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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 01:30:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
However, you can still achieve balance without artificially nerfing a stat, or using level adjustment. If you want to loose the CON negative, just dump the 1st level Feat. you have to give up something, but it doesn't have to be other stat points.
I never bothered with negatives myself - I had my own system.
Yes, assuming that one is using 3E.
How does all this work in 4E?
I know D&D and AD&D well.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
Edited by - combatmedic on 07 Sep 2012 01:33:43 |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 03:15:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Aryalómë
The Elves in Middle-earth Roleplaying had no CON problems at all, especially the Noldor, who had a large bonus to theirs.
I'm tired of this whole "balanced races" thing. Why must everything be "balanced"?? That's not how it works. A tiger cub could rip a puppy to shreds. No balancing there.
And if there was an RPG based on tiger cubs and puppies, with tiger cubs able to rip puppies to shreds, then everyone would play tiger cubs, and no one would play puppies. That's why the playable races are balanced: so that the human F1 is no better and no worse than an elf F1, who is no better and no worse than a dwarf F1, and so on.
Edit: had to remove a typo. 
That's an extremely flimsy excuse. First of all, since this is an RPG, most would assume people would want to play characters that have a bit more to them than just stats-and you know it's true. Would you want to play an Orc just because he/she could just crush through everything? Probably not.
I would expect a human, elf, or dwarf fighter to have different abilities of being a proficient fighter. A dwarf would be much better at taking a lot of damage while dealing out powerful attacks. An elf would be much faster in their attacks and able to dodge a lot easier. A human would be somewhere in between. And for all of these species, it depends on subrace too.
Each race should have obvious, if not large, advantages in certain classes that they are supposed to favour. If a certain species/race/subrace is supposed to be the "masters" of a certain art, then no other species/race/subrace should be able to even come near it.
Unbalanced races are much more unique in that they actually feel different from each other. In basic D&D, species/races/subraces feel like nigh palette swaps of each other with a bit of aesthetic differences, lore differences and some small stat differences. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 03:48:28
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quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
Yes, assuming that one is using 3E.
How does all this work in 4E?
No clue. I don't use 4e, nor know anyone who does. Obviously it lacks the flexibility of other systems, if there isn't a mechanic similar to Feats.
quote:
Originally posted by Aryalómë
Would you want to play an Orc just because he/she could just crush through everything? Probably not.
I would.
I love orcs anyway, so that would just be icing on the cake. 
A good percentage of D&D players are min-maxers, and even the ones who aren't are going to think twice about taking a less-powerful race just for an RP opportunity.
I think Savage Species was on the right track, and with racial levels/Feats, we could easily make some of the more powerful races PC races without imbalance. Just assume PCs are 'immature' representatives of their kind. Players would have to burn feats or waste levels to get more powerful abilities. There simply is no way around that.
I ran into this problem when I was working on the Hordelands. I had come up with a 'Horselord' PrC, but it was only obtainable at lev 3, so I had to assume all mature Tuigan were at least lev 3 This makes sense, because Tuigan start training as children, so by the time they are 13 they are around lev 1, and by the time they are 15 they are lev 2, and at 18 are lev 3.
In fact, when you think about it, most folks should be greater then lev 1 in a fantasy setting. The only way to counter this problem is to accept PCs as superior specimens of their race, and thats why they are 'just better' then commoners. Regardless, you still wind up with the problem of not being able to apply PrCs when and where you need to.
In the past, I simply started my players out at level 3, but if I have to do that, then something seems broken to me. Why can't it work the way I want and PCs start out level 1?
I am hoping D&Dnext solves some of these issues - they appear to be on the right track. HP has a lot to do with 'power creep'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Sep 2012 03:52:07 |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 04:11:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Aryalómë
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Aryalómë
The Elves in Middle-earth Roleplaying had no CON problems at all, especially the Noldor, who had a large bonus to theirs.
I'm tired of this whole "balanced races" thing. Why must everything be "balanced"?? That's not how it works. A tiger cub could rip a puppy to shreds. No balancing there.
And if there was an RPG based on tiger cubs and puppies, with tiger cubs able to rip puppies to shreds, then everyone would play tiger cubs, and no one would play puppies. That's why the playable races are balanced: so that the human F1 is no better and no worse than an elf F1, who is no better and no worse than a dwarf F1, and so on.
Edit: had to remove a typo.
