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Stormlord77
Acolyte
USA
25 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Jun 2012 : 00:22:21
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Forgotten realms has dozens of mages level 20+
its almost as if we are drowning in arch-magi 
where are all the high level priests?
Matron Baenre was listed as 25th level
there was a 2nd matron mother in 2nd that was listed at level 20
cadderly was 20+
ummm Fzoul chembryl
and what about high level druids?
i am sure folks can point to some rulebook and point out npc's with levels, but dont seem to have much info and also they never make it into the novels ... Just strikes me as strange considering how fleshed out the pantheon is and how "relatively" active the gods are in FR
or am i wrong and just not seeing them?
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2012 : 00:46:44
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You had a whole passel of high level druids throwing down with priests of Talos in The Jewel of Turmish. The entire upper echelons of Waukeen's clergy show up in the Scions of Arrabar. Clerics of Kossuth are all over the start of the Thayan civil war (until they get blown up). Seiveril is one of the ranking members of Corellon's clergy on Evermeet before he leads the Last Mythal War.
That's just off the top of my head. There are plenty of others in the sourcebooks, like the master of Goldenfields, They're not as common as their wizard brethren, you're right, but that's partly just due to fantasy convention. People expect wizards, so they show up more often. Doesn't mean there aren't just as many powerful priests running around too. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4266 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2012 : 00:55:02
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It would be better for the Forgotten Realms if a "powerful priest" was someone capable of raising the dead...and a powerful wizard was someone capable of Teleportation. The "bloom" of the powerful came with 2nd Edition I'm afraid.
Sure there were powerful casters in 1e...but not nameless legions of the same! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2012 : 01:00:07
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It's a real bias you're seeing, though there are certainly many high-level priests who could be cited. It's a good question, but difficult to answer because in this area more than many others we don't know how well the published materials reflect the underlying setting.
Published characters are a subset -- at times a misleadingly small one -- of people in the Realms. We see this, for instance, in how many new, powerful characters of all classes appear in Ed's fiction. Now, in the 1980s there were several 'Pages from the Mages' articles on wizardly spellbooks before the first on clerical ones; and relatively few of Ed's and other authors' protagonist characters are priests. On the other hand, we know that he's developed voluminous material on the priesthoods, their members, organization and practices, which has not seen print, for reasons including TSR's Code of Ethics and the shift of emphasis to the gods themselves started by the 1989 Avatar novels. We know the priesthoods are major players in the great long-term power struggles of Faerūn, and that many of them have centrally organized hierarchies whose leadership hasn't been revealed. So to some extent the relative paucity of known priestly characters reflects personal preference among authors, to some extent editorial direction or accident and perceived audience preference; how much of this is how the setting is, and how much is a selection bias in what's published, is unclear, and not a question I believe Ed has been asked on his Q&A thread.
I don't think we can learn much from published character levels alone, since many of them were supplied by editors rather than authors, and in any case not according to any particularly coordinated or consistent scheme. |
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Stormlord77
Acolyte
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2012 : 01:04:44
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Hoondatha
its telling that you couldnt (or at least just didn't) name any one of those high level druids/priests of waukeen
the priests of kossuth obviously didn't stick around long enough to make much of an impression.
i have the Last Mythal War and read it, but don't recall Seiveril...might have to re-read it at some point
just seems to me that with soo many arch-magi, they only worry about other arch-magi, think a high level priest would make for a good foil for one of them.. reoccurring villain/hero (depending on your perspective and interests hehe) |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3768 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2012 : 02:57:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Stormlord77
i have the Last Mythal War and read it, but don't recall Seiveril...might have to re-read it at some point
-He's arguably the most important character in the series.
-In terms of naming powerful Clerics and other divine types featured in novels, there's a plethora to choose from: Cadderly Bonaduce, Daelegoth Orndeir, Erevis Cale, Fzoul Chembryl, Gareth Dragonsbane, Kesson Rel, Rivalen Tanthul, Qilue Veladorn, Seiveril Miritar, various Drow Matron Mothers, and I'm sure I'm forgetting a bunch. As it is, I'm ignoring individuals who are Clerics but wouldn't necessarily be considered 'powerful' (even if they're important in the novels they are characters in).
