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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Jun 2012 : 07:28:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Stormlord77
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
You might find reading the "Kingpriest Trilogy" by Chris Pierson to be of some benefit here.
lord knows i am trying. I am familiar with it, been looking for it. But they are going for stupid amounts of money (USED) on amazon right now. one day i will get my hands on this trilogy and read it (ironically reading chris pierson's taladas trilogy right now heh)
You can usually find reasonably priced second-hand copies at nobleknight.com, if you're interested in looking elsewhere. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2012 : 07:46:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Dennis
The most glaring uncool aspect of priests, among many others, is their extreme dependence on their patron deities. Take out their priestly magic, and they become almost nothing---unless they have part-time jobs as rogues/thieves.
Wizards and fighters are independent. Whether gods die or disappear for whatever reason, these characters shall endure.
Well, Realms canon has demonstrated that's not entirely true. Wizards (and sorcerers) depend on magic governed by Mystryl or Mystra - if the goddess decides there are level caps or damage caps on the spells, or that a particular spell won't function (as intended) then so mote it be.
Mystryl/Mystra died so many times, leaving the Weave in tatters. But wizards endure. Some even managed to tap into alternative sources of magic when the Spellplague hit Toril. Compare them to Lolth's priestesses during her Silence. They were practically helpless. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8066 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2012 : 13:13:04
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| Some wizards endure, primarily old liches and half-immortal Chosen. Netheril actually suggests rules for arcanists and wizards to relearn their craft when time travelling through classic-1E, retro-1E, and 2E magic rules (the largest difference between 1E and 2E is the reorganization of the magic rules). But the vast majority of wizards experience magical mishaps or losses which rob them of their craft, at least until a new deity of magic assumes the office ... again, no goddess of magic equals no magic (at least not the sort most sane people attempt to wield); magic is too random and dangerous to be useful without a deity to govern it. Magic of any kind, incidentally - arcane or priestly - as priests during the Time of Troubles who dared to cast spells followed the same dangerous rules as wizards. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 10 Jun 2012 13:26:38 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36996 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2012 : 14:23:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Stormlord77
and yet Clerics DO switch dieties
Fzoul for example went Bane, Xvim, Bane
Fzoul switched deities, true -- but the deities he was switching amongst all covered the same portfolio. So really, all he did was switch the name on the letterhead.
For priests, the deity they follow is tied quite closely to their own personal outlook on life. For a priest to change to a deity covering a different portfolio, he's going to have to change his own beliefs -- possibly quite radically.
Other than Fzoul and priests like him whose deity was replaced by another, I can only think of two priests in Realms canon that changed deities. And for both of them, there was a very good reason for this change -- Adon felt that his deity had turned away from him, and Walinda was tweaked that Bane wouldn't accept resurrection at the hands of a woman, instead of a man. |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2012 : 18:32:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
The thing about priests are their versatility. You want a magelike priest, well then pick a priest of Magic sphere Diety. You want a throw down kick ass priest, pick a priest of Tempus.
The most glaring uncool aspect of priests, among many others, is their extreme dependence on their patron deities. Take out their priestly magic, and they become almost nothing---unless they have part-time jobs as rogues/thieves.
Wizards and fighters are independent. Whether gods die or disappear for whatever reason, these characters shall endure.
Take away a wizards spellbooks, magic items and components away and what do you have? Take away a fighters weapons and armor and what do you have?
A wizard can get more spellbooks and such. A fighter can pick up more weapons and armor. A priest can't just pick up another deity. Even in the Realms, there's no such thing as a Deities 'R' Us store.
True but the chances of a priest's diety passing on is a lot less than a fighter getting disarmed or a mage getting de magicked. |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2012 : 18:40:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Priests are sexy, too. Mages are simply sexier. Wooly has the right of it. It's pretty easy to replace a spellbook than replacing a patron deity.
Not on the fly or in a jam which is likely the cause of the mage being with his spell books or components. Same with a fighter that is not a Monk.
As far as sexy, it's a matter of opinion, not fact., Erevis Cale and Riven Drasek were as "sexy" as you can get and both were priests of Mask.
