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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11695 Posts

Posted - 21 Mar 2012 :  13:03:05  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer


Do these copies have souls, though? That's a really good question for which I have no answer. My guess? Yes, they do.




Personally, I'd prefer they be something akin to a simulacrum. In fact, it would be interesting if the original simulacrum spell were developed after studying deepspawn (or if deepspawn "components" could replace the powdered ruby noted in 3rd edition resources). Of course, the fact that they don't melt away when killed does differ from a simulacrum.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore

1338 Posts

Posted - 23 Mar 2012 :  19:51:51  Show Profile Send Mumadar Ibn Huzal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire

It could be possible that spawn, not being born, are possessed of an unusual and unstable metabolism and simply do not live very long. This would be one way to keep the number of spawn from developing into hordes.


Deepspawn can reach very old age - or older, whatever goes for some 10k years...: There is a surviving Deepspawn from the days of the Spawn Wars in Old Shanatar (~ -9000DR) near Iltkazar.
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore

1338 Posts

Posted - 23 Mar 2012 :  19:58:17  Show Profile Send Mumadar Ibn Huzal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
From my reading on lore regarding Shanatar, I would say that the Spawn given a supply of resources could make a endless amount of copies. As earlier suggested, I would lean towards the idea that the copies are being akin to 1st lvl creatures.

Other interesting note: During and after the Spawn Wars, cloned dwarves were initially seen as a lower caste, but over time were accepted into regular socity and intermingled and interbred with the 'none spawned' dwarves.
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7969 Posts

Posted - 23 Mar 2012 :  20:17:14  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A search found these two scrolls (1 2) and many others discussing deepspawns.

[/Ayrik]
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Razz
Senior Scribe

USA
749 Posts

Posted - 24 Mar 2012 :  16:52:16  Show Profile Send Razz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mumadar Ibn Huzal

From my reading on lore regarding Shanatar, I would say that the Spawn given a supply of resources could make a endless amount of copies. As earlier suggested, I would lean towards the idea that the copies are being akin to 1st lvl creatures.

Other interesting note: During and after the Spawn Wars, cloned dwarves were initially seen as a lower caste, but over time were accepted into regular socity and intermingled and interbred with the 'none spawned' dwarves.



Except, officially according to 3E rules, the spawns do retain levels and abilities. Which means feed a spawn a 20th-level Barbarian and Sorcerer, and instant takeover after a a few years.
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redking
Learned Scribe

131 Posts

Posted - 04 May 2012 :  21:29:49  Show Profile Send redking a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I stumbled on this question while doing my own research on deepspawn. I think it is very clear that deepspawn cannot produce high level NPCs, even if they eat one. Here is the spawning ability text from Lost Empires of Faerun.

Spawn (Ex): A deepspawn is usually encountered with one
to three of its spawn—monsters of CR 4 to 6. Spawn are
fanatically loyal to the deepspawn that spawned them and
willingly fight to the death to defend it. To determine what
kind of spawn accompanies any given deepspawn, roll d% and
consult Table 11–1.

TABLE 11–1: DEEPSPAWN SPAWN
d% Spawn
01–15 Displacer beast (CR 4)
16–30 Minotaur (CR 4)
31–40 Manticore (CR 5)
41–50 Troll (CR 5)
51–60 Digester (CR 6)
61–70 Ettin (CR 6)
71–100 NPC adventurer, level 1d3+3 (see page 110 of the
Dungeon Master’s Guide)

A deepspawn can spawn only creatures identical to those
it has physically consumed. Each spawn possesses even
the learned abilities (such as class level, skills, and
spells known) of the original but retains only
dim memories of its former life. Only Large or
smaller corporeal, living creatures native to
the Material Plane can be spawned. After
spawning, a deepspawn must wait 4d6
days before doing so again.


That makes it clear to me that the cap on a deepspawn's is CR6, and even if it eats a 20th level sorcerer, the copy will only be CR6 maximum.

Deepspawn are certainly able to make copies over and over of the same creature.

Interestingly, LEoF does provide for advancement for deepspawn.

