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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Jun 2012 : 07:26:24
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Phaerimm consume magic as gluttonously as laraken, except shadow magic. Yet they couldn't consume or at least weaken the Sharn Wall, which was composed of magic and not shadow magic... What sorcery did the Sharn use to erect such prison?
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Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 06 Jun 2012 07:46:43
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Snow
Learned Scribe
USA
125 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2012 : 17:22:43
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| It might be explained when breaking down magic into its subtypes. Perhaps Phaerimm consume certain schools of magic better or prolificly than others. The Sharn Wall was said to be silvery in colour. So perhaps it was a form of strong abjuration magic (which is typically represented as silver in tone/colour). And I would think consuming abjuration magic would be the most difficult compared to enchantment, evocation, conjuration, etc. Due to its warding/defensive properties in general. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2012 : 19:05:58
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Who says the Sharn wall wasn't composed of Shadow magic? It seemed to react violently to Gaelaron's use of arcane magic on it.
What I want to know is why didn't the Sharn show up to fix their own damn wall? They are still around - did they suddenly decide they don't care about Phaerimm?
Instead, they became something else entirely. After reading Blackstaff twice, I still have no idea what the hell they were (I found the ending rushed and confusing). Don't get me wrong - I still enjoyed the book - I just didn't 'get' a lot of what was going on. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2012 : 21:19:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Who says the Sharn wall wasn't composed of Shadow magic? It seemed to react violently to Gaelaron's use of arcane magic on it.
No. It wasn't only Galaeron's Weave-based magic that tore a hole in the Sharn Wall. It was a combination of his and Melegaunt's shadow magic.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
What I want to know is why didn't the Sharn show up to fix their own damn wall? They are still around - did they suddenly decide they don't care about Phaerimm?
Well, they couldn't be in all places at the same time. I gather they might be attending to some more serious matters, or that they're confident (or arrogant enough) that even if the phaerimm escaped, they could round them up again and lock them up in a newly enhanced Sharn Wall. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2012 : 19:05:53
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I'm trying to remember the who and where of this, which is why I didn't post earlier. One of the designers posted here a few years ago about the Sharn Wall, and said that in addition to holding them in, it also warped their minds so that they didn't even remember it existed. Essentially, it formed an "invisible wall" holding in their territorial expansion, and vanished into their subconcious so that they weren't even aware they were being penned in.
I can't remember who the designer was, or whether it was a semi-official utterance or just some on-the-side musing, but I thought it was interesting enough to share. Basically, the phaerimm didn't try and take down the wall because they weren't even aware that there was a wall holding them in. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2012 : 19:29:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Who says the Sharn wall wasn't composed of Shadow magic? It seemed to react violently to Galaeron's use of arcane magic on it.
No. It wasn't only Galaeron's Weave-based magic that tore a hole in the Sharn Wall. It was a combination of his and Melegaunt's shadow magic.
I am reading this trilogy right now - who said so? I am about halfway through the middle of the second book, and all I see is what the Shades claim happened. In fact, whenever the matter is discussed (in a place-blame sort of fashion), they seem to be very insistent on convincing Galaeron it was him. Read the text carefully - it never states for a fact this happened - this is only what the (oh-so-trustworthy?) Shades insist happened. The fact that the entire thing looked 'planned' came up several times.
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
What I want to know is why didn't the Sharn show up to fix their own damn wall? They are still around - did they suddenly decide they don't care about Phaerimm?
Well, they couldn't be in all places at the same time. I gather they might be attending to some more serious matters, or that they're confident (or arrogant enough) that even if the phaerimm escaped, they could round them up again and lock them up in a newly enhanced Sharn Wall.
Perhaps it was psionic magic, then.
There is something there - something I can't quite put my finger on - that relates psionic talent to uber-magic (in The Realms). I'm thinking that maybe Sharn magic is Pure (complete) magic - that term was also used at least once in the series (to describe Heavy Magic).
There are two faces to magical energy - thats canon. After reading some of what Troy wrote, I am beginning to understand the nature of the conflict between the two better. The two parts of magic are actually nerfed, and most mortals don't even realize this. True power comes from being able to handle both sides, and very few can do that without it killing them. For some reason, people with latent psionic talent (like Elminster) are able to reach beyond the simple 'Shadow Magic' and 'Arcane magic', and manipulate reality itself. I think the Sharn - by their nature of being composite beings - have the extra mental 'hutzpah'* to accomplish much the same.
