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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Jun 2012 : 19:42:02
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There has been a lot of interesting speculation on the nature of Shades scattered throughout a few different scrolls recently. Since no one else has, I thought I would begin a scroll in which all of this fascinating debate can be concentrated.
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Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2012 : 20:42:52
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My Shade character still consumed food normally; but Dalor Darden never truly relished meals any longer. They taste bland and are never satisfying except to quench thirst or rid him of hunger.
Shades, long ago, were much more rare...and perhaps more rare than Liches in the game.
The coming of Shade Enclave was something I dreaded at first in the Forgotten Realms because it robbed me of something I thought was unique about my character. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1272 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2012 : 21:31:23
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My DM never really gave it that much thought. We just assumed that a Shade still had to eat and drink like normal, owing to the fact that in daylight none of their abilities are active.
I guess their Fast Healing ability might slow the hunger pains somewhat, if you wanted to treat it that way?
Mind, I'm only familiar with 3.5 rules. If 4E changed anything, I'm unaware of it. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3745 Posts |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2012 : 22:46:44
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| Neo-Netherese? Roasted owlbear, anybody? Hah. I wasn't actually wondering whether Shades ate and drank, though it is an interesting question. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2012 : 01:19:51
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They eat cooked food, still. There was a scene in The Twilight War where Telamont and Brennus dined, right before their dreaded confrontation. I'll try to look for it later... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2012 : 06:45:42
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Shades have to eat because they aren't undead... they're half-dead.
Not exactly sure how that works, but there living half still needs to do all the normal 'life' stuff.
When I think of the Shades and Netheril, I think of the Necromungers in Chronicles of Riddick - they were half-dead as well (and the 'Most High' also reminds me of the 'Lord Marshal').
The Shades need those Psi-hounds (people) from that movie - that was a pretty awesome concept. They kinda used shadows that way (at least Melvaunt did).
EDIT: Montrous compendium Annual, 1997 has their write-up. They eat, but also derive some sustenance from shadow itself.
presumeably, they are also sterile (the process of becoming a Shades negates the ability to procreate).
The rest is interesting as well - I recommend you read it. Although the heading says its a Greyhawk creature, I suspect this was a typo - the Eshadow of Chult are specifically mentioned (at that time being the largest group of Shades in faerun).
FR lore crops-up in the strangest places.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Jun 2012 07:49:37 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2012 : 07:41:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Shades have to eat because they aren't undead... they're half-dead.
Not exactly. Brennus once commented that he didn't need to eat, but old habits die hard. Or something along that line. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2012 : 07:49:09
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I editted my above post - please read it (and the source I pointed to).
Troy Denning needs to do his homework - obviously Shaodvar aren't normal Shades.
EDIT: after re-reading that, it does go on to say you can't starve a Shade to death, which infers they do not need to eat, they just do (it says they eat the same kinds of things they ate before becoming a Shade).
There are also some great tables in there that tell you how each level of light (or darkness) effects them and their abilities. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Jun 2012 07:54:27 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2012 : 13:23:15
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What exactly is a "normal" shade then?
Shadovar are just shades, created using the standard shade template provided in the various Monster Manuals. Any special rules which might apply to them are really based on individuals who can access special feats, prestige classes, spells, or social/cultural station - yes, these are somewhat unique, but then so could be any other shade from any other origin. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2012 : 14:44:01
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| So, the shade is suspended somewhere between life and death? They trade pieces of their souls and flesh for sustainig shadow. What if they were to starve? Would the darkness inside them consume them and they would then rise as full undead shadows? Over time, decades even centuries, do they lose a little more of themselves in a war of attrition with the shadow? Are Telamont and possibly Hadrhune already undead? Although a more intelligent version of your typical shadow, maintaining their own sentience somehow? |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2012 : 16:16:50
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Well, Telemont has kids - lots of them. Unless he had them all before becoming a Shade, then Telemont can't be a typical Shade.
