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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Mar 2012 : 02:59:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
To gain more resources and steal a lot of magical items which the elves undoubtedly are hoarding. Though I guess it'd be pretty challenging for the Most High, since he'd have to plant a couple of spies in Cormarthyr if he wishes to use the same strategy he did in taking Sembia, and we know how wary of humans the elves are. His own people will most likely not qualify, for even though they're well-versed in the illusory magic, such would easily unravel upon contact with the mythal. Maybe this would be one of the those times when Telamont makes the exception and uses brute force over manipulation.
Of course, if he did that, then the elves would have to use their resources and magical items to fight him... Which makes it a zero sum proposition, at best. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2012 : 04:15:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
You might utterly detest the notion, Dennis, but a very logical option for shades determined to (invisibly) wage war against Cormyr would be to locate and recruit every Zhent and Manshoon clone they could find.
They annihilated Zhentil Keep. No sane Zhent would rally to their cause, unless of course, they mind-control them. As for Manshoon...well, there are quite a lot of alternatives, so I don't see why Telamont would automatically pick that. And for the record, I don't detest it. In fact, I'd be happy to see some Shoonclones completely controlled by Telamont (as he does the dracolich Malygris), whether for practicality's sake or for his amusement.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
To gain more resources and steal a lot of magical items which the elves undoubtedly are hoarding. Though I guess it'd be pretty challenging for the Most High, since he'd have to plant a couple of spies in Cormarthyr if he wishes to use the same strategy he did in taking Sembia, and we know how wary of humans the elves are. His own people will most likely not qualify, for even though they're well-versed in the illusory magic, such would easily unravel upon contact with the mythal. Maybe this would be one of the those times when Telamont makes the exception and uses brute force over manipulation.
Of course, if he did that, then the elves would have to use their resources and magical items to fight him... Which makes it a zero sum proposition, at best.
Not necessarily, if Telamont prepares enough---hires/bribes/forces enough people to fight for him, especially those, as Sage pointed out, who hate the elves so much that they might join the war to exterminate the pesky elves without asking for payment.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I'd like to see them try to take Cormanthyr, or at least some portion of it.
Aside from an interesting new branch of antagonism between humans and elves, I can't really see why the Shadovar would bother.
Instead, I'd see them more than likely employing proxies to fight the elves -- ragtag monstrous groups, orcs, trolls, dark elves -- practically any evil-aligned race with a hatred for elves. Mercenary humans would, of course, probably factor into that collection of proxies as well, I suppose.
That is a given. They wouldn't reveal themselves and fight their enemies head-on unless it's quite necessary. Their pawns would have to go first. They already have many monstrous servants...And if just one archwizard could control great monsters like a dracolich (Malygris by Telamont) and a kraken (Ssessimith by Rivalen), then imagine how many lesser creatures they can control... They could naturally hire mercenaries as well, which is not a problem as Sembia's gold is more than enough to lure them. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2012 : 09:53:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
To gain more resources and steal a lot of magical items which the elves undoubtedly are hoarding. Though I guess it'd be pretty challenging for the Most High, since he'd have to plant a couple of spies in Cormarthyr if he wishes to use the same strategy he did in taking Sembia, and we know how wary of humans the elves are. His own people will most likely not qualify, for even though they're well-versed in the illusory magic, such would easily unravel upon contact with the mythal. Maybe this would be one of the those times when Telamont makes the exception and uses brute force over manipulation.
Of course, if he did that, then the elves would have to use their resources and magical items to fight him... Which makes it a zero sum proposition, at best.
Not necessarily, if Telamont prepares enough---hires/bribes/forces enough people to fight for him, especially those, as Sage pointed out, who hate the elves so much that they might join the war to exterminate the pesky elves without asking for payment.
How is that at all relevant to the elves using the things Shade is after to defend themselves? It doesn't matter who attacks -- elves are going to use their resources and magic to defend themselves. And if that's what the attacker is after, then the attackers are not getting it, rendering the point of the attack moot. |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2012 : 21:58:09
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I have enough Shoon clones around my Realms, and to quote Gandalf:
HE does not share power!!