IMO a "sexy" diety will give you "sexy" Priests.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8066 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2012 : 18:58:29
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| I'd always envisioned priests of Waukeen as basically being a cross between used-car salesmen, telemarketers, and obsessively accurate accountants. Sadly, this has led to my Waukeeners being roleplayed as either Joe Isuzu or Grand Nagus Shawn Wallace. Either way: not sexy. |
[/Ayrik] |
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jerrod
Learned Scribe
157 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2012 : 19:00:35
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| I really wouldn't agree that the priestesses of lolth were helpless during the silence. They just weren't as potent as they normally are. Their weaponry,and item use still elevated them above most common drow. |
I haven't been here in years but I used to be DARKFLAME MILLITHOR(DROW ARCHMAGE of wildmagic |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2012 : 01:43:20
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Their magic items are many...But it's only a matter of time and they'll be running out of it. That's precisely what the drow wizards were waiting, if only they were certain that Lolth would never return. Once the priestesses run out of magic items, well, the wizards could pretty much do what they want. If Lolth didn't break her Silence, the drow priestesses would have been a bunch of useless bitches. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2012 : 15:11:26
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| Also its not like the wizards did'nt have their own hoards of magical artifacts. In fact i beleive that they were too timid, Lolth's silence was a golden opportunity for them to throw off the shackles of the matron mothers. Ched Nazad did it, others could have as well and even when Lolth returned what could she have done with all her priestesses dead. |
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2012 : 21:18:14
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Liriel Baenre isn't 20+, but I think she's pretty sexy. Most every book with drow has powerful priestesses.
Gareth Dragonsbane was a paladin, but Friar Dugald was a priest. |
"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"
-Procopio Septus |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2012 : 06:59:16
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The Vilhon Reach supplement describes a level 30 druid.
Perhaps mages are just more interseting and we just do not hear about the more powerful clerics/druids/invokers/divine people. I just assume there are as many but they do not get mentioned in source material. (You could also just make one up!) |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2012 : 17:57:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
...at least until a new deity of magic assumes the office ... again, no goddess of magic equals no magic (at least not the sort most sane people attempt to wield); magic is too random and dangerous to be useful without a deity to govern it.
Prior to the Spellplague, I'd have agreed without comment.
However magic seems to be doing well after 100 years with no deity of magic in the Realms.
I'd like to know why that is (in a novel that talks about the history of magic like the novel Cormyr talks about Cormyr's history), but that's not the topic of the thread.  |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Snow
Learned Scribe
USA
125 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2012 : 18:35:27
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Keep in mind, by the time D&D 3.5 was in its final moments of glory (and 4E on the horizon), WotC game developers had developed a tremendous amount of game cleric-friendly class features and game mechanics that made a well-optimized cleric capable of projecting as much firepower and meta-versatility as that of a similarly structured wizard. My overall unfamiliarity with 4E prevents me from making a similar comparative analysis.
My above statements hold true especially regarding unique F.R. game mechanics. They really gave a huge power-up for clerics. So the sexiness factor and power-projection capability for F.R. clerics is clearly on par with comparable optimized wizards during the 7-8 reign of 3.0/3.5.
Also to note about 3.0/3.5 ... is that there were a number of alternate cleric classes that came about that were still "primary spellcasters" (i.e. capable of casting 9th level spells prior to Epic levels). So during those years of F.R. reference, you kinda have to lump in those divine spellcaster classes in with clerics & druids. i.e. Archivist, Spirit Shamans, Cloistered Cleric, Divine Mind (divine psionicist), Favored Soul (MH), Healer (MH), Divine Crusader PrC (Comp. Divine), UA variants, etc.
I hope some of this helps dispel the notion that the stodgy old cleric class just doesn't have the same pizzazz and oomph as the wizard. I'm still surprised as to how many grognard-types I still meet who feel the cleric never evolved into such a powerhouse over the years.
I really wish that the Realms had a fictional character who embodied a vibrant and energetic "cleric worldchanger" persona. Only wizards tend to get this primary spellcaster archetype assigned to them.
- Tina |
Edited by - Snow on 14 Jun 2012 18:38:49 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2012 : 07:25:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Snow
I really wish that the Realms had a fictional character who embodied a vibrant and energetic "cleric worldchanger" persona. Only wizards tend to get this primary spellcaster archetype assigned to them.