Advancement: 15–27 HD (Huge); 28–42 HD (Gargantuan)

Here starts some of my personal ideas/realmslore for deepspawn.

You could allow for a slightly more powerful spawning ability for the more advanced. In fact, you could say that at a certain amount of hit dice, they have a different maximum cap for CR. For example, a younger or weaker deepspawn might spawn copies with a lower maximum CR cap, and an older more powerful one a higher maximum CR cap.

Here are deepspawn hitdice and maximum allowable CR next to them.

9 HD -CR3
10HD -CR4
11HD -CR5
13HD -CR6
15HD -CR7
28HD -CR8

Below 9 hit dice the deepspawn is either too young or too weak to make copies, though it can certainly eat now and store the genetic information and brain patterns for spawning copies when it is able to do so. In game terms, it does not have the EX ability to Spawn.

These are maximum caps, not minimum caps. So if an 11HD deepspawn ate a CR1 fighter and chooses to spawn a copy, the copy is also a CR1 fighter. If the 11HD deepspawn eats a CR20 fighter, and chooses to spawn a copy, then the copy will be limited to the CR5 cap that applies to 11HD deepspawn, even though the fighter has 'dim memories' of having been an awesome fighter.

On eating habits of deepspawn

Deepspawn are carnivorous, and prefer fresh, preferably living, meat. To be able to copy a creature in the future, the deepspawn must consume the creature no more than 2 hours after death. Otherwise the meat gives the deepspawn nutrition, but not enough remains to make a viable spawn of that creature in the future.

On the genetic viability of deepspawn spawned copies

A deepspawn spawned copy is a 1:1 match for the creature copied. It is thought that the decline in dwarven fertility in the wake of the spawnwars was due to some genetic defect in the deepspawn copies. In fact, this is not true. The problems arose because of the deepspawn copies, but not because of any innate quality that causes hereditary damage.

The decline in fertility among dwarves is the result of effective inbreeding due to the large numbers spawn clones marrying each other, other dwarves, and given long dwarven life spans, even children of certain spawn copies marrying copies of their fathers, half sisters marrying half brothers, and so on. This event greatly decreased the genetic diversity of dwarves, and consequently decreased fertility and gave rise to congenital birth defects.

On using simulacrum to obtain a perfectly controlled deepspawn

It has been tried many times, but it is widely thought that it is impossible to successfully get a simulacrum deepspawn to produce spawn. Many have tried, almost all have failed. A few however know the secret of how to do it successfully.

Most deepspawn encountered are 14HD (the average adult deepspawn), or less. Exceedinly rare are those more advanced deepspawn. Those who know the secret to creating viable deepspawn simulacra know that a simulacrum of a 14HD deepspawn cannot produce spawn, because the simulacrum will only have 7HD, and deepspawn under 9HD cannot produce spawn at all. Therefore a deepspawn of at least 18HD must be found, and a flesh sample obtained. The more powerful the better. The only problem is that deepspawn of that level of power are exceedingly dangerous. The best strategy is a hit and run. Get in, attack, get the flesh sample, and run!

Once that is done, the simulcrum of the deepspawn creates spawn that are in all respects normal, and can be controlled indirectly through control of the deepspawn simulacrum. The simulacrum knows how to create copies of all the creatures the original deepspawn could.

A simulacrum of a deepspawn still needs to be fed large amounts of meat. Alternatively, magical food could suffice if it is suitable for a carnivore. On a normal day it can eat the equivalent of a days meals for 20 humans. On the day before, during, and day after spawning, the deepspawn needs to be fed the equivalent of a days meals for 50 humans. While this can be expensive, the deepspawn can spawn copies of rare creatures and animals, which can be enriching to the business minded adventurers.

END

Just did that on the fly. Thoughts?
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 09 May 2012 :  19:04:45  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
VERY interesting.

I really like your thoughts on 'inbreeding' - nice job.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Razz
Senior Scribe

USA
749 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2012 :  03:38:30  Show Profile Send Razz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Interesting. It does seem that one line does pretty much state the range of CR types of creatures it spawns and even mentions the part on "dim memories" to back it up.

