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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Aug 2012 : 18:42:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
Are the house ranking and personal ranking rules any good? What about house creation? I'm hoping to get my review copy in a few weeks...
The ranking system rules I thought were great! They indeed ARE useful for any time period.
WOTC managed to pull this one off. If not for the cover, you could not tell it is a 4e book. There IS stuff on the spellplague in the book, but it is limited to Who is doing WHAT during that time period.
I would have liked to see a breakdown of each time period for EACH faction, insead of just focusing on ONE for most of the factions.
Ofcourse some factions like House Do'Urden would have been destroyed before the Time of Troubles, so no harm there. For example though, a House like Malarn I would have liked to see pre spellplague plans for them.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2012 : 18:50:48
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| Hopefully with 5E, Quenthal Baenre destroys House Melarn. I never cared for why they just magically showed up on the ruling council, it just wasn't believable. I'd be curious to know what happened to House Agrach Dyrr as they were supposed to be a vassal house of Baenre and now appear destroyed. Suppose it's entirely possible the Baenre obliterated them too. |
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Vaeldroth
Acolyte
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 18:12:50
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I agree, this book is just terrific.
The only thing mentioned mechanically is the Drow favor cards, which don't seem to be tied to 4e. Are we going toward the new books being put out each having their own self-contained mechanics? That would be awesome.
Too bad they didn't use the Chapter 6 art for the cover. The cover at is absolutely awful. |
Edited by - Vaeldroth on 27 Aug 2012 18:21:23 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 22:07:28
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Referring to this suggestion:
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
unfortunately the content with Elistraee and Vhaerun didn't make the final cut. The best way you can voice your support for the siblings would be to contact Wizards directly. who knows, if enough people show interest there a possibility that it could be released online sometime in the future.
I've taken the time to put together a request to release the cut content with Eilistraee and Vhaeraun as archfey in the form of a DDI article. If anyone is interested in having a say in this, the thread is here. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 27 Aug 2012 22:08:03 |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2012 : 10:32:09
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| This is on my 'To buy' list. Mostly, because it's the collecting urge. I suspect there'll be parts (maybe many parts) of it that I won't like or accept. Some of the comments in this thread are interesting. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2012 : 13:17:59
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| When I designed the Drow Treachery cards, it was clear from the start that I wanted them to be usable in any edition. The book supported this and it came together very nicely. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2012 : 20:16:00
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| PM me your address. I'll send you a copy. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2012 : 02:07:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
PM me your address. I'll send you a copy.
While I appreciate the offer, Matt, it's more than likely that your shipping it from the US to Australia will take about 4-to-6 weeks, which is about the same time I'll have to wait anyway.
Besides, I just re-instated my pre-order late last evening from an Australian distributor.
Thanks again, though. I'm humbled by your effort to hook me up with this new source.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2012 : 04:19:41
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
PM me your address. I'll send you a copy.
While I appreciate the offer, Matt, it's more than likely that your shipping it from the US to Australia will take about 4-to-6 weeks, which is about the same time I'll have to wait anyway.
What? I bet Matt had a portal or planar sending spell all set up to go for you. But nooo . . . you had to go and turn him down. Tsk, tsk, Sage.
No--it's too late, now. You've squandered a most excellent opportunity!  |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2012 : 01:52:08
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
PM me your address. I'll send you a copy.
While I appreciate the offer, Matt, it's more than likely that your shipping it from the US to Australia will take about 4-to-6 weeks, which is about the same time I'll have to wait anyway.
What? I bet Matt had a portal or planar sending spell all set up to go for you. But nooo . . . you had to go and turn him down. Tsk, tsk, Sage.
No--it's too late, now. You've squandered a most excellent opportunity!
Ha! If Matt really conceived of such magicks, surely he would have ferried me all the way to Gen Con 2012. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2012 : 02:16:15
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| I try not to abuse my arcane supremacy. |
Edited by - Matt James on 31 Aug 2012 02:16:34 |
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe
Denmark
197 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2012 : 17:08:31
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Hmm, sounds as if I will actually have to go and buy this source book even though it has been written after 4e was released. |
Edited by - Gustaveren on 01 Sep 2012 17:09:16 |
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Vaeldroth
Acolyte
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2012 : 08:47:37
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| Sad that this book has only seen 2 pages of dicussion. It really has so much to offer. Has anyone else bought it yet? |
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farinal
Learned Scribe
Turkey
270 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2012 : 00:49:55
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| I bought mine a week ago. I liked it. The map is really cool. I also liked the art. There are some good ideas and hooks for Drow campaign. Sometimes it is hard to maintain a drow party but the ideas and information in the book is a great help for any drow campaign DM. Mostly I bought the book to support the Wizards, because I want more books like this. Edition-free and full of lore. I already knew nearly all the things in the book about Menzoberranzan but enjoyed it anyway. There are also some new stuff that hasn't been written before. I recommend it. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2012 : 01:59:30
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It was pretty good. I wish it would have been another hundred pages long or so. The detailed businesses and map key at the end of the book was pretty sweet. Nice little list of places a DM can import to any drow or underdark city. Now what I would really like, would be to see the 2E Menzoberranzan supplement released with any and all files that may have been cut with the original (Director's Cut etc). More info, maps of compounds and other places etc. Heck maybe they could even add the stuff that was cut in this one too.