That's an extremely flimsy excuse. First of all, since this is an RPG, most would assume people would want to play characters that have a bit more to them than just stats-and you know it's true. Would you want to play an Orc just because he/she could just crush through everything? Probably not.
I would expect a human, elf, or dwarf fighter to have different abilities of being a proficient fighter. A dwarf would be much better at taking a lot of damage while dealing out powerful attacks. An elf would be much faster in their attacks and able to dodge a lot easier. A human would be somewhere in between. And for all of these species, it depends on subrace too.
Each race should have obvious, if not large, advantages in certain classes that they are supposed to favour. If a certain species/race/subrace is supposed to be the "masters" of a certain art, then no other species/race/subrace should be able to even come near it.
Unbalanced races are much more unique in that they actually feel different from each other. In basic D&D, species/races/subraces feel like nigh palette swaps of each other with a bit of aesthetic differences, lore differences and some small stat differences.
In Basic D&D, elf, dwarf, and halfling are all classes. Race is class for these characters. Elves can cast spells in plate armor. Halflings have a 'freeze and hide' ability like super sneaky rabbits. Dwarves have great saving throws and special underground/stonework detection abilities.
Humans can be thieves, fighters, clerics, or magic-users.
My experience of Basic is very different from yours. I have never felt that the demihumans seemed like humans with a palette swap. YMMV, as it evidently does in this case.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
Edited by - combatmedic on 07 Sep 2012 04:14:59 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 04:25:50
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One of my best friend and I took some inspiration from FR for our elves (we have moon, sun "high" elves, wild elves), and we also have tundra elves, which are kind of like snow elves. They live in a cold climate, and are kind of "tribal".
I suppose that isn't really relevant to this discussion though ^^; |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 05:51:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Aryalómë
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Aryalómë
The Elves in Middle-earth Roleplaying had no CON problems at all, especially the Noldor, who had a large bonus to theirs.
I'm tired of this whole "balanced races" thing. Why must everything be "balanced"?? That's not how it works. A tiger cub could rip a puppy to shreds. No balancing there.
And if there was an RPG based on tiger cubs and puppies, with tiger cubs able to rip puppies to shreds, then everyone would play tiger cubs, and no one would play puppies. That's why the playable races are balanced: so that the human F1 is no better and no worse than an elf F1, who is no better and no worse than a dwarf F1, and so on.
Edit: had to remove a typo.
That's an extremely flimsy excuse. First of all, since this is an RPG, most would assume people would want to play characters that have a bit more to them than just stats-and you know it's true. Would you want to play an Orc just because he/she could just crush through everything? Probably not.
I would expect a human, elf, or dwarf fighter to have different abilities of being a proficient fighter. A dwarf would be much better at taking a lot of damage while dealing out powerful attacks. An elf would be much faster in their attacks and able to dodge a lot easier. A human would be somewhere in between. And for all of these species, it depends on subrace too.
Each race should have obvious, if not large, advantages in certain classes that they are supposed to favour. If a certain species/race/subrace is supposed to be the "masters" of a certain art, then no other species/race/subrace should be able to even come near it.
Unbalanced races are much more unique in that they actually feel different from each other. In basic D&D, species/races/subraces feel like nigh palette swaps of each other with a bit of aesthetic differences, lore differences and some small stat differences.
It's not a flimsy excuse. Would I play an orc because it's tougher? No. Would I play one if everyone else did, and not playing one would get my character killed? Yes.
How many people are willingly going to choose to play a particular race, if they know that another race is flat out better? Who wants to play someone who is constantly at a disadvantage?
And while I am all about the concept for any character I play, there are others who have no concept beyond maximizing the numbers and making their character as powerful as it can possibly be, and then some.
You may think it's a flimsy excuse. But given how long it's been a part of D&D, it shows that generations of game designers disagree with you. |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 11:00:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
quote:
Originally posted by Aryalómë
The Elves in Middle-earth Roleplaying had no CON problems at all, especially the Noldor, who had a large bonus to theirs.
I'm tired of this whole "balanced races" thing. Why must everything be "balanced"?? That's not how it works. A tiger cub could rip a puppy to shreds. No balancing there.
Really, I’d thought they’d at least try and stay close to the lore on that one. It’s pretty well established that the stamina issue was a problem for the elves in Tolkiens work. In the original Lord of the Rings, I say that as some things were removed when they split them into the three books, it was mentioned in at least twelve different places. It was mentioned in other works as well. Oh, well, I suppose that’s what happens sometimes.
