| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
|
|
Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1270 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Apr 2013 : 03:25:48
|
| Saw your post about that on Facebook, Mr. James. I've throughly enjoyed the book, myself, and the poster map is beautiful. Not having access to the Menzo boxed set that others have mentioned, I personally loved the level of detail. It leaves enough stuff vague so I as a DM can "flesh it out" to taste, and yet provides plenty of detail so that I have the bulk of my work finished if I'm whipping things together on the fly. Combined with the copy of Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark a friend got me, it's all I could ever need. Best of luck to you, thank you for your work, and I hope your nomination wins. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
 |
|
|
Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2013 : 06:36:29
|
| Congrats Brian! |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
|
|
|
MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2013 : 04:11:14
|
@Shere Khan - Multiple families can have the same name. The drow house names are supposed to derived from prefixes and suffixes. So house Despana means "Victors of the - Night" (Desp-ana) Most names are also made by this prefix-suffix system. Hence why there are many drow named Viconia. There are probably multiple Drizzt Do'Urdens in the world and certainly through the many planes of existence. Just as there are many John Smiths, Mohommed Abullahs and Wei Changs in the real world.
House Vandree jumped ahead because its Matron Mother was resourceful as described in the 4e campaign setting. Most of what happens is not explained, but why does it need to be? Fill in the blanks yourself. A house being weak at one point does not mean it will stay that. An error or victory can change fortunes. Think of the real world where nations rise and fall, why would noble families (led by priestesses of a capricious deity no less) not do the same? House Vandree is not the first house to leapfrog over many others, House Del'Armgo did the same as you can read in the 2e Menzo Box Set. House Millithor was house #25 in 2e and now is 14, and House Ousttyl was rank like #52 (or something?) in the War of the Spider Queen, for example. (Perhaps refugees from the Ched Nasad House Oustyl merged with Menzo's...there are many possibilities)
Halisstra Melarn is probably not known to have failed. She was transformed into a powerful being by Lolth is all people would know. In the Lady Penitent Series all those drow who followed her and learned her bardic magic obviously thought highly of her. Naming a house after her seems appropriate. (Just as you might name a University or City "St. John's") Obviously the more powerful potential matron thought it more prudent to let the other person become Matron for political reasons. (There is more to power than being the figure head, and she probably calculated that was the best move)
The power level number mechanics is an easy thing to answer..... they don't know what number people are using in a game. They don't know how powerful another house is? One house could have more powerful members but a weaker fortress, etc. If you were to rate yourself in power on 1-15 versus another person, how would you do that? We get these numbers because we are omniscient spectators, the actual people involved are not.
It is unfortunate they couldn't record all new material but they are a company trying to make money. When did the 2e box set come out? Can it still be bought other than through something like paizo? I bought it at a second hand books store, not everyone is so lucky or necessarily interested in doing that. This product seems very good to me and accessible to new audiences. Obviously other people agree with me since it was nominated for an award!
EDIT: I see why the canon matters to those of us attached to us. But these things are meant to be used by us in our own stories and worlds we create (hence the list of alternate histories, also included) I just started (I bought this book yesterday) planning out my own interpretation of the new information in 1490 with levels of the characters such as "First Daughter: Myerynyl (CE female drow Cleric [Lolth] 8)" and "Matron Mother: Quenthel CE female Drow Cleric [Lolth] 15 Divine Disciple 5 Hierophant 3)" If you don't like something, change it. I'm not planning on having a House Melarn in my own Menzo, for example.
BUT
I am confused about the part where it says sisters of nobles lose their noble status when a new matron mother is named. If that is the case, why did Quenthel etc. never seem to have this fear when Triel was Matron Mother? It seemed like the Baenre family members were planning on being around each other for quite a while not lose their noble status. It says Sos'Umpta is going to start a new house because of this when the daughter of Quenthel becomes a High Priestess. if everyone gets booted out of the family with every matron mother how are any left? That doesn't make sense to me, and it doesn't seem to follow previous canon unless previous canon was contadictory. I got the impression new families were started by family members who didn't get what they wanted in the current hierarchy not that they were booted out. Sos'Umpta should certainly be able to kill Quenthel's daughters if it was a matter like that, shouldn't she? Also then why are their cousins and extended family part of their family now? |
Edited by - MrHedgehog on 05 Jun 2013 04:27:18 |
|
|
|
Shere Khan
Acolyte
36 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2013 : 06:21:06
|
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
@Shere Khan - Multiple families can have the same name. The drow house names are supposed to derived from prefixes and suffixes. So house Despana means "Victors of the - Night" (Desp-ana) Most names are also made by this prefix-suffix system. Hence why there are many drow named Viconia. There are probably multiple Drizzt Do'Urdens in the world and certainly through the many planes of existence. Just as there are many John Smiths, Mohommed Abullahs and Wei Changs in the real world.
