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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 12:52:20
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Was anything published for Kara-Tur or Shou Lung after the boxed set and adventures for the 1e?
Is there any canon information on what happened there after the events of the novel Dragonwall? An article in Dragon Magazine or something?
I know that Wai Yong, emperor of Tu' Lung travelled in disguise to Mulhorand in 1375 DR. That I got from GHotR. Is this snippet found anywhere else? Followed up by any canon source or is it completely left to the DM to play with?
What about Shou Lung? Same emperor on the Jade Throne? Given that Solon invaded two years after the Tuigan and more or less ravaged what little remained of Mai Yuan province's economic base was left (not to mention further decimating its broken armies), what kind of shape are they in twelve years later?
Especially if those Taangan tribes that did not follow Hubadai's dream of Yaimmunnahar take advantage of Shou Lung's greatest military weakness in untold centuries, not to mention the destruction of the Dragonwall, to raid its northern provinces at will. Not to mention the possibility that the 'death' of Tan Chin under Skarou might not have been enough to cause the immediate end of the existence of all his undead minions* and these had to be hunted down by Shou military forces.
Or that some intelligent undead, evil monsters or worst of all, fragments of Tan Chin's consciousness might have survived and still maintain an undead 'kingdom' in Ra-Khati**, making constant raids into Shou Lung territory to take slaves to make new undead and loot valuables.
I have my own ideas of how I want things to be, but I also want to intergrate all published canon before I start weaving my own tapestry.
*No doubt bolstered by the necromantically bound people of Ra-Khati, Shou Lung and Khazari until they number many times the original ten thousand.
**See Khataroon in the 4e Open Grave supplement.
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 14:50:48
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Wasn't one of the Rogue novels set in Kara-Tur? The Yellow Silk, or something similar. I'm not sure, since that was about the time I stopped reading every single Realms novel they put out, but I thought at least some of the references in GHotR came from novels written about that time.
There's also the Dragonwall novel from 2e, which was set a few years after the 1e box set and featured the emperor and mandarins introduced in the Ronin's Challenge adventure. That was a pretty major event, since there was mass death and destruction, some cities were razed, and there was some turnover in the mandarinate. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 15:09:22
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| IIRC, The Yellow Silk begins in Telflamm (Unapproachable East) and features a Shou Lung expatriate as the main character, but I do not think that any part of it takes place in Kara-Tur. And yes, bits of later Kara-Tur lore did make it into the GHotR, but I don't remember what. Too many years since reading either. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 15:38:46
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| Also, a key character in Stardeep (who is also the main character in the Abolethic Sovereignty) is a half-Shou half-elf. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 15:53:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Wasn't one of the Rogue novels set in Kara-Tur? The Yellow Silk, or something similar. I'm not sure, since that was about the time I stopped reading every single Realms novel they put out, but I thought at least some of the references in GHotR came from novels written about that time.
As noted below by sharp-eyed scribes, it looks like at least two novels featured characters with Shou origins. Unfortunately, neither was set anywhere near Shou Lung.
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
There's also the Dragonwall novel from 2e, which was set a few years after the 1e box set and featured the emperor and mandarins introduced in the Ronin's Challenge adventure. That was a pretty major event, since there was mass death and destruction, some cities were razed, and there was some turnover in the mandarinate.
Mentioned in the first post, yes. I'm trying to find out how Shou Lung recovered after that invasion, especially with another and perhaps worse invasion following a mere two years after it, razing three more cities and ravaging much of Mai Yuan province, which had already been the scene of a couple of seasons' scorched-earth total war.
I expect a major refugee crisis developed in neighbouring provinces to Mai Yuan in the winter of 1359-1360 DR. With burnt homes and ravaged fields, the peasants would have found it hard to make use of the winter rainy season to plant crops for 1360 DR.
Either the empire was sluggish in repopulating the devastated lands, in which case they suffered reduced acricultural productivity for an extra year, or they made it an absolute priority, pouring Imperial wealth into making Mai Yuan habitable again. Whichever they did, it was invaded again in 1361 DR, this time by an army of undead from Solon that raised fallen foes again to fight with them.
