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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 09 May 2012 : 19:54:31
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Spies are largely underrated. The movers and shakers of the Realms are able to do what they do partly because they have capable spies. When scrying can be countered by magic, what a nosy bastard would need do is send out a spy to get the information he wants…
So what do you think? Having an anthology focusing on the exploits of prominent and new spies would be great, right?
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2012 : 19:56:39
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Yes it would.
Ed's talked about spies (and investigators) in various of his Eye on the Realms articles. Some of those guys would make great characters in novels, methinks. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2012 : 20:08:00
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They don't have to be Harpers or Moonstars, though. The former already enjoyed their own series of novels back in the days... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2012 : 20:09:14
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What are detectives called in the realms? I forget.
Wasn't there an 'intrigues' series? I may be thinking of the Mystery series.
Spies are great, and I think in the Realms they would be more along the lines of modern spies (as portrayed in movies) - they all pretty-much know each other, use each other, and are kinda like 'frenemies'.
The Harpers are mostly a spy-organization, as are the high heralds (and it seems many are members of both groups). What most folks don't realize is harpers usually get others to do their 'dirty work', including pitting their enemies against each other. The harpers in novels are usually the 'lowby' types, who haven't developed enough 'assets' to become the more cerebral type.
The Knights of Myth drannor being an exception - eastern harpers are more overt then their western counterparts. Still, we see evidence of Dove and others becoming patrons of adventuring companies, which further Harper agendas (sometimes unknowingly to that group). The best description of what Harpers are really like is what we see in that introduction-story in Code of the Harpers, which details exactly how they behave from day-to-day.
I think a series of novels based around Cloak & Dagger lore would be pretty excellent. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 May 2012 20:11:25 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2012 : 20:13:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
What are detectives called in the realms? I forget.
Detectives and spies aren't exactly the same.
In the Realms, spies are called just that. And their head is called Master Spy. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2012 : 20:19:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
They don't have to be Harpers or Moonstars, though. The former already enjoyed their own series of novels back in the days...
Good point.
That's another reason why I'd like to see Ed's Eye on the Realms stuff gets developed, since he talks about independent investigators, and spies for nations like Tethyr, as opposed to Harpers and members of the Moonstarts (though he did cover Harpers in some detail in one article).
EDIT: Highknights of Cormyr are spies too. I'd like to see this theoretical anthology talk about them. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 09 May 2012 20:22:00 |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2012 : 20:25:19
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| I think this would be a great anthology as long as it didn't center around the Harpers. Personally I would enjoy having most of the tales told from the evil spies point of view. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2012 : 20:37:31
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I'd like it if this anthology delved into the differences between spy networks.
For nations, how is Cormyr different then Amn or Tethyr, for example?
What about city states like Waterdeep and Westgate?
Seems like there's lots of non-RSE story potential there as well as potential for a boatload of new Realmslore. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2012 : 20:38:31
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I KNOW detectives and spies aren't the same thing - they just came to mind (because of the similarity in their info-gathering), and I was wondering what the Realms term was (because I recall Ed providing one, IIRC).
In my world, detectives are called 'Inquisitors', and are normally sponsored by the church (yes... I know... how original... NOT).
I also think a purely Realms-term for spies would be cool.
"The names Thann... Danilo Thann. I'll take my Elverquist shaken, not stirred."  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 May 2012 20:39:48 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2012 : 21:01:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
I'd like it if this anthology delved into the differences between spy networks.
For nations, how is Cormyr different then Amn or Tethyr, for example?
What about city states like Waterdeep and Westgate?
Seems like there's lots of non-RSE story potential there as well as potential for a boatload of new Realmslore.
Ahem. My next novel, Shadowbane: Eye of Justice, might have something to do with spies.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2012 : 21:02:41
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
I think this would be a great anthology as long as it didn't center around the Harpers. Personally I would enjoy having most of the tales told from the evil spies point of view.
I would enjoy that too. However, as Jeremy noted, I think it would also be interesting to see in the limelight the various spy networks in the Realms.
Spies vs spies... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2012 : 21:55:58
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| I heartily second this after all spies are often mentioned but which novel shows things from their own point of view, whether they be amoral backstabbers or patriotic skulkers. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31796 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2012 : 01:14:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
"The names Thann... Danilo Thann. I'll take my Elverquist shaken, not stirred."
