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Razz
Senior Scribe

USA
749 Posts

Posted - 10 Oct 2008 :  03:38:00  Show Profile Send Razz a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Ok, so it's official that Anubis never came to the Realms but did send servants and did (and still does, pre-Spellplague) have a few worshippers (and probably answered by Anubis who's new place is now in the Astral Plane tending to dead deities).

Now, how do the Mulhorandi differentiate between the two deities in Faerun? Because both are described as having jackal-heads when Set should've had the head of a donkey and not a jackal, why this was changed in only the Realms is beyond my udnerstanding? (though, original Set has a head with features of a donkey, aardvark, and jackal but said to be more donkey-like).

So do we have 2 Mulhorandi deities with jackal-heads I assume?

Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore

USA
1291 Posts

Posted - 10 Oct 2008 :  05:16:08  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In my opinion, I don't think this is a problem. The Mulhorandi pantheon sent physical manifestations to Toril. Incarnations in the literal sense of "enfleshed". They had to send these super-avatars of themselves on 2 giant space-arks that traveled across phlogiston, through wildspace and landed on Toril as an end-around the Imaskari god-barrier. One account says they came by the astral. They may have had to do some sort of complicated manoeuvre through the astral along the way in order to accomplish this feat. I don't know for sure.

But we do know that--unlike the other gods in Faerūn--the Mulhorandi and Untheric deities were stuck in permanent avatar form. Anubis was not among them. Anubis would simply not have many worshipers on Toril, if any.

Anubis had long ago been made "Guardian of the Dead Gods" and was tasked with watching over the god-bodies, those islands in the Astral plane (or sea now) that were the corpses of dead gods. His job was to prevent looting and defilement and such. I am not sure if he was even a god still at this point. My guess is that he had been elevated to divine rank 21 or 22 and would be counted as an "overgod" per the 3e rules. As an overgod he would have no need of worshipers, was not really concerned with mortal affairs and would not answer prayers or bestow divine power.

It may be that Set took over Anubis's alias, which might explain how Set came to have a jackal head in the first place, through confusion with Anubis. But that is just speculation.

Perhaps a few plane-savy folks might know of Anubis and his role, but I would think most Mulhorandi do not even know Anubis exists.

But even still, those few who are aware of Anubis probably have no difficulty telling Anubis apart from Set. After all, no one has trouble telling the human headed gods apart. You don't think all jackal headed gods look alike do you?
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 10 Oct 2008 :  05:44:11  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Interesting thoughts Gray.

For me,

Anubis, as the "Guardian of the Dead Gods", presents a unique case in terms of relations to the FR cosmology in 3e. As it is, I wouldn't think he'd have much purchase in the Realms nor with the Mulhorandi pantheon because we know Anubis "ascended" [by giving up his divinity] to his unique divine position before the Mulhorandi pantheon had properly established themselves in Faerūn.

If there is a Realms Anubis, I think he/it would still be divorced from the actual conception of Anubis as in the core D&D cosmology -- an Realmsian interpretation for the Great Tree could be just as applicable, and could have developed [or rather come to be] after the Mulhorandi pantheon gained influence in Realmspace.

Another possibility is... If the Mulhorandi pantheon came from elsewhere, and we know they still did, there's no reason some variation of Anubis didn't get dragged along as well. For example, Ptah never made it to the mainland of Toril, but was worshipped by Faerunian Spelljammers, and was instrumental in helping the Mulhorandi pantheon make their move. Anubis could have a very similar story.

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Ardashir
Senior Scribe

USA
544 Posts

Posted - 10 Oct 2008 :  16:13:50  Show Profile  Visit Ardashir's Homepage Send Ardashir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmm, maybe Kelemvor appears as a jackal-headed man to his Mulhorandi worshippers?