Unlike later sources, the 2e Menzo boxed set contained entirely original house names for Menzo that weren't taken from Greyhawk.
quote:
House Vandree jumped ahead because its Matron Mother was resourceful as described in the 4e campaign setting.
That's useless hand-waving. A house advances because they've gained POWER, and because the ruling council (ie House Baenre) is willing to advance them, as was done with House Barrison Del'Armgo in the past. Otherwise they have to systematically destroy the higher ranked houses one by one without leaving a single surviving witness of sufficient stature to complain to the ruling council. It's certainly within the realm of possibility that Vandree could have somehow gained both the power required and the willingness of the ruling council to advance them. The feeling I got however was that the authors simply decided to advance a few of their favorite houses with little thought to why or how, just for the sake of change. That's nice, but that's not worth buying a book for. I can do that myself, and come up with far better explanations that build on the old lore instead of trampling it.
quote:
Most of what happens is not explained, but why does it need to be? Fill in the blanks yourself.
Dude, I buy books for great story ideas, not for shallow fluff.
quote:
A house being weak at one point does not mean it will stay that. An error or victory can change fortunes.
I don't need to buy a new book to know any of that.
quote:
Think of the real world where nations rise and fall, why would noble families (led by priestesses of a capricious deity no less) not do the same?
I enjoy reading histories on how those nations were built, why they became powerful, how they maintained their power, and why they later fell. That is why I buy books, for a thoughtfully developed background that I can plug and play to create wondrous stories, not for shallow and highly arbitrary fluff that I can create myself in a matter of seconds.
quote:
House Vandree is not the first house to leapfrog over many others, House Del'Armgo did the same as you can read in the 2e Menzo Box Set.
And the 2e Menzo Boxed Set did an excellent job of explaining these advances giving the reader insight into the mechinations of the Drow. The new book doesn't even try to explain the arbitrary changes it presents.
quote:
House Millithor was house #25 in 2e and now is 14, and House Ousttyl was rank like #52 (or something?) in the War of the Spider Queen, for example. (Perhaps refugees from the Ched Nasad House Oustyl merged with Menzo's...there are many possibilities)
If I have to figure it all out for myself then I see no point in buying the book. I can create very good stories myself thank you very much. I can even more easily create an arbitrary list of winners and losers just as the new book does It's both more useful and time consuming to come up with why they're winners and losers, and that's where the book falls far short.
quote:
Halisstra Melarn is probably not known to have failed. She was transformed into a powerful being by Lolth is all people would know. In the Lady Penitent Series all those drow who followed her and learned her bardic magic obviously thought highly of her. Naming a house after her seems appropriate. (Just as you might name a University or City "St. John's") Obviously the more powerful potential matron thought it more prudent to let the other person become Matron for political reasons. (There is more to power than being the figure head, and she probably calculated that was the best move)
I will be highly surprised if WotC will ever state or even imply such a thing. I've grown so used to them trampling carelessly over their own IP that I've lost interest in attempting to rationalize the countless inconsistencies they generate, or in following the numerous arbitrary changes they make for no logical reason. Hopefully Ed can bring some sanity back to the realms, and that includes the Drow. Bob Salvatore however was the primary author of the book on the noble houses in the Menzo boxed set, and nothing even remotely close to its equal has been produced by WoTC on the noble houses of Menzo since.
quote:
The power level number mechanics is an easy thing to answer..... they don't know what number people are using in a game. They don't know how powerful another house is? One house could have more powerful members but a weaker fortress, etc.
All this knowledge was handed to us on a platter in 2e Menzo. It not only gave us insight and made complete sense. Now with the new book you get a a large slice of well-written info from the old 2 e boxed set, mostly from the old city book by Greenwood, along with a bunch of random changes that you're better off making yourself than buying a book for. More than half of the new book is in fact a word for word regurgitation of Greenwood's old City Book. The description of the noble houses on the other hand is downright pathetic in comparison to Salvatore's old masterwork on them from the boxed set.
quote:
If you were to rate yourself in power on 1-15 versus another person, how would you do that? We get these numbers because we are omniscient spectators, the actual people involved are not.
The numbers are arbitrary and useless. In the 2e boxed set I had a real sense of where the houses stood in comparison to each other from their detailed explanations, and the complicated relationship between them generated an endless number of great stories with minimal effort on my part. On the other hand the new book contains a little bit of shallow fluff that leaves all the heavy lifting to me as the DM. Bah.
