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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3745 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 15:17:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Overall, I can't help thinking, "wow, why is Jared surprised, here?" This is, after all, a highly detailed SHARED fantasy world (i.e. multiple authors, lots of research, etc). I say "highly" rather than "fully," because you could fit as much data as he found here into describing my bedroom at home with just me and two cats in it. What does he think world building is all about?
This data is there for DMs to use, if they want to. If you're building a campaign and you find things that don't make sense to you or are frustrating you, then by all means, ignore them.
It's somewhat different when you're actually writing an actual article for the Forgotten Realms Intellectual Property, where indeed, you have to take the facts and flavor of the world into account because THAT'S YOUR JOB as a designer. If you don't want to steep your work in Realmslore, DON'T WORK IN THE FORGOTTEN REALMS. 
Cheers
-I don't know if irony is the most appropriate term to be used here, but as mentioned by yourself and a few other people, it's his job. He's being paid to do so. From the point of view of a person looking things up willy-nilly for their own personal enjoyment, as agreed upon by all, looking up every little niggling detail would indeed be difficult, time consuming, and whatever else- though, as someone who regularly did so for Elves of Faerûn, because I am a fan, I did not see such research as tedious and difficult, but rather, fun and interesting. If someone had that attitude for their own personal games or whatever else, it definitley could be a pain in the ass. If you're being paid, though, you're being paid. You're getting money to, presumably, research and write about a topic/topics you enjoy (if not the Forgotten Realms themselves, generic fantasy adventures). A tenured professor who has a research grant to research information in his field of expertise, why would he complain? He is being paid to investigate stuff he already has expressed a great deal of interest and live about. Seems silly that he would complain about having to pour over so many different sources when the subject is something he has dedicated his profession to. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Thieran
Learned Scribe
Germany
293 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 16:44:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I found the article funny. Overly long, which takes the wind out of the comedic timing, but something that still provoked a couple chuckles.
Overall, I can't help thinking, "wow, why is Jared surprised, here?" This is, after all, a highly detailed SHARED fantasy world (i.e. multiple authors, lots of research, etc). I say "highly" rather than "fully," because you could fit as much data as he found here into describing my bedroom at home with just me and two cats in it. What does he think world building is all about?
This data is there for DMs to use, if they want to. If you're building a campaign and you find things that don't make sense to you or are frustrating you, then by all means, ignore them.
It's somewhat different when you're actually writing an actual article for the Forgotten Realms Intellectual Property, where indeed, you have to take the facts and flavor of the world into account because THAT'S YOUR JOB as a designer. If you don't want to steep your work in Realmslore, DON'T WORK IN THE FORGOTTEN REALMS.
Cheers
Well said, Erik! |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2012 : 02:25:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Tarlyn
quote:
"My editor and Eric L. Boyd got together, decided that they didn’t like me anymore, and gave me exactly what I was looking for—the fully annotated draft of City of Splendors: Waterdeep. And when I say “fully
annotated,” I mean fully annotated. Containing citations for every tiny detail that came from a previously published novel, web page, comic book, supplement, or canonical t-shirt meticulously organized by Eric."
I want this!
I strongly agree with you on that one.
As do I. I also want Steven Schend's Khelben timeline (and genealogy, if that also exists...). 
quote:
Originally posted by Thieran
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I found the article funny. Overly long, which takes the wind out of the comedic timing, but something that still provoked a couple chuckles.
Overall, I can't help thinking, "wow, why is Jared surprised, here?" This is, after all, a highly detailed SHARED fantasy world (i.e. multiple authors, lots of research, etc). I say "highly" rather than "fully," because you could fit as much data as he found here into describing my bedroom at home with just me and two cats in it. What does he think world building is all about?
This data is there for DMs to use, if they want to. If you're building a campaign and you find things that don't make sense to you or are frustrating you, then by all means, ignore them.
It's somewhat different when you're actually writing an actual article for the Forgotten Realms Intellectual Property, where indeed, you have to take the facts and flavor of the world into account because THAT'S YOUR JOB as a designer. If you don't want to steep your work in Realmslore, DON'T WORK IN THE FORGOTTEN REALMS.
Cheers
Well said, Erik!
Agreed! |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 30 Mar 2012 02:45:44 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2012 : 04:32:08
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quote:
Jakk
I also want Steven Schend's Khelben timeline (and genealogy, if that also exists...).
It's been linked several times in this scroll. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2012 : 08:02:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
It's somewhat different when you're actually writing an actual article for the Forgotten Realms Intellectual Property, where indeed, you have to take the facts and flavor of the world into account because THAT'S YOUR JOB as a designer. If you don't want to steep your work in Realmslore, DON'T WORK IN THE FORGOTTEN REALMS.
