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Doge
Seeker
73 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 17:49:23
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Hello again scribes! Does anyone know where the Shou have set up Shou-towns in Faerun prior to the Spellplague? I do know Thesk and some parts of the unapproachable east have them. So have they migrated west and set up Shou-towns beyond Thesk? Any official sources? This is for a 3.x game btw. I'm helping my friend research about Shou-towns. Also does anyone consider it odd that the Shou have Yakuza instead of Triads? Shou are based on Chinese culture which have the Triads and their western counterpart, Tongs. Yakuza should belong to the people of Kozakura and Wa as they are based on Japanese culture.
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 18:28:39
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quote:
From Class Chronicles: Eastern Classes
Shou Towns
Small Shou Towns and enclaves have sprung up in a number of major metropolitan areas in the Realms. These are somewhat akin to real-word Chinatowns, but perhaps smaller and more insular. The most well known of these is found in Elversult, but there are enclaves or embassies in Zindalankh (Murghōm), Shussel (Unther -- the newest of the established enclaves), Vaelen (Var the Golden), and Sheirtalar. The ever-enterprising Shou are also busy with intrigues behind the scenes to establish enclaves or embassies in Athkatla (Amn), Chavyondat (Estagund), and the island-nation of Tharsult (in the Shining Sea)
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Doge
Seeker
73 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 20:58:55
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Ah, perfect. I knew it existed somewhere. Forgot that it was in the class chronicles. Thanks for that. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 21:05:47
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| -In terms of terminology, Yakuza is certainly more widely known and sounds more 'exotic' than Triad, so I would assume this was their initial rationale. Also, keep in mind, most of the Kara-Tur stuff was written and assembled in the pre-Internet days, so research might of been just a little harder for those that might not have known. |
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Elves of Faerūn
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Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2018 : 11:24:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Doge
Also does anyone consider it odd that the Shou have Yakuza instead of Triads? Shou are based on Chinese culture which have the Triads and their western counterpart, Tongs. Yakuza should belong to the people of Kozakura and Wa as they are based on Japanese culture.
While I agree that yakuza is a specifically Japanese term and very much suggests some Wa or Kozakura influence among the criminal underworld in Shou towns, I don't agree that it would have been more realistic or better to use the term 'triad'.
For one thing, it originates in British-ruled Hong Kong, as the English name for organised crime syndicates. There are several theories as to why the name 'triad' was used, including that it is derived from either an inaccurate translation of the name of one specific organisation or from a perception by British police that Chinese criminals used triangular symbols.
It does not appear that the term 'triad' is an accurate translation of anything that actual Chinese criminals would use to refer to their organisations. Yes, they do now, but that's because of the cultural influence of Hong Kong movies, not because there exists any authentic Chinese concept of 'triads' as criminal organisations. As far as I can see, in a world without Hong Kong, it's unlikely that the term would see any usage.
The oddity of Chinese-derived 'Shou towns' with Japanese-named 'yakuza' criminal organisations struck me recently, when writing background from some NPCs. After a bit of research, however, I was satisfied that in as much the Shou towns made sense, they might well have yakuza. In real history, by the time there were 'Chinatowns' or Asian districts in Western countries, there were absolutely criminals of Japanese descent spread all over historical China, managing brothels on trade routes.
So imagining that there exist international secret societies named 'yakuza' in Kara-Tur, and along the Golden Way to Faerun, that have Shou members, as well as other Kara-Turan emigrants, is considerably less far-fetched than imagining that there would be an established Shou town as far inside Faerun as Elversult a mere dozen years after the Tuigan Crusade.
Tong, of course, just means meeting hall or, figuratively, social club. The canon mentions of shadowy yakuza organisations like the Nine Golden Swords that appear to reach across continents should in no way be read as evidence that there is no crime in Shou towns except that controlled by these yakuza.
It is plausible, in fact, that each Shou town has local tongs, both perfectly legitimate social clubs of law-abiding citizens, and ones that exist as cover for criminal activities. The latter type of tong might have ties to a more wide-ranging organisation, like the Nine Golden Swords yakuza, the Black Mist yakuza, the Society of the Purple Lotus, Many-Hued Peacock Society, the Royal Vagabonds, the Tsui Tong or others. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2018 : 16:59:08
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I have assumed the Yakuza and Ninja sub-cultures of the island nations have been infiltrating the mainland Kara-Tur Underworld for at least a millennia, so although various nations (and even provinces) might have their own, local names for these groups, they are now, at their heart, basically the same kind of organizations as the Yakuza and Ninja and are recognized as part of a 'greater Kara-Turran Underworld' (in other words, they had to settle on a single term in order to deal with each other on a business-level, and since the island groups seemed to be the best organized/recognized, they simply went with that).
Forgotten Realms history does NOT have to mirror our own, and even in the RW, the two cultures have been cross-pollinating forever. I have more trouble wrapping my mind around that 3e construct they seem to think is a 'Druid'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Apr 2018 17:00:11 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2018 : 12:52:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
So imagining that there exist international secret societies named 'yakuza' in Kara-Tur, and along the Golden Way to Faerun, that have Shou members, as well as other Kara-Turan emigrants, is considerably less far-fetched than imagining that there would be an established Shou town as far inside Faerun as Elversult a mere dozen years after the Tuigan Crusade.
Tong, of course, just means meeting hall or, figuratively, social club. The canon mentions of shadowy yakuza organisations like the Nine Golden Swords that appear to reach across continents
A trade way means both money and more opportunities to fence stolen stuff away, so it just makes sense.
quote:
should in no way be read as evidence that there is no crime in Shou towns except that controlled by these yakuza.
I'd assume they would specialize in specific types of shady business.
quote:
The latter type of tong might have ties to a more wide-ranging organisation, like the Nine Golden Swords yakuza, the Black Mist yakuza, the Society of the Purple Lotus, Many-Hued Peacock Society, the Royal Vagabonds, the Tsui Tong or others.
"Many-Hued Peacock vs. Black Network" has about as much ring to it as "Fire Knives vs. Dark Dagger".  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
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mastermustard
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2018 : 03:32:55
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Japan of Earth was able to resist invasion and develop its unique culture solely because of its geographic and political isolation. Both Kara-tur and Wa benefit from being island nations, but from what I've been able to piece together by reading through posts on Candlekeep, they're more open to trade and don't have policies of total isolation like Japan did through much of its history. If Kara-tur and Wa are open to trade, then they're definitely exporting culture as well, and likely have been for a long time.
That could explain the presence of Yakuza in what we would assume is a China analogue. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2018 : 04:08:36
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Originally posted by mastermustard
Japan of Earth was able to resist invasion and develop its unique culture solely because of its geographic and political isolation. Both Kara-tur and Wa benefit from being island nations, but from what I've been able to piece together by reading through posts on Candlekeep, they're more open to trade and don't have policies of total isolation like Japan did through much of its history. If Kara-tur and Wa are open to trade, then they're definitely exporting culture as well, and likely have been for a long time.
That could explain the presence of Yakuza in what we would assume is a China analogue.
I think you mean Kozakura. Kara-Tur is the name of the entire region. |
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Shou-towns in Faerun?