- Tina
That would have been Iyraclea, if she were alive.
Cale can also be considered that, given the kind and level of the archmages he's fought and the world-encompassing plots he helped stop over his long (or short, depending on how you view fictional 'age') life. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Stormlord77
Acolyte
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2012 : 01:04:20
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ok been a few weeks...figured it was time for an update
read the shadow war trilogy (and wow, that was good). I really liked Cale and Rivelin in these novels, but Abelard really stole the show for me (although i am unsure if he was supposed to be a priest or a paladin, i THINK he was a paladin).
wish i could learn more about Variance, she definitely didnt get enough novel time.
Would agree that Cale was fairly "sexy" as far as a cleric character goes....
Reading the Last Mythal Trilogy now (turns out i read book 1 and didnt finish, which i why i barely remembered Seiveril). Although I havent seen much from him other than a really impressive Resurrection to date (about 170 pages into book 2 right now) Although Fflar is pretty impressive.
Next on the list is the Dragon Rage Trilogy, now that i FINALLY found the 3rd book in a used book store.
After that, its probably gonna be the Thay Trilogy...got book 1, book 2 is on its way ...still looking for Unholy though :/
ok question.
Iyraclea, did she ever get novel time? or was she just slightly detailed in the great north book (or whichever it was)?
Still think a novel, or a series of novels about a high level druid and his company of rangers who dedicate themselves to protecting a range of woods from all encroachment could be very cool. Or a high level cleric of Shaundakul who travels the world, fights some monsters and battles those who try and control roads and trade (zhentil keep)
i dunno, arch-magi are cool, but high level clerical types are cool too and need some more love |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2012 : 05:08:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Stormlord77
ok question.
Iyraclea, did she ever get novel time? or was she just slightly detailed in the great north book (or whichever it was)?
Yes. In The Ruin, Book III of The Year of Rogue Dragons Trilogy by Richard Lee Byers. She had an epic battle with the dracolich Zethrindor. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Stormlord77
Acolyte
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2012 : 05:25:35
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| sweet, since i just finished book 2 of the last mythal...after i finish The Final Gate, i'll be starting the rogue dragons drilogy |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2526 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2012 : 13:25:26
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- Thauna Maskalar (2ed:P21,3ed:cleric 11/heartwarder 10) of Sune - The House of Firehair, Daerlun.
- Raulauvin Oregh (2ed:P20) of Chauntea - High Harvest Home, Elturel.
- Bloenin (2ed:P24,3ed:?) of Gond - lantar, Lantan.
the next tier (18-19):
- Tolgar Anuvien (2ed:P18,3ed:Clr16/Dis3) of Chauntea - Goldenfields.
- Shanathera Moonsoul (2ed:P18) of Selûne - Silverymoon.
- Lauren DeVillars (2ed:P18) of Waukeen - Ravens Bluff.
If you want movers and shakers... dunno about 20+, but - Tolgar Anuvien is the founder and leader of Goldenfields.
- Lady Lauren DeVillars pretty much took a bunch of little baronies clutched around a town and shaped the whole thing into a strong nascent civilization with the clear prospects (and rather obvious intent) of resuming interplanar trade, then continued to work on it as a major force behind the scene even while Waukeen was out.
- Oh, and Nether the Elder (Fighter 12 / Cleric 8) of Tyche. He became the shaman king of Gers and founder of Alliance of Seventon - more known as, well, Netheril.
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People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Stormlord77
Acolyte
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2012 : 00:10:22
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
- Thauna Maskalar (2ed:P21,3ed:cleric 11/heartwarder 10) of Sune - The House of Firehair, Daerlun.
- Raulauvin Oregh (2ed:P20) of Chauntea - High Harvest Home, Elturel.
- Bloenin (2ed:P24,3ed:?) of Gond - lantar, Lantan.
the next tier (18-19):
- Tolgar Anuvien (2ed:P18,3ed:Clr16/Dis3) of Chauntea - Goldenfields.
- Shanathera Moonsoul (2ed:P18) of Selûne - Silverymoon.
- Lauren DeVillars (2ed:P18) of Waukeen - Ravens Bluff.
If you want movers and shakers... dunno about 20+, but - Tolgar Anuvien is the founder and leader of Goldenfields.
