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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Mar 2012 : 20:58:36
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"Realmslore, the canonical encyclopedia of madness that makes up the Forgotten Realms."
Haha! Awesome.
Still reading... |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3745 Posts |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2012 : 21:07:38
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"My editor and Eric L. Boyd got together, decided that they didn’t like me anymore, and gave me exactly what I was looking for—the fully annotated draft of City of Splendors: Waterdeep. And when I say “fully annotated,” I mean fully annotated. Containing citations for every tiny detail that came from a previously published novel, web page, comic book, supplement, or canonical t-shirt meticulously organized by Eric."
I want this!
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Oh, gee, another "Oh, noes! Canon is undermining my desire to do stuff!" article. 
There's more than one? When was the last one, anyway?  |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 27 Mar 2012 21:09:41 |
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2012 : 21:10:18
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quote:
"My editor and Eric L. Boyd got together, decided that they didn’t like me anymore, and gave me exactly what I was looking for—the fully annotated draft of City of Splendors: Waterdeep. And when I say “fully
annotated,” I mean fully annotated. Containing citations for every tiny detail that came from a previously published novel, web page, comic book, supplement, or canonical t-shirt meticulously organized by Eric."
I want this!
I strongly agree with you on that one. |
Tarlyn Embersun |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2012 : 21:15:41
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Ha! This guy is awesome:
"I swung open the shutters, redeemed Scrooge-like, and breathed in fresh air that had no whiff of Realmslore. With a wave of relief, the creator of the Forgotten Realms canonically said it was okay for me to not take on the Grand Canon in a crazy Rambo-themed suicide mission." |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 27 Mar 2012 21:16:05 |
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2012 : 21:19:52
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So my opinion on this article are two fold
1) Don't feel creatively limited by cannon. Good Idea!
2) Older edition products are too detailed, confusing and scary. Bad Idea! Great way to fan the flames of the edition wars.
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Tarlyn Embersun |
Edited by - Tarlyn on 27 Mar 2012 21:22:01 |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2012 : 21:22:23
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FWIW, this isn't an article about why canon is bad.
It's actually a pretty funny look at what it's like for someone not versed in Realmslore to do research on one topic (in this case Force Gray/The Gray Hands) while working on an article called Stupid Monsters of Dungeons and Dragons.
The author, Jared von Hindman, is apparently a sometime comedian. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 27 Mar 2012 21:23:47 |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2012 : 21:36:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Oh, gee, another "Oh, noes! Canon is undermining my desire to do stuff!" article.
There's more than one? When was the last one, anyway?
The last one (that I recall) resulted in the 4e Realms. No, I am not trying to hate, but this attitude is essentially why they decided to oversimplify Realmslore for the 4e Realms.
I think while well-intended, this article is exactly the wrong type of press that the Realms needs right now. Satire, unless all of the readers know it is satire, can just be destructive. And at this critical juncture I think that what the Realms needs is positive embracing of the entirety of Realmslore. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2012 : 21:41:31
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I'm confused. His whole article implies that there is some relationship between the research he felt he needed to do and that DMs have to do to write games. Yet he writes of having an editor, which implies that he was writing a professional piece set in the Realms. Why should there be any such relationship? That's like saying that kids playing cops and robbers need to conform to the same physical training standards as real police officers.
His final conclusion is that because every DM's campaign is unique, he doesn't have to do all that research. His conclusion does not follow from his premises, not unless he is the first DM I have heard of who employs an editor for his campaign preparation.
The fact that DMs can ignore canon and run their games any way they want does not mean that professional writers can do the same. He's paid to do research and to write things that conform with the work of others in a shared universe. If he doesn't want the job, he should get an easier one, one which does not require him to be able to read.
The 'insane' amount of details he's talking about do not come within an order of magnitude of the amount of details available for any historical period on Earth. How is it that perfectly ordinary people manage to run games set there without going mad?
And does it bother anyone else that the total amount of pages I can see in all the 'insane' amount of material he had to read is somewhat less than what you'd need to read for one weekly exam or paper for one course any college program that isn't a total joke?
I, personally, don't see anything wrong with doing that amount of work to prepare for a whole campaign, which may run for years and will at the very least run for months. I mean, we're talking about a couple of hundred pages, total. It takes a few hours, a couple of evenings at most.
And if someone should not want to do that much work to prepare for his campaign, that's fine too. Well, assuming that his players and him are on the same page, that is. There are all kinds of ways to play role-playing games and some of them require setting consistency and a well-realised world whereas in others these things are not necessary or wanted.