My guess is that Mai Yuan acriculture did not fare well, since the invaders didn't even have any need for it themselves and apparently invaded mostly to break the armies and will of Shou Lung.
Given that Dragonwall mentions that Shou Lung acriculture is barely enough to feed their own overpopulated lands, I don't think that even the massive casulaties caused by the invasions would have been enough to make up for the virtual loss of all Mai Yuan produce for at least two years and maybe more, especially with refugees from there to feed in neighbouring provinces. In addition, having to conscript 200,000+ new pengs instead of the ones lost will correspondingly reduce their acricultural productivity. Granted, Shou Lung has millions of people and it's a tiny fraction, but when operating at the edges of carrying capacity, even a few percent less productivity is painful. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 16:47:46
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Almost nothing.
Post-ToT is an blank slate, pretty much. I did a lot with it, but its all gone now.
I was updating all the entries in the K-T sources, but arranging like the The Horde product (which was light-years better organized then the K-T material).
There is a homebrew thing somewhere here on CK, about what the deities were up to during the ToT (they all hid in the mountains, presumably). Thats one of the things I referenced when I brought Ma Yuan in with the Copper Demon (who isn't dead... demons don't really ever die on the Prime Material, they just dissipate for awhile). I assume he has at least one cult in K-T, which brings him back ahead of time every so often (there's this 100-year rule, IIRC). He isn't necessary for K-T, and not canonically connected to OA setting (unlike much of the rest of the Chinese Pantheon from 1e DD). I find it interesting that he appears to be a sauroid (some sort of throwback to the Sarrukh, perhaps?)
I do have a recurring problem with the negative numbers in the timeline LOL - I used to have it all written down, which made it much easier - Now I'm just winging it.
The only major thing I did was a massive 'collapse' of the terrain between Shou-Lung, Tu'Lung, Malatra (Kuong Kingdom), and Petan (a land ruled by Catfolk - also HB). Basically, nearly the entire Fengnao Province. The premise was that Ibrandul - who was killed by Shar during the ToT - was maintaining a vast cavern-realm beneath that province, which is why it collapsed after his death. The back-story is a bit complex - it involves the Lords of Creation (Vedic Pantheon), and how they created the 'hidden plateau' (Living Jungle setting) in Malatra; basically, they 'borrowed' all that earth from beneath Fengnao (and installed Ibrandul there - something that worked out for everyone).
Anyhow, I wanted to create a region similar to the Great Lakes in N.America, with at least 4 nations vying for control of the new region, with lots of waterways, swamps and bogs, new creatures (supposedly come-up from the depths), etc, etc. I even installed the Locathah all over, going for a WoW-Murloc feel, along with lots of those cool looking Oriental orcs from Eberron.
The idea was to spruce the place up - make it more interesting to adventure in. As it is, we have a massive continent that is pretty boring, for the most part (from a gaming perspective). My HB lore for each province would have added tons of post-ToT plothooks.
I even had tons of sidebars planned (most humorous.. Like General Tso's Chicken), both for flavor and to add more optional plothooks. I am incapable of staying serious for very long, so I was going to use the sidebars to keep myself on the 'straight path' for the rest of the netbook(s).
Maybe someday... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Mar 2012 16:53:08 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 17:52:12
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I don't consider the area at all boring as it stands. I've always found the most interesting thing about fantasy the ability to tell new stories about people* by assuming the existence of impossible things and logically extrapolating consequences from them.
As such, fantastic elements are only useful in so far as they offer interesting options for roleplaying and world-building, not simply because they are fantastic. And because dramatic impact is reduced when fantastic elements vie for attention with each other, I much prefer areas of the world where designers managed to avoid the temptation to insert fantastic and amazing elements almost as if they had a quota.