Manshoon would never allow himself to be taken under someone elses
power, if nothing else, Manshoon prime (the one who hides in a almost
unreachable demiplane) would come back and whoop tail. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2012 : 23:28:39
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| "Hey Manshoon, let's make a deal. We want Cormyr taken down, you want Cormyr taken down. We'll make you a shade (and incidentally make you immune to dying from decapitation), we'll give you magic, we'll even give you troops, in return you just do what you've always plotted to do anyways, we only expect that you'll split the spoils and ally with us afterwards." |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2012 : 04:33:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
To gain more resources and steal a lot of magical items which the elves undoubtedly are hoarding. Though I guess it'd be pretty challenging for the Most High, since he'd have to plant a couple of spies in Cormarthyr if he wishes to use the same strategy he did in taking Sembia, and we know how wary of humans the elves are. His own people will most likely not qualify, for even though they're well-versed in the illusory magic, such would easily unravel upon contact with the mythal. Maybe this would be one of the those times when Telamont makes the exception and uses brute force over manipulation.
Of course, if he did that, then the elves would have to use their resources and magical items to fight him... Which makes it a zero sum proposition, at best.
Not necessarily, if Telamont prepares enough---hires/bribes/forces enough people to fight for him, especially those, as Sage pointed out, who hate the elves so much that they might join the war to exterminate the pesky elves without asking for payment.
How is that at all relevant to the elves using the things Shade is after to defend themselves? It doesn't matter who attacks -- elves are going to use their resources and magic to defend themselves. And if that's what the attacker is after, then the attackers are not getting it, rendering the point of the attack moot.
Evareska would have fallen if Waterdeep, Cormyr, and the Chosen didn't lend a helping hand. That speaks volumes of how much vulnerable they can be when faced my so many strong and manipulative foes.
The elves are practically clueless when it comes to shadow magic. Heck, perhaps the Shadovar could simply raise a Shadowshell to weaken their mythal and fry them inside. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2012 : 04:35:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
"Hey Manshoon, let's make a deal. We want Cormyr taken down, you want Cormyr taken down. We'll make you a shade (and incidentally make you immune to dying from decapitation), we'll give you magic, we'll even give you troops, in return you just do what you've always plotted to do anyways, we only expect that you'll split the spoils and ally with us afterwards."
Not a bad bargain...Though I insist that Telamont subjugate him instead. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2012 : 05:11:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
To gain more resources and steal a lot of magical items which the elves undoubtedly are hoarding. Though I guess it'd be pretty challenging for the Most High, since he'd have to plant a couple of spies in Cormarthyr if he wishes to use the same strategy he did in taking Sembia, and we know how wary of humans the elves are. His own people will most likely not qualify, for even though they're well-versed in the illusory magic, such would easily unravel upon contact with the mythal. Maybe this would be one of the those times when Telamont makes the exception and uses brute force over manipulation.
Of course, if he did that, then the elves would have to use their resources and magical items to fight him... Which makes it a zero sum proposition, at best.
Not necessarily, if Telamont prepares enough---hires/bribes/forces enough people to fight for him, especially those, as Sage pointed out, who hate the elves so much that they might join the war to exterminate the pesky elves without asking for payment.
How is that at all relevant to the elves using the things Shade is after to defend themselves? It doesn't matter who attacks -- elves are going to use their resources and magic to defend themselves. And if that's what the attacker is after, then the attackers are not getting it, rendering the point of the attack moot.
Evareska would have fallen if Waterdeep, Cormyr, and the Chosen didn't lend a helping hand. That speaks volumes of how much vulnerable they can be when faced my so many strong and manipulative foes.
The elves are practically clueless when it comes to shadow magic. Heck, perhaps the Shadovar could simply raise a Shadowshell to weaken their mythal and fry them inside.
And I once more fail to see the relevance.
You said Shade should attack to get the elves' magical goodies. I said if Shade attacked, the elves would use those magical goodies for defense, and thus even if the Shades won, they'd not get what they were after.