I think that may be what psionic energy is (In Ed's FR) - the raw magical power (primal energy) of the universe, as opposed to using one of the two halves. This is the 'pure' magic that is so dangerous to mortals, and why things like the Weave (and Shadoweave) are put in-place. It has far more power, but is harder to manage (hence, the 4e magic system - you can do more with a lot less).
*(this is great Yiddish word, meaning a combination strength, fortitude, and the shear... tenacity? ...to use them, despite any obstacles set in your path.) |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Jun 2012 19:32:58 |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2012 : 20:20:47
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I usually find your musings interesting and thought-provoking, Markus, but in this case I have to disagree. Psionics has nothing to do with magic, in the Realms or otherwhere. It is completely driven by the person, and in many cases is actually transparent to magic (and vice versa). The best example of this is House Oblodra during the Time of Troubles, whose psionics were completely unaffected by the chaos of the time.
I think most psionicists would also make good wizards, since at least in 2e, Intelligence was one of the class's prime stats, and I think Int is also the key stat for 3.5's psions as well. But that doesn't mean that psionics is at all related to magic. It isn't. They're two completely separate disciplines. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2012 : 20:45:13
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| This might be a good question for the Schend. I believe that he knows (and has probably written) a lot of Sharn lore. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2012 : 22:56:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I am reading this trilogy right now - who said so? I am about halfway through the middle of the second book, and all I see is what the Shades claim happened. In fact, whenever the matter is discussed (in a place-blame sort of fashion), they seem to be very insistent on convincing Galaeron it was him. Read the text carefully - it never states for a fact this happened - this is only what the (oh-so-trustworthy?) Shades insist happened. The fact that the entire thing looked 'planned' came up several times.
-I generally wouldn't say this, but in that trilogy, it comes up quite a few times: The Shadovar lie a lot, in an effort to convince Galaeron what they want him to think, and to manipulate him. Over the course of those three books, it's to the point that I'd consider anything said or claimed by them unreliable, unless confirmed elsewhere (in the book, or in other novels/sourcebooks).
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
*(this is great Yiddish word, meaning a combination strength, fortitude, and the shear... tenacity? ...to use them, despite any obstacles set in your path.)
-A better, possibly more accurate translation for chutzpah is simply 'balls'.  |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 07 Jun 2012 22:57:48 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2012 : 01:40:27
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I know that - I just wanted to keep my definition PG13. 
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
I usually find your musings interesting and thought-provoking, Markus, but in this case I have to disagree. Psionics has nothing to do with magic, in the Realms or otherwhere. It is completely driven by the person, and in many cases is actually transparent to magic (and vice versa). The best example of this is House Oblodra during the Time of Troubles, whose psionics were completely unaffected by the chaos of the time.
I think most psionicists would also make good wizards, since at least in 2e, Intelligence was one of the class's prime stats, and I think Int is also the key stat for 3.5's psions as well. But that doesn't mean that psionics is at all related to magic. It isn't. They're two completely separate disciplines.
Elminster is a latent psionicist, and we can see what he can do. Also, at least two Magisters found there were groups of people with 'natural ability' for doing magic. AFAIK, magic does not run in bloodlines (this isn't Harry Potter), but psionics does. You'll probably bring up the Harpells, but that just backs up my statement - who's to say their 'genetic gift' isn't some unknown power of the mind - the ability to manipulate magical energies much easier then others?
Magic and psionics are different in D&D, but I don't think Ed meant it to be so. In every instance I read of his (old) lore, someone with psionic abilities has more magical potential. Think about it - Vancian magic IS psionics - you implant a mental pattern into yuor brain, and then release it.
When shadow energy and arcane energy combine, its like a nuclear reaction... and is also the stuff universes (and life) are made from. Psionics - whether you think its science or magic - directly manipulates the fundamental forces of the universe, without needing to go through an interface like the Weave (or Shadoweave). Now, if Heavy magic = Pure (unrestrained) magic - the kind made up of both the positive and negatives halves (which the novel specifically says), then who's to say this 'heavy Magic' isn't a type of science itself? That with it, you can directly alter reality and don't need to 'cast spells' like those poor, nerfed weave-users do.
If it smells like a duck, walks like a duck, etc... I just don't see that much difference between the two - both 'Heavy (whole) magic' and psionics do the same thing - they bypass all the gobly-goop and get right down to business. Normally, mortals can only handle a small bit of reality-altering (without going mad), but with something like the Karsetone, thats just a big piles of WISH right there (unlimited, without any of that crazy backfire, genie stuff).
And didn't anyone else see the background explanation there? The Shadoweave was born when Karsus cast his spell and Mystryl died - its right there in black & white. Mystryl controlled both halves of the magic - no Mystra ever did. That means Netherese Archwizards can use any magic they wanted - it all came from Mystra back then.