Of course, that would ruin my adventure considering the monsters I've had it spawn were higher than CR 6, but the idea of advanced deepspawns producing more powerful spawn makes perfect sense, too. Even game mechanics-wise, a tougher deepspawn should be able to spawn tougher creatures. Luckily the one I have used in my adventure is a 27 HD deepspawn (1 HD below becoming Gargantuan). I'll have to skew the CR numbers, though, probably CR +1 for every +1 CR the deepspawn gains.

Mainly because I have frost giants as part of its spawn army and they're CR 9. The advanced deepspawn I use is CR 13, so according to the ruling I would use, CR 9 would be it's max.

Edited by - Razz on 30 May 2012 03:39:43
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4211 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2012 :  04:47:42  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here is the result of someone having Deepspawn in a game of mine (hope you don't mind a little fiction).

-----------------------------------------------------------------

THE SCIONS OF AEDEM

Akanax, greatest military power of Chessenta; indeed perhaps it was the greatest military power of the world. Akanax, the city where every man-child was either a warrior or a slave; a city where unfit children were thrown from a cliff and all children were left at least one night in the darkness to prove their body strong enough for the life ahead. It was into this city that Aedem was born.

As soon as Aedem could walk, he was forced to carry a five pound bar of mettle in a makeshift scabbard with him for the rest of his youth. He lived only at night with his mother who taught him how to read and write and ingrained in him the purity of his race and history of his people. During the day, when he was only two years old onward, he would exercise with other children and watch older men practice the use of spear, sword, and archery. By the time he was seven, he never again spoke with his mother except on holy days or when she came to give him gifts to celebrate the Night of Reckoning he had survived when he was first born.

When he was seven he went to live in a barracks with other young men from the city of Akanax who had also reached the age of the First Day. On the First Day Aedem was given a true sword, his very own which the finest weapon maker in all of Akanax had made just for him. His name was inscribed upon it, and to lose it was to lose his soul; for someone to touch it meant that the person must die. The sword was given to him by his father; a man he had only seen in passing, but who now gifted his son with his Life Blade and would be the man responsible for Aedem’s actions until the young man was fit to be worthy to join the legions of Akanax or died in training.

Life in the barracks was hard for Aedem. There was never enough to eat, and so the young men were forced to steal to survive; if caught he would be whipped by his father with a lash that would strip the flesh from his back. This wasn’t done because stealing was wrong, only because Aedem had been caught and made an unworthy thief. By the age of eight Aedem and his barracks brothers would patrol the city and its immediate surroundings to make sure the slaves worked properly and no outsiders went unnoticed. On at least one such patrol the fathers of all the brothers would go with them and each brother would go through the Blooding. Aedem accomplished the task well; the slave never saw him coming and died quickly from the repeated stabbings from Aedem’s Life Blade. Terror was kept among the slaves who outnumbered the warriors of Akanax five to one; though such slavery was not forced on the children of slaves for many of these were in truth sons of the warriors of Akanax.

Aedem also continued to watch the true soldiers of Akanax drill, but would stand in line with his brothers and begin to mock the men standing before them. They were given a staff to use instead of a spear, and when his twelve hours of training and patrolling were done, the young boy would often have to take his night as Shepard for the flocks of animals all around Akanax instead of sleeping. By the time Aedem was twelve years old he was already a better warrior than many so called veterans from other nations or cities; and had already been at war against the slaves for five years. Every year King Hippartes had declared war on the slaves, just as every king before him had done since the yoke of Unther had been thrown off centuries ago.

When Aedem was thirteen he was made a man after choosing his first woman; a ceremony in which he was also gifted by a spear from the woman he chose meaning he had dominion over her life and was sworn to protect her with his own life. Aedem did not live with his woman, but had to sneak to see her when he could. If he was caught his brothers would again set upon him with the very lash his father had used on him as a younger man. Aedem was cunning however, and saw his wife often and began to sire his own children. His own father had sired other children, but these were not Aedem’s brothers, they belonged to other brotherhoods and lived in other places among the many barracks of Akanax.