However, he wasn't preparing his own campaign. He was preparing a product to be sold and the audience that he had to worry about was not just his players. Some people may be deligted to pay game designers to have ideas for them, being not at all troubled about the consistency of such ideas or whether they all fitted together.
The way I see it, however, any mumbling idiot has ideas and lots of them. A good idea and a ticket will get you a bus ride. The real work involved in setting creation is developing the ideas while maintaining verisimilitude and consistency. If that is not a priority for the designers, writers and the editors, I can see no value to their product. What they would be selling then would be something I could get for free in any bar or comment section in the world, i.e. random uninformed speculation.
I realise that game designers are not paid a lot of money. I do think, however, that they should have known this beforehand and selected their careers with it in mind. Choosing a profession that involves writing professionally on subjects that demand research and then complaining that you have to do a few hours of research before you turn in an article suggests extreme melodrama or someone who simply has never found it easy to read anything.
In any case, anyone who feels that writing about the Realms demands too much research saddens me greatly. I wonder what people like that do about the real world? It is, as I'm sure everyone realises, quite a bit more complex, if only because we know rather more about it.
How does a reporter deal with it, for example?* If he wants to cover any subject at all, there is likely to be between ten times to several million times as much available on it as there is for the most lore filled area in the Realms.
For that matter, how does anyone manage to vote?** Surely, that involves coming to a reasoned decision on a great variety of subjects, all of which are much richer in written source material on them than any place in the Forgotten Realms.
Now I've gone and made myself maudling. It's a good thing I don't blame anyone personally for this world, or I'd be pretty damn angry at that hypothetical being for filling it with so much stupidity that anti-intellectualism is ceasing to be trendy and beginning to be taken for granted.
*I realise that most reporters deal with this problem by ignoring it and writing up some superficial garbage cribbed from other superficial coverage, with the proportion of reporters who actually have any sort of clue about the subject they are covering being so low that if any truth makes it in there it is by accident and insight and accurate analysis are, like Nellie, mythical creatures. But this just makes me sadder.
**I know, same answer as above, except that people somehow feel smugly self-satisfied about using their own prejudices and ignorance instead of facts and reason, whereas one hopes that there exist at least some journalists who feel an occasional twinge when they realise how little they know about the subjects of their stories. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Edited by - Icelander on 27 Mar 2012 21:42:22 |
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2012 : 21:42:17
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quote:
The last one (that I recall) resulted in the 4e Realms. No, I am not trying to hate, but this attitude is essentially why they decided to oversimplify Realmslore for the 4e Realms.
I think while well-intended, this article is exactly the wrong type of press that the Realms needs right now. Satire, unless all of the readers know it is satire, can just be destructive. And at this critical juncture I think that what the Realms needs is positive embracing of the entirety of Realmslore.
Well the exceptional sad thing about the whole article is that Mr. Baker did state pretty much everything in that article as a reason for 4e realms. Which is why I agree with you that it is very ill timed. |
Tarlyn Embersun |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2012 : 21:46:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Hawkins
Satire, unless all of the readers know it is satire, can just be destructive.
If you can't rely on your readers to figure out that it is satire, then you've pretty much got no hope.
I mean, am I the only one who gets the tongue in cheek nature of the article?
quote:
Originally posted by Hawkins
And at this critical juncture I think that what the Realms needs is positive embracing of the entirety of Realmslore.
I think that's what the article did, actually (albeit in a poking-fun sort of way).
Good satire has an element of truth to it. Nothing wrong IMO with pointing out the Realms is loaded down with lore. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 27 Mar 2012 21:47:44 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2012 : 21:51:36
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| The example given for Eric's annotated draft City of Splendors: Waterdeep promotes him slightly above Christopher Rowe (but not quite as high on the list of numinaries as Grandmaster George Krashos) in my mind when ranking neurotically and exhaustively hyperaccurate Realms authors. I, too, am morbidly intrigued by the offhanded mention of "Steven Schend's unpublished Khelben timeline" - how much of this sort of stuff is floating around? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2012 : 21:56:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
If you can't rely on your readers to figure out that it is satire, then you've pretty much got no hope
....
Good satire has an element of truth to it. Nothing wrong IMO with pointing out the Realms is loaded down with lore.
Unless he means to poke fun at himself and other people like him, I don't find it all that funny.
