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Saxmilian
Learned Scribe
USA
157 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Aug 2012 : 13:32:14
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My Druid is about to get Wildshape Elemntal and wonders if they grapple a target while a Water Elemental would the subject drown? Any ideas?
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2012 : 14:19:26
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| Depending on what ruleset you use, I'd use some combination of grapple checks and constitution checks to see if the elemental was able to cover the grappled person's mouth and nose, and if the grapplee could hold his breath. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4460 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2012 : 14:46:14
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| Depending on the edition, I'd probably start any round in which the grapple is maintained as 1/round where the target starts to drown. But I don't think there is any official rule covering the matter. |
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Saxmilian
Learned Scribe
USA
157 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2012 : 15:07:44
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| Sorry 3.5 rules. How about subject drowning and forced to hold breath during the "Pin" maneuver of the Grapple? That sound fair? |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12020 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2012 : 16:42:20
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| be wary of the ground you tread. It may be that suddenly the part is overwhelmed with water elemental monks that start drowning them. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4460 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2012 : 18:12:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Saxmilian
Sorry 3.5 rules. How about subject drowning and forced to hold breath during the "Pin" maneuver of the Grapple? That sound fair?
Sounds fair enough to me. Just as long as its the same checks to break the grapple as normal. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2012 : 18:12:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Depending on the edition, I'd probably start any round in which the grapple is maintained as 1/round where the target starts to drown. But I don't think there is any official rule covering the matter.
I, personally, wouldn't have the grapple automatically equal drowning... You can effectively grab and immobilize someone without covering their mouth and nose.
I'd do it as a modified grapple, I think, with an additional modifier to represent covering the grapplee's face, and they'd still get to make a constitution check to try to hold their breath. Maybe a dexterity check, as the grapple is happening, to see what's coming and take one final breath, but CON afterward to hold it. And since the person is being grappled, there would be negative modifiers to that CON check -- they're exerting themselves and there is likely additional pressure on the chest. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4460 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2012 : 18:35:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Depending on the edition, I'd probably start any round in which the grapple is maintained as 1/round where the target starts to drown. But I don't think there is any official rule covering the matter.
I, personally, wouldn't have the grapple automatically equal drowning... You can effectively grab and immobilize someone without covering their mouth and nose.
Perhaps I'm not understanding the rules for drowning. A character can hold their breath with no check required for double their Constitution score. Meaning anyone with a Con of 10 can go 20 rounds without even trying to fight against someone drowning them. Once that time passes, they have to start making DC 10 Constitution checks, which increase by 1 for every round. So my solution was to forgo all the rounds where the grappled target can just sit there and hold their breath and start making Constitution checks. Or to make it a little bit easier on the target that's grappled, perhaps they can hold their breath 1 round for every 5 points of Constitution they have. Thus someone with a Con of 10 could go 2 rounds holding their breath and THEN start making Constitution checks.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'd do it as a modified grapple, I think, with an additional modifier to represent covering the grapplee's face, and they'd still get to make a constitution check to try to hold their breath. Maybe a dexterity check, as the grapple is happening, to see what's coming and take one final breath, but CON afterward to hold it. And since the person is being grappled, there would be negative modifiers to that CON check -- they're exerting themselves and there is likely additional pressure on the chest.
That seems like a lot of back and forth to me. Personally, I like more simplified mechanics. So the druid (in water elemental form) initiates a grapple, which provokes an AoO (barring the Improved grapple Feat). If the grapple succeeds, the target (on their turn) can make a grapple check to break free. They can forego a number of rounds equal to 1/4 their Constitution score (rounded down) to hold their breath and no Constitution check is required. Once that time surpasses, they make Constitution checks vs. DC 10 or start to drown.
Perhaps change the way drowning works a bit in this situation, such as 1st failed saving throw reduces your HP by 1/2, another failed save reduces you HP to 0 (almost unconscious), and a 3rd failed saving throw is death or -10 HP. That's 5 rounds a character can break free of the grapple. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2012 : 20:11:54
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Well, I'm weak on rules, myself, so I was just winging it.