By the time Aedem was fifteen his lineage was assured and he had sired a son and a daughter. The daughter would be a fine woman for some man in the future, who could properly educate sons, and the boy was nearly old enough to be given his first gift of the iron bar; he was strong and would thrive. Aedem trained daily in the use of spear fighting, learning to become better acquainted at fighting in ever larger groups with other brotherhoods and learned to see them as brothers as well. The close formation Aedem had been learning since his first day as a man eight years ago were so well ingrained within him that there was no thought as the groups he trained with wheeled and marched with such precision that they seemed like a great dragon moving upon the field.

When Aedem turned sixteen King Hippartes, the finest warrior in the entire world, gifted Aedem with his first War Spear and proclaimed Aedem the Master of his barracks. From this moment forward Aedem was considered the oldest brother and was now also the equal of any man within the lands of Akanax; only the King himself lived in a higher station. Aedem’s own father was now an equal and the two conversed as brothers and not as father and son. This same year Aedem led his brothers to the Oracle of the Sun where the Seer of Dark Flame proclaimed a great destiny for Aedem. Aedem and his brothers were anointed by the prophet of Amaunator and given their scarlet and black cloaks by him in great ceremony. The prophet revealed that Aedem must travel the world alone for four years and return to Akanax after this time with the scales of five metallic dragons as testimony to his greatness or die if he should fail.

Aedem led his brothers back to Akanax where he was gifted by the King with weapons and armor of Hizagkuur, the powerful metal that gave the warriors of Akanax the powers of both fire and lightning. Aedem left his home with his spear, shortsword, knife, armor, shield, and cloak; and that was all.

For four perilous years Aedem journeyed in the world of Faerun. He learned many things about the nations of the world and learned the craft of siege warfare among other things. He indeed found and killed one of each sort of metallic dragon also; a large scale from each placed in a pouch at his side. Aedem thrived in the world at large, his mighty battle prowess making him superior to any other soldier he encountered. Those who hired him as a mercenary always placed him as the commander and his fame began to grow. Aedem was known as a cold blooded man however, and many who spouted about honor fell before the relentless fury of the young mans spear; Aedem cared nothing for notions of honor or so called “fair-play” that others talked of. The only duty of a soldier was to attain victory in battle, which was the only proper way to fight.

When at last four years had passed, Aedem’s steps once again had returned him home to Akanax. He went before King Hippartes and laid before him the five scales of the metallic dragons he had slain. The beasts had not all been great wyrms perhaps; but the letter of the Seers decree had been met. King Hippartes concurred.

Aedem was perhaps the finest warrior to ever live in Akanax on his twentieth birthday; his future looked promising and even King Hippartes lauded his prowess as greater even than his own at such an age. Aedem confidently made his way to the Oracle of the Dark Flame to again have audience with the prophet of Amaunator. His life was a great boon to his people, he would perhaps someday be the heir of the King; but such thoughts were not in Aedem’s mind, ambition was not a flaw among the warriors of Akanax.

Upon entering into the chamber of the Dark Flame for the second time in his life, Aedem stood before the prophet; but something was different. Aedem immediately noticed that the prophet no longer had the glowing golden eyes of his previous visit; but instead the black face held eyes of crimson that were so powerful that it was all Aedem could do to stand beneath their gaze. “What have you learned Aedem?”

The question was somewhat odd, but Aedem had an answer “I have learned all that has been set before me to learn. I have learned how to do battle and gain victory. I have learned of my people and their place in the world. I have learned to sire strong children by being strong. I have learned that only military power can prevent others from coveting that which you have and that mere coin is of no value if it can be taken from you.” On and on Aedem recited the things he had learned to be truths in life. Such had been the nature of Aedem’s life that he knew such an open ended question could only be answered by literally answering in full. As he spoke, the prophet began to smile; a thing very unusual among the men of Akanax and never heard of from the prophet.

“That is enough Aedem. You indeed have learned much in your short life. Now listen as I tell you of your future; how your very name will be whispered in awe by all men in the world.” Aedem only stood in silence, no pride welled up in his chest; fate chose who would be great, and usually by no effort on the part of the one so chosen.