That means the 'Shadoweave' was never a separate entity - it was always the other half of the Weave - the half Mystra lost. How stupid of Shar to think one could stand without the other. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Jun 2012 01:41:12 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36912 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2012 : 03:46:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And didn't anyone else see the background explanation there? The Shadoweave was born when Karsus cast his spell and Mystryl died - its right there in black & white. Mystryl controlled both halves of the magic - no Mystra ever did. That means Netherese Archwizards can use any magic they wanted - it all came from Mystra back then.
That means the 'Shadoweave' was never a separate entity - it was always the other half of the Weave - the half Mystra lost. How stupid of Shar to think one could stand without the other.
Not according to canon. It's explicitly stated, in canon, that Shar created the Shadow Weave. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2012 : 04:54:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And didn't anyone else see the background explanation there? The Shadoweave was born when Karsus cast his spell and Mystryl died - its right there in black & white. Mystryl controlled both halves of the magic - no Mystra ever did. That means Netherese Archwizards can use any magic they wanted - it all came from Mystra back then.
-Another example of Shadovar lies and propaganda. Though, at the time of the book being published, that origin of the Shadow Weave could of been the one Denning/whoever believed was the actual one. We know it isn't now though, so Shadovar lies. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2012 : 06:25:30
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I prefer a simpler explanation for the Sharn Wall - it uses raw magic, largely bypassing the Weave or Shadow Weave to tap into raw power directly (raw power that the Weave naturally serves as a buffer against, but which might be possible to bypass if you are either an immensely powerful individual or collective).
(Or an even more simple explanation: A Wizard Did It!) |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2012 : 07:03:42
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| Perhaps the magic involved was something that the Sharn cooperated together to cast, Phaerimm are after all very vicious towards even their own kind and yes they did want to get the rest of their race out, but that does not the mean the constant plots and assasination attempts on hated rivals would be stopped...? |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2012 : 07:20:54
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Shar did create it. I'm not sure how that negates anything. We are all really saying the same thing here.
Its the mortal (our) concept of what the Weaves actually are that is flawed.
In the beginning, there was two sources of power - light & dark (neg. and pos., shadow and arcane, etc - take your pick). Selune took her power and threw it through Shar, tearing Shar's own power from her. The two combined, and formed THE Weave. Just one. That Weave - a massive ball of primordial energy - formed a sentience (I actually think it 'borrowed' one, but thats another story).
Mystryl was THE Weave. One Mystryl, one Weave. Half of that was the power that belonged to Selune (the Light), and the other half was the power that came from Shar (the darkness). Together, the two energies became Raw Magic, and that awesome power is what mystra shields mortals from. 'raw', 'Heavy', 'Whole' - its all the same thing - the two opposite energies combined into one mega-energy (its like a never-ending atomic explosion... like a Sun, in fact).
When Mystryl was destroyed, THE Weave collapsed. When Mystra came along and rebooted the Weave, she somehow lost control of the other half of it. Either she was unawre of this (being a new deity), or she just didn't bother with it. This is when shar seized her half.
The Weave was never two separate things - it was one thing with two sides. You can no more take them apart then you can separate yourself from your shadow. You can take the energy itself apart, but that would destroy the entire thing (both sides). It would akin to trying to melt-away one side of a coin, or separate oxygen and heat from fire.
The only way to destroy The Weave completely is to utterly separate the energy from both halves, which s probably why Mystra couldn't return this time. Shar wanted her cake and eat it to, but she couldn't - she may have reabsorbed the shadow energy after Mystra 2.0 fell, but she couldn't have the Shadoweave. That was gone with all the rest. And I am not even sure she did reabsorb that power - I think it went somewhere else (and is part of what is going to happen with this whole Shar/Lolth thing)
So, did Shar create the shadoweave? In a manner of speaking, yes. That was her energy, and when it was stripped from her it became one half of THE Weave. Did she create the Shadoweave after Karsus' Folly? Not really - she merely gained control of the half that had her lost energy in it (the dark half). Before that point in time, their was no need for terms like 'Arcane Weave' or 'Shadoweave' - it was just The Weave. When she gained control of the half with her power in it, she may have given it a name - the Shadoweave - but that's all it was... just a name. Thats what she created - the concept. She just showed them how to "take a walk on the wild side".
This is just a case of mortals not understanding the full breath of what is going on - they are trying to envision concepts for beyond their imaginations. All 'truths' are true at the same time, even when they appear to be contradictory. We are talking about a goddess of mysteries and goddess of secrets - is it small wonder that no-one ever gets the full low-down about what all of this really means? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Jun 2012 07:25:58 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36912 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2012 : 10:31:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Shar did create it. I'm not sure how that negates anything. We are all really saying the same thing here.