+1 million.
It's both a point of professional pride to know the material that you're writing for, and a default assumption that someone getting paid to work on a shared world setting is either going to know the material or do the needed research before putting pen to paper. When that doesn't happen it really, really shows in what gets printed.
I haven't written for FR*, but Planescape and Golarion (Pathfinder) I'm downright obsessive about making sure that I don't miss something buried in the lore, and that I don't contradict anything if at all possible. I like it when people writing for a given setting have the same approach and write both as professionals and also out of appreciation and enjoyment of that world as well.
*one writeup of Artemis Entreri in Dragon, and inclusion of a cleric of Lathander in a Planescape article probably doesn't count |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Edited by - Shemmy on 01 Apr 2012 08:04:00 |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2012 : 01:13:09
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Someone on twitter just pointed out this older blog post by Matthew Sernett. I suggest not reading it if you are prone to seizures or migraines :p
http://sernett.com/world-building/game-flaw-canon/ |
Edited by - Matt James on 02 Apr 2012 01:13:28 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36863 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2012 : 04:34:45
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| It's not a bad article, but it does make me hope the author doesn't have anything to do with the Realms. The Realms has already suffered from too many creators disregarding canon. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3745 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2012 : 06:24:07
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| -Why would continuity be a bad thing? That boggles my mind. How to "tell" an open-ended "story" and not have continuity, maybe even more. In the sense that by defining certain things as 'real', and other things as 'not real', you're starting to open up cans of worms, I get, but outside of that... |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 02 Apr 2012 06:24:57 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6679 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2012 : 06:29:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The example given for Eric's annotated draft City of Splendors: Waterdeep promotes him slightly above Christopher Rowe (but not quite as high on the list of numinaries as Grandmaster George Krashos) in my mind when ranking neurotically and exhaustively hyperaccurate Realms authors. I, too, am morbidly intrigued by the offhanded mention of "Steven Schend's unpublished Khelben timeline" - how much of this sort of stuff is floating around?
Lots.
Eric always was (and is) in my mind the greatest Realms details man in the business. Of course, I like to think of myself as his oft-time partner in crime and really miss the out of the blue e-mails which would politely ask me if I had the time to provide him with every single FR reference to ... say ... dragons in the published canon.
His annotated CoS:W manuscript is only a single example of what he did each and every time he was given a freelance gig. I have the annotated copies of DDGttU, SK, his bits from Champions of Ruin, Valor, Dragons of Faerûn, etc. etc. He was also the absolute master at weaving together disparate bits of realmslore into a coherent whole.
Steven has an even more-detailed Khelben family tree which maps out his spouses and descendants in greater detail. The links provided show only the skeleton.
The thing to keep in mind about these bits of random realmslore is that they exist because the people who created them cared enough about the setting to do MORE than was required of them, rather than simply handing in a manuscript and getting a cheque sent their way. There's a reason I've long collected lists of different "stuff" from the Realms for future reference (foods, drinks, sages, nobles houses, plays, books, etc. etc.). Someday someone might need them - even if it's only to enhance a single play session set in the Realms.
The big stuff (i.e. Khelben's family tree, the Cormyr lineage, my original North Timeline etc.) exists because someone thought that this kind of information might be important one day for future generations of future FR gamers. They had no guarantee that it would be, but considered the exercise a worthwhile one. It showed and shows the love they hold for Ed's creation and the respect and admiration they have for him. Nothing can ever beat the feeling of sharing some realmslore creation of your own with Ed to be told "Consider it canon. I now do."
I found the article hilarious. I do feel sorry for those who dive headfirst into the Realms. It's a bit like being one of those Russian Ice Divers. You know it's going to be good, but you'll sure struggle at first. I respect the effort Jared von Hindman made - it shows that he's got all the tools to write in the Realms. The article might have made it seem like he was saying that you didn't need to do all that stuff. But he did it. And next time round, he'd likely do it all over again. He's clearly someone who fell in love with the Realms, just that little bit.
It happens to the best of us.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6679 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2012 : 06:38:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
Someone on twitter just pointed out this older blog post by Matthew Sernett. I suggest not reading it if you are prone to seizures or migraines :p
http://sernett.com/world-building/game-flaw-canon/
That reads as a primer on what WotC didn't do in relation to the Realms. Scary.
Some of his suggestions are perfectly valid I think. Others, not so much.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 02 Apr 2012 06:39:51 |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2012 : 10:18:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's not a bad article, but it does make me hope the author doesn't have anything to do with the Realms. The Realms has already suffered from too many creators disregarding canon.