What he uses as his beginning point, the 'immense' amount of research he had to do, is not a lot of information. I agree absolutely that there has to be an element of truth in satire and that's why I think this doesn't work.
I don't remember playing more than one or two sessions at a time in any setting with less lore than the Realms. This may be because I generally play in some variation of the real world, either an Alternate History one, an Alternate Present, Alternate Future or maybe one with magic or psionics or monsters or something else. All the same, pretty much every time I sit down to play, I am aware that there exist for the geographical area and time of my setting an infinity of sourcebooks. They may be labelled 'history' or some other name, but they are there.
And I have never started a campaign, for any game, at any time, at least not since I was ten years old, with so little reading as what he mentions in the article. Campaigns run for months or years. Preparing them makes them better and more enjoyable. If I was going to be spending a lot of weekends in a cabin over the next few years, I'd probably see a couple of days spent fixing it up as a good investment of my time. Why wouldn't I spend a little time to make my campaign better?
Trying to use the pitiful number of pages he was 'forced' to read as a humourous example to support his idea that the Realms has 'insane amounts' of canon is ridiculous. It's like making fun of fat people by pointing out that you once saw one eat a whole Tic Tac. Yes, it can be funny, but the target of your satire has shifted, because you are, deliberately or not, making fun of yourself and those who hold views similar to you by making outrageously stupid statements in a mocking tone. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
|
Edited by - Icelander on 27 Mar 2012 21:57:58 |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2012 : 22:00:41
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It's just not worth it for me to take things too seriously, all of the time.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I, too, am morbidly intrigued by the offhanded mention of "Steven Schend's unpublished Khelben timeline" - how much of this sort of stuff is floating around?
I too and curious...I mean there's got to be a lot of it out there, sitting in notebooks and old hard drives on at least three continents.
Somebody needs to win the lottery, commission a university library to collect all this stuff and make a grant to said library to display it for all to see, for all of time.
WotC might balk, but let them. In time, they'll come to see the PR value in at least giving their tacit approval to a project of this sort. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 27 Mar 2012 22:03:29 |
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2012 : 22:03:20
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quote:
I too and curious...I mean there's got to be a lot of it out there, sitting in notebooks and old hard drives.
Somebody needs to win the lottery, commission a university library to collect all this stuff and make a grant to said library to display it for all to see, for all of time.
WotC might balk, but let them. In time, they'd come to see the PR value in at least giving their tacit approval to a project of this sort.
I would actually be pretty impressed if a university actually wanted all that stuff. I would also be curious which university it was that accepted it. |
Tarlyn Embersun |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2012 : 22:04:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Tarlyn
I would actually be pretty impressed if a university actually wanted all that stuff. I would also be curious which university it was that accepted it.
I guess it would depend on the size of the grant to the university.
If it was enough to build a whole new wing off of the main research library...
EDIT: On second thought, maybe it's not so far fetched. The University I work at recently purchased someone's entire graphic novel collection. For days I was thumbing through some really awesome stuff I hadn't even seen before, while the staff around my busily cataloged all the works.
Obviously with the Realms content we're talking about notes and miscellany as opposed to finished works, but if the goal is to preserve information and make it accessible to the public (or at least the student body) I think there are probably a few university libraries that might be interested. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 27 Mar 2012 22:11:44 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4692 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2012 : 22:10:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Tarlyn
How do you feel about this article?
http://wizards.com/dnd/files/409_Outsider.pdf
Too long and tedious. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2012 : 22:10:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
It's just not worth it for me to take things too seriously, all of the time.
I find it a lot more work to try to turn off my brain enough to enjoy incoherent and inconsistent storylines set in completely ridiculous worlds than it is to be able to enjoy genuinely good worldbuilding.
Which is why I wouldn't sit through Transformers XXXXXXXX (ad infinitum), Avatar, Battleship, Aliens vs. Cowboys (or Predators, Soldiers or whatever else they want them to fight), Pirates of Whereever It Is Now or similar 'entertainment' unless someone paid me a competative wage commesurate with my education and experience.
Entertainment that demands I exercise constant mental discipline to be able to endure it is not entertainment, it is unpaid and inhumane labour. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2012 : 22:10:24
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quote:
I guess it would depend on the size of the grant to the university.
If it was enough to build a whole new wing off of the main research library...