But your approach seems, the way I'm reading it, to assume that the person being grappled is automatically going to have his breathing passages blocked by water. I'm thinking that should require an extra check to try to pull off, with the victim getting a chance to take a deep breath, first. I'm thinking that even with an elemental, merely grappling someone doesn't automatically cover their face with water. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12020 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2012 : 20:54:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Well, I'm weak on rules, myself, so I was just winging it.
But your approach seems, the way I'm reading it, to assume that the person being grappled is automatically going to have his breathing passages blocked by water. I'm thinking that should require an extra check to try to pull off, with the victim getting a chance to take a deep breath, first. I'm thinking that even with an elemental, merely grappling someone doesn't automatically cover their face with water.
I'm with Wooly here (not necessarily the mechanics he chose), but basically, you can be grappled without it blocking your nose/mouth. Granted, the rules allow someone to hold their breath for a long time, but next thing someone will be saying is that that's not in a combat situation. Then someone will point out if you punch someone in stomach, it will make them gasp for air, and thereby they automatically start drowning since they have no held breath. Then, like I said, every watery creature suddenly becomes deadly. I can see maybe making a feat for drowning someone that would require you to be in a liquid form or something, such that you could develop some interesting watery monks or something.... but I wouldn't just give it to a player anymore than I'd give them some riding skill just because they can envision it.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Galuf the Dwarf
Senior Scribe
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2012 : 21:25:10
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| Well, according the 3.5 Edition Monster Manual, water elementals don't technically have an ability to make people drown. The closest it can do to such is batter applicable targets around in its vortex form. |
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Galuf's 3.5 Ed. Cleric Domains: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14036
Galuf's Homebrew 4th Edition Races: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13787
Galuf's Homebrew Specialty Priest PrCs: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14353
Galuf's Forgotten Realms Heralds and Allies thread: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8766 |
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Kno
Senior Scribe
452 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2012 : 12:39:23
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| Those elementals that have fingers, yes, others can drench you at best |
z455t |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2012 : 16:49:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Kno
Those elementals that have fingers, yes, others can drench you at best
I don't think fingers are necessary. If a water elemental is crushing you to it's "chest,", it doesn't matter if fingers are involved or not -- you're going to have a facefull of water. |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1272 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2012 : 18:01:34
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If it's any help, this series of articles chews the fat on grapple rules quite thoroughly.
www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050301a
And I agree with Wooly, I don't think Grappled = Drowning, though the idea of making Con checks immediately does appeal. |
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Kno
Senior Scribe
452 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2012 : 10:35:37
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| what if you drink the elemental's water, does it lose hit points? |
z455t |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2012 : 22:44:30
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Remember to double the amount of rounds spent holding breath when performing strenous activity (like grappling). So most (N)PC's will only need twelve rounds suffocating their targets given the target possesses a Con score of 12.
Officially Galuf has it right, a waterelemental needs to contain its target in its vortex (waterwhirlpool) form to force drowning, and this can only happen when both parties are underwater anyways. The upside is the elemental needs no grapple checks to keep opponents in the water, and the dc for escaping a vortex is STR based, so strong water elemental do tend to be good at drowing their breathing opponents.
I'd imagine that normally a grapple with a water elemental won't involve the grapplee being placed completely inside the elemental, and the process of grappling has the water elemental constantly gushing watery appendages over the target to keep it from escaping. Perhaps during a pin intended to keep the target from speaking a DM could allow the drown and suffocation rules to be relevant.
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Druidic Groves
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2012 : 23:38:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Perhaps during a pin intended to keep the target from speaking a DM could allow the drown and suffocation rules to be relevant.
I would. A person doesn't have to be immersed to drown; you could be drowned with a Slurpee cup full of water if it was blocking both your mouth and your nose. |
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Shapechanged Water Elemental