I'm pretty sure he's the lead on all Realms products. His last being the Neverwinter book. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36863 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2012 : 10:49:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's not a bad article, but it does make me hope the author doesn't have anything to do with the Realms. The Realms has already suffered from too many creators disregarding canon.
I'm pretty sure he's the lead on all Realms products. His last being the Neverwinter book.
That's not reassuring... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2012 : 11:42:09
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| Hm, I actually liked this article now that I bothered to read it. Amusing, and I agree with quite a bit of it. |
No Canon, more stories, more Realms. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2012 : 18:36:39
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I liked Sernett’s blog post. I think it illustrates some of the concerns Wizards had, in a way, with moving into the 4E Realms.
I especially liked this, “Even if you have canon gatekeepers employed full-time, something will slip through, and then thanks to the power of crowdsourcing on the internet, someone will notice. When you have that canon issue, your consumers who notice won’t care that it’s hard (or impossible, if your property is large enough) for you to avoid it.”
That pretty much explains 99% of the vitriolic complaints about Realmslore errors, not to mention the flaw in the thinking of those who are up in arms.
I do like his ideas about keeping things small, in terms of telling stories that are character driven, and avoiding big calamitous events. I don’t agree about not advancing the timeline, but I see where he’s coming from on that point.
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Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36863 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2012 : 19:15:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
I liked Sernett’s blog post. I think it illustrates some of the concerns Wizards had, in a way, with moving into the 4E Realms.
I especially liked this, “Even if you have canon gatekeepers employed full-time, something will slip through, and then thanks to the power of crowdsourcing on the internet, someone will notice. When you have that canon issue, your consumers who notice won’t care that it’s hard (or impossible, if your property is large enough) for you to avoid it.”
That pretty much explains 99% of the vitriolic complaints about Realmslore errors, not to mention the flaw in the thinking of those who are up in arms.
I do like his ideas about keeping things small, in terms of telling stories that are character driven, and avoiding big calamitous events. I don’t agree about not advancing the timeline, but I see where he’s coming from on that point.
Well, the issue comes in when canon is willfully ignored, and we've seen that since 3E came out. I can deal with an error, it's when it's deliberate that I get irked. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2012 : 20:33:30
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I can appreciate the sentiment. Seeing things that you care a lot about get changed isn’t always fun.
For me, when I read “willful” I think “deliberate”.
Regarding 3rd Edition, I think many of the deliberate decisions that flew in the face of canon (as it stood at the time) were really good decisions.
Altering the map so it fits on one poster-sized printout: smart, money-saving idea.
Punting on any in-game explanation as to why dwarves have always been able to employ arcane magic (so the race fits with 3E’s concept that all classes are open to all races): sly, smart and easy idea. (I recognize some would prefer an in-setting blurb as to the “why” on this, though I wasn’t personally bothered by the lack of one.)
Giving the Realms its own planar structure so the Realms were independent of the Great Mess (err, Wheel): absofrigin brilliant idea.
This talk may be somewhat outside the context of this thread, but I think it’s important to recognize that sometimes the Realms gets in its own way. It should receive tweaks from time to time, even if that means jettisoning prior lore for new lore.
If we contrast 3E to 4E, though, I think (hope!) we can agree it is always better when changes are minor and not major; the changes are explained in-setting as much as possible; the explanations should be quick, simple and concise. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 02 Apr 2012 20:51:57 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36863 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2012 : 21:53:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
I can appreciate the sentiment. Seeing things that you care a lot about get changed isn’t always fun.
For me, when I read “willful” I think “deliberate”.
Regarding 3rd Edition, I think many of the deliberate decisions that flew in the face of canon (as it stood at the time) were really good decisions.
Altering the map so it fits on one poster-sized printout: smart, money-saving idea.
Punting on any in-game explanation as to why dwarves have always been able to employ arcane magic (so the race fits with 3E’s concept that all classes are open to all races): sly, smart and easy idea. (I recognize some would prefer an in-setting blurb as to the “why” on this, though I wasn’t personally bothered by the lack of one.)
Giving the Realms its own planar structure so the Realms were independent of the Great Mess (err, Wheel): absofrigin brilliant idea.
This talk may be somewhat outside the context of this thread, but I think it’s important to recognize that sometimes the Realms gets in its own way. It should receive tweaks from time to time, even if that means jettisoning prior lore for new lore.
If we contrast 3E to 4E, though, I think (hope!) we can agree it is always better when changes are minor and not major; the changes are explained in-setting as much as possible; the explanations should be quick, simple and concise.
I'm not even talking about the map, though it and the planar shuffle are good examples. The thing with dwarven magic use was an excellent example, though, since the material was there for an explanation, and they still opted not to explain it. But I was also thinking of things like where an NPC was changed from good to evil, because the author in question felt more evil people were needed. A new NPC could have been created, but it was easier to disregard prior canon.