-In terms of pointing out names in sourcebooks, there's hundreds. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2012 : 04:22:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Stormlord77
its telling that you couldnt (or at least just didn't) name any one of those high level druids/priests of waukeen
Or I was just doing an overview, quoting books that I read years ago and never bothered to reread because they aren't very good. I like the Emerald Enclave a great deal, but the Jewel of Turmish was mediocre. And actually, the Kossuth priests that got wiped out were all the mid-level ones; the patriarch and several other high-ranking priests stayed alive throughout the series and had a voice on the council near-equal to the Zulkirs.
Don't over-read into a single response. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2012 : 04:35:36
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| I think we need to see more in the novels. I'm specifically interested in Invokers, the priestly versions of sorcerers. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2012 : 05:35:08
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The High Priest of Kossuth in Thay. He's far too powerful and influential that the zulkirs almost treated him like an equal.
If you would consider theurges, then put Rivalen Tanthul on your list. (Personally, though, I don't keep a list as I am no fan of priests, powerful or otherwise. That's probably the reason I forgot most of them.)
Variance is also a great priest...of Shar. She's almost as formidable as Rivalen in terms of priestly magic. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Stormlord77
Acolyte
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2012 : 07:02:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
quote:
Originally posted by Stormlord77
its telling that you couldnt (or at least just didn't) name any one of those high level druids/priests of waukeen
Or I was just doing an overview, quoting books that I read years ago and never bothered to reread because they aren't very good. I like the Emerald Enclave a great deal, but the Jewel of Turmish was mediocre. And actually, the Kossuth priests that got wiped out were all the mid-level ones; the patriarch and several other high-ranking priests stayed alive throughout the series and had a voice on the council near-equal to the Zulkirs.
Don't over-read into a single response.
fair enough, no offense intended
my point is more how people can roll off lists arch-magi's names and deeds and finding high level clerical types is alot more difficult. I really liked the showdown between Cadderly and his father...i would like to see more stories/novels that pit them against each other in that fashion and/or as viable opponents (or really high level priests as viable allies/protagonists) rather the more support level characters you normally see. |
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Stormlord77
Acolyte
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2012 : 07:03:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
If you would consider theurges, then put Rivalen Tanthul on your list. (Personally, though, I don't keep a list as I am no fan of priests, powerful or otherwise. That's probably the reason I forgot most of them.)
Variance is also a great priest...of Shar. She's almost as formidable as Rivalen in terms of priestly magic.
I am a little behind (not really read any FR since 4th edition came out) what stories are they from? |
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Stormlord77
Acolyte
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2012 : 07:07:00
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| oh wait, i Remember Rivalen, he is a shade isnt he? Not familiar with Variance at all though |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2012 : 07:12:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Stormlord77
oh wait, i Remember Rivalen, he is a shade isnt he? Not familiar with Variance at all though
Yes, Rivalen is a shade, one of the Princes of Shade Enclave, and now an exarch. He appeared in Return of the Archwizards by Troy Denning and The Twilight War by Paul S. Kemp.
Variance also appeared in The Twilight War. She's the 'right hand' of Rivalen. She was hardly given novel time though. The longest was during the siege of Selgaunt.
And oh! I remember Pavel from Year of Rogue Dragons by RLB. Any priest [spoiler]that could destroy the phylactery of a very powerful lich (Sammaster) deserves a gold medal.
How can we forget the (probably) most powerful priest in history: Iyraclea! [Ed once said (I paraphrase here) that she'd definitely give Laloch a pause.]
That is, Stormlord77, if you'd like your list to include living and deceased priests alike. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 09 Jun 2012 07:25:13 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8066 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2012 : 08:09:57
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| High-level priests are listed in many sources, including the 2E FRA. Some of these are "patriarch" figures, possessing supreme stature within their god's church. Admittedly, they typically receive only a condensed stat block and are typically fleshed out in detail when participating in an adventure. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4266 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2012 : 10:45:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
How can we forget the (probably) most powerful priest in history: Iyraclea! [Ed once said (I paraphrase here) that she'd definitely give Laloch a pause.]
