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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Jun 2012 : 05:12:43
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Errtu's layer of the Abyss (Errtunia?  ), where Wulfgar spent some 5 1/2 years being constantly taunted, humiliated, tortured, maimed, murdered, resurrected, and then forced to endure the cycle all over again.
RAS's descriptions of these times in Passage to Dawn and The Silent Blade are rare, especially dark scenes in his works, complete with needles in eyes, castration by mallet and anvil, the demonic eating of his children with Catti-brie, and witnessing her transform into a succubus, all the while surrounded by an endless squishing, foul-smelling ooze of slime, muck, excrement, and offal. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4258 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2012 : 05:27:51
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| Strictly speaking psychologically; the human mind can come to grips with horrid tortures and survive through them...but a lack of stimuli all together will cause the mind to wither and become insane...often without hope of repair. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2012 : 05:48:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Strictly speaking psychologically; the human mind can come to grips with horrid tortures and survive through them...but a lack of stimuli all together will cause the mind to wither and become insane...often without hope of repair.
I've heard that a lack of stimuli will do that... that's why I described my most horrible prison! |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4258 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2012 : 06:28:35
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| That is why I said "Void"...there is nothing there but YOU...and you can't even see yourself. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2012 : 08:18:12
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I remember a scene in Hunter x Hunter where Kororo trapped an assassin in some sort of a dimensional prison where the captive was held immobile by an invisible force, and where a strange fish-like creature ate him bit by bit. The victim could not see blood nor feel pain, but seeing his body disappear part by part rendered him insane---right before he was completely devoured. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2012 : 20:53:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Strictly speaking psychologically; the human mind can come to grips with horrid tortures and survive through them...but a lack of stimuli all together will cause the mind to wither and become insane...often without hope of repair.
It depends on the individual's ability to think in the abstract. Can you disconnect yourself from your sensations and focus on your inner sense of self, independent of whatever feedback you might be getting from the outside? If you can disregard external torture, then you should be able to disregard an external void. One is excrutiating pain! The other is not excrutiating at all--just empty.
Are you needy of external validation and reinforcement? Are you incapable of providing that to yourself? If not, then a void will get to you.
But if you can disregard the extremity of constant torture, then you should be able to tackle the lesser evil of nothingness.
I wonder, which would be worse, though: overbearing pain, or loneliness and grief from being disconnected?
I think the pain would be worse. I can deal with loneliness and isolation. But I hate pain! |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4258 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2012 : 21:11:31
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Strictly speaking psychologically; the human mind can come to grips with horrid tortures and survive through them...but a lack of stimuli all together will cause the mind to wither and become insane...often without hope of repair.
It depends on the individual's ability to think in the abstract. Can you disconnect yourself from your sensations and focus on your inner sense of self, independent of whatever feedback you might be getting from the outside? If you can disregard external torture, then you should be able to disregard an external void. One is excrutiating pain! The other is not excrutiating at all--just empty.
Are you needy of external validation and reinforcement? Are you incapable of providing that to yourself? If not, then a void will get to you.
But if you can disregard the extremity of constant torture, then you should be able to tackle the lesser evil of nothingness.
I wonder, which would be worse, though: overbearing pain, or loneliness and grief from being disconnected?
I think the pain would be worse. I can deal with loneliness and isolation. But I hate pain!
Sorry Beast, I'll disagree with you all day on this. All of my professors would too.
The human mind NEEDS stimuli. Without it, it will atrophy and eventually insanity (of various sorts) WILL set in. There is a very good reason prisoners fear "The Hole" in any sort of prison that uses extended isolation.
It is actually something I studied in detail, my focus in psychology was criminal psychology coupled with organizational psyche as well. Humans NEED interaction with other living beings...and will even make fictional friends to keep them company when in isolation (remember Tom Hanks and his ball friend?).
What our body does not use, it begins to get rid of...and that includes the brain. Once too much of the brain is gone, insanity is the only outcome; if not outright death. There have obviously been no studies of such extremes as it would include the death of human beings.
Hermits in the hills or prisoners in isolation often result in the same thing: a loss of normal scope in mental faculties. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2012 : 03:31:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
The human mind NEEDS stimuli. Without it, it will atrophy and eventually insanity (of various sorts) WILL set in.
What is needed is a direct comparison of the rates of insanity that come from constant direct abuse versus prolonged isolation. Which is faster and/or more severe: the mental trauma from acute abuse, or the insanity from isolation?
