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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Apr 2012 : 20:04:45
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Hi all,
I was thinking about the costs of sourcebook or adventure design and was wondering. Do color paged books cost a lot more than just plain black and white books? If Wizards started printing in black and white like the old 2E days and we got maybe 50 more pages per book/module would you go for it? I guess it all comes down to cost, but I'd gladly take a more simple plain looking book with more to it than colored glossy pages.
I was also thinking about the new Halls of Undermountain. Wizards should take a page from the World's Largest Dungeon or i think Castle Whiterock...two huge monster adventure, like 800 pages or some such and turn Ed and company loose some day and design out Undermountain into a ginormous adventure like that. I'd pay 100 bucks for it! I'd take a new location too, I suspect those ruins and tunnels under Yulash would make for a mega dungeon also!
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2012 : 20:12:35
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| I'd bet that color sourcebooks are WAY more expensive, like 500+%. I'm satisfied with the number of pages per sourcebooks since 3.X, if not by some of their content (like stats for gods in F&P, totally useless). |
Edited by - Kilvan on 18 Apr 2012 20:12:52 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2012 : 20:17:52
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I'm divided on the issue.
I love my full-color, illustrated, deluxe books, but at the same time, I can see the need for cheaper presentations in order to grow the hobby itself. Most 16-yr-olds don't have $50 bucks to plunk down on new books once or twice a month.
I think the ability to download books these days may offset this - books can have more pages without costing more to produce, and reach a larger audience, so the prohibitive price-tags on books with better art and layout should not be as much of an issue.
I'm hoping in 5e, we will see thicker, better-quality books for more reasonable prices because of this. The print versions - which their still should be for a major books - would still be expensive, but that is the price grognards will pay, and CAN pay. The only way to continue to grow this hobby into the future is creating a line of products with a reasonable price-point for beginners.
A mega-dungeon sounds cool, but would be monstrously expensive (especially if released by WotC/Hasbro) - I truly doubt it would sell well-enough to be viable. On the other hand, they could try to release a few 'upper levels' as a module, and see how it goes from there. If successful, it could become a series, or at least an adventure-arc.
"The Never-Ending Dungeon" - I like the sound of that.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2012 : 21:11:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
"The Never-Ending Dungeon" - I like the sound of that.
"This is the crypt that doesn't end
Yes, it goes on and on, my friend,
Some people started delving it, not knowing what it was
And they'll continue delving it forever just because . . " (<original source>) |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3745 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2012 : 22:23:54
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-I would assume that the cost for color would be somewhat higher than the cost for black and white, but since things are being printed in massive bulk, and it's a relatively large company with a deep enough checkbook, the difference in cost is probably negligible.
-I'd rather have unnecessary things like certain stat blocks, or non Forgotten Realms-specific items, monsters, PrCs/PPs, spells, and so on removed than removing the color from books. The style of artwork that is used now just wouldn't look good in black and white. Too complex. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2012 : 22:41:16
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And if they have them made in sweat-shops with poisonous materials, they could save a bundle and pass the savings on to us!
 
@BEAST - NICE  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Apr 2012 19:49:07 |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 18:35:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-I would assume that the cost for color would be somewhat higher than the cost for black and white, but since things are being printed in massive bulk, and it's a relatively large company with a deep enough checkbook, the difference in cost is probably negligible.
-I'd rather have unnecessary things like certain stat blocks, or non Forgotten Realms-specific items, monsters, PrCs/PPs, spells, and so on removed than removing the color from books. The style of artwork that is used now just wouldn't look good in black and white. Too complex.
That's a good point, they'd almost have to devolve the art in order to pull it off. Trimming unnecessary things sounds like a good idea for saving space. The whole feat, prestige class and spell sections seem to eat up entirely too much of a given book it seems. Hopefully 5E trims that down alot. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 20:03:52
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Design and writing cost the same (more or less) and are relatively cheap compared to the art. Not to mention that a lot of it can be done with in-house designers as a regular part of their salary. Freelancers are brought in for various reasons, not the least of which is to plug holes where designers are too busy to fill. Freelancers are also extremely helpful in having a range of input/opinion/perception that goes into a book--I find a 40%/60 balance of in-housers vs. freelancers tends to produce the best quality material.
(We should distinguish the question of text vs. art as opposed to crunch vs. fluff. Taking out crunch only forces you to put in more fluff--or vice versa--both of which you have to pay for, so you're looking at a net cost savings of $0.)
Taking out statblocks, etc., doesn't produce any savings, since you just have to pay for the text to fill up that space. The only way you'd really be saving when producing a sourcebook is to use less or cheaper art (which I don't think any of us want), cut page count (definitely none of us want), or do black and white as opposed to color (which is WAY cheaper, as I understand it).
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3745 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 21:20:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
(We should distinguish the question of text vs. art as opposed to crunch vs. fluff. Taking out crunch only forces you to put in more fluff--or vice versa--both of which you have to pay for, so you're looking at a net cost savings of $0.)
-Unless they don't and just cut page count. You figure, outside of art, that stuff is the most unnecessary and first to be cut if space is needed. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 19 Apr 2012 21:27:35 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2012 : 18:57:08
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But we have an internet, and page count doesn't matter nearly as much as it used to.
Even if they continue to produce print books, all the stuff that used to wind-up "on the cutting room floor" should be used in a Web Enhancement. Nothing should ever be lost or left-out again.
Also, there should be a way of updating digital books with additional information and errata - that would be sweet. No more '3.5' editions, PLEASE. I also want to see characters that can be carried around on your tablet, WiFi enabled so that everything the DM records on his gets transferred (hits, penalties, items, timed effects, etc). Create a damn hybrid VG/tabletop format - it should be possible.
Then every DM can get a Microsoft Surface table - that would blur the lines between tabletop and VG's. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Apr 2012 19:04:10 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2012 : 19:45:39
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This DM is quite stubbornly content with his non-Microsoft technologies.
These days it's quite trivial to tweak a graphic for best monochrome appearance, it literally takes only one additional minute of billing time. I don't see any reason for artwork to be redone, just make a colour graphic for the eBook/web/collector's editions and use much print-cheaper black-and-white for the mainstream.
As much as the full colour artwork in all those 3E and 4E sourcebooks has amused me, I'd happily chop one third or one half of the price off for monochrome ... the option of buying three or four books instead of two for the same price, no? Besides, the original artworks always float around DDI and the Wizards site, if colour references ever become desperately needed.
Of course this product line is very much about eye candy. I expect monochrome comic books sell poorly compared to colour versions, and nobody will ever play a monochrome computer game these days. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 20 Apr 2012 19:49:21 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3745 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2012 : 02:57:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
But we have an internet, and page count doesn't matter nearly as much as it used to.
-It still counts, in that it prioritizes what makes it into the physical book, and what doesn't. A lot of good web enhancement stuff has been released over the years, and a lot of it was generally better than some of the stuff that appeared in the physical books themselves ([i]Dragon of Faerūn web enhancement, I am looking at you), but the main focus wasn't specifically on those things (despite their being better). |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2012 : 04:22:08
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| Honestly I thought the monochrome artwork in the FRCS was more than acceptable. But that's 3e. 2e monochrome artwork was generally generic (it often looked like they were sketching costumes straight from history books), boring, and terrible. |
Edited by - Eladrinstar on 23 Apr 2012 04:23:03 |
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Realms Sourcebook Design Question