It's not necessarily that Shou Lung is 'low-magic' compared to Faerun, it's that those magical and supernatural elements that are present fit into a few themes that are integrated into the mythology of the culture, rather than being composed of every single monster in the MM, all the magic items and spells in every sourcebook, all the exotic classes of every splatbook, etc.
I also think that the huge empire with a cultural superiority complex contrasts with the extremely politically fragmented Faerun in useful ways and allows for interesting stories. When one considers the fact that Shou Lung is heavily based on real-world polities where the sheer geographic and demographic immensity caused centralised government to suffer periodic setbacks, not to mention enabled the wrong decisions by a tiny elite to freeze economic and technological progress for almost a third of the world for centuries, well, you get plenty of possibilities for adventures.
And adventure of the best kind, where there is not only a McGuffin and Evil Foes. No, here we have many factions within the empire, many potential foes outside it, and it is possible to make a reasonable argument for the morality of committing ruthless acts in order to hold together an imperfect empire to stave off an era of chaos and warfare, but it's also possible to view the empire as doing more harm than good and fight against it.
And these two extreme views merely represent the simplest options. Others are various kinds of reforms, changes in government, unification of Tu' Lung and Shou Lung or, alternatively, the fragmentation of both into even smaller polities, etc. And the PCs don't even have to be involved in treason or the suppression thereof for the empire to be a useful adventure hook. The economies of Shou Lung and Tu' Lung are stagnating, which provides both opportunities for courageous traders and dangers for anyone who thinks outside the box.
Yamun Khahan's unififaction of the people of the Taangan into a single 'Tuigan' horde might seem to have left deceptively little in the way of permanent change, but it was paradigm altering in one way. After this, by analogy from the real world and according to everyone I know about societies, Taangan society won't ever go back to the way it was. The struggle for power and position on the steppes is not just about ruling a single people any more. Any truly talented and ambitious leader will aim to unite the tribes and thanks to the legacy of the military* organisation that Yamun Khahan left, it will be possible.
So Shou Lung still has a terrible enemy on their north and western border, but for the first time in three millenia, they are exposed to raids through what used to be the Dragonwall. Add that to their military and economic woes caused by the previous Tuigan invasion and the Solon invasion, and Shou Lung could be facing a crisis of the sort that leads to change in government.
Whether that will be a new dynasty seizing power amidst widespread condemnation of the weakness of the current one, the rise in power and influence of those nobles whose armies can effectively protect people on their lands at the cost of a reduction in the power of the Emperor and his bureaucracy to the point of almost ceremonial role or even a counter-move to either or both of the former possibilities in the form of an autocratic imperial regime*** supported by a newly-reformed and modern military, we simply don't know yet.
But for PCs whose activities take them anywhere near the eastern part of Faerun or further, these answers will be fraught with adventure. There are few times more interesting than times of decline and danger for a truly great world power and in gaming, if not in life, you want to live in interesting times.
*Anything intelligent and self-aware is 'people' as long as it has motivations and the ability to communicate them. They also have a place in society and are affected by politics and economics, even if they don't realise it.
**Will function well enough for non-military governing purposes as well, with generals serving as governors.
***After Dragonwall, I have grave doubts about the ability of Emperor Kai Tsao Shou Chin to enforce his will on his appointed mandarins, let alone on frontier nobles if these start to use their military forces with more audacity and innovation than the mandarins in charge of the imperial forces. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3766 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 18:41:19
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-DRAGON Magazine #315 was hailed as being an 3e update to Kara-Tur, with the "Ancestor Feats and Martial Arts Styles" article, but that was more or less simply creating some 3e rules to be tacked on to a game that used martial arts. There was very little specificity to Kara-Tur or relevant history. DRAGON Magazine #351 (I wonder if that was intentional, the numbering) was filled with 'updates' of the various 2e campaign settings, Kara-Tur included. The article presented the city of Cham Fau in some detail. There wasn't all that much in terms of presenting Shou Lung in the (then) present, and overall, I felt the article...lacked something. I don't know specifically what that 'that' was, but.
