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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Jan 2004 : 05:55:07
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Ahh, I see. Thank you for the wise insights there Sage. Our countries are complete opposites..... Back to the topic at hand, I hope this answers your question Cyric. |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
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Naroon Shimmerflow
Learned Scribe
Norway
104 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2004 : 09:27:34
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A question regarding the demons and devils.
demons and devils, the more powerful ones, have the ability to teleport without error. Is this ability like the spell, can they carry with them living matter and objects? I almost got teleported away with a demon once, just wondered?
(as i`m working in Afghanistan for the Norwegian army at the moment i have a hard time consult my books  ) |
Good dice rolls, beats good tactics anytime[/size=1] |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2004 : 09:38:38
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Now I think we should resume our discussion on Demons and Devils, for I hear the distant echo of Alaundo's footsteps...and they sound angry...
Well met
Indeed  You nipped it in the bud just in the nick of time though, Sage |
Alaundo
Candlekeep Forums Head Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
An Introduction to Candlekeep - by Ed Greenwood
The Candlekeep Compendium - Tomes of Realmslore penned by Scribes of Candlekeep
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2004 : 14:03:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Naroon Shimmerflow
A question regarding the demons and devils.
demons and devils, the more powerful ones, have the ability to teleport without error. Is this ability like the spell, can they carry with them living matter and objects? I almost got teleported away with a demon once, just wondered?
Yes it is. Remember though, this is entirely dependent upon which edition of D&D you are playing in. You see, in 2e, in the PS adventure Squaring the Circle, all fiends lost the ability to teleport and use portal transportation.
The basics of it goes, the yugoloths want to bring the baatezu and tanar'ri into line, and thus begin a plan to eliminate the ability to teleport without error (which was a bigger deal in 2e, since they could cross planes with it) in all but the 'loths and whichever fiend swore fealty to them. What they had done, a long time ago, so long ago that nobody but the 'loths even know any details, was capture and twist a celestial, now known as the Maeldur Et Kavaurik (sp?). I think a baernoloth had a hand in it, and if I recall the adventure reveals one to the PCs...
Anyways, the Maeldur was twisted into a sort of pathfinder, or perhaps a teleport matrix. Through a special device, the 'loths would speak names of all the yugoloths, baatezu, and tanar'ri, and anyone who the Maeldur knew the name of would gain the ability to teleport without error. It wasn't exactly casting the spell, but making a sort of mental call for aid to which the Maeldur responded, sending the fiend on the trip. In fact, anyone could gain the teleport without error ability if the Maeldur knew their name.
So, the 'loths want to get rid of this power in other fiends. I don't know all the details, but what it boils down to is the PCs somehow learn about the Maeldur and the power it gives, and end up (in what they believe is an effort to cripple the fiends forever) dumping the Maeldur in the Styx. The most likely ending to the adventure seems to be the 'loths grab the Maeldur back, though, and begin telling it their own names and those of any fiends who swear fealty to them...
I'm not sure how possible or probable it is to get the Maeldur away from all the fiends forever, though I expect it's something like getting it to Celestia or some other Upper Plane, eliminating its memory of all these names, and hopefully someday turning it back into a celestial -- which seems unlikely for the poor thing, though who knows what may happen. One could always expect some near-fallen celestial to instead begin convincing others to teach the Maeldur celestial names instead of fiendish ones.
In 3e however, the fiends teleport without error ability has the same effects as the spell, but only if you want it to. Otherwise, just change the ruling on the spell when fiends are involved in your games...
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Naroon Shimmerflow
Learned Scribe
Norway
104 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2004 : 16:04:06
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WOW Sage!
Thank you for that supplementary answer
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Good dice rolls, beats good tactics anytime[/size=1] |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
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Naroon Shimmerflow
Learned Scribe
Norway
104 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2004 : 09:43:02
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| I will remember that |
Good dice rolls, beats good tactics anytime[/size=1] |
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Dracandos the Spellsage
Senior Scribe
466 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2004 : 00:49:21
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
It's summer here, brutally hot
oh gee sage i feel so bad 4 ya, ur over there sweatin, meanwhile us here on the east side of the US r freezin our arses off!
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Death strips away the masks men don to hide their true nature - The Slayer's Guide to Undead
The Lord of Murder shall perish, but in his doom he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny. Chaos shall be sown from their passage - So Sayeth the Wise Alaundo
Whenever magic one doth weave, 'tis never ever wise to deceive - Elminster
Strength and power come from knowing and controlling what others do not, but never reveal all that you know - Vecna
I have been known to cast a blue mage spell now and again - Dracandos the Spellsage |
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2004 : 00:54:39
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| You're from the East Coast too Dracandos? I currently reside in Connecticut. Where is your home? |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2004 : 05:49:14
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Oh dear.... It appears that some of the scribes here at Candlekeep have failed to properly read Alaundo's notice on "Idle Banter"...