I object to things like that because in my mind, a well-defined continuity is one of the things that always defined the Realms. Getting away from that gets away from one of the setting's key elements. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 02 Apr 2012 21:56:25 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2012 : 23:03:40
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It was an excellent and on-the-money read.
And his name - Jared Von Hindman - is going on my next Steampunk character.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's not a bad article, but it does make me hope the author doesn't have anything to do with the Realms. The Realms has already suffered from too many creators disregarding canon.
Actually wooly, he seems to be saying he wanted to be as thorough with his research as possible while writing a piece - something he should be applauded for.
And then he specifically says that he ran into the 'Spellplague wall', and realized all the cool characters were dead.
He sounded pretty bummed when he realized all his research lead to a dead-end (literally). Sounds to me like he's on our side.
The advice he gave - ignore canon, or twist it any way you like - was aimed at DMs, which is precisely the same recommendation I (and many others) give. The canon should only be important to those that write more canon - his FB quote of Ed Greenwood also says as much.
"Don't let canon be a burden" - sounds like sage advice to me. I love FR's canon - it's a tool thats there when we need it, and can be ignored when we don't. Its like your dad running alongside your bike right after the training wheels came off - its there to prop-you-up if you need help.
As Icelander points out - what we do with canon, and what the designers should do are two very different things. I can choose to ignore Einstein's theory of relativity, but a physicist can't, or at least shouldn't, or he wouldn't be much of a scientist at all (and in that analogy, designers are FR's physicists). I don't need to know why the tides happen, or the seasons change, or why the sky is blue, but someone making a living from those subjects better. Like all of those phenomena, the canon is there, and comforting, but I can just ignore it when I want. Its not my job to keep track of it all. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Apr 2012 23:06:57 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36863 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2012 : 00:19:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It was an excellent and on-the-money read.
And his name - Jared Von Hindman - is going on my next Steampunk character.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's not a bad article, but it does make me hope the author doesn't have anything to do with the Realms. The Realms has already suffered from too many creators disregarding canon.
Actually wooly, he seems to be saying he wanted to be as thorough with his research as possible while writing a piece - something he should be applauded for.
And then he specifically says that he ran into the 'Spellplague wall', and realized all the cool characters were dead.
He sounded pretty bummed when he realized all his research lead to a dead-end (literally). Sounds to me like he's on our side.
The advice he gave - ignore canon, or twist it any way you like - was aimed at DMs, which is precisely the same recommendation I (and many others) give. The canon should only be important to those that write more canon - his FB quote of Ed Greenwood also says as much.
"Don't let canon be a burden" - sounds like sage advice to me. I love FR's canon - it's a tool thats there when we need it, and can be ignored when we don't. Its like your dad running alongside your bike right after the training wheels came off - its there to prop-you-up if you need help.
As Icelander points out - what we do with canon, and what the designers should do are two very different things. I can choose to ignore Einstein's theory of relativity, but a physicist can't, or at least shouldn't, or he wouldn't be much of a scientist at all (and in that analogy, designers are FR's physicists). I don't need to know why the tides happen, or the seasons change, or why the sky is blue, but someone making a living from those subjects better. Like all of those phenomena, the canon is there, and comforting, but I can just ignore it when I want. Its not my job to keep track of it all.
Um... I'm referring to the article Matt James linked to earlier today. Not sure what you're referring to. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2012 : 01:20:23
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quote:
Wooly Rupert
Um... I'm referring to the article Matt James linked to earlier today. Not sure what you're referring to.
*ahem*
... the Crossing the Grand Canon article linked in this scroll's OP ... |
[/Ayrik] |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2012 : 01:31:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Wooly Rupert
Um... I'm referring to the article Matt James linked to earlier today. Not sure what you're referring to.
*ahem*
... the Crossing the Grand Canon article linked in this scroll's OP ...
Wooly is so dedicated to being off-topic that he often finds it confusing when scribes post something relevant to the title and initial post in a scroll. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2012 : 05:49:35
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Yes, thanks Ayrik.
I hadn't realized we strayed from the topic.
Considering the exchange between you and Matt, I will save myself (and the rest of you) another rant and not even bother to read the second link - something I know ahead of time will just piss me off.
I've already made my decision about 5e Erased huge rant here - guess I didn't need to read it after all.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2012 : 05:58:04
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| Actually, the article Matt links is not specifically D&D or Realms based (it does mention Greyhawk), and it's not written in a comedic tone ... but I thought it was still an excellent read, even though I question the validity of a few of the assumed generalizations. |
[/Ayrik] |
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D&D Outsider: Crossing the Grand Canon