-As far as I know, that's the only canon that deals with Kara-Tur after the Tuigan Horde that hasn't been mentioned. For the most part, it's only homebrew- but, I will say, the homebrew from the Kara-Tur Re-Dux is very good. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 18:42:35
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Not boring 'as history' - I enjoy history a lot. Its just boring from a gaming perspective - it needs a lot of spring-boards for future adventures. I wanted some 'current clack' to jump-start it. That is what I was going for - current storylines that PCs can jump right into.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
As far as I know, that's the only canon that deals with Kara-Tur after the Tuigan Horde that hasn't been mentioned. For the most part, it's only homebrew- but, I will say, the homebrew from the Kara-Tur Re-Dux is very good.
I need to go back through that thread - I remember I wanted a at least one sidebar per section (and province). It was supposed to have a very '2e feel' to it. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Mar 2012 22:24:07 |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 18:51:07
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Whoops, sorry about that. I was posting in haste and skimmed your OP a bit too quickly.
I agree with Markus that there hasn't been anything official. Hard to have been, when WotC decided in its infinite wisdom to replace Kara-tur with Rokugan during the 3e days. Though I thought in The Horde sourcebook they said that the breech Yamun made to the wall was quickly repaired in such a way as to hide that it had even existed.
Or maybe I'm remembering what it was saying about previous wall breeches. I'm afb, and can't check.
I think you're right, there's a sizable chance that some of the tribes that didn't follow Yamun, or the survivors of those who fought in Faerun, would continue to raid Shou Lung afterward. They would certainly try to delay the reconstruction of the wall for as long as possible.
All of the options you mention I think are completely possible, but I think it's clear that one way or another, the empire is going to change. Even if the current dynasty, and even most of the mandarinate, hold on, they're going to have to adapt to the new reality. Just the very fact of living in "interesting times" when there's been peace for so long would have a profound psychological effect on the populace.
The nice thing is, it could go in any of those directions and be plausible. I suppose, unless your PC's act to change things, that you just need to decide which you like the most/find the most interesting, and go with it. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3766 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 19:20:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
So Shou Lung still has a terrible enemy on their north and western border, but for the first time in three millenia, they are exposed to raids through what used to be the Dragonwall. Add that to their military and economic woes caused by the previous Tuigan invasion and the Solon invasion, and Shou Lung could be facing a crisis of the sort that leads to change in government.
-Speculation, but I would not be surprised if Shou Lung heightened relations with Thay, Thesk, Mulhorand, and other eastern Faerûnian city-states, as well as surviving Hordelands kingdoms, in the wake of the Tuigan Horde and the formation of Yubadai's nation on the steppes. In the early 1,360s, we know that Tuigan raiders were still harassing trade routes and merchants, so there certainly was cause for bad blood. A permanent nation, even if they had completely benign and peaceful intentions, would still pose as a threat, as they would represent a new power in the geopolitics of the area. The nations on the Golden Way, as it is, would be suffering in the wake of everything that happened. Even if they were to return to a practical status quo before the Tuigan Horde and march of Tan Chin, Hubadai and his nation might represent an economic threat, in simply the sense that they exist as an organized entity, could put pressure on trade routes, and would possibly have to be a tertiary party to deal with regarding trade. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 22:37:39
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I touched upon this (briefly) in my Portals article in the CKC.
Basically, Shou-Lung controls the portal that comes out in the Dragonmere, which allows it to easily deal with western nations now. My assumption is that thus-far, they have not engaged in trade through the portal, because they don't want to ruin the trade-route through the Hordelands (because they control several of the way-stops, and use them to keep an eye on everything). However, 'unscrupulous' seamen and captains have hidden contraband on Imperial ships, and have engaged in their own side-business (on a very small scale).
The Emperor has grown fond of certain western luxuries (mostly wines and luxury goods), and has his own purchasing-agents bring items back to him using the portal. He has no interest (thus far) in turning his navy into a 'merchant marine', but he is not above enjoying the 'short cut' for himself.
