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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
 Posted - 07 May 2012 : 01:01:27
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Hi...
I had a discussion with one of my players the other night. They encountered a yuan-ti pureblood sorcerer, with SR 18. Now this one player is a dread necromancer and he wanted to use his charnel touch through his spectral hand spell. I said that SR applies, but he said no. Unable to find it at the moment I had my way.
Can anyone shed some light... Are the negative energies of a Dread Necromancer indeed subject to SR???
The same question goes to the Death Touch necromancy feat.
Thanks
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4438 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2012 : 01:25:31
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| General idea is that Supernatural effects aren't subject to Spell Resistance. What ability is it? |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2012 : 02:27:35
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3.5 SRD
quote:
Necromancy
Most of these spells alter the target creature’s life force and are subject to spell resistance. Unusual necromancy spells that don’t affect other creatures directly are not subject to spell resistance.
The case cited was a spell SR should apply.
As to Death Touch, could not find a good write up on it yet, in my opinion is a spell like ability that SR likely would apply. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 07 May 2012 04:41:52 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4438 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2012 : 04:19:29
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While the effect of a Charnel Touch is necromantic, it's delivery system is Supernatural. To go by the SRD:
quote:
Originally quoted from the SRD
Supernatural Abilities (Su)
Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic.
Additionally the spell Spectral Hand is not subject to Spell Resistance as per the SRD and thus, cannot be ruled that it's use in conjunction with Charnal Touch could be affected by a creatures Spell Resistance.
Hope this helps.
EDIT: BTW, couldn't find information on the feat Death Touch, so I'm assuming you mean the cleric's Death Domain feature, which is also a Supernatural ability and works like Charnal Touch. |
Edited by - Diffan on 07 May 2012 04:21:00 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2012 : 04:30:21
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quote:
Necromancy
Most of these spells alter the target creature’s life force and are subject to spell resistance. Unusual necromancy spells that don’t affect other creatures directly are not subject to spell resistance.
*blink*
Something is wrong here. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4438 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2012 : 04:39:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Necromancy
Most of these spells alter the target creature’s life force and are subject to spell resistance. Unusual necromancy spells that don’t affect other creatures directly are not subject to spell resistance.
*blink*
Something is wrong here.
I don't see a problem. The necromancy passage you posted mentions spells, something Charnel Touch nor the cleric's Death Domain feature Death Touch actually are. Had they been Spell-Like Abilities or drawn from a spell-list, then there's a great chance they'd be subject to Spell Resistance. But since both abilities are Supernatural in nature, they bypass SR. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2012 : 04:48:25
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Well looking a little more, "spectral hand spell" does not attack at all just increases the reach of the caster of the spell. So indeed SR would not apply to the "hand" it though should apply to spells cast from the hand.
I am not sure where "Charnel Touch" entered the discussion, however that sounds like a touch success.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4438 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2012 : 05:16:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Well looking a little more, "spectral hand spell" does not attack at all just increases the reach of the caster of the spell. So indeed SR would not apply to the "hand" it though should apply to spells cast from the hand.
I am not sure where "Charnel Touch" entered the discussion, however that sounds like a touch success.
Nicolai said that the player wanted to use the Dread Necromancer's ability Charnal Touch:
Charnel-Touch (Su): Negative energy flows through a dread necromancer’s body, concentrating in her hands. At will (as a standard action), but no more than once per round, she can make a melee touch attack against a living foe that deals 1d8 points of damage, +1 per four class levels. This touch heals undead creatures, restoring 1 hit point per touch, +1 per four class levels.
A dread necromancer can use the spectral hand spell to deliver this attack from a distance.
The effect is necromantic yet is Supernatural in it's delevey and thus follows the Supernatural rules. Now, if the same Dread Necromancer were to cast a spell (like Inflict Serious Wounds) and use Spectral Hand to delever the attack, it would indeed require a Spell Resistance check.
Basically Charnel Touch and Death Touch (Death domain) are way of dealing damage with spell-ish effects and by passing Spell Resistance in the process. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2012 : 05:50:31
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| I concede, the rules are still broken. Only chance to aviod is killing the hand before casting or have high AC to make touch attack fail *sighs* |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Rhewtani
Senior Scribe
USA
508 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2012 : 23:16:28
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| How is 1d8+4 damage 1/round as a ranged touch attack broken? |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4438 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2012 : 04:18:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Rhewtani
How is 1d8+4 damage 1/round as a ranged touch attack broken?
You forgot "at 20th level" too. Really, I don't find anything wrong with it because the ability is so heavily underpowered that it's basically a non-option at high/epic levels of play. Even if the attack was 1d8+1 damage plus +1 point of damage/per level (topping at 1d8+20 at 20th) at-will, it would still be a "meh" option at high levels.
Same problems lie with the Death Touch domain ability:
Death Touch (Su): You may use a death touch once per day. Your death touch is a supernatural ability that produces a death effect. You must succeed on a melee touch attack against a living creature (using the rules for touch spells). When you touch, roll 1d6 per cleric level you possess. If the total at least equals the creature’s current hit points, it dies (no save).
Now, what's the problem with this ability? For one, it's really only applicable at low levels (great in an E6 game, not so great at 14th level). Why? Because it uses a die mechanic (d6's) per cleric level, thus NO Prestige Classing unless it specifically says it allows you to maintain the abilities of your domains. Furthermore, what if after the cleric rolls all those die and it doesn't top out the monster? Nothing happens. It doesn't take it as damage, it doesn't do anything if the effect isn't death.
This seems like one of those "Wow, this looks AWESOME!" effects but in actual usage, falls far under it's appreciation. Same thing was mentioned when the Warlock first debued "ZOMG! A spellcaster who can shoot unlimited Eldritch Bolts?!?! No way, that's ridiculously broken." And really, it turns out that the class's ability is very "meh", as everyone resistant to it or it's effects and it doesn't work that great. They'd be better served as a Rogue/Wizard/Spellwarp Sniper to get even better effects.
EDIT: That last bit about Eldritch Blast was in no way directed at you Kentinal, but at the large outcry of people against a class that wasn't very good mechanically (but just couldn't see it). |
Edited by - Diffan on 08 May 2012 04:21:51 |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2012 : 09:12:43
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The Dreadnecromancedr in our party has taken the Necromantic feat, from: Necromancy, Beyond the Grave supliment. Where the death touch is a standard action. Usable once per round.
And I agree. Charnel Touch is going to fade away in power compared to level! |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2012 : 15:53:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
This seems like one of those "Wow, this looks AWESOME!" effects but in actual usage, falls far under it's appreciation. Same thing was mentioned when the Warlock first debued "ZOMG! A spellcaster who can shoot unlimited Eldritch Bolts?!?! No way, that's ridiculously broken." And really, it turns out that the class's ability is very "meh", as everyone resistant to it or it's effects and it doesn't work that great. They'd be better served as a Rogue/Wizard/Spellwarp Sniper to get even better effects.
BTW I find that warlocks are extremely reliable at high level, when most monsters have high AC/ST/SR, but low touch AC and resistance to acid is rare (vitrolic blast ignore SR but deals acid damage). They are average but very steady and can end up being the highest damage dealers in certain high level encounters.
My current warlock is Warlock 14/ Hellfire Warlock 1 with the shade template.
Back to topic, I too fail to see how the negative energy touch ability is broken, and Supernatural abilities never allow for a SR check.
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Edited by - Kilvan on 08 May 2012 15:54:39 |
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Supernatural abilities