No, we're not. You're saying the Shadow Weave was always there and that Mystryl controlled it. She couldn't have controlled it if it was created later, by a rival. |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2012 : 13:50:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Who says the Sharn wall wasn't composed of Shadow magic? It seemed to react violently to Galaeron's use of arcane magic on it.
No. It wasn't only Galaeron's Weave-based magic that tore a hole in the Sharn Wall. It was a combination of his and Melegaunt's shadow magic.
I am reading this trilogy right now - who said so? I am about halfway through the middle of the second book, and all I see is what the Shades claim happened. In fact, whenever the matter is discussed (in a place-blame sort of fashion), they seem to be very insistent on convincing Galaeron it was him. Read the text carefully - it never states for a fact this happened - this is only what the (oh-so-trustworthy?) Shades insist happened. The fact that the entire thing looked 'planned' came up several times.
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
What I want to know is why didn't the Sharn show up to fix their own damn wall? They are still around - did they suddenly decide they don't care about Phaerimm?
Well, they couldn't be in all places at the same time. I gather they might be attending to some more serious matters, or that they're confident (or arrogant enough) that even if the phaerimm escaped, they could round them up again and lock them up in a newly enhanced Sharn Wall.
Perhaps it was psionic magic, then.
There is something there - something I can't quite put my finger on - that relates psionic talent to uber-magic (in The Realms). I'm thinking that maybe Sharn magic is Pure (complete) magic - that term was also used at least once in the series (to describe Heavy Magic).
There are two faces to magical energy - thats canon. After reading some of what Troy wrote, I am beginning to understand the nature of the conflict between the two better. The two parts of magic are actually nerfed, and most mortals don't even realize this. True power comes from being able to handle both sides, and very few can do that without it killing them. For some reason, people with latent psionic talent (like Elminster) are able to reach beyond the simple 'Shadow Magic' and 'Arcane magic', and manipulate reality itself. I think the Sharn - by their nature of being composite beings - have the extra mental 'hutzpah'* to accomplish much the same.
I think that may be what psionic energy is (In Ed's FR) - the raw magical power (primal energy) of the universe, as opposed to using one of the two halves. This is the 'pure' magic that is so dangerous to mortals, and why things like the Weave (and Shadoweave) are put in-place. It has far more power, but is harder to manage (hence, the 4e magic system - you can do more with a lot less).
*(this is great Yiddish word, meaning a combination strength, fortitude, and the shear... tenacity? ...to use them, despite any obstacles set in your path.)
I believe what you are thinking of here is something above and beyond mind magic; I believe you are thinking of Incarnim the stuff of souls, I believe that the evidence shows that heavy magic and Incarnim is the same thing. What is more I think so, not only in regards to what the creators have said, but what they have implied as well. Let is hold then that heavy magic is Incarnim as our first assumption, let us test its validity, and see if it holds.
First, we agree that in the beginning a dualism existed in the war between Shar and Selune . The two battled over the nature of creation. One wanted to create, one wanted to destroy. This an element from Zorastren and Hindu systems. Jeduism nor christanity have the same level of duelism, at least not directly. Although one could make an argument between the parallel of the Morning lord and the Chief Arch angel, with God being the Ao equivalent, but I digress. So during the dualistic war, the weave and Mystreal was formed.
This is the only time that the two would be one, as after this point Mystra had ties to mortality. I think you can follow this point well enough without me putting each subjunction.
Now, lets take a look at magic for a moment, using a quote by Mr. Baker, as found in the Shadow Stone:
"There are two things you must do in order to work magic ... to cast a spell, as humans say," Fineghal began. "First you must summon the energy for your spell. We live in a magical world, Aeron, surrounded by unseen powers and forces. Every living creature carries a spark of magic, but the very stones, earth, wind, and waters multiply this living magic a thousandfold."
"So magic comes from the land around us?"
"Yes and no. The life of the world around us is the power that makes magic possible, but it is a force without direction, without volition-unrealized potential. In order to tap this energy, we immerse ourselves in the Weave."
Aeron frowned, thinking. "Aren't magic and the Weave the same thing?"
"Almost, but not quite. The Weave is the soul of magic, the manifestation of all the untapped energy around us. It is the surface that we can perceive and shape to our purposes.