You mentioned that the mind can deal with torture. What is it that accomplishes this?
And why do you then turn around and imply that the mind cannot similarly cope with isolation?
Mental coping mechanisms for various sorts of unpleasantness exist, don't they? The human mind is not only equipped to cope with one sort of unpleasantness, right?
I never disagreed that the isolation is bad. I just said that I feel that I would be better equipped to weather that sort of storm than a torturous one. I don't do pain. It's much harder for me to block that out, or endure it stoically, than for me to be lackadaisical and existentialist about being alone and cut-off from others. (Just recently in the "Server Problems" scroll, I at first confessed that I didn't like being denied access to the 'Keep, but then I quickly shrugged it off and rationalized it to myself. I assure you that I would not have been so affable if I had also, say, been treated to an electrical shock through my laptop when I was rejected that day!  )
quote:
There is a very good reason prisoners fear "The Hole" in any sort of prison that uses extended isolation.
Most serious criminals/prisoners are not known for their ability to think in the abstract, or to forego immediate sensation and gratification. A lot of what drives them to commit their crimes in the first place is an intense need for immediate gratification coupled with poor impulse control. So it's understandable that they would not do well in total isolation.
quote:
Humans NEED interaction with other living beings...and will even make fictional friends to keep them company when in isolation (remember Tom Hanks and his ball friend?).
You seem to be contradicting yourself, here, or at least undermining yourself. If humans need interaction with other living beings, then why do they make up fictional beings? Fictional beings are not living beings.
Humans need something to keep their minds actively engaged and occupied. For most, that means actual living beings and activities. But for some, abstract higher thought can suffice. For some, that sort of thought can serve as a substitute or replacement suppressing focus on more immediate experiences.
Tom Hanks successfully substituted his imaginary ideas about Wilson in place of the reality of his painful isolation. He thought in the abstract, and that got him through the dreariness.
That supports my contention, DD--not yours. 
quote:
What our body does not use, it begins to get rid of...and that includes the brain. Once too much of the brain is gone, insanity is the only outcome; if not outright death.
Right, but immediately, directly, actively experiencing material sensorial feedback is not the only way for the brain to be in use. The brain can also be in use by engaging in abstract thought. In fact, the human brain is notable in its capacity for more than simply coordinating and perceiving physiological processes.
But the relative strength of people's ability to think in the abstract varies widely, though.
I still wonder which messed more people up more thoroughly: acute torture, or prolonged isolation. Which do more people succumb to more easily, and which do more people resist more successfully? |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4258 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2012 : 04:00:01
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I'm not one to mince words about my profession; so I'll simply let you read a few things:
http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/1898
http://www.nature.com/tp/journal/v2/n5/full/tp201236a.html
Those can lead you to other informative links detailing what I'm talking about.
To sum up though:
When the brain ceases to get external stimulus, it begins essentially to produce its own. These totally random internal nervous stimuli are the causes for Hallucination, various Phobias, Paranoia in general...and can very easily result in suicide.
Now, to be perfectly fair, most of these studies either use lab animals or prisoners...and so may not truly apply to the average citizen who is not likely to go through such extreme isolation to help a study...but there have been some studies done on humanity in less than ideal nations that I won't get into mentioning here.
However, since we are talking about getting "locked up" I thought my view on the matter...backed by the psychology of the criminal mind that I have studied...is both accurate and honestly undeniable.
Your personal opinion aside, science fact is science fact.
EDIT: and before anyone says there is no such thing as science fact...then your facts are wrong. Water flows downhill naturally and all that.
To address your question on how people "defeat" torture:
Torture is an external stimulus, and so allows a mind to actively focus on that torture...which most often prevents the occurance of random firings within the brain that someone in isolation might experience.
Someone left in isolation long enough will actually demonstrate similar neural patterns to those undergoing torture...but also be experiencing many other neural traumas that can't be caused by torture. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 11 Jun 2012 04:04:05 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2012 : 04:05:53
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Okay, folks, we seem to be deviating a little too much from discussing the Realms.
Thus, I must ask those scribes who are currently participating in this most recent bout of off-topicness, to instead redirect it toward other communication channels, like PM's or emails, perhaps.
Thank you.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4258 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2012 : 04:50:21
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The Black Pits of Tlindhet
Deep beneath the surface of the land of Dambrath, there exists Tlindhet; the Drow city that conquered the proud men of Dambrath long ago. Within this city which is much akin to others of its ilk; is a monument of fiendish evil designed by the summoned "Fiend Scion" named Zal-Kaeth.