Maybe fund the liberal arts department for a few years/decades... Yeah I see where you are going with that. Universities are always hard up for cash, or at least the ones I attended. |
Tarlyn Embersun |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2012 : 22:25:40
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I've got literally a ton of heavy RPG print sitting on the shelves of my little library, the majority of it is D&D and the majority of that is Realmslore of one type or another. For me it's a long-term hobby and I often enjoy reading that sort of stuff, I also like being able to reference it whenever needed. For somebody who has no interest in the Realms, correlating or extracting data from that pile would be a considerable undertaking, an unpleasant time-consuming chore.
My programming, electronics, engineering, and science texts easily outnumber (and outweigh) my RPG stuff threefold, and again I'm a freak who actually derives great enjoyment from pouring through books relating to algorithms, code methodology, circuit schema, semiconductor chemistry, manufacturing methodologies, etc. I'll happily write some adhoc code or do some some quick calculus on the fly any time I want to confirm something interesting - although I'm well aware that most people hate tech and math and would need to struggle mightily to work out what I consider trivial answers. I wouldn't be critical of anyone who complains or exaggerates the monumental hardships he faces when trying to work out these "simple" problems using complex tools he barely understands.
Writing and drawing comic books would be an exasperating and nearly insurmountable experience for me, and truth be told, I'm sure the quality of my production wouldn't be at all spectacular or award-winning. It's not an activity I'd ever pursue unless paid handsomely to do so - in which case it's not at all something I really choose to do, it's just a job. I hope mister Jared von Hindman develops some love for Realmslore, or at least has access to those who do. His website and other articles suggest to me that he is far more familiar with D&D than he's comfortable admitting, it's apparent to me this article was only meant to be illustrative, entertaining, and self-satirical. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2012 : 22:51:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
If you can't rely on your readers to figure out that it is satire, then you've pretty much got no hope.
My point exactly. I do not think that he did good job at presenting it as satire. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2012 : 23:14:54
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| The thing I like best about this article is that Ed basically gave a primer on how to properly run a D&D game set in the Forgotten Realms, such that you use Realmslore without letting it overwhelm you. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36863 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2012 : 23:25:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I, too, am morbidly intrigued by the offhanded mention of "Steven Schend's unpublished Khelben timeline" - how much of this sort of stuff is floating around?
It's been shared at least a couple of times here on Candlekeep. If I was at home, I'd pull up the file and provide the info. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 00:03:15
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| It seems you already have shared it, mister Wooly Blue, in this scroll, which also links to this REALMS-L page. But is that the complete document? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36863 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 00:13:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
It seems you already have shared it, mister Wooly Blue, in this scroll, which also links to this REALMS-L page. But is that the complete document?
Well, yes and no... Yes, that's all the unpublished info Steven shared with us, concerning Khelben's timeline. No, because Blackstaff had more info in it, and that novel came out a while after Steven so kindly shared that in. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 00:20:43
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| I firmly believe that the more your character is defined by the rules, the less your character is defined by you. Moreover, the same applies to the setting; sometimes it's good to get back to basics. |
[/Ayrik] |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 00:54:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I, too, am morbidly intrigued by the offhanded mention of "Steven Schend's unpublished Khelben timeline" - how much of this sort of stuff is floating around?
I think SES has done a great job with Khelben's timeline, it hosted on Candlekeep.
http://www.candlekeep.com/library/articles/misc_lore_2004.htm
I particularly like the on/off relationship that he and Laeral have, all those missed opportunities and duty getting in their way stopping them from getting together earlier. A really excellent view of love over hundreds of years
Cheers
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
Edited by - crazedventurers on 28 Mar 2012 00:57:56 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 01:21:54
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I found the article funny. Overly long, which takes the wind out of the comedic timing, but something that still provoked a couple chuckles.
Overall, I can't help thinking, "wow, why is Jared surprised, here?" This is, after all, a highly detailed SHARED fantasy world (i.e. multiple authors, lots of research, etc). I say "highly" rather than "fully," because you could fit as much data as he found here into describing my bedroom at home with just me and two cats in it. What does he think world building is all about?
This data is there for DMs to use, if they want to. If you're building a campaign and you find things that don't make sense to you or are frustrating you, then by all means, ignore them.
It's somewhat different when you're actually writing an actual article for the Forgotten Realms Intellectual Property, where indeed, you have to take the facts and flavor of the world into account because THAT'S YOUR JOB as a designer. If you don't want to steep your work in Realmslore, DON'T WORK IN THE FORGOTTEN REALMS. 