You keep explaining why you think the elves would fall, and not paying attention to the fact that I've not agreed or disagreed with you on that -- all I've said is that the Shades, in attacking, would cause their objective to be lost. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 01 Apr 2012 05:13:28 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2012 : 05:15:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
To gain more resources and steal a lot of magical items which the elves undoubtedly are hoarding. Though I guess it'd be pretty challenging for the Most High, since he'd have to plant a couple of spies in Cormarthyr if he wishes to use the same strategy he did in taking Sembia, and we know how wary of humans the elves are. His own people will most likely not qualify, for even though they're well-versed in the illusory magic, such would easily unravel upon contact with the mythal. Maybe this would be one of the those times when Telamont makes the exception and uses brute force over manipulation.
Of course, if he did that, then the elves would have to use their resources and magical items to fight him... Which makes it a zero sum proposition, at best.
Not necessarily, if Telamont prepares enough---hires/bribes/forces enough people to fight for him, especially those, as Sage pointed out, who hate the elves so much that they might join the war to exterminate the pesky elves without asking for payment.
How is that at all relevant to the elves using the things Shade is after to defend themselves? It doesn't matter who attacks -- elves are going to use their resources and magic to defend themselves. And if that's what the attacker is after, then the attackers are not getting it, rendering the point of the attack moot.
Evareska would have fallen if Waterdeep, Cormyr, and the Chosen didn't lend a helping hand. That speaks volumes of how much vulnerable they can be when faced my so many strong and manipulative foes.
The elves are practically clueless when it comes to shadow magic. Heck, perhaps the Shadovar could simply raise a Shadowshell to weaken their mythal and fry them inside.
And I once more fail to see the relevance.
You said Shade should attack to get the elves' magical goodies. I said if Shade attacked, the elves would use those magical goodies for defense, and thus even if the Shades won, they'd not get what they were after.
You keep replying with other things that have absolutely no bearing on what I'm saying.
No. I doubt if they would use all their magical items for defense. They don't even touch those that are kept in the tombs of their deceased owners. In RotA, Evareskans relied more on their spellcasting and swords than magical items. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2012 : 17:36:17
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I thought that Shenandra (pg.87, WoN, Netheril Box) would have succeeded with her Phaerimm-countering magic, but after re-reading that entry it seems that the Crown of Horns was responsible for her demise, NOT the Fall of Netheril.
Interesting bit of lore, that. Seems the crown already had a sentience, and altered the research being done on it. Considering that we now know Shar had a hand in the fall of Netheril (behind the scenes, influencing Karsus IIRC). And we know that 'death magic' (necromancy) is connected to Shadow-magic (both have been folded into the old 'Negative energy' thing), it seems that Shar has been either using or working with Myrkul (or Jergal?) for far longer then I suspected (she used the 'Dark Three' to facilitate Cyric's ascendance).
Trying to find that bit of lore, I had to re-read much of the Netheril geography entries, and I am re-discovering some rather interesting bits. Apparently, long before the Netherese (Gur?) arrived in the Anauroch region, the Rengardt had legends about another evil empire in the region - one run by Illithids and filled with undead (which makes me also think Cordell is a big Slade fan/disciple). I knew (from my other research) there was something special about the God's Legion (Desertmouth) Mountains, and that entry just confirms it. I may have found either another 'buried' primordial, or a group akin to Othea (the mother of Giants), who is either some sort of primordial (original) giant, or archfey (which may actually be the same thing, that far back).
I have to now wonder if the meteor (tearfall) that created the SoFS (or Moonsea) had some 'passengers'. 
Anyhow, as I always say, the great thing about the Realms is that the more layers you peel back, the more mysteries you find. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Apr 2012 17:37:32 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2482 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2012 : 19:36:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
I think Netheril still falls, only in bloody civil war stretched out over years or decades, rather than one big crash.
The problem is that there isn't an "Empire of Netheril." As we know from Ed, it is, at best, a loose confederation of city-states, and in actuality much more a general area of terrain where a bunch of city-states exist. Each one has its own ruler, its own policies, its own rivialries. And we saw that by the time of the Fall, open war was beginning between the enclaves.
I don't see a contradiction here. 
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Remember also that no one knew about the phaerimm. The presence of an external, powerful foe might be enough to do a bit of uniting, but the phaerimm were very careful to avoid giving the Netherese that glue. So instead you have the land dying of an obviously magical cause that no one can pin down. All of the enclaves will blame each other. They'll all deny it, and the more they deny, the more convinced they'll become that someone's lying. Distrust blossoms, and it's every enclave for itself in a desperate grab for diminishing resources.