I don't see Danilo as a "James Bong-esque" spy -- but, rather, as a Chuck Bartowski-styled agent of espionage.  |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2012 : 06:43:36
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One book in the series should focus on The Harpers (and I am far from being a Harpers fan), because if you are going to cover all the main groups from different perspectives, you can't just ignore them.
They could focus on the Moonstars and the Harper-schism, for instance (in just one of the books). They should also make it more about intel-gathering and covert ops, unlike other 'swashbuckling' style Harper tales (which would make it very different then the Harper series). Lots of twists and turns, double-crosses and double-agents - that sort of thing.
I think there is one guy who's a member of both the Twisted Rune and the Kraken Society - a story around him would be pretty cool as well. Steven Schend would be the obvious author for that one. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2012 : 04:57:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I think there is one guy who's a member of both the Twisted Rune and the Kraken Society - a story around him would be pretty cool as well. Steven Schend would be the obvious author for that one.
Interesting. Keeping up with the ‘current events’ of the Realms, I’d add my own: a double agent of Thay and Rashemen; another of Thay and the Eminence of Aurant; one more of Rashemen and the EoA; and one of Shade and Cormyr. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2012 : 04:58:21
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To my fellow scribes:
To expand the OP a little, how do you wish the spies to be? Humans that don’t rely on magic, but with decent martial arts skills? Wizards? Non-wizards with no fighting skills but have brilliant minds?
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I'd pick the first. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2012 : 10:42:43
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| I always felt that elves would make excellent spies, what with their natural beauty and charm, skill in magic and access to ancient lore and also their immense patience, which is a quality necessary in any successful spy. Well unless you're James Bond of course. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2012 : 10:48:55
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| Elves used be viewed as arrogant, haughty, generally concerned with their own affairs and disinterested in unnecessary interactions with humans or other "lesser" peoples. The emphasis on their beauty was more on their apparent youth and grace than their supposedly superhuman attractiveness, and audiences used to understand that beautiful things can also be very dangerous, that elves are in the end fey and eldritch creatures who do not behave as humans. Gygax-era elves would be superb spies mostly because of their natural stealth and intuitive command of magic, not because they are just better at every human quality than humans can be. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 15 May 2012 10:51:50 |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2012 : 11:18:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Elves used be viewed as arrogant, haughty, generally concerned with their own affairs and disinterested in unnecessary interactions with humans or other "lesser" peoples. The emphasis on their beauty was more on their apparent youth and grace than their supposedly superhuman attractiveness, and audiences used to understand that beautiful things can also be very dangerous, that elves are in the end fey and eldritch creatures who do not behave as humans. Gygax-era elves would be superb spies mostly because of their natural stealth and intuitive command of magic, not because they are just better at every human quality than humans can be.
True enough but on average your normal elf was considered more attractive than your normal human. Certainly one cant say that elves are the same as humans but if your race has the reputation of being aloof and uninterested in the doings of others then isn't this actually of great advantage to you as a spy. People will let down their guard and say things in front of you which they may not otherwise to give one example.
In our society the more common belief is that if someone looks young and beautiful that they are also foolish and naive. " Dumb blondes" is an good example of that.
In conclusion perhaps your average elf might not make a good spy but then spies are hardly 'average' are they. Perhaps elves of Aryvandaar might have been to haughty to deign to spy on their neighbours but those times are long past, almost all elven kingdoms from Cormanthor to Menzoberranzan make extensive use of spies in order to survive. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2012 : 15:11:57
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It depends, too, on the realm/s where the spy would be doing his job. If you put an elf spy in a realm whose major population consists of humans, then he'd be an obvious target of suspicion. Conversely, if you place a human spy in an elven land, same thing would happen. And as many spies have learned, it's better to wear their true forms than be cloaked in a veil of illusion, which any wizard of sufficient skills could easily counter. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2012 : 15:59:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
To my fellow scribes:
To expand the OP a little, how do you wish the spies to be? Humans that don’t rely on magic, but with decent martial arts skills? Wizards? Non-wizards with no fighting skills but have brilliant minds?
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I'd pick the first.
'Gadgets', a'la James Bond.
Except the gadgets could be magical. They should have little or no magic themselves, but that is a personal preference - I am sure a good spy-tale featuring a Mage could be done.
Nothing too flashy - stuff like crossbows with zip-lines attached to go from building to building - that sort of thing. Maybe a few smoke-powder pellets for flashy distractions or get-aways. A cart with built-in caltrop-drops and maybe even an oil slick, but make it all based on fantasy stuff (for instance, the spy could open a cask of dragonturtle oil and allow it to spill out the back while making his exit - that sort of thing).