It's a good book. This one, plus the 2E Menzoberranzan and the Drow of the Underdark 2E are pretty much all a person needs to reference for drow centric info. Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark 2E is another really good one I should add too.
I just hope Salvatore or 5E destroys House Melarn, it just doesn't belong there in my opinion. A house created in honor of a heretic doesn't seem like something that would last long in Menzo with the Baenre's in charge. The Do'Urden clan was destroyed for a far less offense. I'd expect the same of the Melarn, sooner than later. |
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Derulbaskul
Senior Scribe
Singapore
408 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2012 : 07:50:31
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The Demon Weave is the first RSE that I have actually liked and will use in my games ([heresy]actually, second: I'm rather enamoured with the Spellplague now[/heresy]).
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
You know the loremasters have got to stretch whatever limits are imposed upon them by cramming rough drafts/manuscripts chock full of tidbits of info, only to have to wait and see what the editors and managers will hold onto and keep for the final copy. Page count limits are rough!
It's even worse with 4E books because the fonts are very large and there is a lot of white space. In other words, there is a lot of room for extra content even if the font size was reduced by a solitary point.
I've had Eilistraee as an archfey IMC since 4E's Manual of the Planes mentioned a lycanthrope-hunting archfey that simply seemed to me to be a certain drow deity in disguise.... |
Cheers
D
NB: Please remember: A cannon is a big gun. Canon is what we discuss here. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2012 : 10:28:45
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| It's not the same thing: the Maiden of the Moon dances at the moon and wields a bastard sword, but it's not what makes Eilistraee. She should be fighting for the freedom of her people, to give them their lives and choices back, and as archfey she could do it even more 'side to side' with them (so to speak), than when she was a deity with craptons of rules to respect. I see the Dark Maiden as a 'romantic' and passionate rebel rather than a huntress, and even tho she is one, it's not what defines her and what she stands for (but just my take here: naturally, people can do whatever they wish in their campaigns). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 15:43:21
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| I'm still waiting for my review copy to arrive. I heard mostly positive reviews. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 17:26:11
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| Because of the buzz over Elminster's Forgotten Realms, I started paging through this as the FLGS. It looked pretty interesting, and I may end up picking it up. It also mad a lot of my fellow gamers scratch their heads, since I've not purchased a D&D book from the store in years. |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2012 : 18:14:33
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Finally got my review copy.
I'm a little disappointed, I hoped for more new info, while most of it is known to me, as I'm a major drow fan. But I agree it's great for newcomers.
The map and the art are indeed brilliant, I especially loved the House art. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Shere Khan
Acolyte
36 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2012 : 03:54:18
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I finally got around to reading this, and I have to say that I feel a bit disappointed. Two-thirds of the material in the book was just a rehash of material found in other books. The one-third that was original was dealt with in a very cursory and shallow manner.
The house ranking changes also seem rather arbitrary and poorly thought out, or at least in dire need of a good explanation. How the heck did a weak, pathetic House like Vandree jump a dozen rankings past extremely formidable houses like Duskryn? Why did Faen Tlabbar, a house that was never dependent on wizardry power, lose it's #3 ranking after the spellplague to Xorlarrin, a house that was totally dependent on wizardry?
Why is Menzoberranzan suddenly recycling house names from Ched Nasad (Melarn) and Greyhawk's Erelhei-Cinlu (Godeep, Despana)? Ok, Melarn got a little bit of an explanation, but I have real trouble buying into it. Why would the experienced matron mother, of what according to the chart on page 31 is the stronger house in 1372, give up control to the inexperienced, young former 2nd daughter of the weaker house? especially when that weaker house is tainted by the heresy of Eilstraee worship? Why would she agree to rename her house because of some pathetic refugees from a failed city?
The house/organization power metric is also rather questionable. Xorlarrin and Faen Tlabbar both have power rankings of 12, while Barrison Del'Armgo has a power ranking of 11. Yet while Xorlarrin has inexplicably surpassed Faen Tlabbar to become the 3rd ranked house, it has not surpassed 2nd ranked Barrison Del'Armgo (and neither has Faen Tlabbar).
The biggest let down to me was the lack of detail, particularly with regard to the current political situation between all the important houses, not just the authors' favorites. I was hoping for a post-spellplague update of a much-loved campaign setting of old. In the end this book feels like a short, overly simplified, dumbed down version of its antecedents. It attempts to cover too many different time periods and thus ends up covering none of them adequately. |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2012 : 20:15:12
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| Well, I have to agree with Shere Khan. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Shere Khan
Acolyte
36 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2012 : 05:01:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
Well, I have to agree with Shere Khan.