I also touched-upon a growing relationship between Thay and Shou-Lung (Shou was impressed by Thay's ability to turn the Horde aside). There are at least 3 Red Wizard Enclaves in the East now (as of 1385 DR), in Shou, Tu, and Kozakura (Wa & Korya have adamantly refused their intrusions). Tu'Lung is, of course, trying to get the Red Wizards on 'their side' in their on-going conflict with Shou.
All homebrew, of course. Working form memory here. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Mar 2012 22:39:03 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3766 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2012 : 03:39:52
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| -Using a portal, I don't think it goes against the grain to say that they wouldn't engage in wholesale trade through it. If they used it in such a manner, others would learn of it's existence, and covet it (at either end). If relations between Shou Lung and Yaimmunnahar become more antagonistic than they already might be, it can serve as a trump card, should the Shou government seek to completely bypass the long arduous trek across the steppes, which would stop the Tuigan from getting taxes/money spent on food and lodgings/expenses/etc. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2012 : 11:49:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Speculation, but I would not be surprised if Shou Lung heightened relations with Thay, Thesk, Mulhorand, and other eastern Faerûnian city-states, as well as surviving Hordelands kingdoms, in the wake of the Tuigan Horde and the formation of Yubadai's nation on the steppes.
Certainly.
The future of Shou Lung depends to a great extent on the decisions that are made by their government. Any outcome that is even remotely positive for the empire involves a much closer relationship with other nations on Toril, simply because the extensive trade between nations in Faerun is enabling them to grow richer and more powerful at a rate which would leave Shou Lung far behind within a century or two*.
On the other hand, relations with Thesk are more or less symbolic to the point of uselessness. While shipping over great distances might still be economically viable, carting caravans all that distance is pretty much self-limiting. It might make or break individual merchants, even small powers like Khazari and Semphar, but it's ultimately of little economic significance for Shou Lung. Nor could Thesk grant them any military or political advantages, or vice versa. It doesn't hurt to make pleasant noises, of course, but Thesk might as well be on the moon for all the direct impact they have on Shou Lung.
With their magic, the Red Wizards of Thay are at least more relevant to Shou Lung, but I've gotten the feeling that despite the ease and lack of expense attached to creating portals in D&D rules, there are significantly more barriers in the Realms. In a way, it's a reflection of the fact that in D&D, magic behaves predictably and is completely safe, whereas in the Realms, this is not always true. It seems that while modern wizards can indeed create permanent portals in the Realms, such portals seem to get perverted with time and use.
While perhaps irrelevant for adventuring uses, it seems to have a profound impact on their commercial use. Using modern** portals for mass cargo, like perhaps hundreds of tons of wheat per day, would probably lead to serious risks within a few years. And a gargantuan portal that is always open malfunctioning is the kind of 'things going wrong' that creates post-apocalyptic wastelands.
So while the Red Wizards might indeed become vital allies of Shou Lung, a combination of institutional conservatism and justified caution on both parts is likely to limit their role to providers of small magical gewgaws and other low-volume luxury goods, sending home equivalent luxury items, art and local magic. While a hard-pressed Shou Lung might indeed assume greater risks in order to prevent a famine and consequent breakdown of centralised authority, the ability to do so would also call for an innovative, open-minded and strong leader. While Emperor Kai Tsao Shou Chin might be somewhat more open to changes than many of his predecessors, he appears to have only a limited ability to actually govern Shou Lung, with the Mandarinate much more powerful than him.***
A warmer relationship with Mulhorand might have similar minor benefits as a warmer relationship with Thay, i.e. increased trade in specialised luxury, but, again, the lack of a viable trade route for bulk trade limits their ultimate value. Militarily, the distances seperating them are probably too great for even an allegiance to be worth much, as neither power would want to send significant forces on a year's trip through potentially hostile lands.