Keep the spy theme so we still recognize it, but add a layer of fantasy stuff to whatever is being done or used. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 May 2012 16:00:12 |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2012 : 16:31:00
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My first thought is that the spies ought to be human and non-magic users.
I’d like a book about spies to go into detail about how the Realms works. That is, how the various nations, city states and regions go about their business, with an emphasis on the differences between them.
Those differences are something a good spy ought to know and be able to capitalize on.
Show me the day to day stuff. I don’t want more wizard wars or arcane spell battles. Instead show me how mundane, non-magic using people can control, undercut and manipulate priests, wizards and even monsters of power. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2012 : 20:10:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
My first thought is that the spies ought to be human and non-magic users.
That seems pretty (and strangely) limiting. I think that all that spies really need are some good stealth and/or social skills. Putting race and magical ability restrictions seems irrelevant (and rather pre-3e) to me. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2012 : 20:40:26
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I’m not offering restrictions; I’m just mentioning what comes to mind first, for me, when I think of spies, as well as what interests me most.
When I think of spies and what a spy book might cover, I tend to think of human realms first. I don’t think of elves or dwarves or gnomes. And I don’t think of most spies as having any skill at magic.
They may have knowledge of magic, just no skill at Art.
The Realms is filled with magic, but with so many novels focusing on that I feel like I don’t get to see more of the Realms outside of magic.
As for races, I’m not saying books about dwarves spying on dwarves (for example) aren’t possible or that such might not be interesting.
It just wouldn’t be nearly as interesting to me as a novel about the spies of Tethyr or a novel about Highknights of Cormyr abroad in the greater realms, hunting and watching the foes of Cormyr. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2012 : 12:34:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
It depends, too, on the realm/s where the spy would be doing his job. If you put an elf spy in a realm whose major population consists of humans, then he'd be an obvious target of suspicion. Conversely, if you place a human spy in an elven land, same thing would happen. And as many spies have learned, it's better to wear their true forms than be cloaked in a veil of illusion, which any wizard of sufficient skills could easily counter.
Of course an elven spy in Hillsfar or Sembia would not be of much use unless he or she were pretending to be members of the lower classes and even then not so much. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2012 : 15:34:41
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Same applies to other races. I recall, in Blackstaff Tower, a shade spy in Waterdeep who's covered in spells of illusion was caught by (if I'm not mistaken) Ten-Rings. There are always powerful wizards around, and so a spy will do well if he doesn't bother himself with illusory magic. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Xnella Moonblade-Thann
Learned Scribe
USA
234 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2012 : 16:36:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
"The names Thann... Danilo Thann. I'll take my Elverquist shaken, not stirred."
 But elverquist is known for its powerful kick, and I've heard-tell he can't drink it in one gulp like his partner can.  |
"Sweet water and light laughter until next we meet." - traditional elven farewell
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2012 : 05:00:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
They may have knowledge of magic, just no skill at Art.
I tend to agree. While in nearly all times I'm biased with wizards, I must say it's quite interesting to see them, especially the most powerful of the lot, being outsmart by spies who can't wield magic. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2012 : 07:48:58
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I'd like to see more stuff on noble house spies. I've been reading information about spies found in An Overview of Chondath (on the Bard's Rumors shelf) and it occurred to me there are a ton of spies for pretty much very noble family out there, all over the Realms.
Seems like there would be a handful of really good stories to tell from all those spies doing their work. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Thrasymachus
Learned Scribe
195 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2012 : 23:28:05
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Realms of Spies/Espionage?
I am in for $8... just don't Kindle me please.  |
Former Forgotten Realms brand manager Jim Butler: "Everything that bears the Forgotten Realms logo is considered canon". |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2013 : 04:34:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
I'd like to see more stuff on noble house spies. I've been reading information about spies found in An Overview of Chondath (on the Bard's Rumors shelf) and it occurred to me there are a ton of spies for pretty much very noble family out there, all over the Realms.
Seems like there would be a handful of really good stories to tell from all those spies doing their work.
I second this. What an interesting yarn it'll be.
It would also be fun if the stories are connected to previous novels, like how Dmitra's spies worked to undermine Szass Tam's forces, or how Sembian/Shadovar spies managed to infiltrate Waterdeep. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 04 Jan 2013 04:42:59 |
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Realms of Spies
