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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3766 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 05:54:25
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| -That Unread city, that's from Open Grave? |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 15:14:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-That Unread city, that's from Open Grave?
Just so.
Not officially a Forgotten Realms source, but snuck in there by Candlekeep's own Brian R. James, for scribes and scholars to do with what they will.
All names have been changed slightly to protect the guilty and DMs who dislike the idea are therefore by no means bound to acknowledge this as being even close to canon. But it is something that Brian believes to be a plausible consequence of Tan Chin's rise and fall. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 16:56:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
What's the problem with the son of the Emperor coming to power? That's how dynastic succession works.
Some kind of upheaval, and "we'd" be complaining about how the new designers purposefully 'ruin'be everything by trying to put their own special touch on everything.
I've said this a hundred times, and I will say ti again...
I am a DM FIRST - I need stuff I can use. A boring, atypical ascension, with no political problems or clandestine activities is not interesting enough for an RPG setting.
LK - you saw how I spun things in the K-T thread. Tan-Chin returns (taking-over the son of the emperor), and a three-way war breaks out in Tu-Lung (which the box-set books set the entire region up for... why hasn't this happened?) Tan-Chin marches across the border and occupies the Karatin (sp?) province while their army is busy fighting in the civil war, and 3 sides of Tu-Lung are then forced to work-together to try and oust Shou from their country (which is falling apart around them). The three sides are the Sea-Lords (of Karatin), and the twin sons of the old Emperor.
By the time of the new setting (1479 DR), Tan Chin has re-taken all of Tu-Lung (its consider occupied and VERY hostile) - PERFECT for an RPG!!!) has become a "hero of the People" (in Shou-Lung proper), and has revealed himself as the "Hero-Emperor of Old returned" (claiming to have been 'reborn', when in actuality he is possessing the Prince's body).
How is that NOT more interesting then NO conflict and normal (unconflicted) ascensions of rulers? The whole region is a powder keg, and yet... it just sits there smoldering for more then a century. I don't want more adapted RW history - I want a unique fantasy setting people want to PLAY IN.
This is why I had no problem with what WotC was 'shooting for' with 4e - certain regions needed to be fixed (made more interesting to gamers). I think they dropped the ball (BIG time), but I am still behind their original premise. I think they just went about it wrong, and focused on the wrong regions.
They have an entire sub-continent ruled by a group (Shou-Lung) who's name literally means "Followers of the Dragon", and they put dragon-rulers everywhere but there. Drop the ball? They couldn't even find the damn ball!
They get rid of something unique - a citystate (Airspur) ruled by a half-orc - and replaced it with genasi... which they also stuck down in Calimshan (which is fine - ALL OF THEM should have gone there!) Why? Because the word 'Air' was in there and they thought that would be 'kewl'? It was as if the new setting was designed by people who were completely clueless about the old setting, and couldn't agree on what to change, how to change it, and where to put the 'new stuff'. You can't just take a hundred good ideas, shake them up in a bag, and pour them out over a map - you wind-up with a complete mess. Did they even bother to look at what they replaced with new Airspur? It was probably the most interesting thing on the south shore of the SoFS. But I doubt they even researched it (that would require reading what others wrote - heaven forbid!)
I want TWO things from a setting - I want it to make sense (continuity is KEY), and I want it to be interesting, everywhere, without unnecessary redundancy. Having absolutely NO turmoil in a region that is a 'powder keg' may seem to follow the first rule (it makes a certain sense), but it certainly doesn't make it any more interesting then it was in 1e - they added on a century of time, and nothing else. If anything, all they did was obliterate the current plot-hooks, without providing new ones.
I gave-up on trying to make sense of FR's convoluted history; so long as people don't respect what has gone before, and re-write old lore (retcons) willy-nilly, there is no point in even pretending there is a setting continuity. I applaud Icelander's efforts - really, I do... but I feel its a futile effort. Whatever he writes today, can be un-done tomorrow by an article.