“You are one of the first to hear my plans Aedem. I have watched you since the day you were born. Your father and mother were selected by King Hippartes by my direction, for their seeds have combined in you to create a warrior the likes of which the world has never seen. While it is true that you are not the greatest warrior currently alive in the world, you will be. Your dedication and determination cannot be over-matched and you are pure in mind and purpose. Thus, I have chosen you to be the Lord of Legions Aedem. You shall serve as the progenitor of a host which will not be vanquished, a unity of soul that cannot be denied its goals, and a host which will shatter the world if I so order it.” Aedem stood in near awe; such things were spoken by the prophet as if he were a god.

“I am a god Aedem. While I have taught the lessons of Amaunator, I am in truth greater than he. I am Dalor Darden, and in you and I rest the future of this world young man. I will forge a Pantheon of Gods which shall wash away the pettiness which exists in Faerun and bring about a glorious unity that shall stand against things to come; and you Aedem of Akanax shall be the hammer which I wield in so doing. You will be one of those who stand out in history as the name most revered and you will be immortal!”

Aedem began to feel the power of the being before him and could no longer stand before the majesty of the god he knew he would serve for eternity. His body did not fail him however, had the god before him deigned to attack him, Aedem would attempt in futility to defend his life. He spoke only “As is your will my Lord.”

“You have many trials to endure Aedem, but I know you are capable. Rise now, and come with me to your new home.” Aedem stood and was encircled then by shadows of caressing coolness. He could feel his life halt for only the briefest moment and then knew he was in a heavenly realm.

All about him stood beautiful women completely unclad standing next to beds. He stood in a great hall, as large perhaps as the very city he had always called home. “Here is where your trials shall begin Aedem. In this hall your scions will come to be.” Aedem could not comprehend how he could sire so many children. There were at least three hundred women here.

“No Aedem, these women are my priestesses. They are here only to care for your scions as they come here from their place of birth. Look you there above each of the beds.” Aedem did so and could see an open circle of stone that looked as if a tunnel were there that reached into the depths of the wall.

“From those tunnels shall emerge your scions. They shall be born with all the knowledge you now possess Aedem, and they will be glorious to behold!” Aedem immediately felt the shock. This god sought to clone him.

“Your thoughts are known to me and the answer is no Aedem. A single clone would simply be driven mad, and thousands would surely enter into homicidal rages bent on the destruction of everything around them. You will retain your unique soul and will not be lessened. These scions of yours will have their own souls, for I am a god and I will make it so Aedem. After your trials you will continue on and become greater than you are. You will be the Lord of Legions and so you will undergo training which will make even your early life pale in comparison my son.” As Dalor Darden spoke these words, the priestesses around Aedem walked closer. “For this first night you will be honored by all these, my daughters. After you awake in the morning your true trials shall begin.”

The trials had indeed been gruesome, but Aedem had survived; or had he? Aedem could remember only shreds of the things he had endured. Foremost in his memory had been when his Lord had severed his manhood and promised that it would be returned to him when the trials were complete. Aedem could barely remember dying. He wasn’t even sure if he had died. All that was left was some dim memory of some tentacled horror which had feasted upon him. His next memory had been lying whole and alive upon a bed and being attended by his Lords priestesses.

After several days of such treatment Aedem met his first scions. As his master had promised, they were strong and powerful; identical to him in all but two ways: they were all being taught that they were Aedem’s sons and that all of them were eunuchs. They were already being presented with items and a place with which they could forge their own armor and weapons. In the Great Hall of the Legions more and more Scions of Aedem were being “born” every day. Aedem learned from them that they did not know who their mother was, only that they remember a vague sensation of tentacles and sliding down into a bed where they were attended by women of surpassing beauty. After several days, Aedem was brought by a priestess before Dalor Darden.