I've been reading this thread trying to remember that witch! She is dang near a Demi-God herself! Auril probably has one of the most powerful followers in the world...even Iyraclea's general is one to give anyone pause (a wizard again yes...but he serves, not rules). |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36996 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2012 : 16:20:13
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| There's a simple reason why priests haven't been too prominent... They're not the sexy ones. In fantasy, the prominent characters are generally either swordswingers or arcane spellslingers -- hence the term, "swords and sorcery." People want to see the daring swordplay, or the mountain-leveling spells. The guy off to one side praying really has a hard time comparing to the other two. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2012 : 18:19:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There's a simple reason why priests haven't been too prominent... They're not the sexy ones. In fantasy, the prominent characters are generally either swordswingers or arcane spellslingers -- hence the term, "swords and sorcery." People want to see the daring swordplay, or the mountain-leveling spells. The guy off to one side praying really has a hard time comparing to the other two.
But why cant priests be sexy? At high levels their ability cast divine magic puts them on par with mages. Then there's the healing and Banishing/Turning/controlling of undead and outsiders.
I'm getting a little tired of Battle mages and bladesingers.
To make things interesting they should showcase the rarer and exotic forms of priests. For example , I like the Invoker class , basically the priestly version of a sorcerer.
The thing about priests are their versatility. You want a magelike priest, well then pick a priest of Magic sphere Diety. You want a throw down kick ass priest, pick a priest of Tempus.
How about a half giant Invoker of Tempus or Uthgar that would be cool concept IMO. |
Edited by - jordanz on 09 Jun 2012 18:35:08 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3768 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2012 : 21:52:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Stormlord77
my point is more how people can roll off lists arch-magi's names and deeds and finding high level clerical types is alot more difficult. I really liked the showdown between Cadderly and his father...i would like to see more stories/novels that pit them against each other in that fashion and/or as viable opponents (or really high level priests as viable allies/protagonists) rather the more support level characters you normally see.
-They're not, though. Confirmation bias.
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
But why cant priests be sexy? At high levels their ability cast divine magic puts them on par with mages. Then there's the healing and Banishing/Turning/controlling of undead and outsiders.
-I think a lot of the powers that a powerful Cleric would presumably have would make them a little iffy in novels. When you can cast spells like Mass Heal, the wear and tear that you sometimes see over the span of long adventures and whatever else kind of disappears. When you can have someone bring them back to life, death kind of becomes a little less meaningful (see the difference between how resurrection is handled in the Erevis Cale trilogy and in the Lady Penitent trilogy). |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 09 Jun 2012 21:55:58 |
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Stormlord77
Acolyte
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2012 : 22:08:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
The High Priest of Kossuth in Thay. He's far too powerful and influential that the zulkirs almost treated him like an equal.
If you would consider theurges, then put Rivalen Tanthul on your list. (Personally, though, I don't keep a list as I am no fan of priests, powerful or otherwise. That's probably the reason I forgot most of them.)
Variance is also a great priest...of Shar. She's almost as formidable as Rivalen in terms of priestly magic.
Ok did some inventory'ing
got book 1 and 3 of the twilight war. looking for book 2 now
got book 1 of the thay trilogy (Unclean i think) will keep an eye out for the other two
and per another suggestion, gonna look up my last mythal trilogy ..its in storage.
once i finish my current trilogy (its dragonlance mwuahahaha) i'll see if i cant change my perception somewhat |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2012 : 01:30:48
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
The thing about priests are their versatility. You want a magelike priest, well then pick a priest of Magic sphere Diety. You want a throw down kick ass priest, pick a priest of Tempus.
The most glaring uncool aspect of priests, among many others, is their extreme dependence on their patron deities. Take out their priestly magic, and they become almost nothing---unless they have part-time jobs as rogues/thieves.