Absent someone of absolute authority actually dragging a real, live, confessing phaerimm in front of the archwizards, I don't see any way Netheril doesn't tear itself apart.
Mainly because these guys refused to explore a possibility that there's someone or something more powerful than themselves. Just like with gods.
With a few exclusions like Karsus. Then again, he did have enough of authority that if he could provide any proof to his "crazy" theories, he would be heard - then yeah, Netherese would unite and the rest would be very, very messy.
Also, the situation was precarious for both sides. Phaerimm couldn't simply put more spells against spells indefinitely when the Weave was already dangerously drained for them, even if lifedrain didn't permanently diminish the caster's lifeforce.
So they would be forced into open war if Karsus or anyone else developed repeatable means to break lifedrain and managed to spread this knowledge.
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Portals are established to explore other planes of existence, other worlds, making them an additional source of wealth...
Who? Netherese? Remember what happened when they tried 'jamming? They managed to quickly make it unprofitable. 
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So given the continued destruction of the land below, I think each archwizard would have simply taken his enclave somewhere else, and left the phaerimm and the expanding desert behind.
We know for a fact that not all of the enclaves were in Netheril proper at the time of the Fall, anyway -- which I think further underscores this probability.
Karsus Avatar was researched in what, 3520? Anauroch stopped spreading no sooner than 4188. The Crown against Scepter wars happened in 4058-4167.
So, most likely, they would indeed drift apart and the problem would geographically blur. But then, Phaerimm could run into elves. Who at the time were less wilfully oblivious, which quickly raises the chance of ensuing all-out hilarity. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2012 : 20:14:45
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The Netherese were little better then the rulers of Thay, as far as I can tell. They all did their own thing, and reluctantly cooperated only when necessary.
During their heyday, Netherese (ground) settlements were still being attacked by all manner of creatures, and the enclaves almost never came to their defense (unless vital resources were threatened).
I don't think of Anauroch and Netheril as the same thing - Anauroch encompasses the original 'homeland' of the tribes that eventually formed into the Seventon and then Netheril. It is a geographic region.
Netheril is a political entity, which was primarily situated over (pre-desert) Anauroch, but was also spread out to many other areas as well (more of a loose confederation, then any real empire). This would be like trying to call pre-Alexader (citystates) Greece 'an empire'. This is also why (I figure) we have the variety of Netherese names - many of the archmages and others settled in Netherese enclaves from elsewhere - from all over Faerun, probably.
In my HB material, my archmage (Seluj Enrev, who's father was a Calishite Sorcerer) took his enclave all the way into Kara-Tur (where it sank into the Yellow Sea after the fall). This was the enclave 'witnessed' by the Imaskari, just before their own fall. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Apr 2012 20:25:31 |
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Amarel Derakanor
Seeker
97 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2012 : 21:50:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
In my HB material, my archmage (Seluj Enrev, who's father was a Calishite Sorcerer) took his enclave all the way into Kara-Tur (where it sank into the Yellow Sea after the fall).
Any relation to the french one? 
Edit: Not enclave, person. The author. |
Edited by - Amarel Derakanor on 02 Apr 2012 21:52:19 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2012 : 01:50:46
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Portals are established to explore other planes of existence, other worlds, making them an additional source of wealth...
Who? Netherese? Remember what happened when they tried 'jamming? They managed to quickly make it unprofitable.
That was then. Who's to say they couldn't manage to do that years after? Rivalen Tanthul traveled to another world (Ephyras) at will. If an archwizard can do such thing with scarcely an effort, then portal-making would be a no-sweat undertaking. Not to mention Larloch, a Netherese, now has a plethora of portals, whose existence or link to the great lich, no mortal nor deity is fully aware of. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6680 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2012 : 03:21:51
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Portals are inherently dangerous and unstable. They are certainly not a quick road to easy wealth.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2012 : 04:12:25
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Perhaps. But what had the Netherese done that were not dangerous? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2012 : 05:12:35
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| The Netherese (aside from a handful of eccentric arcanists) did entirely avoid Realmspace and spelljamming. Sure we can say they haughtily considered themselves above such impractical novelties ... but we could just as easily say that they were intimidated by the power of the arcane, or that they were fearful of bringing the collective wrath of hostile spelljamming nations onto their doorstep. For that matter, we also know that archwizards as a group were generally disinterested in other planes, possibly for similar reasons they avoided spelljamming. The canon sources do not adequately address any of this; all speculation is just as valid, even if it casts Netheril in a cowardly, paranoid, and timid light. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2012 : 10:53:57
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| It is documented that they went into space, but that their behavior up there caused them to be most unwelcome. The Netherese were basically chased out of space. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2012 : 15:25:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It is documented that they went into space, but that their behavior up there caused them to be most unwelcome. The Netherese were basically chased out of space.