And since my version of the Realms has some lupins in it, they would certainly worship Anubis. After all, he at least looks like them...
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Razz
Senior Scribe

USA
749 Posts

Posted - 10 Oct 2008 :  21:41:09  Show Profile Send Razz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The information I found that shows proof of Anubis still in the Realms are from these two sources (one official and one semi-official):

http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0204c&L=realms-l&D=1&H=1&P=8322 by Thomas Costa

and

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a

Seems Sean K. Reynolds also mentions him as jackal-headed, so there is two it seems.
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The DMs Revenge
Acolyte

USA
27 Posts

Posted - 18 Apr 2023 :  03:55:46  Show Profile  Visit The DMs Revenge's Homepage Send The DMs Revenge a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ironically, i cast Thread Necromancy.
quote:
Originally posted by Razz

The information I found that shows proof of Anubis still in the Realms are from these two sources (one official and one semi-official):

http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0204c&L=realms-l&D=1&H=1&P=8322 by Thomas Costa


Does anyone have the information from the above link backed up? If so, I'd love to see it.

Wayback Machine sufficed for the other link: https://web.archive.org/web/20110412072630/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a

Thanks all.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6657 Posts

Posted - 18 Apr 2023 :  09:21:24  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Do you know what the article was named?

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7981 Posts

Posted - 18 Apr 2023 :  10:19:00  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
... The Mulhorandi pantheon sent physical manifestations to Toril. Incarnations in the literal sense of "enfleshed". They had to send these super-avatars of themselves on 2 giant space-arks that traveled across phlogiston, through wildspace and landed on Toril as an end-around the Imaskari god-barrier. One account says they came by the astral. They may have had to do some sort of complicated manoeuvre through the astral along the way in order to accomplish this feat. I don't know for sure.

I don't know for sure, either. But - a little off-topic - it is possible to move spelljammers through the astral. Githyanki and Gith pirates can do it with certain ships. The Elven Armada can't do it but certain individual elven captains probably can. And then of course there's all sorts of possibilities with certain spells, artifacts, and magics which ignore the normal rules.

I also offer another possibility. The Earth pantheon may have been assisted in reaching Toril with the cooperation of one or more local deities.

Although Spelljammer (and Planescape) rules already offer an easy answer. Once enough believers of a deity/power arrive at a place in enough numbers (and levels) for enough time, the deity/power itself will invariably manifest with true divinity in that place.

[/Ayrik]
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6657 Posts

Posted - 18 Apr 2023 :  11:12:52  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Do you know what the article was named?

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6360 Posts

Posted - 18 Apr 2023 :  12:44:43  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm guessing it was an article called Ancient Gods

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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
968 Posts

Posted - 18 Apr 2023 :  22:28:12  Show Profile Send TomCosta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Ancient Gods piece was my fan product, but it was the product that led to Eric nicknaming me Marduk 3 times in Demihuman Deities credits and something he used to set up the relationship between Bahamut and Marduk in Dragons of Faerun. PM me, and I'm happy to send anyone the Word file.
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The DMs Revenge
Acolyte

USA
27 Posts

Posted - 18 Apr 2023 :  22:39:21  Show Profile  Visit The DMs Revenge's Homepage Send The DMs Revenge a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta

The Ancient Gods piece was my fan product, but it was the product that led to Eric nicknaming me Marduk 3 times in Demihuman Deities credits and something he used to set up the relationship between Bahamut and Marduk in Dragons of Faerun. PM me, and I'm happy to send anyone the Word file.



PM sent!
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The DMs Revenge
Acolyte

USA
27 Posts

Posted - 18 Apr 2023 :  22:51:12  Show Profile  Visit The DMs Revenge's Homepage Send The DMs Revenge a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I don't know for sure, either. But - a little off-topic - it is possible to move spelljammers through the astral. Githyanki and Gith pirates can do it with certain ships. The Elven Armada can't do it but certain individual elven captains probably can. And then of course there's all sorts of possibilities with certain spells, artifacts, and magics which ignore the normal rules.



Isn't that mostly in 4e, which sorta doesn't count? (not necessarily because its 4e, but because the setting specifically uses Spelljammers on the Astral Sea) Though to be fair, in the novel Finder's Bane, they take a spelljammer through a gate and fly it across the Outlands - which seems off to me.

