with a spoiler tag and lay it out, as much as I keep talking around it. |
www.slushlush.com |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2012 : 12:03:03
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quote:
Originally posted by ErinMEvans
To answer Erik's earlier comment, I have been involved in the DDN tiefling discussions. If you've seen the Sundering art, you know the 4e version's not being erased. But as I said before, they really are trying to make as many people happy as they can.
Are these talks still ongoing or have they been concluded with a set view on the Tieflings?
If they are still ongoing and your still involved with it, is there a potential chance without the NDA to spoil too much to have the 4e Tieflings simply become one part of a bloodline, like for example those of the Nine Hells and give the Tieflings of the abyssal background to look different?
Not sure if it is worded correctly but what my mind tried to say is, that maybe even tieflings of different abyssal planes or the nine hells could look different from another?
ex. The ones from Nessus looking different than those of Dis due to different fiendish types procreating with mortals and same for the Abyss. I doubt a child of a mortal and a Pitfiend looks the same as a child of a mortal and a Gelugon or a Lilitu/mortal offpsring from a Balor/mortal offspring (genetics etc.) |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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ErinMEvans
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
294 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2012 : 21:29:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
quote:
Originally posted by ErinMEvans
To answer Erik's earlier comment, I have been involved in the DDN tiefling discussions. If you've seen the Sundering art, you know the 4e version's not being erased. But as I said before, they really are trying to make as many people happy as they can.
Are these talks still ongoing or have they been concluded with a set view on the Tieflings?
If they are still ongoing and your still involved with it, is there a potential chance without the NDA to spoil too much to have the 4e Tieflings simply become one part of a bloodline, like for example those of the Nine Hells and give the Tieflings of the abyssal background to look different?
Not sure if it is worded correctly but what my mind tried to say is, that maybe even tieflings of different abyssal planes or the nine hells could look different from another?
ex. The ones from Nessus looking different than those of Dis due to different fiendish types procreating with mortals and same for the Abyss. I doubt a child of a mortal and a Pitfiend looks the same as a child of a mortal and a Gelugon or a Lilitu/mortal offpsring from a Balor/mortal offspring (genetics etc.)
Like most things D&DNext, it's still ongoing. As for specifics beyond what I've said already, the plans I've seen are to not retcon Brimstone Angels and Lesser Evils or the explanations therein. Which, if you've read the first book, you'll have gleaned that the 4e tieflings are descended from Asmodeus (etc., etc. Lesser Evils) So...I can agree that much right now? |
www.slushlush.com |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2012 : 22:19:54
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quote:
Originally posted by ErinMEvans
To answer Erik's earlier comment, I have been involved in the DDN tiefling discussions. If you've seen the Sundering art, you know the 4e version's not being erased. But as I said before, they really are trying to make as many people happy as they can.
This is the key. Respecting old lore and pleasing as many fans as possible. Some folks like the 4e tiefling look, some want variety. I want both.
quote:
And I'm glad my explanation grew on you, Erik! You didn't mention that before. :)
In my mind, it was just kind of a shaky art decision until I saw the directions you were heading, and I'm pleased thereby. 
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...Basically the second Lesser Evils comes out I feel like I ought to come down here with a spoiler tag and lay it out, as much as I keep talking around it.
Folks interested in tieflings should check out those novels, starting with Brimstone Angels. You'll be glad you did!
Cheers
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Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2012 : 23:31:33
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Since 'Tiefling' has become the term for 'descended from fiends', maybe we need to go back to Cambion for the first generation types (the ones from earlier editions).
And it seems fiendish genetics doesn't work like normal genetics - more traits seem to become dominant in later generations. Or, at least, 'throw-back' genes seem to be more persistent. I am basing this o the fact the 'descended from' 4e tieflings look far more fiendish then the old ones that were children of fiends. Rather then not making sense, I think they should embrace that as one of the quirks of having a fiendish bloodline. A family could look fairly normal for a few centuries and then BAM! Some kids comes out looking like the devil himself.
EDIT: Another idea - Tieflings are descended from demons, and hence their more 'chaotic' appearance. Cambions are descended from devils - who already appear much more human - and those are the half-fiends who don't have such a fiendish appearance (in other words, the old-school Tieflings become Cambions). Whats funny is that this wouldn't have worked if they hadn't changed Graz'zt into a tunrcoat Devil (because his son - Iuz - is the most famous Cambion in D&D). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Sep 2012 23:39:03 |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2012 : 23:48:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
EDIT: Another idea - Tieflings are descended from demons, and hence their more 'chaotic' appearance. Cambions are descended from devils - who already appear much more human - and those are the half-fiends who don't have such a fiendish appearance (in other words, the old-school Tieflings become Cambions). Whats funny is that this wouldn't have worked if they hadn't changed Graz'zt into a tunrcoat Devil (because his son - Iuz - is the most famous Cambion in D&D).
Fwiw, in some of the seminal sources on fiends from 2e, cambion was specifically used for first-generation spawn of mortals and demons - with some subtypes such as major and baron/marquis cambion further used to distinguish what variety of demon was responsible.
As for Graz'zt, hopefully his 4e PoL incarnation won't influence his status in the Great Wheel (given that he's the child of the obyrith Pale Night - though I'm not necessarily against the inclusion of a suggestion of his other parent being diabolic, but I wouldn't make it mandatory to assume 4e continuity there, just leave it as an option). |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2012 : 09:22:51
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@Mrs. Evans: Thank you for your insight on the topic so far!
@Shemmy: They shifted the cambions from child of a demon and a human to child of a devil and a human or atleast that´s what 4e says.I personally liked the 3e definition that any half-fiend is considered a cambion and then it can branch out to other names.
Tying tieflings and cambions to devils retconnes the lore. The most iconic cambion of the realms Kaanyr Vhok who has been displayed as descending from demons is now of devil blood? Meh.....
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The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2012 : 11:57:29
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| I just really really hope that the look of "Infernal" tieflings in 4e (which I now know isn't going to disappear), Bael Turath and their true breeding capabilities won't disappear. I just really enjoyed it. I thought they were one of the better things in 4e, to be honest. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2012 : 15:18:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Since 'Tiefling' has become the term for 'descended from fiends', maybe we need to go back to Cambion for the first generation types (the ones from earlier editions).
Before we get too deep into it, you should check out Erin's explanation of 4e FR tieflings. I think it makes it pretty clear why these tieflings have the appearance they do.
But Erin's explanation is still unfolding over an as-yet-unreleased book (Lesser Evils), so until that information comes to light, let's hold off on too much analysis.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2401 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2012 : 10:46:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Tieflings will have subraces in 5e based on planes.
Groundbreaking news.
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
FR has unique fiendish planes
If you're about 4e stuff, it's incomprehensible. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Thanateros
Acolyte
15 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2016 : 10:17:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Aryalómë
I certainly hope the appearance of the "Infernal Tieflings" and their story and ancient empire of Bael Turath don't die with 4e. I actually enjoyed it very much.
The void in the settings that I see is the absence of a non-Evil tiefling-ruled locale, so in my game I added a tiefling kingdom with worship of Pharasma (non-Evil goddess of death) as the state religion [having been integral to the formation of the kingdom]. (Like all governments though, Lawful Evil sociopaths do occasionally manage to acquire positions of power via their ruthlessness.) |
"Quality is a fundamental aspect of our experiential realities, with pleasure being the simplest name of the attractive positive experiential pole. Modeled mathematically, pursuit of pleasure then is simply a mathematical inevitability of our experiential realities." |
Edited by - Thanateros on 19 Jan 2016 09:38:37 |
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5e Tieflings will have planar subraces.