I don't see it as the Netherese necessarily being "chased out of space."
Rather, as it was, I believe it was the arrogance of the Netherese that couldn't abide relying on the Arcane for just about all their realm's spelljamming needs. And, so, they abandoned the initiative altogether. |
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Edited by - The Sage on 03 Apr 2012 15:26:29 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2012 : 16:50:04
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Actually Sage, I have to go with wooly on this one.
They performed the most hellishly evil of all acts - they "experimented" (dissection? vivisection?) on sentients. They simply treated everything they met in space like 'an animal'.
Considering all the races in space, that was a BIG mistake.
quote:
Originally posted by Amarel_Derakanor
Any relation to the french one?
The archmage is very loosely based on the character-types (Victorian psuedo-scientists) that the author favored, and the enclave has that type of vibe, and so I (after seeing how it looked) decided to pay homage to my inspiration in that fashion.
There is no physical (blood) relation between the two.
I also realized that that is an example of something I have stated in another thread that I absolutely hated, and while I could comically add, "my rules don't apply to ME", the truth is, if any of my lore became canon, I would change the names of a lot of stuff (which is why I wish Brian James had conferred with me for the name 'Collinswood', which I borrowed from a TV show). My homebrew lore can have as much stupid crap as i want in it (and only my players have to put up with it), but if I were to write anything official, I wouldn't be so obviously derivative (derivative YES, obvious... NO). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Apr 2012 16:58:51 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2012 : 21:48:09
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| -Chiming in, I've also seen it as a situation where the Netherese were made to know that they "weren't welcome" because of their actions, and as a result, made the decision to 'forget it', similar to a little kid rationalizing that something/someone is stupid because they don't get it, or aren't liked, or whatever. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2012 : 23:40:36
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| A sour-grapes civilization? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2012 : 23:42:12
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| -If you figure that so many of them were so powerful with magic that they oftentimes reshaped reality to suit them, I think the proportion of influential Netherese residents who had that kind attitude far outclassed those who didn't. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2012 : 01:41:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
[snip]we also know that archwizards as a group were generally disinterested in other planes...[snip]
I tend to disagree. There's hardly any records about the Netherese dabbling in planar experiments; but I wouldn't discount the possibility that, given their curiosity to all things arcane, many of them had done so. Larloch did, and still does. Karsus was busy with his preparation for the Avatar spell, so he left to his then student, Telamont Tanthul, the special task of delving deeper into the mysteries of the Demiplane of Shadow. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2012 : 02:53:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Actually Sage, I have to go with wooly on this one.
Sure.
But my own take is backed up by lore as well:-
quote:
Netheril: Empire of Magic -- "Winds of Netheril" pg. 9:-
Since the Netherese were unsuccessful in creating their own helms and other spelljamming items-being forced to rely on the Arcane for such materialsthey decided to drop out of Realmspace.
So, again, the collective arrogance of the Netherese people -- and their desire for self-sufficiency -- was certainly a factor in their decision to abandon the exploration of Realmspace via spelljamming. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 04 Apr 2012 02:55:23 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2012 : 02:56:40
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From Netheril it is noted that the only arcanists who ever seriously studied the planus mechanicus set of Nether Scrolls were Valdick and Shadow.
Valdick "invented" all the planar spells (astral spell, gate, etc) from about 2000NY onwards, along with the Valdick's Spheresail spell which duplicated spelljamming. He apparently loved to travel, was rarely actually found anywhere in Netheril, and was generally thought of as a strange but mostly harmless eccentric by his peers.