I had lots more here, but this is Icelander's thread, and I don't want to take from it. I stopped doing a 'history of the World' when 4e came out, and he will probably do the same when 5e is released, but in the mean-time he should enjoy himself (as I once did).  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 21:50:40
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I am also a game master rather than merely a passive consumer of Realmslore, but I differ from Markustay in what I think is useful to me.
For one thing, if too much of the world is going through a crisis, has just gotten over a crisis or is anticipating a crisis, trade stops. And if trade stops, the economy grinds... not to a halt, but down to an early Stone Age level. A city state of 20,000 trading only internally couldn't support itself. Even a nation of millions will have to spend a depressing amount of its total revenue only on feeding those millions if they aren't trading worldwide with a lot of other millions.
And a lot of good stories depend on the existence of great wealth somewhere. On there being trade routes where fortunes are made and lost. On there being enough economic surplus to support specialists like scholars, wizards, merchants and those who prey on them, professional warriors other than holders of fiefs who work full-time defending them, etc.
There are periods in human history where wealth was having clothing warm enough to survive the night and stored food enough to make it plausible that the family would be able to gather food for another meal. I really don't want to make that the standard for a setting, because it's easy enough to have some parts of it sunk into subsidence-living by a cessation of trade there without having all the world be limited to such a state.
As described by Ed Greenwood, it was plausible that enough trade could be going on to pay for all the luxuries like a large middle-class of potential adventurers and swords and good steel armour available to others than great nobles. But every Realms Shattering Event that takes place is one more strike against the lifeblood of the Realms, the international trade that stops it from being a medieval setting.
Because a medieval setting, a real one, wouldn't be anything like what most people assume. Roleplaying there could be fun, but it wouldn't be anything close to D&D standards or anything Realmsian.
In the world of 4th edition Realms, living standards along the Inner Sea ought to be so much worse than in the 1360s and 1370s that the difference is comparable to living standards in the modern US vs. modern Russia. I really don't want to make them any worse by nuking the only stable and rich trading partner left in the world. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3766 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 23:37:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I am a DM FIRST - I need stuff I can use. A boring, atypical ascension, with no political problems or clandestine activities is not interesting enough for an RPG setting.
-Nine times out of ten, generic hereditary succession without hitch is what happens. Look at the chronology of various royal lineages in AGHotR. When you have too much turmoil, that becomes unrealistic, or at best, a repetitive trope that loses a lot of it's impact. Another coup? Alright, whatever.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I want TWO things from a setting - I want it to make sense (continuity is KEY), and I want it to be interesting, everywhere, without unnecessary redundancy. Having absolutely NO turmoil in a region that is a 'powder keg' may seem to follow the first rule (it makes a certain sense), but it certainly doesn't make it any more interesting then it was in 1e - they added on a century of time, and nothing else. If anything, all they did was obliterate the current plot-hooks, without providing new ones.
-Why does there have to be climactic change? I see no reason why there should be any, through a 100+ year jump in the timeline, or Spellplague. Reasonable, organic change is what I want, and what I think most people want. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 11 Mar 2012 23:40:24 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 23:42:04
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And let's not assume that just because we know that the emperor who succeeded the eight Emperor Chin of the Kuo dynasty was his son that the succession was necessarily easy or trouble free. Indeed, all other sources we have tell us that Shou Lung had been having trouble for almost a half century before that succession and I find it plausible to assume that at least two and possible more provinces have been more or less thrown into anarchy by the 1360s and 1370s.
This isn't uninteresting, peaceful and without adventuring possibilities. It's just not quite End-of-the-World-as-We-Know-It. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3766 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2012 : 22:08:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
And let's not assume that just because we know that the emperor who succeeded the eight Emperor Chin of the Kuo dynasty was his son that the succession was necessarily easy or trouble free. Indeed, all other sources we have tell us that Shou Lung had been having trouble for almost a half century before that succession and I find it plausible to assume that at least two and possible more provinces have been more or less thrown into anarchy by the 1360s and 1370s.
-And, if nothing else, with a run-of-the-mill no hassles ascension, all of the plotting and scheming behind the scenes can further crescendo and reach an more fevered boiling point. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2012 : 14:36:11
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Or, for people playing in time periods well before it, it can represent either a goal to work toward or something to prevent.