Edited by - The DMs Revenge on 19 Apr 2023 02:39:45
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11772 Posts

Posted - 19 Apr 2023 :  03:04:46  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
One thing to note about the animal heads of the deities in the realms specifically. Powers and Pantheons specifically points out that there was a brief period in which beast cults held sway, and part of me wonders if the mulan gods didn't subsume some of the beast lords and take on their aspects.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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The DMs Revenge
Acolyte

USA
27 Posts

Posted - 19 Apr 2023 :  04:10:57  Show Profile  Visit The DMs Revenge's Homepage Send The DMs Revenge a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

One thing to note about the animal heads of the deities in the realms specifically. Powers and Pantheons specifically points out that there was a brief period in which beast cults held sway, and part of me wonders if the mulan gods didn't subsume some of the beast lords and take on their aspects.



I believe Gary Dallison included this idea on his Alternate Forgotten Realms website, and I've (after reading that) incorporated similar ideas into my home game using versions of Ed's Beast Cult patrons from Dragon #54.
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7981 Posts

Posted - 19 Apr 2023 :  07:24:21  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The DMs Revenge

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I don't know for sure, either. But - a little off-topic - it is possible to move spelljammers through the astral. Githyanki and Gith pirates can do it with certain ships. The Elven Armada can't do it but certain individual elven captains probably can. And then of course there's all sorts of possibilities with certain spells, artifacts, and magics which ignore the normal rules.



Isn't that mostly in 4e, which sorta doesn't count? (not necessarily because its 4e, but because the setting specifically uses Spelljammers on the Astral Sea) Though to be fair, in the novel Finder's Bane, they take a spelljammer through a gate and fly it across the Outlands - which seems off to me.

My references are all 2E. I am not a 4E fan.

[/Ayrik]
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The DMs Revenge
Acolyte

USA
27 Posts

Posted - 19 Apr 2023 :  13:50:14  Show Profile  Visit The DMs Revenge's Homepage Send The DMs Revenge a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

My references are all 2E. I am not a 4E fan.


Ah, good. Its hard enough getting lore and mechanics to agree without jumping cosmological models or editions.
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The DMs Revenge
Acolyte

USA
27 Posts

Posted - 19 Apr 2023 :  13:55:54  Show Profile  Visit The DMs Revenge's Homepage Send The DMs Revenge a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

My references are all 2E. I am not a 4E fan.



I don't want to let this turn into a 4e complainfest, but...

While I'm generally not a fan of 4e either, I've been reading various 4e Core books for ideas to steal lately, and I have to say that, as an employee of a major coporation, most of the really irksome changes we see in 4e feel to me like they're handed down from "management". There's a lot of good details and work in 4e that was clearly done by folks who really loved the game/setting.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6360 Posts

Posted - 19 Apr 2023 :  14:25:29  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The DMs Revenge

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

One thing to note about the animal heads of the deities in the realms specifically. Powers and Pantheons specifically points out that there was a brief period in which beast cults held sway, and part of me wonders if the mulan gods didn't subsume some of the beast lords and take on their aspects.



I believe Gary Dallison included this idea on his Alternate Forgotten Realms website, and I've (after reading that) incorporated similar ideas into my home game using versions of Ed's Beast Cult patrons from Dragon #54.



I did indeed, and I got the idea from the piece about the beast cults as a way of explaining their current appearance.

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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
968 Posts

Posted - 20 Apr 2023 :  02:43:49  Show Profile Send TomCosta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The DMs Revenge

quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta

The Ancient Gods piece was my fan product, but it was the product that led to Eric nicknaming me Marduk 3 times in Demihuman Deities credits and something he used to set up the relationship between Bahamut and Marduk in Dragons of Faerun. PM me, and I'm happy to send anyone the Word file.



PM sent!