Now, in another thread we have theorized Telemont has evolved into something greater (along the lines of how a lich turns into a demi-lich), but I certainly doubt that that 'greater' form would take a step backwards and allow him to reproduce again.
And then, there is magic. If magic can create things like Perytons (and giant/kobold crossbreeds), then I guess it can make undead (or the semi-dead) fertile.
Hmmmmm... interesting thought just struck me - what if the females are infertile, and the males impotent? Then using powerful magic a male Shade 'might' be able to reproduce using a normal (non-Shade) female. Are there any she-Shadovar? Maybe there is a good reason why they don't let too many women become Shades (eventually they would just die-out). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Jun 2012 17:23:05 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2012 : 16:28:17
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This deal of Shades not being able to reproduce, I never paid much attention to that. I might be willing to say that a Shade can't reproduce with a Shade...but a Shade would still be able to reproduce with a non-shade that they could produce offspring with prior to becoming a shade.
Dalor Nal'Raesik Darden went so far as to reproduce with Glasya in the game I played in...and used magic to ensure that he would have a son result from that union (Wish). I don't see why a powerful wizard Shade couldn't do the same to ensure they could reproduce. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2012 : 17:35:17
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Outsiders are a special case - I think they should be able to breed with anything.
In my own (mostly homebrew) 'theories of everything', all outsiders are energy - they live in a non-physical environment (the Outer Planes) and everything there is controlled by thought. Primes don't get this - the outer Planes are mutable (unstable), and so are its creatures. Ergo, if a creature with enough power decides it wants to reproduce, it does, regardless of what the normal; 'rules' might be. Orcus is considered undead, and yet is a demon prince, and can still have offspring. The rules of the universe warp around perception, and the more powerful the creature, the greater that warping becomes.
The Outer Planes themselves are all sentient - it is that sentience that determines the usual (normal) conditions of that plane. Although each 'layer' within a plane can be ruled by something, there is always something higher-up the ladder that rules the entire plane (whether the denizens of that plane know it or not, oor care to admit it). The same applies to demi-planes (and even pocket-planes - their rules are defined by the creating mortal).
So every plane in existence is really just taking place inside the mind of some cosmic being, or conversely, the cosmic being is the consciousness of the plane (either way, it works out the same). Some are more active then others (like the 'Dark Powers' of Ravenloft) - usually the smaller (younger) the plane, the more active its awareness is. When planes grow truly immense (like the Outer Planes), the awareness has slipped into a near coma-like state (much like the scaley powers do, as do the dragons). Only something of unimaginable magnitude can 'wake' them from their reverie.
What makes the Prime so special? Its dead, of course.
EDIT: Going back to the topic, and how this relates...
Telemont has ascended to a new level - he has completely embraced (become) his shadow, which means he is no longer bound by the normal laws of the universe. In essence, he has become an outsider, and his 'will' is more important to his own being.
So basically, he is fully dead now... but in D&D, that doesn't really mean the same thing as it does RW. It just means he has transcended this 'mortal coil'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Jun 2012 17:39:37 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2012 : 18:52:12
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Shade reproduction has already been discussed and affirmed; Erevis Cale sired child to his wife, the Shadovar people must avoid extinction by either being able to reproduce as shades or by maintaining a segment of non-shade population.
It should be noted that securing fertile land, crops, and water were high priorities for the Shadovar when their city arrived, in fact they had deployed agents beforehand to help establish these foundations. Shade's interest in access to Sembia's trading ports must be more than just interest in magic, allies, information, and resources - Shade can access such things within a more immediate proximity with less overall effort. So I think a large part of Shade's interest in foreign trade is in obtaining things like exotic foods, spices, liquors, entertainment, and other such mundane stuff - the same things most humans need to survive. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2012 : 20:25:25
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| According to the "Telamont" entry in the FR Wiki, he is in fact, an outsider. Does that make Shadovar/Shades some sort of shadow genasi? It is said that shadedom is capable of prolonging ones life, but does not grant immortality. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2012 : 21:58:36
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| Since my knowledge of Shade is so perfunctory, I have decided to read the Archwizards trilogy despite having heard many bad reviews in these halls. That surprise me as Mr. Dennings work seems to have been appreciated before. Why the discrepency? |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2012 : 01:21:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Telemont has ascended to a new level - he has completely embraced (become) his shadow, which means he is no longer bound by the normal laws of the universe. In essence, he has become an outsider, and his 'will' is more important to his own being.