Having a son of the eight Emperor Chin assume the Jade Throne in a couple of decades doesn't really guarantee that by that time, the Chukei and Ma' Yuan provinces will be a part of the Empire or that if they are, they'll be inhabitable. Nothing about the hand-off implies that the undead that used to belong to Tan Chin have been defeated or that they will be in the near future.
In fact, the mere fact that this Emperor is the ninth Emperor Chin and the son of the eight one does not preclude him being possessed by Tan Chin or his body playing host to one of the Nine Immortals to oppose that eternal foe of Shou Lung.
Nothing much is invalidated. As Walter Sobchak so memorably tells us: "Nothing is ____ed here. Nothing is ____ed."
In any case, the Empire of Shou Lung plays a role in my campaign more as a source of trade goods and a market to sell others. Who sits on the throne doesn't actually impact that much, as long as that person is not a complete mouth-breathing* lunatic.
The descent of large trading powers into apocalyptic wastelands or paranoid fortresses of solitude just serves to make a campaign setting less varied, less wealthy and less interesting. Sure, I guess that such a place could be a 'cool' adventuring locale, if you were to ignore the fact that after a complete collapse of the economic foundations of all nearby powers, the most adventurous thing any of them would be capable of sponsoring would be trying to find the next meal.
I mean, Tolkien wasn't exactly an economics major, but at least he had the sense to have the lands surrounding fallen Moria be almost a wasteland. Why? Because those were the lands that once survived in a symbiotic trade relationship with it. Moria falls and boom, it's the end of their world as they know it.
To an extent, all dungeon-crawling-friendly settings must be post-apocalyptic settings. I get that. It's the only economic model where it makes sense to loot ruins as a profession.
But there is an important distinction to be made here. The fun and interesting looting happens after the apocalypse ends and the rebuilding is far enough advanced that the current economy can afford to gamble some of their surplus on potential payoffs that might never turn up. Having Thay or Shou Lung be controlled by tyrants and slowly falling into anarchy is the start of the apocalypse, not a post-apocalyptic world.
Some people like to play during an apocalypse that their characters realistically have no way of stopping. There are some fine settings out there for that kind of thing. Lucifer's Hammer, the book, can be adapted into a setting pretty easily, being set in the real world.
But I don't really want my fantasy setting to turn into one. And I think that after nuking the Akanul, Greenlands of Unther, Mulhorand and Thay (together the breadbaskets of the Inner Sea as well as major economic powers), the Realms are close enough to total collapse into centuries of darkness that an equivalent collapse in the east would ensure that almost no part of it retained any culture beyond local warlordism.
*Or worse, not-breathing. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3766 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2012 : 22:19:03
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| -Implications and details regarding trade are, I think, what make the Forgotten Realms stand out from other, run-of-the-mill, generic fantasy fantasy settings. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2012 : 01:05:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Implications and details regarding trade are, I think, what make the Forgotten Realms stand out from other, run-of-the-mill, generic fantasy fantasy settings.
I agree and I wish Ed had been allowed to give that subject the attention it deserved. I know he proposed a sourcebook detailing trade routes and suchlike.
The small tidbits on trade in Power of Faerun suffer a lot for being written to fit into the level-based paradigm of D&D rules for everything.
I started my Realms campaign with two characters, a thief in good standing with a small guild in Saerloon and his strong swordsman cousin from the Thunder Peaks (near the High Dale) come to the big city to visit him.
In short order, they had taken berths on a privateer vessel and had many adventures around the Inner Sea. Without it ever being planned, the wealth they gathered from captured pirate vessels was invested into goods they could carry on their own ship and sold in other ports. After a while, they were making more money from trade than they were taking loot in battle. From that, it was a pretty natural development for the crew of their small raker to pool their wealth and buy more ships, warehouses and cargo.
The players found themselves governing a merchant house.
