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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Jul 2010 : 13:47:42
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In the 2e lands of intrigue it said that the following army broke out of the small teeth in 1370 to lay waste to a part of amn and surrounding:
30.000 kobolds
24.000 goblins
10.000 hobgoblins !!!!!!!!!!!!
4.800 ogres !!!
45 Hill Giants
Assuming these as the fighting strength of the army, there seem to be over 200.000 individuals of these races alone in the small teeth.
This leaves the question how a number as large as this couldbe supported with food during the prep time??
Also, how did they supply their troops during the campaign which was even more dofficult?
I know I am new here and Goblinoids seem to be me only interest but what shall I say....
It is quite reasonably explained from the military side, with the struck alliances etc. but ecological this leaves some question marks for me.
Any ideas?
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2010 : 17:55:44
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@ capnvan,
understood, this is made quite clear regarding thier numbers. But the bigger question is still, how were they fed...
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2010 : 18:32:23
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| With their wounded? Maybe I watched lord of ring too much. |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2010 : 18:44:55
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| good one, but even the toughest ogre will just desert after eating gobbo / kobold stew for several weeks |
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Corwyn the Errant
Acolyte
USA
16 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2010 : 19:54:39
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Hmm, good question. Beforehand, it would be tough. I would imagine the troops would be scattered, off living among their own tribes and clans, and only gathered together just before they march.
Once on the march, it becomes easier: looting villages as you go (plenty of crops and farm animals to carry off), the dead from both sides, especially if you're an ogre and/or not too picky. But almost 70,000 troops are going to be near impossible to be kept fed, even if you factor in magical means (i.e. clerics with create food and water.)
In my campaign, I'd knock a zero off of all those numbers, making the army much easier to manage while still being a considerable threat. That, or split them up into three or four armies, each rampaging through a different area of southern Amn. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2010 : 20:45:15
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But the question was, how did they keep them fed before they went to war.
And I think you touched upon that as well - the army wasn't gathered together until the last possible moment, not just for logistics reasons, but also because an army that size would have been hard as hell to keep under wraps. Secrecy was key to their initial successes, so they must have all converged from all over the south (and perhaps points beyond) only a week or two before hand.
Ergo, scattered reports of small bands of goblinoids and others would have seemed perfectly normal, as they all advanced to the rendezvous point. They probably did so, during that final phase, under the cover of darkness as well.
So those troops would have been foraging as they went, and arrived both fed and probably with a few days supply of rations for themselves. Underdark troops could have procured food in the same manner from the Realms Below.
So there was probably a couple days at most, wherein the folks in-charge would have worried about food, and during that time I would assume the various creatures supplied themselves, from stuff taken along the route. After that, they would have eaten everything in their path, as they marched.
This might also be a good question to ask Steven Schend in his own thread - he may have something to add. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Jul 2010 20:47:33 |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2010 : 21:00:10
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thanks guys, good points from both of you.
though still, some points seem not to be completely clear.
when the troops gathered only in the last moment, this is a movement which could also very hardly kept secret, except as said, they gathered in the underdark.
the feeding in the first days is also quite reasonably explained by you, but what I wonder is, as this war is going on for over three years now, how do they do it by then?
an option could be after taking murann to strike deals with not too picky merchant guilds for food supplies, gold they have obviously enough.
still, the ecology of this new founded empire is difficult to explain, as the war with amnian troops and all kinds of wouldbe adventurers and the like is still going on...
also, they now have to feed the human population of murann which survived the sacking of the town. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6673 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2010 : 23:49:29
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My view would be that yes, they continue to trade foodstuffs through unscrupulous merchants but more likely, they have established huge slave farms utilising the human population of the Amnian cities and towns they have conquered to produce livestock and crops on an ongoing basis. Similarly, there is likely a decent fishing flotilla on the Esmel. Of course, those humans who become aged or infirm ... well, they help ease ration restrictions on a case by case basis also.
One more point, we shouldn't always and necessarily apply "real world" food logistics to the Realms. In at least one "Wyrms of the North" article, Ed gave an insight into how the teeming orc population of the North feeds itself on a subsistence fungus when there's nothing else around. I'm guessing that the Underdark hobgoblins have fed on something similar for centuries and perhaps they have set up 'mushroom' farms throughout the cellars and basements of Murann and other settlements to go with the other stuff.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2010 : 09:30:11
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Well, after reading some realmslosre ( april 2000, about Goblin deities ) I think I found the source for the high number of Hobgoblin troops.
The Kingdom of Holorarar belongs to Hobbos since 349 before DR, and has since then been ruled bythe worshippers of nomog geaya.
It states that these well trained armies ( yes, plural ) are feared in the underdark afar.
Considering the existance time of roughly 1600 years, and the high fertility rate of hobbos, it should be quite easy to sell out a mercenary force of 10.000 to some ambitious and rich Ogre mages, especially when there is a lot of carnage and bloodshed involved - Nomog-Geaya amongst all hobbo deities has a fable for it.
This would THEN also explain how a force of this size could move into the small teeth quite fast and without major logistical issues, since there could also have been a deal struck with the Holorarar Hobbos for supplies etc.
Eventually also a decisive number of Goblin / kobold slaves as cannon fodder.
What do you guys think? |
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Snotlord
Senior Scribe
Norway
476 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2010 : 23:23:42
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| Keep in mind that the 3e team changed the Faerun population numbers, so comparing an 2e army with a 3e nation would give a skewed impression. |
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rjfras
Learned Scribe
261 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2010 : 01:52:12
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| They also didn't march as one army. they split up and went in different directions, each ogre magi leading their troops. |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2013 : 21:46:29
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Just found this in Underdark 3.5, page 141
Holorarar
The “forgotten” subkingdom of Deep Shanatar, Holorarar was
formed after the fall of Barakuir to keep the number of
subkingdoms at eight. This realm quickly became a trading
hub for the whole overkingdom, but it possessed little mineral
wealth and never quite found its heart as a separate entity.
Holorarar dissipated when Deep Shanatar finally fell apart after
the Kin Clashes.
For some centuries now, Holorarar has been held by various
tribes of hobgoblins and other goblinoids. Dozens of tribes, each
numbering thousands of hobgoblin warriors, feud constantly
with each other in the deeps of this kingdom. From time to time,
a powerful chieftain manages to unite the goblinoids briefly
with promises of pillaging the nearby surface lands of Tethyr
and Calimshan, but such alliances never hold for long.
"dozens of tribes, each numbering thousands of Hobgoblin warriors" - man this is a view I would love to have.
- but coming to the sythilisians: it explains where they can get that number of hobgoblins, and eventually also how they are fed - these numbers of hobgoblins, and these are just hobgoblin numbers given, not including goblins etc.etc. must also be fed.
which throws up the question:
How big was Holorarar and what was their main source of food - eventually the goblinoids use it up to today.
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4690 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2013 : 22:35:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakuta Khan
which throws up the question:
How big was Holorarar and what was their main source of food - eventually the goblinoids use it up to today.
Well a surface realm I built had a radius of 15 miles to support 70,000 mostly adult humans with 30,000 children of the families and 30,000 beasts of burden (Horse and OX). Getting rid of the animals clearly reduces size greatly, eliminating pasture and grain fields to feed them results in an area of about 10.5 miles radius. This of course is level ground. All in all not that much area for a city with food sources. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2013 : 09:11:04
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I get a bit confused now about Holorarar as it is today.
i have red the above article, and in another book, I think dwarves deep, it is written that it is a mighty kingdom of Hobgoblins, with Huge military parades and temples etc.
Would love some more lore about this kingdom in gerenal.
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Sythillisian empire