So what I presume you are saying here, is that Elves should have no disadvantages, but everyone else should?
I should point out that is it stands the plus to dexterity in many respects negates the con difficulties considerably. A few free points in survival, winter environment, which is what I gave my version of the snow elves, negates most of the cold problems that they would face, while not completely removing the fact they still live in a harsh environment.
Oh, is Nyére auta part of some elven language I’m not aware of? I’d love to know it’s meaning, as it’s also an improper expletive in yetis.
Frankly as someone who is a fan of Tolkiens work i have to admit that I don't really remember any elves with stamina issues, at least not any warriors. In fact many elves such as Legolas were able to outrun and outlast the " hardier dwarves and humans " in many instances especially seen in the quest to retrieve Mery and Pippin from the orcs and the crossing of Caradhras. |
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Mateops
Acolyte
5 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 19:53:34
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Well I agree that having a great cities would make alot of sense. But if you like the ice carved wonderland idea, close to where I live in RL we have the winterlude, artists come from everywhere and craft really nice statues etc. So your wonderland could be something temporary, some kind of gathering for all the nomadic tribes where they gather once a year, craft a temporary wonderland, exchange between each other, share new trade perhaps even find mates (thinking penguin's here lol). then the whole thing is abandonned and they move on.
Just an idea |
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Mateops
Acolyte
5 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 20:17:35
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About balance.. well I am very new to this forum, but as a DM I really dont see what the big deal is? My players wants to play a disbalanced elf, fine, ill adapt and make everything more epic, he wants to play a weak caracther and explore this avenue, fine. Anything can be interesting, I dont even ask my players to roll their stats (Although I ask them to keep it within limits 18 + racial bonus to start), choose what you want, either way you cant fool me as a DM! If you min/max yourself or make yourself very strong you will have a different kind of story and different challenges: its like people who like more superman then batman, one is way OP compared to the other, as a story-teller I dont see why that would make it impossible to manage.
As for Tolkien, absolutely, IMO the elves were completely superior to everyone, could not get sick, now just there you have a huge CON advantage, could walk on snow and have access to all sorts of bonus that in a RPG would translate into stas boost. But what about the fact that being immortal is hard on the soul? That everyone you love in other races you will see them die as you stay young, you will see the cycles of history to the point where you will see the same mistakes, the same foolish hopes, same rise and falls etc.
You dont need stats to give weakness, we are not playing an MMO with PvP where it would be unfair to give a customers a disbalanced product. What I mean to say is let your imagination be the rule, let the story lead and see where it takes you dont worry about stats and balance etc.
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Edited by - Mateops on 07 Sep 2012 20:18:50 |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 21:13:11
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quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
Sightless, I'm very much interested in your ideas on the 'frailty factor' in Tolkien's writings about his elves. You may be on to something I have missed.
Feel free to shoot me some info on the relevant passages if you don't want to post the stuff here.
Thanks, dude.
There are a fewthings that I believe I should mention here, before anyone reads, or listens, further. First, originally the Lord of the Rings was published, as it was submitted, as one volume. The individual books, the fellowship of the ring, the two towers, and the return of the King, were separated into sections that were further subdivided into chapters; just as many of the Artherian works have been done in. When the books were split into three, some pages were removed, for various constraints. Given this one can find works of the fellowship without the forwards; varying degrees of exposition by Legolas, as he served often as an explainer of things; and the Return of the Kings without it’s appendices. Given this, expect some differences to exist in page numbers for my scitations. Second, my version is in brail, and as you all know, this means that the work must be divided into multiple volumes. I shall start here, and expand further, but my volumes aren’t all in the same box, and I’m still unpacking from the move. This however, should be sufficient, to assist in demonstrating my point. From the Forward to the Lord of the Rings, “Concerning Hobbits”:
For they are a little people, smaller than Dwarves: less tout and stocky, that is, even when they are not actually much shorter. Their height is variable, ranging between two and four feet of our measure. They seldom now reach three feet; but they have dwindled, they say, and in ancient days they were taller. According to the Red Book, Bandobras Took (Bullroarer), son of Isengrim the Second, was four foot five and able to ride a horse. He was surpassed in all Hobbit records only by two famous characters of old; but that curious matter is dealt with in this book.