I think that being a soldier of fortune seeking wealth and fame kind of naturally translates into mercantile pursuits, whether in real life, science-fiction or fantasy. Han Solo carried cargo in the Millenium Falcon. Sure, it was illegal (or at least untaxed), but it was still trade goods. Haviland Tuf, Nicholas van Rijn, David Falkayn; all great adventurers and all traders. |
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Tim_Eagon
Acolyte
2 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2012 : 05:30:20
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Howdy, I'm the author of the "Ecology of the Hengeyokai" article featured in Dragon 404; the principal focus of the article was the hengeyokai race itself, but I decided to include some references to Kara-Tur lore (I didn't have a lot of word count to spare, so I didn't really go into any great detail, it was more of a survey based on where the hengeyokai are concentrated). While researching the article, my primary source was the 1e Kara-Tur box set. I went through both books in the set page by page and found every reference to hengeyokai; I think that I touched upon almost every one of them in my article. When I was actually writing the article, I tried to logically extrapolate information from the box set, the GHotR, and the 3e and 4e FRCS books (I was aware of Markustay's thread, but I didn't read it). While I didn't go into it very much, I hope I made it clear that things were not hunky-dory in Shou Lung after the Spellplague; it was the loyalty of Sheng Ti's hengeyokai and spirit folk population that prompted the ninth Emperor Chin to make his declaration in 1396 DR allowing them into the mandarinate.
FYI, while Icelander didn't mention it, I basically had Godzilla (or actually Godzillas) blow up Wa and plunged Kozakura back into civil war. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2012 : 18:28:43
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Not what I would have done, but at least you gave it a go, so kudos for that.
I have to now wonder if my thread may be self-destructive - people can't use similar ideas simply because I could claim they were taken from me... hmmmm.. definite double-edged sword there. I hadn't counted on that. 
Regardless, I went the same way with 'other races' and acceptance. Its kinda hard to imagine a fantasy setting (based on D&D) that doesn't practice some level of 'equality', so it just makes sense. They need to move away from their Imaskari origins - looking down at other sentient creatures - and go there own way.
The Godzilla-thing is a bit heavy-handed for my taste, but I totally agree with the unnecessary redundancy of two Japans. I did the civil-war thing as well, but kept Wa as a totalitarian isolationist state. I didn't want to squash the Spelljammer lore as you did, but since I don't really care for SJ, I can live with that.
Regardless, thanks for paying attention to an area that receives little love. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 18 Apr 2012 18:30:25 |
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Tim_Eagon
Acolyte
2 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 01:40:29
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| Wa still exists (I was speaking colloquially when I said "blow up"); technically I wrote that a wave of gargantuans devastated Wa (hey there's an a whole island of them just off the coast!). I didn't address SJ in any direct fashion; while I like a lot of SJ, I did not like the connection between campaign settings/crystal spheres. |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1607 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2015 : 15:30:41
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| Ressurecting this thread: have anyone mentioned the Double Diamond Triangle Saga? I think it is related with Kara-Tur, have anyone read it? |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2015 : 15:41:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
Ressurecting this thread: have anyone mentioned the Double Diamond Triangle Saga? I think it is related with Kara-Tur, have anyone read it?
It's been in my "need to read" list for a while, but I've never managed to motivate myself to actually read it.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2015 : 16:00:35
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I know one book has to do with the Utter East (and its REALLY weird). Don't know anything about the others.
EDIT: Looking back over this, I don't know why I was so pissy. There is no reason why Tan Chin isn't possessing the body of the current emperor. In fact, having him keep it a secret might make more sense then the way I was spinning things (in light of other K-T lore that has sprung-up since the K-T thread). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Aug 2015 16:05:00 |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1607 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2015 : 17:19:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I know one book has to do with the Utter East (and its REALLY weird). Don't know anything about the others.
(...)
What do you mean by weird, here? What happened? By the way, who's Piergeiron's bride, in these books? I've read in a 2e reference that Alicia of the Moonshaes would be his bride...
EDIT: I misread the reference, it only says that there were rumors saying that he was "seriously smitten" by her in her coronation. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 20 Aug 2015 17:25:05 |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2015 : 21:35:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
Ressurecting this thread: have anyone mentioned the Double Diamond Triangle Saga? I think it is related with Kara-Tur, have anyone read it?