I ran an "evil" campaign in Menzo during the 90's based on the 2e boxed set. The book on the noble houses in the 2nd edition boxed set was a masterpiece. The city book was most excellent too. Neither of those has been matched since. The adventure book was the weakest link in the chain, as it had enough large plot holes to float an aircraft carrier through, but it did have quite a quite a few interesting ideas, characters, and locations that a DM could run with. Mantol-Derith quickly comes to mind!
We have lots of fun memories playing wickedly evil drow. MCoI just doesn't measure up to the old boxed set. I recognize that they had a lot less space to work with, so it's not entirely the authors fault, but to those of us who have the old products this latest product does come as a slap in the face.
And I do think I was being too generous when I said 2/3 of the material was a rehash, it's more like 80%. Much of the book is just copy and pasted from the older books. I suppose new players may find it a decent buy, but if someone really wants to learn more about the drow, then both the 2e and 3.5e versions of Drow of the Underdark go into considerably more detail (the 2e version is more realmsy, the 3.5e version is more greyhawky), and nothing tops the old 2e Menzoberranzan boxed set when it comes to knowledge of Menzoberranzan as a setting, both the city itself, and the noble house intrigue that makes it so compelling.
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Edited by - Shere Khan on 04 Nov 2012 05:04:57 |
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Laeknir
Seeker
68 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2012 : 15:50:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Shere Khan
quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
Well, I have to agree with Shere Khan.
(snip) And I do think I was being too generous when I said 2/3 of the material was a rehash, it's more like 80%. Much of the book is just copy and pasted from the older books.
I think the same thing can be said of almost every 3.5 hardback setting book. Not much in the way of new content, and when it was there the quality wasn't up to the same level.
Very disappointing, but it seems to be a core practice of WotC that hasn't yet changed.
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Shere Khan
Acolyte
36 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2012 : 16:03:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Laeknir
quote:
Originally posted by Shere Khan
quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
Well, I have to agree with Shere Khan.
(snip) And I do think I was being too generous when I said 2/3 of the material was a rehash, it's more like 80%. Much of the book is just copy and pasted from the older books.
I think the same thing can be said of almost every 3.5 hardback setting book. Not much in the way of new content, and when it was there the quality wasn't up to the same level.
Very disappointing, but it seems to be a core practice of WotC that hasn't yet changed.
Sadly, I agree. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2012 : 17:04:12
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As much as I dislike defending WotC, I think it is unreasonable to expect that a sourcebook, covering an already covered area, is going to be all new lore. Much of the old lore -- like history, geography, and in many case prominent NPCs -- is still going to be accurate.
With many people not having ready access to older information, including it in the newer sourcebook is a good way of getting it into the hands of the customer. Even if you do have access to the older lore, it's nice to have it all (or at least mostly) in one place, instead of having to look thru a boxed set and multiple prior sourcebooks, in addition to the newest one.
I'm not going to comment on the quality of the new lore -- I'm simply addressing the issue of the inclusion of older lore. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Shere Khan
Acolyte
36 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2012 : 17:44:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
As much as I dislike defending WotC, I think it is unreasonable to expect that a sourcebook, covering an already covered area, is going to be all new lore.
I don't believe anyone said it should be "all" new lore.
quote:
Much of the old lore -- like history, geography, and in many case prominent NPCs -- is still going to be accurate.
True. Nevertheless the older boxed set did a much more thorough job of covering all that.
quote:
With many people not having ready access to older information, including it in the newer sourcebook is a good way of getting it into the hands of the customer. Even if you do have access to the older lore, it's nice to have it all (or at least mostly) in one place, instead of having to look thru a boxed set and multiple prior sourcebooks, in addition to the newest one.
But it's still not mostly in one place, there are tons of things that were left out of the new sourcebook. If I want to know something about Menzoberranzan, the city itself, the city book from the boxed set is still the best source. If I want to know something about its noble houses, the noble house book from the boxed set is still by far the best source. And if I want to know about Drow in the realms in general, the 2e version of Drow of the Underdark by Ed Greenwood is still the best source. The new sourcebook is a jack of all trades, and a master of none. Unfortunately it doesn't even do a good job of describing post-spellplague Menzobarranzan, the one thing I most wanted from it, except at the most shallow level. It all too often left me scratching my head when the original sources did not.
quote:
I'm not going to comment on the quality of the new lore -- I'm simply addressing the issue of the inclusion of older lore.
If the quality of the new material were higher, I'd be more inclined to forgive the rest.
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2012 : 10:56:44
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| Well, I don't mind the inclusion of old lore as such, but the fact it's 80% old lore, 20% new lore and the new is practically unnoticeable. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Shere Khan
Acolyte
36 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2012 : 23:21:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
Well, I don't mind the inclusion of old lore as such, but the fact it's 80% old lore, 20% new lore and the new is practically unnoticeable.
Yup, I should also add that if we subtract out the demonweave material that's also found in Council of Spiders, we're down to less than 10% original material, nearly all of which is oversimplified and lacking in depth, which is what I think makes it so unnoticeable. |
Edited by - Shere Khan on 12 Nov 2012 23:23:21 |
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Menzoberranzan City of Intrigue