Please my friends, try to keep these types of discussion for the ethereal mail system...
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2004 : 23:06:31
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| Hi, I'm a new member here and I have a question about demons. Of all the Prince of Demons (Demogorgon, Graz'zt, etc) which one is the most powerful of all? I know that the Demogorgon, Graz'zt and Orcus are all around the same though... |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Dracandos the Spellsage
Senior Scribe
466 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2004 : 07:10:44
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Hi, I'm a new member here and I have a question about demons. Of all the Prince of Demons (Demogorgon, Graz'zt, etc) which one is the most powerful of all? I know that the Demogorgon, Graz'zt and Orcus are all around the same though...
that is a debatful topic, i would prolly say Demogorgon. although i like Orcus the most, but that may be becuz i know more about him. also Orcus although is a demon lord, he is the lord of undead |
Death strips away the masks men don to hide their true nature - The Slayer's Guide to Undead
The Lord of Murder shall perish, but in his doom he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny. Chaos shall be sown from their passage - So Sayeth the Wise Alaundo
Whenever magic one doth weave, 'tis never ever wise to deceive - Elminster
Strength and power come from knowing and controlling what others do not, but never reveal all that you know - Vecna
I have been known to cast a blue mage spell now and again - Dracandos the Spellsage |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2004 : 07:28:56
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| It's impossible to say who's hands-down more powerful. Why? Because if that were so, then that demon, devil, or other would be supreme. As it is, they're too close in power to judge. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2004 : 15:12:26
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Hi, I'm a new member here and I have a question about demons. Of all the Prince of Demons (Demogorgon, Graz'zt, etc) which one is the most powerful of all? I know that the Demogorgon, Graz'zt and Orcus are all around the same though...
It is assumed by most planar scholars, and some greybeards, that Demogorgon is the strongest, most powerful Demon Lord.
Although, this is not entirely the case. By definition of it's very existence, the Abyss requires a form of order (not understood by most mortals, and those that do understand it, end up mad)...the Nine Hells moreso. In Baator, Asmodeus is the unquestioned, and unchallenged lord of all. However, in the Abyss such a logical hierarchy does not work, and often breaks down before such a system is implemented.
But as I said, the Abyss does subscribe to 'a' form of order. For example, it is generally agreed upon (and understood) by most demons that Graz'zt is an extraordinarily deceptive demon, and that challenging him (although weaker than some of his kin), will indeed lead to their defeat. Although he is not the strongest, or most powerful demon, he has the fear and respect of other demons based solely on his reputation as a master of deception and ever-shifting schemes and plots.
Getting back to the most powerful demon though...At one point in the history of the Abyss, there existed a Demon Lord called Xar'clahax...he was more a 'concept of fiendish evil' than a flesh-and-blood demon, but his power and might held all other demon lords under his sway for a period of over 1,000 years. It is not exactly known what became of this creature. Most attribute his 'fall' and disappearance to Asmodeus, again attesting to how great the Lord of the Ninth's power actually is. Others assume that the entity was nothing more than the collective consciousness of the demon lords of the Abyss, given semi-physical form, and that his disappearance was merely the result of the demon lords 'falling out' over some unresolved conflict.
The real truth (still disputed by some) however is that Xar'clahax never actually did disappear, or end up being destroyed by Asmodeus. Xar'clahax was/is a concept in essence, the concept of Chaotic Evil, and that moral/ethical position is, and always will exist...
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Cyric
Senior Scribe
Norway
388 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2004 : 16:32:05
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| Any info about Asmodeus ? |
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2004 : 16:55:17
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Cyric, I have plenty of info about the Lord of the Ninth Hell,...... but, its far too big to post. I could email it to you, would that be preferable?
Oh, and Sage.
quote:
Oh dear.... It appears that some of the scribes here at Candlekeep have failed to properly read Alaundo's notice on "Idle Banter"...
Please my friends, try to keep these types of discussion for the ethereal mail system...