I've been trying to get my hands on these books, but it's difficult. I know the general plot though, as well as the fact that they're officially considered not canon. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2015 : 21:55:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I know one book has to do with the Utter East (and its REALLY weird). Don't know anything about the others.
(...)
What do you mean by weird, here? What happened? By the way, who's Piergeiron's bride, in these books? I've read in a 2e reference that Alicia of the Moonshaes would be his bride...
EDIT: I misread the reference, it only says that there were rumors saying that he was "seriously smitten" by her in her coronation.
You can read more about it in THIS THREAD - that particular book was Faces of Deception. That doesn't get into the 'weirdness', though, I don't think. IIRC, Piergeiron was married, A 'pretty' Yak-woman ambassador was in Waterdeep, one of the kingdoms had a very Cthulhuesque thing going on (people born with misshapen limbs, etc), and another had a VERY strange, Indianesque 'third Eye' thing... LITERALLY. People had a 3rd friggin' eye! 
Fortunately, back in the Utter East thread/project we were able to smooth out some of the wrinkles, and even tie the third eye to Savras (those were priests of Savras in the book.. that was our explanation). The worst part was that those folk weren't even from the Indianesque (Mar) region - they were from Konigheim, which was a Norse-like area. Very bizarre. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Aug 2015 21:59:00 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2015 : 22:41:43
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quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
Ressurecting this thread: have anyone mentioned the Double Diamond Triangle Saga? I think it is related with Kara-Tur, have anyone read it?
I've been trying to get my hands on these books, but it's difficult. I know the general plot though, as well as the fact that they're officially considered not canon.
It just takes some patience and watching for them on eBay. I've actually bought them like 4 times -- one set was later destroyed, another was sold, and still another is going to be sold... I don't think I've paid more than $35 for them, often less. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 20 Aug 2015 22:52:27 |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1607 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2015 : 01:16:00
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I read some reviews and it IS weird. It is related with the Bloodforges, right? Fact is, I thought it was linked to Kara-Tur, but this is ANOTHER "Utter East"...  |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2015 : 16:52:06
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And then there is the small city of Lipo, situated on the coast of the Utter East (right where Zakhara begins), which is ruled by The Coral Princess... who is a Yak-woman!
In fact, its an entire settlement of 'Ebil Yakfolk', right there on the coast, trading with everyone. Between THAT, and the offhand mention of a Yakman (woman) ambassador to Waterdeep, I get the feeling that Faerūnians have a VERY different opinion of Yakfolk then Zakharans do. On the other hand, they seem to have no problem with dark Elves (Drow). It never made it onto my Utter East map because I only discovered that town long after I was finished. You can read about it in Dragon #241.
Like I said, WEIRD.
Which is why I didn't feel at all bad about adding Srangdala the Loxo kingdom (think 'Indianesque Babar').  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Aug 2015 16:52:40 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2015 : 14:33:17
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Something I read reminded me of my idea to make Pe Nii-Qwoh, Batu Min Ho's former adjutant and his heir (which makes him the heir to Tzu Hsuang as well), a powerful governing general in the wartorn northern provinces of Shou Lung.
I want to base him on An Lushan, at least in terms of his position as an extremely senior imperial official and a potentially lethal threat to the Empire.
His lands are in Chukei and are rich and extensive. In addition, he was the chosen adjutant of Batu Min Ho and spent the Tuigan War learning how to general under the best commander in Shou Lung. As Batu Min Ho's heir, he is also part-Tuigan by adoption (like An Lushan was part-'barbarian') and might appeal to Tuigan warriors who do not appreciate their own khans.
The Empire of Shou Lung certainly needs cavalry armies to fight the eastern remnants of the Tuigan horde under Tolui, not to mention any of the Plains of Horses powers who might take advantage of the breaching of the Dragonwall and the weakening of the Imperial armies.
Not to mention the undead threat from Khazari and Ra-Khati. |
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State of the Shou Lung (and Kara-Tur) in 1373 DR