“How do you feel about the Scions of Aedem my son? They displease you don’t they.” Aedem only nodded. “You feel that they are not human. Well I assure you that they are indeed human Aedem. I can also say that they carry within them a unique soul and are individuals despite their appearance. You will come to know this as a good thing I am sure. Your time here is finished however; you have further trials to endure.” Dalor Darden turned and gestured into the shadows of a corner. Emerging from the corner was a huge man, fully ten feet tall. “This is my true son Zal-Kaeth; he will be your Lord and Master until your trials are done.” Aedem only nodded and said “As you will my Lord.”


EDIT: spacing issues!

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!

Edited by - Dalor Darden on 30 May 2012 04:58:19
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redking
Learned Scribe

131 Posts

Posted - 14 Nov 2013 :  08:07:23  Show Profile Send redking a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Is there any interest in seeing an update of my post about deepspawn? I have some ideas about how many individual creatures that a deepspawn may spawn at once.
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader

USA
2717 Posts

Posted - 14 Nov 2013 :  08:55:29  Show Profile Send Jeremy Grenemyer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Post it up!

The value comes not just from current interest, but from the future needs of others also interested in the topic.

More than once I've searched for something Realms related on Google and found myself directed to an old scroll here at Candlekeep from several years ago that proved to be useful.

Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver).
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 14 Nov 2013 :  15:21:39  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I figure as they age, their abilities increase as well, so they CAN create higher and higher level copies, but it would be a 'law of diminishing returns' thing. In other words, it would work very much like the way experience works for PCs - in order to gain the next 'level' (of creature created), it would have to age a greater and greater number of years.

So basically, the Deepspawn would be getting bigger, and be able to create larger and stronger creatures, but it would have to be TRULY ancient to create something around 15th level, let alone 20th. I tried to do a very simple table using the EP charts from the PH, but it doesn't really work well - not enough of a curve (for instance, if we say the EP are 'days alive' for the Deepspawn, then it would need to be just under 3 years old to create 2nd level creatures, but when we apply that to 20th level, that would mean the Deepspan would only have to be 520½ years old, which isn't nearly long enough (the creature should be approaching the 10K years mark for that!) The 6th-level cap (for the normal, RAW ones) should be around a 100 years, IMO, and then the age requirements should increase dramatically after that.

Also, the higher the level of creature it is creating, the longer it should need to gestate - both of these things would make great limiting factors on what these creatures can do, without having to nerf the living hell out of them. That way, DMs can decide what their Deepspawn can make.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 14 Nov 2013 15:24:48
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redking
Learned Scribe

131 Posts

Posted - 14 Nov 2013 :  16:44:28  Show Profile Send redking a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Markustay - indeed gestation times are what I had in mind.

It makes no sense that it takes the same amount of time to spawn a single rat as an Ettin (4d6
days). I would say that the deepspawn is capable of producing a multiple of creatures of lower CR than it's maximum CR for a single creature.

For example if a deepspawn is capable of producing 6 CR Ettins, then the deepspawn is also capable of producing 48 1/8 CR rats. Put another way, instead of producing 1 Ettin of6 CR it could produce 6 humans of 1 CR.

I also created a new feat (3.5e) for deepspawn.

Cognitive Imposture [General]

Prerequisites: must be a deepspawn. Must have Ex ability to spawn creatures.

Benefit: the deepspawn may choose to take the mind of one creature it is able to produce and put it into the body of another creature that it can spawn, provided that the body can meet the requirements of the class or classes of the newly installed mind.

The body retains all the original mental and physical attributes of the original, and thus may not meet the class requirements of the mind to be installed. For example, a deepspawn may not install the mind of a first level wizard into the body of a rat as the rat does not meet the requirements of being a first level wizard (intelligence is too low for starters).

Deepspawn with this feat use it when they have a particularly favored personality or class type, but want to avoid the attention that having so many people look alike brings. Deepspawn living close to or hidden in urban areas are especially likely to have this feat.

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 14 Nov 2013 :  16:52:08  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Nice feat, i would actually remove the restriction of not allowing a rats mind in a humans body, and vice versa, just because of the interesting possibilities this generates.