From this quote we can see that the weave is the soul of magic and that it is in every element of reality. It is a fundamental piece of reality, and in every respects follows the near eastern mystic idea that a single element can be found in all of creation. For the near eastern this single element is soul, all things have a piece, if not all of, a soul. And just as the weave is the soul of magic and the weave is in all things, all things here have some piece of soul in them. Now let us hold this for a moment and turn ourselves to heavy magic. Both the magic of Incarnim and an article by Eytan Bernstein demonstrates a number of similarties between Incarnim and heavy magic. The first is in their description of unshaped soul stuff; or as It resembles dollops of clear honey that can be dabbed on objects and combined with spells to create a variety of effects. What is more bthe article states that The most frequent exposure to heavy magic occurred among visitors to Karsus's enclave, Eileanar. Heavy magic achieved everyday use in Eileanar through the creation of a gallery of "spell art." Regular visitors and residents of the enclave who experienced prolonged exposure to the gallery were prone to absorbing the magic and transferring it to their descendants.
It is known that Karsus successfully obtained the power to influence the weave, to a point that he stripped Mystreal away from it. This a given. It is stated above that Karsus already had access to heavy magic and heavy magic mimipulation. Given that that the weave is the soul of magic and that the weave exists in all things, Karsus must have had access to soul manipulation. This brings us back to the likeness of heavy magic and soul magic, independently of the comparisons so noted. On three points therefore, we have that heavy magic is equivalent to soul magic, the first is being in the dualistic nature and the patterns of Mystreals creation, the second in the similarties in the two substances, and the third being through Karsus. What is more, the ability to tape into Incarnim and heavy magic are both claimed to be past down through bloodlines. Thus, explaining how others of the archmages blood line might be able to do some of the world bending things they have done.
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We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Snow
Learned Scribe
USA
125 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2012 : 14:20:35
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I'm still giving credit to my original theory ... in that the Phaerimm do indeed consume magic ... but it has not been stated which types, subtypes, schools or "flavors" of magic they can consume or prefer to consume. We just don't have that specific information available to us. Incarnum & Psionic alt-magic may factor into this, but I have a feeling it comes down to schools subtypes of magic.
I agree that Mr. Schend should be consulted on this for details. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2012 : 14:58:23
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| Well Markustay also has a point. It is canon that Selune and Shar fought and in so doing created Mystryl which is why Shar at the time could not oppose her sister. Not only was Mystryl siding with her sister, she also had in a way her own power invested in Mystryl. When Mystryl took her own life to save the Weave from Karsus, she essentially separated herself and in a way put herself back together, but the part of Shar's power may have escaped. Perhaps this is why Shar could so easily create the Shadow weave after Netheril's fall. Not only was it formerly of THE Weave, it was in fact partly of her and when she invested more of her time and own godly power, Shar could easily affect it to bring about the Shadow Weave that spanned the world. Of course, the truth of the matter is that she wont tell being the goddess of secrets but this query could be forwarded to Ed to get some substantial answers... |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2012 : 16:01:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Shar did create it. I'm not sure how that negates anything. We are all really saying the same thing here.
No, we're not. You're saying the Shadow Weave was always there and that Mystryl controlled it. She couldn't have controlled it if it was created later, by a rival.
'THE Weave' was always there (and accessible to everyone).
What Shar created was the concept that they were separate.
The Macedonian people did not create Macedonia, they created the nation of Macedonia - Macedonia was always there. And much like Shar's power, a very long time ago it to was a separate thing. I could use the same analogy with East & West Germany, or North & South Korea. Something can be created out of something else, but it doesn't mean it actually came into existence at that moment. A name is just a name, a very human convention.
It also explains why Mages were less powerful after the fall - it was NOT something Mystra did on purpose, it was something that came about because the magic itself was less powerful - she no longer had control of the other half. According to WotAW, Shar did not put the same limitations on her casters, but I think to a certain degree, she really had no choice in this. She, too, only had half of what was once whole (the novels call Netherese/Mystryl magic 'whole magic' at least twice).
I actually find I really like Troy Denning's take on all of this - its the very first time the Shadoweave made sense to me in context of previous FR lore. I don't know why I avoided this series for so long... I guess sometimes you shouldn't listen to people on the internet. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Jun 2012 16:04:29 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36912 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2012 : 18:38:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Shar did create it. I'm not sure how that negates anything. We are all really saying the same thing here.
No, we're not. You're saying the Shadow Weave was always there and that Mystryl controlled it. She couldn't have controlled it if it was created later, by a rival.
'THE Weave' was always there (and accessible to everyone).
What Shar created was the concept that they were separate.