So while friendly relationships would be more profitable than unfriendly ones, it will be distant friendship. This doesn't mean that geography reduces all diplomatic relations for Shou Lung to minor concerns. Not at all. The transformation of the nomads of the Taangan from tribal people that raided in bands, at most, into a collection of militarised confederations means that they are no longer a constant nuisance, they are a dire threat. Any local leader with dreams about looting Shou Lung could now potentially whelm an army of thousands, even tens or hundreds of thousands.
The counter to that is cultivating close relationships with local leaders opposing invasions of Shou Lung and, if possible, in favour of enabling trade. While to an extent, this can be done by reaching out to the Plains of Horses tribes, culturally closer to many frontier Shou than to the other nomads, and offer them some of your now-depopulated lands in return for military service, there is also a very promising player in steppe politics from the viewpoint of Shou Lung.
If those who truly make the decisions in Shou Lung foreign policy have the wit to seek an allegiance with Yaimmunnahar, demanding that steppe peoples raiding into Shou Lung be brought to heel and in return providing the new kingdom with all the manufactured goods that it lacks****, well, that could save the empire. It would also result in the steppes eventually being under the sole rule of Yaimmunnahar, which is a great risk if Hubadai's successor should prove more aggressive and less honourable, but given that the tribes who rejected Yaimmunnahar are already powerful enough to make the north of Shou Lung almost uninhabitable, better a potential risk in a generation than a certain horror now.
*Assuming that the Spellplague doesn't render all that moot, but in any event, the Spellplage is not known to most people on 1370s Toril and doesn't form any part of their future plans.
**Ancient and magically powerful civilisations appear to have had much more reliable and robust portals. No doubt that is partially better and more specialised spells and magical technique refined by that civilisation, but also a reflection of the difference between a 300-year-old expert in portal making vs. a 41-year-old adventuring mage creating his first portal.
***That is, he is capable of overruling them on the spot, but he is limited in the exercise of his ultimate power by his inability to know what's going on everywhere in his 3,000,000 square mile territory. In fact, he doesn't even seem to know what's going on in his own home and Mandarins involve the Empire in wars without consulting him.
****A trade allegiance between overcrowded but productive Shou Lung and sparsely settled, but infrastructure and human-resource poor Yaimmunnhar would benefit both. Shou Lung is always desperate to feed its growing surplus of people and Yaimunnahar needs people to work fields and teach its people crafts and arts.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
In the early 1,360s, we know that Tuigan raiders were still harassing trade routes and merchants, so there certainly was cause for bad blood.
Yes. It's easy to come up with reasons for why Shou Lung would not make the optimal decisions for its future survival and strength. Cultural prejudices, lingering resentment over the invasion, ignorance about the differences between the various groups of nomads, etc.
In a way, predicting the state of Shou Lung in 1373 DR demands that we predict which NPCs end up making the decisions, how much information they have when they make them and how good they are at their jobs.
Unfortunately for Shou Lung, in order for things to turn out well, everyone involved has to be very good at their jobs, the decisions have to be made in an atmosphere of professional detachment and best possible information and internal politics cannot be allowed to influence them. These things are historically not something associated with the Imperial bureaucracy, where internal politics are far more important than accurate asssessment of the external world.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
A permanent nation, even if they had completely benign and peaceful intentions, would still pose as a threat, as they would represent a new power in the geopolitics of the area. The nations on the Golden Way, as it is, would be suffering in the wake of everything that happened. Even if they were to return to a practical status quo before the Tuigan Horde and march of Tan Chin, Hubadai and his nation might represent an economic threat, in simply the sense that they exist as an organized entity, could put pressure on trade routes, and would possibly have to be a tertiary party to deal with regarding trade.
Well, as for trade routes, a single polity with control over them is rarely as problematic as a thousand individual tyrants, each of whom can cut the trade route at his own particular spot.
So the establishment of Yaimmunnahar is most likely good for trade. On the other hand, that is 'better for trade than what was in 1359 DR', which was a complete cessation of it. Caravans won't be able to traverse the Golden Way, Silk Road or any other trade routes until Yaimmunnahar can effectively police these roads from other steppe folk.