As for the Hobbits of the Shire, with whom these tales are concerned, in the days of their peace and prosperity they were a merry folk. They dressed in bright colours, being notably fond of yellow and green; but they seldom wore shoes, since their feet had tough leathery soles and were clad in a thick curling hair, much like the hair of their heads, which was commonly brown. Thus, the only craft little practised among them was shoe-making; but they had long and skilful fingers and could make many other useful and comely things. Their faces were as a rule good-natured rather than beautiful, broad, bright-eyed, red-cheeked, with mouths apt to laughter, and to eating and drinking. And laugh they did, and eat, and drink, often and heartily, being fond of simple jests at all times, and of six meals a day (when they could get them). They were hospitable and delighted in parties, and in presents, which they gave away freely and eagerly accepted.
It is plain indeed that in spite of later estrangement Hobbits are relatives of ours: far nearer to us than Elves, or even than Dwarves. Of old they spoke the languages of Men, after their own fashion, and liked and disliked much the same things as Men did. But what exactly our relationship is can no longer be discovered. The beginning of Hobbits lies far back in the Elder Days that are now lost and forgotten. Only the frail and wise Elves still preserve any records of that vanished time, and their traditions are concerned almost entirely with their own history, in which Men appear seldom and Hobbits are not mentioned at all. Yet it is clear that Hobbits had, in fact, lived quietly in Middle-earth for many long years before other folk became even aware of them. And the world being after all full of strange creatures beyond count, these little people seemed of very little importance. But in the days of Bilbo, and of Frodo his heir, they suddenly became, by no wish of their own, both important and renowned, and troubled the counsels of the Wise and the Great.
Those days, the Third Age of Middle-earth, are now long past, and the shape of all lands has been changed; but the regions in which Hobbits then lived were doubtless the same as those in which they still linger: the North-West of the Old World, east of the Sea. Of their original home the Hobbits in Bilbo's time preserved no knowledge. A love of learning (other than genealogical lore) was far from general among them, but there remained still a few in the older families who studied their own books, and even gathered reports of old times and distant lands from Elves, Dwarves, and Men. Their own records began only after the settlement of the Shire, and their most ancient legends hardly looked further back than their Wandering Days. It is clear, nonetheless, from these legends, and from the evidence of their peculiar words and customs, that like many other folk Hobbits had in the distant past moved westward. (LOTR 2-3).
“Chapter 7 The Mirror of Galadriel”:
The chamber was filled with a soft light; its walls were green and silver and its roof of gold. Many Elves were seated there. On two chairs beneath the bole of the tree and canopied by a living bough there sat, side by side, Celeborn and Galadriel. They stood up to greet their guests, after the manner of Elves, even those who were accounted mighty kings. Very tall they were, and the Lady no less tall than the Lord; and they were grave and beautiful, with all the signs of delicate fragility common to their race. They were clad wholly in white; and the hair of the Lady was of deep gold, and the hair of the Lord Celeborn was of silver long and bright; but no sign of age was upon them, unless it were in the depths of their eyes; for these were keen as lances in the starlight, and yet profound, the wells of deep memory, (LOTR 325).
I may post more examples later, as well as instances of where Tolkien's elves came from, conceptually I mean. He barrowed heavily from Old English works, such as the Song of Zetaathon and Freter the strong. This post however, is long enough though. Still I hope that it is informative. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 23:23:22
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That works for me.
Frail elves, right on.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2421 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 15:15:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Aryalómë
The Elves in Middle-earth Roleplaying had no CON problems at all, especially the Noldor, who had a large bonus to theirs.
I don't see why it should be either way in Middle-earth. Except for intoxication resistance, which can be treated as a specific bonus.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Aryalómë
I'm tired of this whole "balanced races" thing. Why must everything be "balanced"?? That's not how it works. A tiger cub could rip a puppy to shreds. No balancing there.
And if there was an RPG based on tiger cubs and puppies, with tiger cubs able to rip puppies to shreds, then everyone would play tiger cubs, and no one would play puppies. That's why the playable races are balanced: so that the human F1 is no better and no worse than an elf F1, who is no better and no worse than a dwarf F1, and so on.
I don't see it as a "must have" quality outside of PvP MUDs. Especially given that this difference is rarely comparable to class difference, which too often leads either to "Linear Warriors, Square Wizards" or to "Fightan Magic".