So basically, he is fully dead now... but in D&D, that doesn't really mean the same thing as it does RW. It just means he has transcended this 'mortal coil'.
Telamont is an outsider. That is canon. It was also mentioned that the magic that sustains his form is beginning to fail, and that he's considering other means of prolonging his existence, one of which is lichdom. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2012 : 01:25:14
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| Shade-Lich equals bad mojo... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2012 : 01:34:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
Since my knowledge of Shade is so perfunctory, I have decided to read the Archwizards trilogy despite having heard many bad reviews in these halls. That surprise me as Mr. Dennings work seems to have been appreciated before. Why the discrepency?
Don't believe everything you read.
The common problems of those who dislike the series are the Chosen's seemingly bad portrayal; great importance placed on Troy's own characters, almost making other characters he 'borrowed' appear insignificant; and how the Shadovar are introduced---they're too powerful for some readers' taste.
I, on the other hand, liked it. Great story; amazing characters (well, most, not all---Galaeron, the elven hero, annoyed me at times); filled with lore on shadow magic that's never been discussed in prior novels, not even in The Shadow Stone; with enough dose of gore-splashed battles. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2012 : 02:03:41
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| Telamont is an extraordinary individual, as are Rivalen and perhaps all of his siblings (and, indeed, their enemy Erevis Cale). These individuals needn't be confined to the parameters which define the vast majority of shades and Shadovar, they are anomalous extremes instead of normative representatives. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3745 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2012 : 04:36:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
Since my knowledge of Shade is so perfunctory, I have decided to read the Archwizards trilogy despite having heard many bad reviews in these halls. That surprise me as Mr. Dennings work seems to have been appreciated before. Why the discrepency?
-Two things, primarily:
(1) The trilogy was written before, during, and after the 2e to 3e transition. The Summoning and The Siege came out in early and late 2001, and The Sorcerer came out in late 2002. The FRCS came out in mid 2001. In terms of what was portrayed in Dennings' books, some things different from what eventually made it into the FRCS (and later books), most infamously what happens when "Weave Magic" and Shadow Weave Magic clash.
(2) The way that Troy Denning uses various established characters is very jarring, as compared to what we've come to expect of them.
Mod edit: fixed the errant italics coding. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 11 Jun 2012 05:04:27 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36844 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2012 : 05:09:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
Since my knowledge of Shade is so perfunctory, I have decided to read the Archwizards trilogy despite having heard many bad reviews in these halls. That surprise me as Mr. Dennings work seems to have been appreciated before. Why the discrepency?
(2) The way that Troy Denning uses various established characters is very jarring, as compared to what we've come to expect of them.
It's my experience that Denning is a hit-or-miss author. I've quite enjoyed some of his stuff, and other stuff I've hated. And the Return of the Archwizards trilogy seems to follow this: some people absolutely love it, others loathe it. As with Denning's other Realms material, there's rarely a middle ground.
I agree with Lord Karsus on this one. It was very jarring, the way Denning used established characters not of his own creation. Basically, his characters were the only ones doing the right thing -- all established, non-Denning characters acted in ways that did not stick to prior lore. Basically, if a non-Denning character had the chance to do the right thing, they'd for some reason do the one thing that would make things worse, leaving his white hats to save the day.
And this trilogy started the trend that has continued to this day: portraying the Shades as nearly unstoppable. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 11 Jun 2012 05:10:57 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2012 : 05:29:06
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Mechanically speaking, and this is from experience, I think there is no difference in power between a Shade wizard and a "normal" wizard. Not all Shades were originally spellcasters...this trend kinda bothered me greatly.