I have read that, I'm merely inquiring where said scribe lived...... |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
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Cyric
Senior Scribe
Norway
388 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2004 : 17:51:01
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| yes if you could email it to me. |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2004 : 20:19:46
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| Thank you for the info, Sage. However, you said that the Demogorgon is the most powerful (and I also quite agree!). But isn't Orcus a demigod? Wouldn't he have more power than the Demogorgon? |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2004 : 20:41:46
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| I believe that Orcus had Lost his Demi-godhood or what ever (I'm not totally up to date). It is mentioned though that the now Undead Orcus is closer to true godhood than anyother, even though he is generally thought to be a smidgen weaker. I believe the Current Triad of the Abyss puts it like this: Demogorgon - Grazzt - Orcus although Grazzt and Orcus are hard to compare to one another. |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2004 : 20:53:27
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| No problem Cyric, you shall have new mail the instant I become available. |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2004 : 14:22:52
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Thank you for the info, Sage. However, you said that the Demogorgon is the most powerful (and I also quite agree!). But isn't Orcus a demigod? Wouldn't he have more power than the Demogorgon?
Remember, I said it was assumed that Demogorgon was the most powerful demon lord...it is not fact.
Anyway, Cardinal pretty much explained the situation with Orcus. Since his 'rebirth', Orcus's power has grown considerably. There is also some speculation that while Orcus was 'destroyed' his essence merged with a number of minor demon lords, with his will dominating the collective energies that were created when this merging took place. So, when Orcus returned from the 'dead' so to speak, his power and might were greater than before his 'death'. The other, more well known facts about his death are also responsible for his current state, but against Demogorgon I think he would still have some difficulty.
What I personally think however, is that Graz'zt is the forgotten factor in the power structure of the Abyss. It is a well known fact that Graz'zt has plans and schemes within plans and schemes...some of which were put into motion thousands of years ago. Who is to say what events Graz'zt has put into motion, and what type of situations are still to come. Graz'zt could have manipulated the forces of continuity so much, that the tapestry of the history of the Abyss is at his complete control. Every single event, every single choice each and every demon lord makes could have been pre-determined, and planned for by Graz'zt and his extraordinary ability to manipulate the tiniest situation to his own advantage...a very scary thought...
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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lowtech
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2004 : 16:34:05
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| I wonder how the Baernoloths(sp) compare to the demon lords and Asmodius...or Apomps the Three-sided-one, for that matter. My biggest dissapointment with the Book of Vile Darkness is that it only mentioned Chaotic and Lawful fiends in any detail. I could be charitable and say they wanted the Yugoloths to remain a mystery for role-playing purposes, but I frankly think that Wizards of the Coast was just being lazy and greedy. Most of the target audience would buy the book as it is, and if by some chance there was a popular demand for a book on the Yugoloths (and Geherelths(sp), Night Hags, etc.)they could always publish another $33 book later. |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2004 : 17:18:41
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| Sage, I agree with you. Even though Graz'zt isn't the most powerful one, I would say he has to be one of the smartest demons. After all, he did trick Waukeen and was able to trap the Goddess during the Times of Trouble. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Dracandos the Spellsage
Senior Scribe
466 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2004 : 02:45:29
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| speaking of which, has Waukeen been released? please excuse my ignorance in this topic. if she has been, when, how long after the Time of Troubles? |
Death strips away the masks men don to hide their true nature - The Slayer's Guide to Undead
The Lord of Murder shall perish, but in his doom he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny. Chaos shall be sown from their passage - So Sayeth the Wise Alaundo
Whenever magic one doth weave, 'tis never ever wise to deceive - Elminster
Strength and power come from knowing and controlling what others do not, but never reveal all that you know - Vecna
I have been known to cast a blue mage spell now and again - Dracandos the Spellsage |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2004 : 04:14:29
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| Dracandos, Waukeen has been rescued by adventurers. It was in the AD&D/Fr adventure For Duty or Deity and she has become a goddess once again. I'm not sure but I think it was in 1370, which is 12 years after the Times of Trouble. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Dracandos the Spellsage
Senior Scribe
466 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2004 : 22:36:10
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| were these adventures any1 special or just some adventurers? also, can any1 confirm the year? |
Death strips away the masks men don to hide their true nature - The Slayer's Guide to Undead
The Lord of Murder shall perish, but in his doom he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny. Chaos shall be sown from their passage - So Sayeth the Wise Alaundo
Whenever magic one doth weave, 'tis never ever wise to deceive - Elminster
Strength and power come from knowing and controlling what others do not, but never reveal all that you know - Vecna
I have been known to cast a blue mage spell now and again - Dracandos the Spellsage |
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Cyric
Senior Scribe
Norway
388 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2004 : 19:44:29
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| is For Duty or Deity a book ? and when am i getting that info Shadowlord ? |
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Dracandos the Spellsage
Senior Scribe
466 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2004 : 20:30:26
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| 4 duty and diety is an adventure not a novel, but yes it is a book |
Death strips away the masks men don to hide their true nature - The Slayer's Guide to Undead
The Lord of Murder shall perish, but in his doom he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny. Chaos shall be sown from their passage - So Sayeth the Wise Alaundo
Whenever magic one doth weave, 'tis never ever wise to deceive - Elminster
Strength and power come from knowing and controlling what others do not, but never reveal all that you know - Vecna
I have been known to cast a blue mage spell now and again - Dracandos the Spellsage |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2004 : 04:21:49
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First, I think For Duty & Deity puts it nicely when is says what happens if you party fails the adventure.