The Macedonian people did not create Macedonia, they created the nation of Macedonia - Macedonia was always there. And much like Shar's power, a very long time ago it to was a separate thing. I could use the same analogy with East & West Germany, or North & South Korea. Something can be created out of something else, but it doesn't mean it actually came into existence at that moment. A name is just a name, a very human convention.
It also explains why Mages were less powerful after the fall - it was NOT something Mystra did on purpose, it was something that came about because the magic itself was less powerful - she no longer had control of the other half. According to WotAW, Shar did not put the same limitations on her casters, but I think to a certain degree, she really had no choice in this. She, too, only had half of what was once whole (the novels call Netherese/Mystryl magic 'whole magic' at least twice).
I actually find I really like Troy Denning's take on all of this - its the very first time the Shadoweave made sense to me in context of previous FR lore. I don't know why I avoided this series for so long... I guess sometimes you shouldn't listen to people on the internet.
It is explicitly stated that Shar created the Shadow Weave, from the spaces within the Weave. This doesn't mean that she grabbed an errant half of something that already existed, it means she created something new from where there was nothing.
It's also explicitly stated that Mystra limited mages, after Karsus. Not that it was an accident, but that it was a deliberate Ban.
And Shar didn't put limitations on the Shadow Weave because the Shadow Weave is a shadow of the existing Weave, and because the shadow of something can't be more than that which it is a shadow of. The Shadow Weave is, by its inherent nature, less than the Weave. This, too, is canon. |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1272 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2012 : 20:15:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It is explicitly stated that Shar created the Shadow Weave, from the spaces within the Weave. This doesn't mean that she grabbed an errant half of something that already existed, it means she created something new from where there was nothing.
It's also explicitly stated that Mystra limited mages, after Karsus. Not that it was an accident, but that it was a deliberate Ban.
And Shar didn't put limitations on the Shadow Weave because the Shadow Weave is a shadow of the existing Weave, and because the shadow of something can't be more than that which it is a shadow of. The Shadow Weave is, by its inherent nature, less than the Weave. This, too, is canon.
Not trying to step on toes here, I just found this subject interesting and wanted to ask a few questions to satisfy curiosity.
1. I may very well be wrong, but an old DM friend of mine described each Edition's Campaign Setting as the world (in this case, Toril) described as it is understood by the most learned of its inhabitants. Therefore, canon, while "true" doesn't have to be what the book says, but is ultimatly up to the DM/Publisher, yes?
2. If that's so, then when published canon in 3E says that the Shadow Weave is made up of holes in the Weave, could it not mean the Weave of Arcane Magic, seeing as most sages might not yet realize they used to be together, both Shadow and Regular Weaves?
3. In such a case, most Mages after Mystryl's fall would easily tap back into the lesser Weave because it is controled by a lesser form of the goddess they served. (Mystra, Mystryl's diminished form, but still goddess of Magic in title) Shar would have simply made the Shadow Weave from the little bit of her old power that once made up the Super Weave.
Thus, "raw" magic, once accessed through the super weave, would now only be accessible by a precious few. (Chosen, psionicists, Incarnum, etc)
On the subject of the Phaerim being able to consume certain schools of magic better than others, weren't the schools of magic a little different during Netheril than presented in 3E? If so, what bearing would that have on that theory?
Many thanks.
- Delwa of Tangled Trees |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2012 : 20:29:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
Not trying to step on toes here, I just found this subject interesting and wanted to ask a few questions to satisfy curiosity.
1. I may very well be wrong, but an old DM friend of mine described each Edition's Campaign Setting as the world (in this case, Toril) described as it is understood by the most learned of its inhabitants. Therefore, canon, while "true" doesn't have to be what the book says, but is ultimatly up to the DM/Publisher, yes?
2. If that's so, then when published canon in 3E says that the Shadow Weave is made up of holes in the Weave, could it not mean the Weave of Arcane Magic, seeing as most sages might not yet realize they used to be together, both Shadow and Regular Weaves?
3. In such a case, most Mages after Mystryl's fall would easily tap back into the lesser Weave because it is controled by a lesser form of the goddess they served. (Mystra, Mystryl's diminished form, but still goddess of Magic in title) Shar would have simply made the Shadow Weave from the little bit of her old power that once made up the Super Weave.
Thus, "raw" magic, once accessed through the super weave, would now only be accessible by a precious few. (Chosen, psionicists, Incarnum, etc)
-From 3e on, the "unreliable narrator" point-of-view was scrapped, in favor of a general 3rd person narrator that simply described things as is, unless otherwise indicated. Plenty of 1e and 2e "facts" and mysteries were cleared up because of the POV in 3e sourcebooks (the death of Aravae Ilythil, for example), and plenty of 1e, 2e, and 3e "facts" and mysteries were cleared up because of the POV in 4e sourcebooks (that X deity actually has always been Y deity, for example).