Most Shades I had encountered in my years of playing had actually been a group of un-named assassins the DM used...and none of them had spells.
Shadow Magic is cool...and if you "build your character" toward it, you can get a powerful character.
But I can also "build" an Illusionist who can cast spells that are pretty much something that can't be stopped! Don't need the Shadow Weave to do it either. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2012 : 11:36:13
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Drasek Riven is not a spellcaster, aside from storing healing spell charges in carried items. The "shadowwalker" monk-assassin pseudo-shades at Wayrock were also not spellcasters. Even a few of the Princes Shade are primarily warriors, so I expect that a great many Shadovar shades are not spellcasters.
Honestly, I expect the idea of *every* Shadovar casting spells to be an artifact of the excessive-multiclassing of 3E, not a property inherent to shades themselves. The AD&D 1E description of shades works equally well with fighters, mages, and thieves. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 11 Jun 2012 11:38:12 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2012 : 18:07:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
Since my knowledge of Shade is so perfunctory, I have decided to read the Archwizards trilogy despite having heard many bad reviews in these halls. That surprise me as Mr. Dennings work seems to have been appreciated before. Why the discrepency?
(2) The way that Troy Denning uses various established characters is very jarring, as compared to what we've come to expect of them.
It's my experience that Denning is a hit-or-miss author. I've quite enjoyed some of his stuff, and other stuff I've hated. And the Return of the Archwizards trilogy seems to follow this: some people absolutely love it, others loathe it. As with Denning's other Realms material, there's rarely a middle ground.
And yet, I find myself liking the series - and the Shades - more then I ever did hearing about them 2nd and 3rd hand (from the FRCG and other FR fans). Although the series has its problems (which one doesn't?), I think his handling of the shadow-magic was/is admirable; his usage was far better then what it turned into in the rest of 3e (in other words, I feel it made sense within the framework EG built, which the rest of the 3e lore around the Shadow Weave DIDN'T).
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I agree with Lord Karsus on this one. It was very jarring, the way Denning used established characters not of his own creation. Basically, his characters were the only ones doing the right thing -- all established, non-Denning characters acted in ways that did not stick to prior lore. Basically, if a non-Denning character had the chance to do the right thing, they'd for some reason do the one thing that would make things worse, leaving his white hats to save the day.
I hadn't really thought about this before now, but you are (both) quite right - I did feel the other (non-Denning) characters were all a bit 'off'. They made some VERY stupid mistakes (Khelben being stupid?), and been judgmental (Elminster being judgmental? He's been nice to people who've tried to murder him... dozens of times!)
And Storm flying around like Wonder Woman and casting spells like DR. Strange.... weird. There is also a continuity glitch (at least one I notice right away) - there is a scene in EiH where both Khelben and Laeral are together (in their tower), and can sense Elminster's trouble, but can do nothing about it. With the events of RotAW, that scene is impossible.
However, I still found the Realmslore in it very good. Dennings very formulaic approach to writing is getting a bit tiresome, but at least (I feel) he did his homework on this one.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And this trilogy started the trend that has continued to this day: portraying the Shades as nearly unstoppable.
Not entirely.
What they are - or rather, Telemont - are brilliant strategists. Their magic was/is 'different', which is why so many folks had trouble with it. Several of them did die, or were badly wounded, in fire-fights. Given enough time they can accomplish anything, but they didn't fare too well whenever they were caught with their pants down.
Had they not taken Toril by surprise - and put a very broad plan into motion to keep everyone busy (and out of their hair) - I think they would have met a powerful wall of resistance immediately and would not have been able to establish themselves as they have done.
Melvaunt took a century to study the Phaerimm. It was implied that several other princes had been 'watching' Faerun for at least as long. The Shadovar knew who ALL the major players were (like the Chosen), and were prepared for them. Their opposition - good and bad guys alike - were clueless. I think Telemont read Sun Tsu (and made his kids read it) - "Know thy enemy".