Those who are of noble birth which shame their family are not simply slain out of hand in Tlindhet; the Drow of this place have far too many foes near at hand to simply allow their ranks to be whittled away through internal strife. No, instead a far worse fate was designed for the Matrons of this place by the powerful Cambion Zal-Kaeth. Long in service as a mercenary to the Drow Goddess Lolth, Zal-Kaeth is a powerful warrior, priest and wizard...his design is a suitable punishment for those that may be needed in the future.
Zal-Kaeth takes simple payment from the Matrons to "store" anyone they wish to give into his hands. This payment is invariably different each time, usually dependent upon the current needs of the dreaded Fiend Scion who walks freely within the Black Pits; but it can be simple coins or even sacrifices to be bled dry on his dark altar.
A massive iron cube, summoned by the might of Zal-Kaeth, sits upon the roof of Tlindhet's cavernous ceiling far away from the mighty houses...secured tightly by arcane means high above the slums of Tlindhet's slave quarter. This monument has but one hole within it, directly in the center of the fifty foot by fifty foot "base" which looms over the slums below. Those who entere this hole, without a deal being struck with Zal-Kaeth, have never returned. The massive armored Cambion meets a contact within the slums to take possession of his charge and then levitates into the hole which closes behind him.
What the Matrons have yet to learn is that the Black Pits are not a common prison; but one of hellish nightmare. For the Drow, to be a pariah is worse than death; but in the Black Pits they are not only a pariah, but worse.
Zal-Kaeth uses a simple spell of Stasis on each of his prisoners; but allows them to be totally aware of their surroundings via sight alone. He places them in deep black pits of utter darkness, in which writhe fiendish vermin which continually crawl upon the prisoner. These vermin are in truth writhing masses of Larvae that Zal-Kaeth brings to Faerun to experiment upon. Ensuring that he sticks absolutely to the letter of the agreement, the Fiend Scion sometimes removes a prisoner from stasis to experiment on them before returning them to their frozen state.
His Cell Wardens are actually hardened cambion warriors removed from the trials of the Abyss and brought to the Prime to work for their "War Duke" Zal-Kaeth. These bloodthirsty beasts are often given liberties with prisoners (as might be allowed within the print of any agreement not thought out clearly by a Matron), and so some few prisoners have even given birth to fiendish scions of the Abyss while prisoner within the Black Pits.
The end goal of Zal-Kaeth, unknown to anyone but those reading this (as well as his father Dalor Darden) is to breed a strike force to use against the Drow of Tlindhet! Through his fiendish experiments and the simple Stasis imprisonment the Drow here suffer, they are quickly becoming insane and monstrous as well. When the time is right, the cube will fall from the ceiling into the slums and a powerful force will emerge in a writhing swarm to bathe in a bloody bath of carnage...prior to the Black Arch-Mage attacking the city in force as well. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2012 : 05:23:15
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Undermountain. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2012 : 12:28:59
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Detention Block AA-23, on the first Death Star.
An unlucky few have the dubious honor of being tortured by Darth Vader himself and their mangled remains are eaten by dianoga. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2012 : 05:43:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
Undermountain.
It used to be horrible when Halaster was still around. These days, not so much... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
735 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2012 : 07:44:52
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Volothamp Geddarm's kitchen, where the prison uniform is a fake beard and black beret.
You, what with every mage in Faerûn gunning for him... |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2012 : 15:18:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
Undermountain.
It used to be horrible when Halaster was still around. These days, not so much...
Who says that he is gone?
Not in my Realms... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2012 : 00:46:17
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Oh well, didn't Ed (subtly) hint on Halaster's return...? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2012 : 13:52:58
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| How could he die that easily, i find it so strange just killing him off like that, epic spell duels or something, at least better than trying some ritual which did not even manifest anything at all, except his image in mage's minds... |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2012 : 07:43:36
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He was in Hell. I think that's more than enough explanation. Even The Simbul barely survived. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4258 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2012 : 12:23:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
He was in Hell. I think that's more than enough explanation. Even The Simbul barely survived.
Who was in Hell? Halaster tried his ritual in Undermountain I thought? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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smerwin29
Acolyte
USA
32 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2012 : 13:13:36
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| If my research was correct, Halaster was in Hell during the events of the novel "Elminster in Hell." Three years later, Elminster's ritual (and his apparent death) took place in Undermountain. What state he is in now is an issue I have been skirting in my design work, so I cannot wait to see if there is any further resolution. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2012 : 01:47:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
He was in Hell. I think that's more than enough explanation. Even The Simbul barely survived.