Wizards and fighters are independent. Whether gods die or disappear for whatever reason, these characters shall endure. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Stormlord77
Acolyte
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2012 : 02:15:59
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i see your point, but i would counter with...its become overly used
the gods should be constant or near constant...they SHOULD be more reliable than arcane magic (you have an uber, immortal being that epitomizes a concept)
the whole gods dying or disappearing thing has been over used to the point that folks actually feel that its unreliable or something
but yeah, i see your point |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2012 : 02:19:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Stormlord77
once i finish my current trilogy (its dragonlance mwuahahaha) i'll see if i cant change my perception somewhat
You might find reading the "Kingpriest Trilogy" by Chris Pierson to be of some benefit here. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2012 : 02:50:25
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There are also Banites of note in The Haunted Lands Trilogy. (You might be (slightly) surprised with what Bane did to one of his priests.)
Cera, a priestess of Amaunator featured in Brotherhood of the Griffon series by RLB, is worthy to be on you list. Power level alone, she's already there---except that she has not decided yet whether to don the role of High Priest, or not. (Complications with her love life, that's why.) |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 10 Jun 2012 02:54:45 |
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Stormlord77
Acolyte
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2012 : 03:22:26
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
You might find reading the "Kingpriest Trilogy" by Chris Pierson to be of some benefit here.
lord knows i am trying. I am familiar with it, been looking for it. But they are going for stupid amounts of money (USED) on amazon right now. one day i will get my hands on this trilogy and read it (ironically reading chris pierson's taladas trilogy right now heh)
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
There are also Banites of note in The Haunted Lands Trilogy. (You might be (slightly) surprised with what Bane did to one of his priests.)
Cera, a priestess of Amaunator featured in Brotherhood of the Griffon series by RLB, is worthy to be on you list. Power level alone, she's already there---except that she has not decided yet whether to don the role of High Priest, or not. (Complications with her love life, that's why.)
Ok, i'll give the brotherhood of the griffon series a shot when i can pick them up... |
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Stormlord77
Acolyte
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2012 : 04:32:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Stormlord77
my point is more how people can roll off lists arch-magi's names and deeds and finding high level clerical types is alot more difficult. I really liked the showdown between Cadderly and his father...i would like to see more stories/novels that pit them against each other in that fashion and/or as viable opponents (or really high level priests as viable allies/protagonists) rather the more support level characters you normally see.
-They're not, though. Confirmation bias.
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
But why cant priests be sexy? At high levels their ability cast divine magic puts them on par with mages. Then there's the healing and Banishing/Turning/controlling of undead and outsiders.
-I think a lot of the powers that a powerful Cleric would presumably have would make them a little iffy in novels. When you can cast spells like Mass Heal, the wear and tear that you sometimes see over the span of long adventures and whatever else kind of disappears. When you can have someone bring them back to life, death kind of becomes a little less meaningful (see the difference between how resurrection is handled in the Erevis Cale trilogy and in the Lady Penitent trilogy).
I think the powers of a priest could be cool to see in the novels. Resurrection/Raise dead could show a lot about a diety and their priests relationship. Who can be raised and under what circumstances, what requirements are made by the diety and from the person being raised.
Same with the mass heal, how is that less "sexy" that watching a mage teleport himself or his party to avoid traveling times?
In addition, the amount of focus the uber magi receive means we have a lot of "in character" information how mages view the world, their art and others. Why wouldnt an uber priest's views of the world and others be any less interesting. Considering the stereotype is mages = intelligence and clerics = wisdom.
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
The thing about priests are their versatility. You want a magelike priest, well then pick a priest of Magic sphere Diety. You want a throw down kick ass priest, pick a priest of Tempus.
The most glaring uncool aspect of priests, among many others, is their extreme dependence on their patron deities. Take out their priestly magic, and they become almost nothing---unless they have part-time jobs as rogues/thieves.
Wizards and fighters are independent. Whether gods die or disappear for whatever reason, these characters shall endure.
Meh, battle priests would be dangerous in combat even without their spells :D. And again, how is this different to the mage with null zones, wild magic areas, the spell plague etc etc. Talk about helpless without their magic |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2012 : 05:09:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
The thing about priests are their versatility. You want a magelike priest, well then pick a priest of Magic sphere Diety. You want a throw down kick ass priest, pick a priest of Tempus.