The Shades have all the gumption and adaptability of being human, and have life-spans that out-strip the Elves. That means they can see the 'big picture', and take their time and plan, but unlike Elves they can adapt and change on the fly, and move quickly when necessary If anything, that makes them 'draconic' in nature. They are brilliant, powerful, magically adapt, and given a thousand years or so to gain unimaginable wisdom, patient.
But unlike dragons, they (usually) stick together. It seems they take the best traits from everyone and apply them going forward. That doesn't make them unstoppable - that just makes them hard to take down. They are what the Zhents (or Thay) should have been, had they not spent most of their time battling each other. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Jun 2012 18:14:05 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2012 : 00:04:39
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Shadows are thicker than blood, eh?
I wonder if Telamont has some sort of fundamental power over his Princes Shade, some (thus far) unbreakable magic or something akin to controlling their shadowy phylacteries. Given their generally evil (or at least inhumanly ruthless) nature, I have to wonder why the twelve Princes are so pliant to Telamont's will. Certainly Telamont has managed to subjugate them all and play each against the other at different times ... but I think his edge is not such a great advantage compared to their dozens of millennia of collective experience. Does their fear of Telamont exceed their ambitions? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 12 Jun 2012 00:09:35 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2012 : 00:09:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Shadows are thicker than blood, eh? I wonder if Telamont has some sort of fundamental power over his Princes Shade, some (thus far) unbreakable magic or something akin to controlling their shadowy phylacteries. Given their generally evil (or at least inhumanly ruthless) nature, I have to wonder why the twelve Princes are so pliant to Telamont's will. Does their fear or Telamont exceed their ambitions?
I would go so far as to say they are loyal. They do want to rule, but they are loyal...and knowing they have so long to live, they are patient as well. Even within the criminal family I came from, everyone was very loyal...my father even went to prison because he wouldn't allow my mother to take the fall for something he had done and came forward and took the full punishment.
Just because someone is evil, I don't think it automatically means they have to be treacherous to EVERYONE...just their enemies perhaps.
Also, I wasn't aware Shades had to have any sort of phylactery? I thought the transformation was just that...and not a procedure which requires a phylactery. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 12 Jun 2012 00:16:23 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2012 : 00:21:34
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| I knew somebody would ask about the phylactery thing. My understanding is that shades are humans who undergo some ritual of transformation which infuses their soul with shadowstuff; they enjoy a link to the Shadowfell similar to an outsider or undead drawing power from another plane. To my knowledge no physical receptacle is involved, but it's possible that Telamont designed or supervised a special process for his sons, and it's possible that he's somehow installed a method of controlling them by manipulating this shadowy link. Most shades lose their human instincts for frivolous compassion, they are tainted, hardened, ruthless, detached, even disdainful of unshadowy things - the Princes Shade more than others, Telamont most of all. I suspect Telamont's soul penetrated deeper into the shadows, past the boundary of most shades, and whatever came back is no longer human by any measure. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2012 : 00:34:04
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Grumble...grumble...I miss the days of the simple ol' Plane of Shadow.
It IS complicated now. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2012 : 05:09:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Had they not taken Toril by surprise - and put a very broad plan into motion to keep everyone busy (and out of their hair) - I think they would have met a powerful wall of resistance immediately and would not have been able to establish themselves as they have done.
Indeed. I believe I stressed this point before... Their success is borne out of patience and brilliant strategies, which always involve manipulation. The Most High avoids direct confrontation as much as possible. In RotA, did we see Shade attack Evareska and Waterdeep? They tried diplomacy first. Only when diplomacy failed did they resort to violence. In Shadowstorm, Telamont commanded Rivalen to stop the Shadowstorm before it could catch the attention of Toril's powerful.
As for their taking of Sembia, in the Twilight War, it was mentioned that Shade had been planning to seize it and had planted agents in several cities years before their return to Toril. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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On the Care and Feeding of Shades