quote:
Originally from For Duty & Deity by TSR:
If the PCs failed in their attempt to rescue her (see below), another group of heroes assembled by the Holycoin successfully frees Waukeen from captivity. The goddess reveals her return to her church (and the rest of Faerūn) on the 24th of Nightal, 1370 DR. This day becomes an official festival for the worshipers of Waukeen.
So, essentially, regardless of success or failure in the adventure Waukeen returns in DR 1370 and becomes a goddess again. Now, onto the demons and devils, those collectively call the 'the fiends'. First, for anyone who wants some neat info on the fiends, the Nine Hells and the Abyss, and the Blood War, you should check out Hellbound: The Blood War a Planescape product that describes it quite interestingly, particularly how you should never call a baatezu a demon or a tanar'ri a devil, if you want to live very long. As far as my Forgotten Realms campaigns go I have never had much spillover of the Blood War into the Toril. In general I think the Blood War does not spill over much into the Prime Material worlds, simply because the Outer Planes are so vast as to adequately contain most of the direct conflict. Not to mention fiends are rather uncommon on most Primes, namely Toril, and even where they are abundant the baatezu and tanar'ri do not mix much on Toril, as they are so rare.
In my campaigns most of the interaction with fiends occurs outside of Toril. Occasionally we make a trip to Myth Drannor, where many yugoloths and tanar'ri reside or come across an occasional rogue summoned fiend, but mostly the interaction with demons is confined to the Planes. The exception to that is Edain Shadowstar, who early in life earned the enmity of Asmodeus, the Lord of the Ninth Layer of Baator. For several millennia Asmodeus had Edain hunted across the planes, even capturing him a few times. Eventually, when the attacks while on Toril escalated to truly immense proportions certain members of the Seldarine intervened to dissuade Asmodeus from continuing his hunt. The Archdevil would still like to flay Edain alive, but Shadowstar has grown to powerful to attack outside of Baator.
Edain, and other PCs on mine, have had direct experience in the Blood War, fighting in its battles, in all the Lower Planes. Shadowstar is a minor legend amongst certain parts of the Lower Planes for his rampant destruction of fiendish forces after the Fall of Myth Drannor (apparently he carried his grudge with him on that trip to the Planes). Other PCs have fought in the Lower Planes and encountered the intrigues of fiends throughout the Planes as well, but Edain Shadowstar definitely has the most experience, having spent four decades incarcerated in Baator, and three in the Abyss, and at least five decades masquerading as a high level yugoloth to learn about their society. In addition to the Archdevil, Demogorgon and the Yugoloths in general have a price on Edain's head, in addition to several of his associates, but have failed to successfully remove him as of yet.
Of the rare major interactions with fiendish forces on Toril was a campaign involving a large cult of Asmodeus, which the PCs came into major conflict with. The cult was engaging in an ritual to summon a high-ranking scion of Asmodeus to the Realms to bring destruction and such to the Realms, however they failed, but managed to turn two of our PCs into baatezu and forced the other to banish them to Baator. Fun stuff, no? I can probably come back with more examples if I go rooting through my campaign notes, but that takes a lot of time, which I do not have right now. I'll see what I can come up with.
You all know nothing of pain. Four decades of endless torture at the hands of the Multiverse's masters of pain. It was not the physical pain that left me so scarred though, it was their invasions into your psyche that scares you most. Never to confident in the safety of your own mind during you time their, can you know such a horror? Though you may enter the Nine Hells pure and righteous, the evil and pain of that place will stain and scare the most nobles of us. May the Gods have mercy on all who pass through the Gates of Baator, for those that go in never truly leave. I know I left behind a piece of my soul there. |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm
pie
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- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2004 : 05:00:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Cyric
is For Duty or Deity a book ? and when am i getting that info Shadowlord ?
Cyric, I am trying, but I have a report due. Ask Ezindir, it may take a while, but I always get the email in. |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
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Demons, Devils, and the Realms