The most glaring uncool aspect of priests, among many others, is their extreme dependence on their patron deities. Take out their priestly magic, and they become almost nothing---unless they have part-time jobs as rogues/thieves.
Wizards and fighters are independent. Whether gods die or disappear for whatever reason, these characters shall endure.
Take away a wizards spellbooks, magic items and components away and what do you have? Take away a fighters weapons and armor and what do you have? |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4266 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2012 : 05:25:28
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
Take away a wizards spellbooks, magic items and components away and what do you have?
Me when I was 10...short, somewhat weak, and easily beat up!
quote:
Take away a fighters weapons and armor and what do you have?
Me when I was 13...5'11" tall and 175 lbs...quite capable of beating the former me into a little pile of poo! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36996 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2012 : 05:46:24
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
The thing about priests are their versatility. You want a magelike priest, well then pick a priest of Magic sphere Diety. You want a throw down kick ass priest, pick a priest of Tempus.
The most glaring uncool aspect of priests, among many others, is their extreme dependence on their patron deities. Take out their priestly magic, and they become almost nothing---unless they have part-time jobs as rogues/thieves.
Wizards and fighters are independent. Whether gods die or disappear for whatever reason, these characters shall endure.
Take away a wizards spellbooks, magic items and components away and what do you have? Take away a fighters weapons and armor and what do you have?
A wizard can get more spellbooks and such. A fighter can pick up more weapons and armor. A priest can't just pick up another deity. Even in the Realms, there's no such thing as a Deities 'R' Us store. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 10 Jun 2012 05:46:44 |
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Stormlord77
Acolyte
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2012 : 06:02:05
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and yet Clerics DO switch dieties
Fzoul for example went Bane, Xvim, Bane
and i am sure there are other examples that i am not thinking of right now. (actually quite a few anti-paladins do this too :p)
as long as the cleric and diety come to an agreement, seems like it is very possible.
but we are losing sight of the original discussion. Why are mages more popular than druids/clerics?
--are mages sexier? maybe, but perhaps not. a matter of opinion
--are clerics more dependent, yes ..and no. More dependent on a DIETY, but then the mages are dependent on the weave which comes to about the same thing, just less intelligence (or mystra/azuth if you prefer)
--are clerical powers/spells less interesting to read about then mages. Perhaps, again a matter of opinion. Drow matron mothers seem fairly interesting to read about ..for me anyways :D And thats with a crazy chaotic evil diety of chaos..and evil. Might be more interesting with a diety that actually CARES for his/her followers and their goals (which really should be in alignment with the diety by definition)
i could even see someone making the argument that if a cleric is really favored of his god, then the god would rescue/save him if he got in over his head, which could be a bit of a bummer, if the god actually does this. but we have precedent for the same thing happening already...with the chosen and Mystra. So I think that argument is out :p |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2012 : 06:05:14
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Priests are sexy, too. Mages are simply sexier. Wooly has the right of it. It's pretty easy to replace a spellbook than replacing a patron deity. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8066 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2012 : 07:00:21
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quote:
Dennis
The most glaring uncool aspect of priests, among many others, is their extreme dependence on their patron deities. Take out their priestly magic, and they become almost nothing---unless they have part-time jobs as rogues/thieves.
Wizards and fighters are independent. Whether gods die or disappear for whatever reason, these characters shall endure.
Well, Realms canon has demonstrated that's not entirely true. Wizards (and sorcerers) depend on magic governed by Mystryl or Mystra - if the goddess decides there are level caps or damage caps on the spells, or that a particular spell won't function (as intended) then so mote it be.
I'm not sure about magic, as Realms sources seem divided whether magic is inherent in people or in the world they live in. But violence, killing, and theft are certainly inherent in humans; removing Tempus or Mask wouldn't greatly diminish these things. While magic, as understood in D&D, is not present on our world; nor it seems has any deity of magic become manifest. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Where the priests at?