Things either really differ, or they don't. So trying to enforce "no better and no worse" leads either to having all options beaten with nerf/powercreep until they are essentially all the same with different text and different colors of the Glowing Blurred Snot FXs (like in every other badly made game), or to a degenerate set of circumstances where existing differences don't change the real balance (like in d20 being aimed to hack&slash in a magic-rich and gold-inflated MUD-like "setting").
In an open sandbox, sooner or later even GMs dedicated to "game balance" are doomed to roll eyes and exclaim "so if someone wants to play a hamster - let's give bonuses to the hamsters?!" 
Practically, this seems to be easily solved via separate "puppy" and "tiger cub" campaigns in the same setting. "Draconomicon", for example, have place for both dragon and low-level human PCs - but trying to "balance" one with another would be rather... uh... 
Another side of it is that old good suefication is an ever-present threat, and "fight fire with fire" is more likely to end up in an absurd suescalation than in "no better and no worse".
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Necessary in a game. Makes less sense when you're in a fictional world. Tolkien could have his elves and high men be superior to everyone else because no one was going to come along and try to stat them all out and try to play them (that came much later).
More like one is a prerequisite for another, i.e. if you cannot articulately explain what and why the existing power balance is in the world, you can't reflect it in a quantified model. Exactly the same as with classical examples - Fool's Gold Headache and high-level paladins suddenly popping behind every innkeeper to restrain rowdy adventurers: this happens only if GM doesn't have a clear idea of how rather obvious things fit into the world. 
Generally, dragons are supposed to be bigger and stronger than humans, the end. But advantages may or may not be appliable in any specific situation.
In RPGT, in an urban intrigue campaign a forest tracker has little to do and a wall-climbing silver-tongued bard is a viceroy, while in a wilderness campaign it's the opposite. So it's more about functional niches and "why they are here to begin with?" / "why someone else won't do this instead?" side. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 08 Sep 2012 15:27:43 |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2012 : 19:02:41
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Strange, how did this become a topic on racial modifiers when it was supposed to continue on about Snow Elves?
Anyway, someone mentioned snow elf stats. Use the ones from "Frostburn", simple.
Next, I am aware that, OFFICIALLY, snow elves DO exist in the Realms thanks to a connection made between the snow elf deity, the goddess Auril, and other mentions of snow elves living in the High Ice or somewhere further mentioned in a Realms product or Dragon Magazine article?
Is all of this fact? If so, then it is true about Snow Elves officially being in Faerun and would want clarification, that's all. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2012 : 19:38:52
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However, in retrospect, we now know that Auril is actually the Queen of Air and Darkness, and not necessarily an FR-specific deity.
Which means that the argument "there MUST be snow Elves" because of the Auril connection is rendered moot by new lore. While I am fascinated by the Auril/QoA&D thing (because I pegged the QoA&D as Lolth's mother), I am also disappointed by the loss of the snow elves in FR (not that we ever had them, or need even think that the connections aren't still there... it just means the proof has become a lot less substantial). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2012 : 19:55:20
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I remember reading that about Auril. But I always thought she took on the aspect of Auril once the Faerie phased almost completely away from Toril in order to keep herself rooted there?
Also, how would that make the lore less substantial? When the article was written about Auril and the snow elf deity, it was written with the precedent that Auril was Auril and not the QoA&D.
I assume there's this unwritten rule now that newer FR lore completely trumps former FR lore, especially when contradictions arise? |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2012 : 20:20:12
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| That seems to be the case, though I disagree with that assumption. Why should new lore trump ANYTHING? All that means is that the writer of the new lore either couldn't be bothered to do their homework, or was misinformed or did not have access to the older lore, so made a mistake when writing the new lore. Either way, the older lore is already established and should take precedent- perhaps with some kind of modifier to the new lore to make it fit. That seems more logical to me. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
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Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2012 : 22:41:02
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Yeah, I agree that the 'rule' is kinda pointless, and self-serving. The lore you want to be true should be the lore that is true (for you). Designers don't run my game table; never have, never will.
Canon only matters in regards to the novel setting, which none of us are running. I've really moved far away from the whole concept of canon, actually.
As for my argument about Auril - the Queen of Air and Darkness is a core deity, unlike Auril who was FR-specific. The argument could have been easily made that Auril's mention in the Snow Elves article is 'proof' that there must be FR snow elves, but if she is the QoA&D (which canon now dictates she is), then the proof has become less viable (then it was at the time it was written). In other words, it is now possible that she is also known as Auril on other worlds as well (in fact, I wrote a HB piece saying her name was originally Aurilana, sister of Titania). We never did know the QoA&D real name.