- Lady Lauren DeVillars pretty much took a bunch of little baronies clutched around a town and shaped the whole thing into a strong nascent civilization with the clear prospects (and rather obvious intent) of resuming interplanar trade, then continued to work on it as a major force behind the scene even while Waukeen was out.
- Oh, and Nether the Elder (Fighter 12 / Cleric 8) of Tyche. He became the shaman king of Gers and founder of Alliance of Seventon - more known as, well, Netheril.
just out of curiosity
have any of these priests received any novel time? Or are they stat blocks in various source books? If so, are they major characters in said novels?
not being sarcastic, just wondering if there was anything I am missing? |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2012 : 23:00:07
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| Iraclea also played a small part in the Hunter's Blades trilogy of Drizzt novels- (Thousand Orcs, Two Swords, Lone Drow) I believe the frost giants were followers of Auril, and Iyraclea and the head Frost Giantess had some scenes together. IIRC. I know I saw her name in one of the novels, ans she was apparently badd-a$$ enough to frighten the frost giantess- who was a high-level priestess in her own right, BTW.... |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
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Stormlord77
Acolyte
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2012 : 00:30:51
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strange, i've got and read all the drizzt novels (except the newest one, which i got) and i dont recall this at all
hrm, they are on the reread from the beginning one day list :P |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2012 : 01:43:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I seem to recall that it was brief, but painted her much more favorably than in the Dragon Rage books.
Alystra! Where have you been? The Tavern has been dead without you! |
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Tren of Twilight Tower
Seeker
51 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2012 : 06:00:38
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| I do not buy that "I am sexier than thou" argument - meaning mages are sexier than priests, or whatever. There is nothing that a little bit of good publication cannot do - i.e. every class/character is as sexy as writer makes it. To summarize, if writer is any good, any class is go (read: sexy). |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36996 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2012 : 11:00:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Tren of Twilight Tower
I do not buy that "I am sexier than thou" argument - meaning mages are sexier than priests, or whatever. There is nothing that a little bit of good publication cannot do - i.e. every class/character is as sexy as writer makes it. To summarize, if writer is any good, any class is go (read: sexy).
I agree that it depends on the writer.
That doesn't change the fact that when someone things of fantasy characters, they're usually thinking of the mighty swordswinger or the powerful arcane spellslinger. The guy slinking around picking pockets is a distant third, and the guy invoking divine wrath is an even more distant fourth.
Swords and sorcery is what is iconic for fantasy, not lockpicks and prayers. Hence, my statement that they're not as sexy. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2526 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2012 : 14:49:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I seem to recall that it was brief, but painted her much more favorably than in the Dragon Rage books.
Well, yeah, Iyraclea the Ice Queen was tough there. Not as tough as Sammaster, but who is?  Wasn't she supposed to be a Chosen, however? So it's even less clear whether she was killed thoroughly enough or not, and obviously even a mortal dug in as good as she was could have some high-end contingency/clone/corporeality/radical body transmutation/undeath/all of this/etc magic up both sleeves. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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Stormlord77
Acolyte
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2012 : 20:24:09
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i could see a series of books, narrated by a diety. Describing the life and trials of one of his greatest priests. Perhaps the diety is lecturing a solar or demihuman diety (whatever) as to why humanity deserves a chance or is worth the attentions of said particular diety.
think the drizzt novels, where instead of drizzt writing his thoughts, it could be the diety giving HIS thoughts, describing the challenges his priest needed to overcome etc etc
i dunno, think it would be interesting |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2012 : 01:05:48
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I seem to recall that it was brief, but painted her much more favorably than in the Dragon Rage books.
Well, yeah, Iyraclea the Ice Queen was tough there. Not as tough as Sammaster, but who is? Wasn't she supposed to be a Chosen, however? So it's even less clear whether she was killed thoroughly enough or not, and obviously even a mortal dug in as good as she was could have some high-end contingency/clone/corporeality/radical body transmutation/undeath/all of this/etc magic up both sleeves.
I was a bit disappointed that she had to fight just a lackey of Sammaster (Zethrindor) and not Sammaster himself. Her defeat could simply mean she somehow lost most of Auril's favor... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Where the priests at?