Shadow's work came more than twelve centuries later, his Demiplane of Shadow was the first other plane (beyond the Ethereal) known to anyone in Netheril other than Valdick. Most of the "dozens of arcanists" who dared to explore his new Demiplane of Shadow never returned so such studies were judged too perilous to persue. Even during his prime, even with Karsus backing him as a close friend and official sponsor, Lord Shadow still found his work ridiculed and rejected so violently that he ultimately had to fake his own assassination to escape the wrath of his peers. His new magic theory was valid, but in Netheril it was always controversial, never revolutionary - it affected Karsus (who decreed laws specifying forced ejection to the Elemental Plane of Fire as part of an ultimate form of execution), but it just didn't have enough time to profoundly affect Netheril at large.
So,
1) The only arcanists actually interested in exploring other worlds and planes were basically radicals and renegades, and
2) Netheril at large was incapable of dealing what they found in these places, they had no interest in falling off the edge of the map describing their empire. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 04 Apr 2012 03:00:31 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2012 : 04:16:07
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Didn't the Netherese actually invade the Outands in some novel or other?
When you try to 'take over' the planer-hub of the multiverse, I would say that a fairly BIG interest in other planes.
Can't recall where that lore was from (I never read the exact source - only heard about it from others), but I'm pretty sure it was later more fully canonized in some timeline (most likely LEoF, or the GHotR). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2012 : 04:27:16
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It's The Seven Sigils War, mentioned in GHotR, and, as noted by some scribes, in the novel Finders Bane. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2482 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 13:05:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Netherese? Remember what happened when they tried 'jamming? They managed to quickly make it unprofitable.
That was then. Who's to say they couldn't manage to do that years after?
The main problem remained: power-drunk jerks have troubles working with anyone. A few like Oberon or Larloch may be sensible enough and able to set things up as they see fit, but once this becomes a mass phenomenon...
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
But my own take is backed up by lore as well:-
Ah, but read more there: Great wealth entered the groundling city, but spelljamming proved an even greater expense.
In 2895 NY, the archwizards decided that the risk was far too great to justify the tremendous expense of lost ships and murdered crews. That is, Arcane then-complete monopoly on helms didn't bother Netherese much as long as they hoped to get anything of value to them in return for their expenses. Except for Oberon and like-minded folk for whom it remained worthwile because they explored just for the exploration's sake. Others chose to cut the losses when they finally realized they hit a dead-end.
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
There's hardly any records about the Netherese dabbling in planar experiments; but I wouldn't discount the possibility that, given their curiosity to all things arcane, many of them had done so.
In the trilogy, archwizards had a rather casual attitude about the planes, but weren't really interested in any implications as long as there's no open gate to Lower planes or something like this.
Mod edit: Tweaked the spacing a bit to try to get around the page-stretching reference. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 15 Apr 2012 16:51:32 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 16:21:29
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IMO, Any race or large group/civilization that has powerful magic or other simple means of planer travel wouldn't bother with Spelljamming. Since the Netherese were adept enough to just 'snap their fingers and be there' when it came to other worlds, Spelljamming was probably thought-of more in terms of what they could get out of Arcane Space itself, rather then as a means of travel.
So, from their point of view, its was a very inefficient way to get anywhere, which is where the "risk was far too great to justify the tremendous expense" comes into play. If they were only using Spelljamming as a means to profit from Arcane Space, and not as their primary method of traveling between worlds, then it would soon have become apparent that space itself had very little to offer, other then other (often belligerent) sentient lifeforms (who took offense at even being considered 'a resource').
It seems to me at this point that many Archwizards were concerned with mercantile pursuits, and that much of their 'scientific breakthroughs' (magical discoveries) were often focused on profits. Sadly, the Netherese are beginning to remind me of an Arcane version of the United States - slavery, exploitation, drainage of natural resources, near-genocide of indigenous peoples, militaristic, 'Yankee Trader' mentality, etc, etc... and at their core, a 'mad brilliance' that made them excel at everything they attempted.
Even snatching godhood. 
We all know what happened when Icarus "reached for the sheavens" - he fell hard. Its an old story. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Apr 2012 16:21:49 |
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Had Karsus not cast his Avatar spell, where would