On the other hand, I also have come to the conclusion that the incident of Black Diamond (detailed in the QoA&D's write-up) actually occurred on Toril, in the distant (Creator) past, which brings us full-circle, and means that the snow elf article could still be taken at face value (since the QoA&D started out on Toril, she now becomes an FR deity that has 'gone core', much like Bane and the elemental lords). If she was FR before she was core (some 36K+ years ago), that still isn't proof that Auril is an FR-specific alias, but it does lend credence to the supposition.
As for the Black Diamond itself... well... that's sitting in the Crown of Horns. As to how Myrkul got his hands on it, thats a story for another day.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Nov 2012 22:49:39 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2012 : 00:33:09
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Im glad this subject is back on target (more or less :P). I really like the idea of 'ice cities' in High Ice. They could stunningly beautiful and cater to the very elven love for such beauty.
I would go with the idea of a subset of elves leaving their homeland during the Crown Wars because they were disgusted by the infighting, death of their people, and destruction of nature wrought by said wars. They would have brought magic with them in preparation for climate they would face (perhaps they were led by a small cadre of High Mages).
Now, I really do not like the idea of new subraces. Never really have, but that's just me. But perhaps they used High Magic to alter themselves (just as the elves did to live under the seas) to make themselves more acclimated to the extreme climate. This could explain the range of skin tones from very pale (milky white?) to blue hues. I would favor white, silver, and platinum blonde hair colors with pale colored eyes. The High magic could give them less need for food and more tolerance to extreme cold (perhaps even immunity if you like).
Regarding population: Im thinking that there could be one central city capable of supporting all of them with High Magic having been used to create subterranean gardens and groves (they are elves after all ;). I mean what self-respecting elf abandons trees just because of a little exodus? You could have an entire mythal surrounding the city to make it habitable by other species. Elves are nothing if not persistent and highly adaptable (albeit through their connection to the Weave).
As always, the bottom line is your city and its inhabitants are whatever you want them to be. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2012 : 03:57:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Aryalómë
The Elves in Middle-earth Roleplaying had no CON problems at all, especially the Noldor, who had a large bonus to theirs.
I'm tired of this whole "balanced races" thing. Why must everything be "balanced"?? That's not how it works. A tiger cub could rip a puppy to shreds. No balancing there.
And if there was an RPG based on tiger cubs and puppies, with tiger cubs able to rip puppies to shreds, then everyone would play tiger cubs, and no one would play puppies. That's why the playable races are balanced: so that the human F1 is no better and no worse than an elf F1, who is no better and no worse than a dwarf F1, and so on.
I'd argue against the playable races all being balanced with each other, actually (at least in 3E), but I do agree that the idea is to let everybody be equal. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2012 : 04:22:04
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that idea is stupid.
really really is.
if they wanted the players to be blaanced they should make all the classes have the same bab, the same hp,a nifty bag of tricks( ie spellcasting for casters, fighter styles for fighters etc.)
as it stood in 34, likely 2e as well any f1 was better and worst than the next f1.( even in 4e)
right snow elves.....
they're extinct....... "insert jab at elf hating scribes who hate elves here as tehy killed them" |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
Edited by - sfdragon on 04 Nov 2012 04:23:33 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2012 : 05:11:14
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I used a group of "snow elves" in my side-campaign last winter. It was based on a far-northern island in a town with a castle made of crystaline ice. The elves were working for the castle's rightful owner, a philanthropic fellow who liked to give gifts to deserving folk each year. The elves and their employer had been overthrown and imprisoned by an evil ice-mage and his pet frost-linnorm. Yes, I really WAS running a campaign in Santa's workshop to save Christmas! (Okay, the Solstice Festival, but still...) The party defeated the wizard when the bard managed to charm the wyrm into treating them as friends, and it turned on its master and chomped him. Now they just have to figure out how to get the dragon out of Santa's throne room.... And close that darn portal to the para-elemental ice plane. AND remove the spell-trap on that door in the tower.... Yeah, that campaign got a little crazy! But then where else are you going to find a use for a quartet of ice golems, a gang of ice mephits, or an annis hag sorceress? At least we had fun with it! And the best part? The leader of the elves was named Jack. (Yes, it was Jack Frost. Sue me.)