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redking
Learned Scribe

131 Posts

Posted - 14 Nov 2013 :  17:05:05  Show Profile Send redking a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I thought about it but allowing it would create mechanical issues that would annoy GMs. Even if a human mind went into the rat, as the feat stands the mental stats stay the same as the body so the human mind would be no smarter than a rat. A rat in a human body would have a severe developmental disorder. Interesting but somehow I don't think that disability issues play a big role in most campaigns (lol).

To head of a potential objection - if I allowed mental stats to go along with the mind to be installed into the new body then the result would be wizards or psions (etc) installed into the bodies of barbarians. It would simply be an optimization ploy rather than the flavourful survival trait for deepspawn that I had in mind.
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader

USA
2420 Posts

Posted - 14 Nov 2013 :  17:32:42  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The original description of deepspawn makes it quite plain : 'The "spawn" have the natural attacks, including spell-like powers, alignment, and intelligence of their forebears, but class abilities and other learned skills are not gained.'

To me this says that duplicating an archmage creates a level 1 duplicate - not another archmage.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
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Posted - 14 Nov 2013 :  20:07:26  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just wondering... have we ever seen anything on how deepspawn spawn NEW deepspawn? Also, if a deepspawn eats another deepspawn, does it gain the ability to spawn what it could? I do like that someone addressed the topic of deepspawn simulacra.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader

USA
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Posted - 18 Nov 2013 :  06:41:50  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I always imagined that there was like a queen deepspawn somewhere that popped out eggs on rare occasions.
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redking
Learned Scribe

131 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2023 :  14:58:40  Show Profile Send redking a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have been thinking about how to manage advanced deepspawn spawning more advanced spawn for a few years, and I think I have figured out a way to do it without it getting out of hand. Here it is.

Spawn (Su): The deepspawn has the ability to reproduce other beings it has consumed a significant part of, for example, a hand of a human or an equivalent body mass. By spending a full-round action, a deepspawn can give birth to one or more spawn, creating creatures of Large size or smaller. The types of creatures that can be spawned include aberration, animal, dragon, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin, and must be native to the Material Plane.

The spawned creatures inherit the alignment of the consumed creature and are inherently friendly towards the deepspawn. Coercing these creatures to attack the deepspawn can only be accomplished through magical means. These creatures also retain all of their skills, class features, and racial abilities, although their memories of their past lives remain hazy.

A deepspawn's ability to create spawn is governed by its Constitution score and its own racial Hit Dice (HD). The total Challenge Rating (CR) of all spawn created in a single spawning cannot exceed this limit. For instance, a deepspawn with a Constitution and HD that allows for a total of 5 CR worth of spawn could create one 5 CR spawn, five 1 CR spawns, or any combination that sums up to 5 CR. For the purpose of this ability, creatures with less than 1/2 CR are considered to have a CR of 1/2.

The deepspawn's spawning ability works by using the original consumed creature as a genetic template. Thus, if a deepspawn consumed a 20th level wizard early in its life, it could initially spawn the wizard at a reduced CR, in accordance with its current spawning capacity. However, as the deepspawn's power increases, it could spawn the wizard at higher CR, up to the maximum allowed by its spawning capacity.

The ability to produce lesser versions of the original creature does not apply to creatures with Racial Hit Dice (RHD). A deepspawn cannot reduce the RHD to create a smaller or weaker version of the consumed creature, as these attributes are inherent to the creature's physical and biological make-up.

Once a deepspawn has created spawn, it enters a cooldown period lasting for 4d6 days, during which it cannot create additional spawn. Once the cooldown period has ended, the deepspawn can use its spawn ability again.

Please refer to the accompanying table for guidelines on the maximum spawn's CR, which is determined based on the deepspawn's racial HD, estimated CR, and minimum Constitution score.


| Deepspawn's HD | Estimated CR | Maximum Spawn's CR | Minimum Constitution Score |
|----------------|--------------|-------------------|----------------------------|
| 14 - 17        | 10           | 5                 | 20                         |
| 18 - 19        | 12           | 6                 | 22                         |
| 20 - 23        | 14           | 7                 | 24                         |
| 24 - 27        | 17           | 8                 | 26                         |
| 28 - 31        | 20           | 10                | 30                         |
| 32 - 33        | 22           | 11                | 32                         |
| 34 - 37        | 24           | 12                | 34                         |
| 38 - 41        | 28           | 14                | 38                         |
| 42             | 30           | 15                | 40                         |



This seems to work well. It scales nicely.