The true risk of the Tuigan kingdom is the possibility of a warlike successor to Hubadai. On the other hand, if the Tuigan settle to farm the land and grow rich from trade, they'll have far more to lose from warfare, not to mention much fewer young men whose sole useful skills are those of a horse archer and warrior. |
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Edited by - Icelander on 08 Mar 2012 12:00:51 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2012 : 14:30:47
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News update!
I have discovered that the ninth Emperor Chin of the Kuo dynasty, i.e. the son* of Kai Tsao Shou Chin, is in power 1396 DR and still has enough authority** to issue proclamations that are unpopular with the mandarinate. How and when Kai Tsao Shou Chin died is not known, but he would have been in his early seventies in 1373 DR, so it is not unlikely that his son succeeded him in the late 1370s or early 1380s. Of course, the hengeyokai blood in the family means that it is more likely to be long-lived and hale than ordinary human ones and human emperors have been able to rule in their eighties.
Perhaps the ninth Emperor Chin actually takes the throne at or just before that time, explaining the radical change in imperial policy toward spirit folk and other non-humans.
The weight of evidence suggests that Shou Lung did not enjoy particularly good days until then. Thousands of refugees who move more than 4,000 miles to reach Thesk and Rashemen argues for a post-war famine in the northern provinces and if there are thousands this far away, there will be millions of internal refugees.
The Golden Way remained completely closed until at least 1362 DR***. The founding of Yaimunnahar and the building of Kourmira appear to have had a positive impact, since in 1366 DR, the trade has clearly begun anew and in 1369 DR is has increased to what is most likely the highest volume it has ever been, with merchants from around Faerun taking note and establishing outposts in Rashemen and even Almorel and Kourmira.
Yaimunnahar is clearly trading extensively with Faerun, at least, but whether Shou Lung is able to cross the steppes controlled by khans who reject Yaimunnahar and effectively share in the modest prosperity is doubtful. Most likely caravans are very much at risk there, even if they pay tribute to khans, simply because no khan controls all the Spice Road. Refugee trains may be more likely to survive the crossing, if only because they have nothing to steal and are thus less likely to interest the independent khans as much.
Well-armed military expeditions from Yaimunnahar might be able to escort Shou Lung traders over the Silk Road (or Yaimunnahar could develop their own merchant class this way), but they would need to be extremely large and powerful to ensure that no indepedent khan dared attack. And sending armies of that size into the Plains of Horses might well provoke the other claimants to Hubadai's Khahanate to military action, simply because they felt threathened. It is, therefore, only worth doing if Hubadai Khahan is prepared to go to war with those tribes who reject Yaimunnahar, not to mention with at least one and perhaps more of his brothers.
I believe that the evidence therefore supports the northern provinces of Chukei and Ma' Yuan falling almost entirely into 'barbarism', with maybe three quarters of their people dead or moved somewhere else. I'd expect Imperial authority there to mean less and less and local warlords, whether generals of the province armies theoretically appointed by the Emperor or local nobles openly flouting limits on their retinue size, become the effective rulers. Enough of these are loyal to the Jade Throne so that Imperial law and custom is more or less observed, but the bureaucracy would probably face armed resistance if it attempted to remove these warlords or curtail their power.
Meanwhile, Ch'ing Tung and Sheng Ti would have remained under Imperial rule, but been forced to militarise to a much greater extent than while they were protected by the Dragonwall and two secure border provinces shielding them from horse nomads. Standards of living would have dropped and with the refugee crisis, the bureaucracy would probably have been forced into some fairly draconian measures to prevent famine. Judging by prior history and their apparent institutional culture, I'm guessing these involved centralised food re-distribution centers and the mandatory seizure of private possessions considered necessary for food production by the bureaucracy.
