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Arzakon
Seeker
Spain
58 Posts |
 Posted - 03 May 2012 : 12:06:51
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Hi, recently I was working with Lord of Darkness book (3rd edition Faerun) for a game I'm currently running. I've got my eye on Telamont Tanthul and the shadovar, and I have a question regarding template rules. LoD says Telamont is an aged archwizard who is considering becoming an undead to cheat death. Shades are outsiders from the shadow plane, they have their own template, and there are plenty undead templates (from vampires to liches) who are, obviously, undead regarding the type of creature.
So let's assume any shade (not just Telamont) decided to achieve lichdom, as most evil spellcasters actually do. What would be the type of creature after that? Outsider, undead or a mix of sorts (if that is even possible)?
Thanks for any response : ).
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2012 : 20:38:43
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-I'm not sure if there are official rules stating it, but I believe that newer layers "overwrite" older ones. That's why Dragons, who would otherwise have the 'Dragon' typing, become 'Undead' when they become Dracoliches.
-Looking at Shades specifically, I would say that their type becomes 'Undead' upon Lichdom. Just like they gave up their complete Humanity when they became Shades, they'd give up their complete "Outsiderness" when they become Liches. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2012 : 12:22:19
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Shades aren't actually undead, but they aren't entirely dissimilar either. The souls of undead are linked directly to the essence of the Negative Energy Plane (Negative Material Plane, Void), the power source fueling their existence. The souls of shades are infused or merged with the essence of the Demiplane of Shadow (Shadowfell), which is itself partially related or proximate with the Negative Energy Plane. The souls of liches are contained within special phylacteries or other magical receptacles, again invariably linked in some tangential fashion to the Negative Energy Plane. It should be pointed out that many (or most) of those undergoing the transformation, voluntarily or otherwise, into shades or undead or liches do not survive the experience: their bodies, souls, and minds are warped or extinguished, usually ceasing their existence instantly, sometimes making these incomplete insane individuals languish indefinitely, a few hours or days, an eternity.
I personally feel that undead (say, vampires) shouldn't be able to become shades; they have no living soul to surrender. While shades shouldn't be able to become undead; their unliving souls are permeated with undying shadowstuff, hidden in shadows even death cannot reach. Therefore, mixing undead and shade templates is basically impossible, aside from in the most extraordinary combinations of exceptional circumstances.
Of course, having said that, it has been observed that Telamont is no ordinary shade. He's deeper, darker, more profoundly impenetrable, shadowy even to the eyes of other shades. It has been observed before that he seems like something of a shade-lich or arch-shade - I think compatible with my above opinion since Telamont is definitely exceptional and extraordinary. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Arzakon
Seeker
Spain
58 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2012 : 12:44:30
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First of all, thanks for your responses : ). They've been quite helpful.
Still, there are some things that I do not understand. In Lords of Darkness (page 82, spanish version, sorry about that), it says that shades actually die from old age, even if they're somewhat related to the shadow plane, negative energies and so on. It literally says that shades have a larger lifespan than humans, yet they still die of old. Telamont has been sustaining his body through the use and abuse of wish spells, but, again, it literally says his outsider body is beginning to fail, and as Tultanthar is back in Faerūn, he's thinking about becoming an undead, although the book does not give an specific kind of undead.
I think your reasoning is quite good, but LoD states otherwise. Being and outsider is not the same as being dead, even if they're from the shadow plane or from the negative energy plane. As far as I can remember, there are many outsiders who became undead, like the Lich Queen of the githyanki, for example. It's a bit confusing, because I understand that "outsider" is somewhat generic, and an outsider from Celestia is not the same as and outsider from the negative energy plane.
Maybe I should not bother with these kind of things and keep on with common shades.
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Edited by - Arzakon on 04 May 2012 14:01:32 |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2012 : 13:22:08
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| I would simply just ad the "lich" template to the base creature. In this case Telemond. That would make him über bad, but so what. he is über bad as it is! |
Edited by - Nicolai Withander on 04 May 2012 13:22:45 |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2012 : 13:54:36
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I think LK is right, undead would be the only type for such a creature. The outsider type would be lost, like for dracoliches.
Githyankis are not outsiders, they are humanoids IIRC. Outsiders much have an inherent link to their plane, like Tanar'ris and the Abyss, efreetis and the fire plane and the Eladrins and Arvandor. They have no soul separated from their body like humanoids, and they return to their plane upon dying. If they are killed on their hime planes, they are destroyed. Native outsiders, like the shades, are a bit different on that matter. They are kinda like half-outsiders so they are not as pure as true outsiders, and can be resurrected like humanoids.
Anyway, the point is, native outsiders are not so unlike humanoids. The just have a taint from a certain plane, but very much human for everything else. I think the transformation into a lich should be the same as for a human, and with the same result (except retaining any shade ability they had). |
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About shade and undead templates