Edited by - redking on 28 May 2023 06:10:28
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Razz
Senior Scribe

USA
749 Posts

Posted - 13 Jun 2023 :  03:01:55  Show Profile Send Razz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by redking

I have been thinking about how to manage advanced deepspawn spawning more advanced spawn for a few years, and I think I have figured out a way to do it without it getting out of hand. Here it is.

Spawn (Su): The deepspawn has the ability to reproduce other beings it has consumed a significant part of, for example, a hand of a human or an equivalent body mass. By spending a full-round action, a deepspawn can give birth to one or more spawn, creating creatures of Large size or smaller. The types of creatures that can be spawned include aberration, animal, dragon, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin, and must be native to the Material Plane.

The spawned creatures inherit the alignment of the consumed creature and are inherently friendly towards the deepspawn. Coercing these creatures to attack the deepspawn can only be accomplished through magical means. These creatures also retain all of their skills, class features, and racial abilities, although their memories of their past lives remain hazy.

A deepspawn's ability to create spawn is governed by its Constitution score and its own racial Hit Dice (HD). The total Challenge Rating (CR) of all spawn created in a single spawning cannot exceed this limit. For instance, a deepspawn with a Constitution and HD that allows for a total of 5 CR worth of spawn could create one 5 CR spawn, five 1 CR spawns, or any combination that sums up to 5 CR. For the purpose of this ability, creatures with less than 1/2 CR are considered to have a CR of 1/2.

The deepspawn's spawning ability works by using the original consumed creature as a genetic template. Thus, if a deepspawn consumed a 20th level wizard early in its life, it could initially spawn the wizard at a reduced CR, in accordance with its current spawning capacity. However, as the deepspawn's power increases, it could spawn the wizard at higher CR, up to the maximum allowed by its spawning capacity.

The ability to produce lesser versions of the original creature does not apply to creatures with Racial Hit Dice (RHD). A deepspawn cannot reduce the RHD to create a smaller or weaker version of the consumed creature, as these attributes are inherent to the creature's physical and biological make-up.

Once a deepspawn has created spawn, it enters a cooldown period lasting for 4d6 days, during which it cannot create additional spawn. Once the cooldown period has ended, the deepspawn can use its spawn ability again.

Please refer to the accompanying table for guidelines on the maximum spawn's CR, which is determined based on the deepspawn's racial HD, estimated CR, and minimum Constitution score.


| Deepspawn's HD | Estimated CR | Maximum Spawn's CR | Minimum Constitution Score |
|----------------|--------------|-------------------|----------------------------|
| 14 - 17        | 10           | 5                 | 20                         |
| 18 - 19        | 12           | 6                 | 22                         |
| 20 - 23        | 14           | 7                 | 24                         |
| 24 - 27        | 17           | 8                 | 26                         |
| 28 - 31        | 20           | 10                | 30                         |
| 32 - 33        | 22           | 11                | 32                         |
| 34 - 37        | 24           | 12                | 34                         |
| 38 - 41        | 28           | 14                | 38                         |
| 42             | 30           | 15                | 40                         |



This seems to work well. It scales nicely.



Interesting, I'll have to save this and use it.

I really wish whoever designed the 3e Deepspawn could give their insight into the intent of the deepspawn features. I feel like it was quickly written down and then hand-waived and not really written with furher clarification.
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redking
Learned Scribe

131 Posts

Posted - 22 Jun 2023 :  16:42:33  Show Profile Send redking a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes. It was left very vague. What I did was find all the lore that I could for deepspawn, and find every product they are mentioned in, and tried to piece together their likely abilities/limitations in 3.5e. It's a pretty cool monster. The Pathfinder version is called the Body Thief.
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