(I never did find a way to insert Frosty, but I got Rudolph and the rest of the reindeer in!) |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
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My stories:
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http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11809 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2012 : 10:51:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
However, in retrospect, we now know that Auril is actually the Queen of Air and Darkness, and not necessarily an FR-specific deity.
Which means that the argument "there MUST be snow Elves" because of the Auril connection is rendered moot by new lore. While I am fascinated by the Auril/QoA&D thing (because I pegged the QoA&D as Lolth's mother), I am also disappointed by the loss of the snow elves in FR (not that we ever had them, or need even think that the connections aren't still there... it just means the proof has become a lot less substantial).
Sidebar here. I'm not up on the latest 4e lore. Where did we find that Auril is the Queen of Air and Darkness. I'd much prefer it be her, but I thought people were saying Shar was such personage. What product even brought all of this up? Did it even mention Titania and other faerie gods/goddesses? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11809 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2012 : 11:01:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I used a group of "snow elves" in my side-campaign last winter. It was based on a far-northern island in a town with a castle made of crystaline ice. The elves were working for the castle's rightful owner, a philanthropic fellow who liked to give gifts to deserving folk each year. The elves and their employer had been overthrown and imprisoned by an evil ice-mage and his pet frost-linnorm. Yes, I really WAS running a campaign in Santa's workshop to save Christmas! (Okay, the Solstice Festival, but still...) The party defeated the wizard when the bard managed to charm the wyrm into treating them as friends, and it turned on its master and chomped him. Now they just have to figure out how to get the dragon out of Santa's throne room.... And close that darn portal to the para-elemental ice plane. AND remove the spell-trap on that door in the tower.... Yeah, that campaign got a little crazy! But then where else are you going to find a use for a quartet of ice golems, a gang of ice mephits, or an annis hag sorceress? At least we had fun with it! And the best part? The leader of the elves was named Jack. (Yes, it was Jack Frost. Sue me.)
(I never did find a way to insert Frosty, but I got Rudolph and the rest of the reindeer in!)
Frosty was a simulacrum of Jack's. You probably didn't notice him due to the illusion covering his form. But if you'd have used true seeing, you'd have seen the snowman underneath.
"Frosty the Simulacrum, was a jolly happy soul,
with a corncob pipe and a button nose and two eyes made out of coal" |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2012 : 18:16:34
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Titania was either renamed (for whatever obscure, designer-driven reason), or there is someone new taking her place within the Fey pantheon. Its 4e lore - I don't recall the name*, and can't seem to find it.
I did find that some folk seem to think Cegilune - the Hag Queen - is Titania's sister. That means either Titania has two sisters, or Cegilune is another (post-black diamond?) name for Auril/tQoA&D. Thta means that if cegilune is another name for the QoA&D, that name is probably the one after her corruption, and it lends some credence to Auril - the pre-black diamond name - being only known on Toril (so then we DO have snow elves LOL).
There is another 'Faery Queen' from Dragon #155 called Rhiannon, but one can assume there are probably dozens, if not hundreds, of 'lesser queens' throughout the multiverse. Titania just happen to be the one that ascended to godhood (who I peg as Danu's daughter - a primordial goddess who sacrificed herself to create Faerie within the Feywild for her people... buts thats homebrew).
However, doesn't this (that Auril = QoA&D) mean that any sort of 'cold fey', including snow elves, should be... ummmm... less then 'nice'? 
*I think I found it - I believe it is Morwel. I thought it also began with a 'T', but I guess I was mistaken. I have no idea what Morwel's relationship to Titania is, if any. Some of the 4e Eladrin/Fey lore isn't half bad - I will have to take a closer look at it.
EDIT: Reading her specific entry (which I linked above), after diverting from the Eladrin entry, it seems to disagree with my assumptions - Morwel isn't fey (and neither are Eladrin... now I'm REALLY confused). Perhaps I was right after all - there is yet another with the title 'Queen of the fey' in 4e (which, as I have said, I thought began with a 'T').
EDIT2: The wiki still lists Titania as the Faerie Queen (of Seelie Fey) in 4e, which is either wrong, was changed, or I am mis-remembering something. However, as always, the Wiki is biased and the info incomplete/inaccurate.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Nov 2012 18:34:57 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2012 : 21:35:33
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| In 4e she's called Tiandra (Manual of the Planes) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2012 : 03:21:08
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Yeah, thats it... thanks Quale. Should have known you'd know.