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 01:36:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I firmly believe that the more your character is defined by the rules, the less your character is defined by you. Moreover, the same applies to the setting; sometimes it's good to get back to basics.
I'm not sure I understand.
To me, at least, this seems counter-intuitive. The rules system for an RPG is supposed to work like a language. You use it to express a given character in mechanical terms. His background, nature, pecularities, etc. are all reflected in the different odds he has to perform a given task.
If what you mean is that the rule system shouldn't impose characteristics on the character that does not fit the concept of the character, as proposed by the player and accepted by the DM and other players for that campaign, I agree completely. If, instead, you think that the more descriptive the language which defines the character is, the less input the player has*, I disagree. That's like saying that the more words there are in a language, the less possible it's to write poetry in it.
As for settings, I don't quite follow you either. Are you saying that settings being defined by rules is a bad thing or are you saying that the more settings are detailed, the less the DM has to do?
If the former, pretty much the same thing goes. I don't want a clumsy, antiquated rules system which imposes all sorts of odd artistic considerations on the setting by bringing unneeded baggage to it. On the other hand, I do want a rules system that is capable of defining the setting in a mechanical way, i.e. reflect the nature of unique metaphysics, creatures, conditions, characters and abilities found in it within the mechanical structure of the game and produce a distribution of probabilities that allows me and my players to intuitively make decisions in game-play without forcing metagame thinking.**
If you mean the other, I guess that you're right. I mean, it is, I suppose, axiomatic that the less a setting is detailed, the more the DM has to do. So by that standard, ultimate creative freedom consists of an empty page. Which, I'll add, is always available.
Since a DM can decide on his own whether he'll include a given detail or even whether he'll bother finding out about it, ultimate creative freedom actually exists with or without a published setting and with and without a lot of details for it, though. You can run a WWII game in the real world and include Godzilla, even though he wasn't there in reality and even if no Godzilla movie exists showing him there***. And you can run a Realms game with any changes to the published world that you'd like, too.
Given that a DM can choose not to use details he doesn't like, but if details aren't there, he has no choice but to make them up himself, I'd prefer the option which actually gives me options and makes the product I'm paying for worth anything. That is, the one with details that I can use or not use, depending on whether I like them, rather than the one without them, which amounts to selling me some artwork, a couple of maps and a few ideas which I could have had while doing my daily round of chess with His Nibs, bless his name.
*Which, I'll have to admit, is the way I'd interpret your statement if I were to go purely by the words you wrote. The only reason I doubt that interpretation is that I can't see how that would work.
**I want things to work plausibly enough so that players can think: "What would my character do if he were real, in a world which worked like the setting?" and get answers that make sense and don't penalise them. This demands that the task resolution system has to reflect character capabilities as understood by the player and DM, not to mention being plausible enough to pass for what ought to happen in reality if it had magic and dragons. Needless to say, D&D hasn't done this so far and I doubt it ever will, but that doesn't stop me from playing in settings made for D&D, just using more advanced systems.
***Which I doubt, but what do I know? In any event, if there is such a movie, let Godzilla grognards substitute the War of the Roses. And if they've already made a War of the MegaHouses: Godzilla vs. Lancaster vs. York, all I want to know if why I have not been notified of this atrocity and at what time the destruction of Earth by Vorlons is scheduled. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4458 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 02:45:05
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I thought it was sorta funny at times, and mostly true from a Player, DM, and (I'm assuming) writer's standpoint with the Realms. But as Erik says, that's sorta the task one takes when officially writing in the Realms. That's the job that goes with the title of FR-Author! And really, most writers or publishers of Realmslore often enjoy that kind of immersion into the setting.
What puzzles me is why he felt the need to delve so deeply into ALL the parts of Waterdeep as it's seen from a post-Spellplague view. Does Laeral's possession of the Crown of Horns matter if it has nothing to do with the plot/story of what he's attempting to accomplish? Or the Grey Hand enforcers?
As for Canon itself, I freely admit I was one person who didn't like the Realms being specifically tied to Canon and had wished it to be divorced from novels. With the advent of 4th Edition, the Spellplague, and some of the opinions of the great scribes here, that opinion is now changed. I like Canon as I like how it makes it a shared world. I also like using it as a Old Town Buffet to pilfer, plunder, and mix with how I feel my dinner....er Campaign should be. I still feel that the high detail of the Realms could be knocked down just a tad but thats only because I'd like to see more allocation of resources to other parts and not just the "hot spots".
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D&D Outsider: Crossing the Grand Canon