Who was in Hell? Halaster tried his ritual in Undermountain I thought?
He attempted to perform a powerful ritual in Undermountain and died, true. But his madness was more to blame for that. And such madness had been amplified after being infused with so much magic by Mystra herself and after exposing himself to the cancerous energy of Avernus in the foolish attempt to save the doddering Old Sage. [Mystra 'cured' him, but 'twas only temporary. The pronounced madness, it seemed, could not be healed by divine nor arcane means.] |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 16 Jun 2012 01:47:58 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4258 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2012 : 02:15:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
He was in Hell. I think that's more than enough explanation. Even The Simbul barely survived.
Who was in Hell? Halaster tried his ritual in Undermountain I thought?
He attempted to perform a powerful ritual in Undermountain and died, true. But his madness was more to blame for that. And such madness had been amplified after being infused with so much magic by Mystra herself and after exposing himself to the cancerous energy of Avernus in the foolish attempt to save the doddering Old Sage. [Mystra 'cured' him, but 'twas only temporary. The pronounced madness, it seemed, could not be healed by divine nor arcane means.]
Where is it said Halaster's mental state had anything to do with Hell though? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2012 : 04:35:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
He was in Hell. I think that's more than enough explanation. Even The Simbul barely survived.
Who was in Hell? Halaster tried his ritual in Undermountain I thought?
He attempted to perform a powerful ritual in Undermountain and died, true. But his madness was more to blame for that. And such madness had been amplified after being infused with so much magic by Mystra herself and after exposing himself to the cancerous energy of Avernus in the foolish attempt to save the doddering Old Sage. [Mystra 'cured' him, but 'twas only temporary. The pronounced madness, it seemed, could not be healed by divine nor arcane means.]
Where is it said Halaster's mental state had anything to do with Hell though?
I'm wondering about that, myself, especially since Ed said Hally was more stable after that. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2012 : 05:04:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
He was in Hell. I think that's more than enough explanation. Even The Simbul barely survived.
Who was in Hell? Halaster tried his ritual in Undermountain I thought?
He attempted to perform a powerful ritual in Undermountain and died, true. But his madness was more to blame for that. And such madness had been amplified after being infused with so much magic by Mystra herself and after exposing himself to the cancerous energy of Avernus in the foolish attempt to save the doddering Old Sage. [Mystra 'cured' him, but 'twas only temporary. The pronounced madness, it seemed, could not be healed by divine nor arcane means.]
Where is it said Halaster's mental state had anything to do with Hell though?
I'm wondering about that, myself, especially since Ed said Hally was more stable after that.
Indeed. Mystra removed Shar's influence from him. Shar had essentially made him insane because she exposed him to the use of the Shadow Weave and other ways that drove him to the point of becoming mentally unstable.
After Mystra cured him, and up to the time of his death, he was mostly sane. But we also knew that Halaster could slip back into his periods of insanity every now and then... but it was nothing compared to what he experienced before the purging of the influence from Shar. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2012 : 04:32:42
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The Simbul is so powerful and versatile that she could even transform into an inanimate object (spoon, fork, plate...). What if a lesser wizard attempts it (just for the fun of it) and ends up stuck in such form? Imagine being a spoon for the rest of your miserable existence... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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skychrome
Senior Scribe
713 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2012 : 02:24:33
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In the realms: The Depths of Madness as written by ESdB.
In the non realms:
1) The Cube
2) The space ship from Event Horizon
*shivers* |
"You make an intriguing offer, one that is very tempting. It would seem that I have little alternative than to answer thusly: DISINTEGRATE!" Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick 625 |
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slayer
Acolyte
USA
8 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2012 : 12:42:54
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| I hear Pandemonium is nice this time of year! |
"When you get to hell, tell em I sent ya, you'll get a discount" |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2012 : 06:54:53
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Anyone saw the film Lockout? MS-1 looks like a horrible prison. And I don't know which is worse, being put in the casket dreaming your entire life till you die, or being awakened after a couple years only to see yourself become a doddering, insane husk of a person. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 19 Jul 2012 06:55:42 |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2012 : 13:29:24
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| What about the one from the Twilight Zone(new version), I cant remember which episode is it, but its about a guy who killed the man who he had cheated with his wife, and the authorities trapped his mind in a sort of simulation that constantly killed him... |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Topic |
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The Most Horrible Prison