-Ultimatley, in your own games or opinions, up can be down and left can be right, but official books will still say up is up, and left is left. In theory, the seemingly omniscient narrator of 3e books could be mistaken, or even misleading and lying to us, but that doesn't serve any purpose- and, in a world that is generally well received by most precisely because of what has been told of it, that would probably be very counterproductive. It is not a leap of logic to believe that if in 5e we were told that Waterdeep actually has always been a hamlet inhabited by a family of Halflings that likes to tell embellished stories, that Evermeet actually is a desert inhabited by Undead sheep, that Cormyr never existed to begin with, and that the entire area is actually a giant lake, or various other things, people would react negatively, and people would not take things very seriously. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1272 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2012 : 20:54:58
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My lord Karsus, I thank you. Though, I must say, your reply has left me suffering from a hint of deja vu.
quote:
Originally posted by Snow
It might be explained when breaking down magic into its subtypes. Perhaps Phaerimm consume certain schools of magic better or prolificly than others. The Sharn Wall was said to be silvery in colour. So perhaps it was a form of strong abjuration magic (which is typically represented as silver in tone/colour). And I would think consuming abjuration magic would be the most difficult compared to enchantment, evocation, conjuration, etc. Due to its warding/defensive properties in general.
This theory kind of intrigues me. I'd like to understand any objections to it, if any. I'm working on a Campaign where the very nature of Magic is a key element, and this could shape things rather colourfuly if it holds water under criticism.
As I understand, the Netherese separated magic thusly:
Invention, Mentalism, Variation
I can't find my sources for that offhand. Hopefully not in a PDF that went to the great bit bucket in the sky when my computer died awhile back.
But I digress. As I understand it, each of the 3E schools of magic fits into one of those three schools. If the Phaerim are limited like I understand the Netherese were, two schools allowed, blocked from the third, then that could create some interesting speculation. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2012 : 23:09:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
My lord Karsus, I thank you. Though, I must say, your reply has left me suffering from a hint of deja vu.
quote:
Originally posted by Snow
It might be explained when breaking down magic into its subtypes. Perhaps Phaerimm consume certain schools of magic better or prolificly than others. The Sharn Wall was said to be silvery in colour. So perhaps it was a form of strong abjuration magic (which is typically represented as silver in tone/colour). And I would think consuming abjuration magic would be the most difficult compared to enchantment, evocation, conjuration, etc. Due to its warding/defensive properties in general.
This theory kind of intrigues me. I'd like to understand any objections to it, if any. I'm working on a Campaign where the very nature of Magic is a key element, and this could shape things rather colourfuly if it holds water under criticism.
As I understand, the Netherese separated magic thusly:
Invention, Mentalism, Variation
I can't find my sources for that offhand. Hopefully not in a PDF that went to the great bit bucket in the sky when my computer died awhile back.
But I digress. As I understand it, each of the 3E schools of magic fits into one of those three schools. If the Phaerim are limited like I understand the Netherese were, two schools allowed, blocked from the third, then that could create some interesting speculation.
Let me do some research first, and then I'll look at your argument form a logical stand point. I'd first like to check it from a logical standpoint, then go to a lore standpoint. I'll give you my most honest opinion, as always, and if I find something that doesn't fit, I'll exercise proper manners in delivery. Work for you? |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1272 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2012 : 23:15:09
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That works for me! Thanks, Sightless.
As far as Sharn Magic that Lord Karsus mentioned, I like the possibility that the Sharn have their own style of magic, I would be interested in any lore/mechanical theories that expand on that.
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- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1730 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2012 : 02:02:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Snow
I'm still giving credit to my original theory ... in that the Phaerimm do indeed consume magic ... but it has not been stated which types, subtypes, schools or "flavors" of magic they can consume or prefer to consume. We just don't have that specific information available to us. Incarnum & Psionic alt-magic may factor into this, but I have a feeling it comes down to schools subtypes of magic.
I agree that Mr. Schend should be consulted on this for details.
I'm loathe to get involved in this discussion for two reasons:
1) I'm not as up on either sharn or phaerimm lore as I've been in the past; and
2) The mechanics and specifics of why something does/n't work rarely interest me as much as the story potential of the idea.
Thus (and mainly because of #2), I doubt I can give an answer that'll satisfy all tastes.
That said, here's my two bits from an addled, exhausted, and disinterested in rules specifics brain:
We have two givens in the equation:
The sharn wall did get breached at times but rarely in totality;
The phaerimm were apparently unable to broach it save with outside help 80% of the time (at least in my memory...or at least in my own works with said structure).