My memory isn't what it used to be, but I knew Morwel just didn't sound right. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11809 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2012 : 05:54:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Titania was either renamed (for whatever obscure, designer-driven reason), or there is someone new taking her place within the Fey pantheon. Its 4e lore - I don't recall the name*, and can't seem to find it.
I did find that some folk seem to think Cegilune - the Hag Queen - is Titania's sister. That means either Titania has two sisters, or Cegilune is another (post-black diamond?) name for Auril/tQoA&D. Thta means that if cegilune is another name for the QoA&D, that name is probably the one after her corruption, and it lends some credence to Auril - the pre-black diamond name - being only known on Toril (so then we DO have snow elves LOL).
There is another 'Faery Queen' from Dragon #155 called Rhiannon, but one can assume there are probably dozens, if not hundreds, of 'lesser queens' throughout the multiverse. Titania just happen to be the one that ascended to godhood (who I peg as Danu's daughter - a primordial goddess who sacrificed herself to create Faerie within the Feywild for her people... buts thats homebrew).
However, doesn't this (that Auril = QoA&D) mean that any sort of 'cold fey', including snow elves, should be... ummmm... less then 'nice'?
*I think I found it - I believe it is Morwel. I thought it also began with a 'T', but I guess I was mistaken. I have no idea what Morwel's relationship to Titania is, if any. Some of the 4e Eladrin/Fey lore isn't half bad - I will have to take a closer look at it.
EDIT: Reading her specific entry (which I linked above), after diverting from the Eladrin entry, it seems to disagree with my assumptions - Morwel isn't fey (and neither are Eladrin... now I'm REALLY confused). Perhaps I was right after all - there is yet another with the title 'Queen of the fey' in 4e (which, as I have said, I thought began with a 'T').
EDIT2: The wiki still lists Titania as the Faerie Queen (of Seelie Fey) in 4e, which is either wrong, was changed, or I am mis-remembering something. However, as always, the Wiki is biased and the info incomplete/inaccurate.
What you're reading fits. Morwel is from 3e eladrin lore (when the eladrins were ultra-powerful fey beings like elves). Titania is specifically the Queen of the Seelie Court in the old second edition lore, so it still interests me whether they kept Titania as a separate entity if they combined Auril and the Queen of Air and Darkness. I do think combining Auril and the QueenoA&D is a better move than what I saw someone else quoting previously (that the QueenoA&D was actually Shar). Auril has always seemed more "fey" to me. What would scare me would be if they make Shar and Cegilune the same, because then Titania becomes Selune (the stories of Cegilune and Titania very much have in common the "polar opposites of light and darkness" that's common to Shar and Selune, even that Cegilune is an "evil lunar goddess").
Cegilune and the Queen of Air and Darkness are both hinted at as being sisters of Titania in the original Monster Mythology where they're introduced. The Queen of Air and Darkness heads up the Unseelie Court, whereas Cegilune is "an evil lunar goddess who is patron deity of the hags, annises, and similar fell folk of the world". The two goddesses are treated in that original source as 2 different entities, but even it hints that the two might be the same. I personally prefer the two being different and having Cegilune strictly for hags and other "witch-like" non-humanoids (i.e. I could see trolls, ogre, and giant sorceresses/warlocks/priestesses worshipping Cegilune). I can also see some Kiaransalee followers who don't turn to Lolth actually turning to Cegilune.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11809 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2012 : 05:55:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
In 4e she's called Tiandra (Manual of the Planes)
ah, answer solved. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2012 : 07:28:59
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quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
However, you can still achieve balance without artificially nerfing a stat, or using level adjustment. If you want to loose the CON negative, just dump the 1st level Feat. you have to give up something, but it doesn't have to be other stat points.
I never bothered with negatives myself - I had my own system.
Yes, assuming that one is using 3E.
How does all this work in 4E?
I know D&D and AD&D well.
In 4e, races don't take negatives. Every race gets +2 to two different stats- the Player's Handbook 3, and subsequent sources, have implemented that all races have one fixed bonus stat and then a choice between two others. For instance, half-orcs have a fixed +2 to dex and the choice between a +2 to str or con.
The exception is humans, who only get +2 to one stat, but they can choose any stat to take the bonus in. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
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Snow Elves