I didn't get a PM. PM me your email and I'll send it over.
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The DMs Revenge
Acolyte

USA
27 Posts

Posted - 20 Apr 2023 :  11:53:11  Show Profile  Visit The DMs Revenge's Homepage Send The DMs Revenge a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta

quote:
Originally posted by The DMs Revenge

quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta

The Ancient Gods piece was my fan product, but it was the product that led to Eric nicknaming me Marduk 3 times in Demihuman Deities credits and something he used to set up the relationship between Bahamut and Marduk in Dragons of Faerun. PM me, and I'm happy to send anyone the Word file.



PM sent!



I didn't get a PM. PM me your email and I'll send it over.



Weird - can't imagine how i managed to screw that up. 2nd try sent.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11772 Posts

Posted - 21 Apr 2023 :  14:50:56  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The DMs Revenge

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

One thing to note about the animal heads of the deities in the realms specifically. Powers and Pantheons specifically points out that there was a brief period in which beast cults held sway, and part of me wonders if the mulan gods didn't subsume some of the beast lords and take on their aspects.



I believe Gary Dallison included this idea on his Alternate Forgotten Realms website, and I've (after reading that) incorporated similar ideas into my home game using versions of Ed's Beast Cult patrons from Dragon #54.




In MY personal forgotten realms, I have it that the 3 goddesses of Rashemen are NOT what people say (i.e. Bhalla is NOT Chauntea, Khelliara is NOT Mielikki, and the Hidden One is NOT Mystra). They are primordial like entities to a degree or more like the great spirits of Anchorome. Bhalla is a cow like being, and the Rus believe her to be Audumbla.... or Audum-Bhalla.

Why do I mention this? Well, its noted that the Mulan gods look down on Hathor and don't treat her the same. They also never gave any stats for her manifestation. My take is that Hathor and Bhalla actually merged at some point, possibly during the orcgate wars. This merger was a willing action, but its been covered up. I suspect that the other beast cults might have also been great spirits worshipped by the people of Raumathar/Shemen/Rashemen, and that their worship was brought into Mulhorand due to their involvement with the mercenaries they used in the orcgate wars. Similarly, Bast combined with Felidae the cat goddess. Unfortunately, maybe the other Mulan gods (Horus and Set) were less willing to combine "nicely" with the spirits of a great hawk and the wily, opportunistic jackal and they "took" their power.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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The DMs Revenge
Acolyte

USA
27 Posts

Posted - 21 Apr 2023 :  14:59:20  Show Profile  Visit The DMs Revenge's Homepage Send The DMs Revenge a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvasIn MY personal forgotten realms, I have it that the 3 goddesses of Rashemen are NOT what people say (i.e. Bhalla is NOT Chauntea, Khelliara is NOT Mielikki, and the Hidden One is NOT Mystra). They are primordial like entities to a degree or more like the great spirits of Anchorome. Bhalla is a cow like being, and the Rus believe her to be Audumbla.... or Audum-Bhalla.

Why do I mention this? Well, its noted that the Mulan gods look down on Hathor and don't treat her the same. They also never gave any stats for her manifestation. My take is that Hathor and Bhalla actually merged at some point, possibly during the orcgate wars. This merger was a willing action, but its been covered up. I suspect that the other beast cults might have also been great spirits worshipped by the people of Raumathar/Shemen/Rashemen, and that their worship was brought into Mulhorand due to their involvement with the mercenaries they used in the orcgate wars. Similarly, Bast combined with Felidae the cat goddess. Unfortunately, maybe the other Mulan gods (Horus and Set) were less willing to combine "nicely" with the spirits of a great hawk and the wily, opportunistic jackal and they "took" their power.



Nice. I have a similar possible hearsy/plot in my game, where the Beast Cult peoples invaded Mulhorand (putting the 2 sets of "gods" into conflict) and, while most of the Mulhorandi gods defeated (and absorbed) the Beast Cult gods, Hathor was defeated and subsumed by the cow/cattle god (Ed used Nuru-ah, i use the name Bos), which is why the rest of the pantheon treats her like crap.

Edited by - The DMs Revenge on 21 Apr 2023 15:00:27
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