Here's my theory which works at least a bit with the above:
The Sharn Wall was made up of unique magics in the sense that it was an unheard of before/since mix of Elven High Magics and lost Art of Centaurs, Dwarves, Dragons, and a number of other critters that made up the Sharn that helped bulwark the phaerimm behind it.
If that's not enough of a handwave to explain things to players, how about the phaerimm could eat/consume some of the magic, but its very chaotic/unique nature either destroyed the phaerimm or drove the phaerimm insane and specifically drove them against each other when they did consume any of said magic and survive such consumption.
The amount they'd need to absorb to trigger the paranoid/insanity effect was minimal and not enough to form a breach; either a singular or multiple phaerimm absorbing enough to form a breach would make them all explode spectacularly...and said wild unleashed magics should/would have simply reformed the Sharn Wall at said breach.
At least, this is the sort of theory I'd keep in mind were I needing to address this issue in my game campaign or a novel about the matter.
Steven
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For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4216 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2012 : 02:08:38
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| That answer kicks arse! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2012 : 02:58:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
As far as Sharn Magic that Lord Karsus mentioned, I like the possibility that the Sharn have their own style of magic, I would be interested in any lore/mechanical theories that expand on that.
-It'd certainly have a connection to chaos. I was being slightly tongue-in-cheek, though: I don't actually think that it was anything otherwise unseen before, as in a unique subtype of magic or anything like that. It was simply Sharn using magic; Sharn magic. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 09 Jun 2012 02:59:45 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2012 : 04:02:20
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If its not Shadow energy, and it can't possibly be Arcane energy, then it should be psionic energy (the only other real energy in D&D - everything else are just flavors off of those. I was going to say divine magic, but I think divine magic (the actual power of deities themselves, NOT the spells they give mortals) is a form of super-psionics. In order to use that level of power, you have to be a god, or something approaching one - I think the Sharn's very unique nature qualifies.
Plus any energy/creature/etc that drives something nuts has to be psionic - it all goes back to Cthulhu. 
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It is explicitly stated that Shar created the Shadow Weave, from the spaces within the Weave. This doesn't mean that she grabbed an errant half of something that already existed, it means she created something new from where there was nothing.
Okay, gotcha.
There were two parts to the weave - the 'solid' (Arcane) part, and the spaces - so she grabbed the 'spaces' half? Thanks for confirming what I thought.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's also explicitly stated that Mystra limited mages, after Karsus. Not that it was an accident, but that it was a deliberate Ban.
This contradicts what is said in RotAW, but on the other hand, the info presented in those parts is by Shadovar and an Elf battling his Shadow (so he is convincing himself of all sorts of stuff). So it contradicts the information which may not be entirely accurate (which means it may not contradict at all).
In fact, I just read that part last night - it was really only a theory Gaelaron was worried about - that Shadovar are far more powerful then Faerunian mages. Although that might be true in general, it doesn't make his theory accurate.
Either way, it is canon that magic became nerfed after Mystryl's fall. The reasons for that have changed and shifted several times. I just think Troy Denning was on a the right track with 'whole' magic (which implies neither Arcane or Shadow magic are whole).
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And Shar didn't put limitations on the Shadow Weave because the Shadow Weave is a shadow of the existing Weave, and because the shadow of something can't be more than that which it is a shadow of. The Shadow Weave is, by its inherent nature, less than the Weave. This, too, is canon.
Half of something is not less then the other half - then it would only be a fragment (not half). It is a canon fact that Mystryl's energy was TWO HALVES from two different goddesses, combined into one being/Weave (thus making magic 'whole', as per the novels).
I don't know who wrote that canon your quoting, but they don't understand math. According to the creation myths, Mystryl is composed of two equal parts of energy. 'Shadow energy' is not literally a shadow - thats just a mortal way of describing the 'dark energy'. To say Shar's energy is a mere Shadow of Selune's energy is patently ridiculous (especially considering who is more important).
Ed needs to teach some of these guys a course in FR-101. No wonder we have these canon debates going around in circles.
On the other hand, shadow needs light to exist, not the other way around. The only problem with that is that then Shadow energy should be the 'whole' magic, not one half. Shadow stands at the mid-point between light and darkness (and 'pure dark' is just as damaging to shadow as light - it needs both).
I think they broke FR - my head hurts. Anyhow, I still think the Sharnwall used some sort of uber-psionics. Whether you want to say its a type of magic or not is irrelevant. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Jun 2012 04:13:09 |
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The Sharn Wall