That said, I don't blame the authors. Published D&D works have become shallower over the years, even as the combat splats got bigger, the page counts dropped, the fonts got larger, and the only thing that improved from my perspective was the artwork. Personally I think D&D has lost its way. There's more to a good adventure than killing monsters and collecting loot. The story matters too, and those have grown shallower over the years.
quote:
It is unfortunate they couldn't record all new material but they are a company trying to make money. When did the 2e box set come out? Can it still be bought other than through something like paizo? I bought it at a second hand books store, not everyone is so lucky or necessarily interested in doing that. This product seems very good to me and accessible to new audiences. Obviously other people agree with me since it was nominated for an award!
The book may be of some significant value to someone totally new to Menzo who can't get a hold of the older boxed set. The parts lifted verbatim from the original boxed set -are- excellently written. Greenwood, Salvatore, and the other authors who assisted them did a masterful job writing that set. For those who have that original boxed set from which 80% of the material in the new book comes, the new book just doesn't measure up. It didn't need to be entirely, or even mostly comprised of new material, but it presents the small bit of new material it contains so shallowly that imho it is a major disappointment.
quote:
EDIT: I see why the canon matters to those of us attached to us. But these things are meant to be used by us in our own stories and worlds we create (hence the list of alternate histories, also included) I just started (I bought this book yesterday) planning out my own interpretation of the new information in 1490 with levels of the characters such as "First Daughter: Myerynyl (CE female drow Cleric [Lolth] 8)" and "Matron Mother: Quenthel CE female Drow Cleric [Lolth] 15 Divine Disciple 5 Hierophant 3)" If you don't like something, change it. I'm not planning on having a House Melarn in my own Menzo, for example.
Likewise, there is a lot that was published in late 3e and 4e that I'm totally ignoring because I consider it hacked together without much thought, and I'm perfectly capable of coming up with better myself.
quote:
BUT
I am confused about the part where it says sisters of nobles lose their noble status when a new matron mother is named. If that is the case, why did Quenthel etc. never seem to have this fear when Triel was Matron Mother? It seemed like the Baenre family members were planning on being around each other for quite a while not lose their noble status. It says Sos'Umpta is going to start a new house because of this when the daughter of Quenthel becomes a High Priestess. if everyone gets booted out of the family with every matron mother how are any left? That doesn't make sense to me, and it doesn't seem to follow previous canon unless previous canon was contadictory. I got the impression new families were started by family members who didn't get what they wanted in the current hierarchy not that they were booted out. Sos'Umpta should certainly be able to kill Quenthel's daughters if it was a matter like that, shouldn't she? Also then why are their cousins and extended family part of their family now?
From what I recall, Salvatore, in Homeland, stated that only the matron's direct children, the house wizard, the weapon master and the matron's patron were considered noble, although this was soon expanded to include grandchildren, surviving sisters and brothers, as well as houseless Drow refugees whom the matron has accepted into her house. A matron could adopt another talented Drow into her house and advance that drow above all of her own sons or daughters if she chooses just as Matron Malice did in one of Salvatore's stories. Basically a matron had full power to accept any Drow she desired into her house for any reason, and she's just as free to dispose of them at any time on a whim. I was ok with this expansion. It made sense given the way Lolthian Drow matrons operate. It also made sense from a societal perspective. This change you mention sounds like a regression back to Salvatore's original concept in Homeland, which even Salvatore didn't stick to for the entire trilogy. Drow matrons are too chaotic and individualistic to stick to a rule like "only your own children can be nobles" when it is detrimental to their house's survival and/or their own advancement. Some of them might despise or fear their sisters and want them out of their hair, while others may get along passingly well with them and see clear advantage in keeping them in the family. Sos'Umpta has always been one of the cooler and more diplomatic heads in House Baenre with a good sense of her limitations, ie. she doesn't stupidly and pointlessly antagonize her more powerful sisters. It makes no sense to toss her out since one of the measures of a house's power is the number and power of its priestesses, especially when matrons have the authority to adopt new members into their house. Although it may be necessary for her to swallow her pride and act like she's her younger sister's daughter, and that might be hard for a lot of prideful drow high priestesses to swallow.
That said, quite a few matrons would no doubt even be willing to promote a deep gnome above all of their own daughters if that deep gnome could give them the power to become the first house of the city. And as you mentioned, regressing back to a more limited definition of Drow nobility contradicts years of previously established realms lore which in this case was codified in the 2e boxed set.
I've long since grown tired of WoTC authors who know less about the lore than we do trampling the world and creating inconsistencies in the process. It's made me jaded. |
Edited by - Shere Khan on 27 Jun 2013 15:03:12 |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Menzoberranzan City of Intrigue