Most likely strategic doctrine is a continued emphasis on large conscript armies with crossbows, outnumbering any nomad force enough to make them hesitant to risk confrontation, and a series of fortifications that will tie down nomad armies. This is effective in preventing defeat to any ambitious horselord, but it does not prevent constant raiding in small groups. The strategic answer to that problem, unfortunately, is not one that Shou Lung can afford to adopt, seeing as it would demand decentralised military forces that are highly mobile.
Struggling against famine, Shou Lung would be hard-pressed to feed enough horses for cavalry to be able to match raiding groups and such a decentralised army would run contrary to their political system**** and probably end up making the Emperor and the Imperial Bureaucracy more symbolic than actual government.
By contrast, this is probably what the embattled inhabitants of Ma' Yuan and Chukei end up adopting, without ever planning to break with the Jade Throne (and without any declaration of independence). The landowners who trust in the Army of the Northern Marches to defend farmers on their lands will eventually be ruined, since the Army cannot respond to an endless series of little raids fast enough to prevent them from doing their damage, but those who gradually build up their military forces to defend their own people will find that the area which they effectively control continues to rise with the size and ability of their mobile patrols.
Depending on whether we assume that the destruction of Ambuchar Devayam/Tan Chin completely ended the threat of undead to the western provinces or whether we have Ra-Khati under the control of self-willed undead and bands of ravening ghouls sneaking over the Katakoro plateu to raid Shou Lung, the feudalisation might even extend into western Ch'ing Tung province. Here, though, it is probably more likely that a competent general in the Imperial forces, if any exist, will start to amass power, with the Mandarinate and Emperor more or less forced to accept it as long as he does his job.
Based on this, the indications in the 1370s are that those areas of the Empire less touched by the catastrophes are unlikely to experience rapid social change. The likely reactions by the Mandarinate to the changes in the north and west will be stricter regulations and an increased adherenance to tradition, which while probably not enough to stop social change with such overwhelming survival implications as the feudalisation/warlordism, will probably be quite effective in stifling currents of change elsewhere.
*Kai Tsao Shou Chin had a hengeyokai grandparent and the ninth Emperor Chin of the Kuo dynasty is described as having a hengeyokai great-grandfather.
**While the emperor has always has this power and will likely continue to do so, his real authority will also depend largely on how much information he has. The ability to change policies doesn't mean much without information about current policies and conditions that might necessiate change.
***This means that a total of three years of trade were totally lost and it is likely that for at least twenty years before that, Yamun Khahan's growing power meant that an ever increasing proportion of caravans were lost.
****Feudal systems evolve and are perpetuated by just this strategic situation, i.e. where every farming community is in need of a band of professional warriors with expensive mounts who can ride to chase off raiders before they destroy all their crops. An army of 100,000 stationed a mere two hundred miles away is no good to the farmer whose livestock will be stolen, family killed and crops thus ruined unless someone can chase off or kill ten nomads today. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3766 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2012 : 16:34:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Well, as for trade routes, a single polity with control over them is rarely as problematic as a thousand individual tyrants, each of whom can cut the trade route at his own particular spot.
So the establishment of Yaimmunnahar is most likely good for trade. On the other hand, that is 'better for trade than what was in 1359 DR', which was a complete cessation of it. Caravans won't be able to traverse the Golden Way, Silk Road or any other trade routes until Yaimmunnahar can effectively police these roads from other steppe folk.
The true risk of the Tuigan kingdom is the possibility of a warlike successor to Hubadai. On the other hand, if the Tuigan settle to farm the land and grow rich from trade, they'll have far more to lose from warfare, not to mention much fewer young men whose sole useful skills are those of a horse archer and warrior.
-I meant it more in terms of financial concerns. While a singular, 'civilized' Tuigan nation (more or less) presents less of a risk of violence than the chance of being attacked by raiders, it certainly impacts the pocketbook more. Caravans being raided in the past seemingly were freak occurrences, or else the Golden Way would never have developed as a viable trade route. Yaimmunnahar's very existence is another stop on the road that traders did not have to make in the past, and another place where they presumably have to pay customs dues and taxes on their goods. While it is a relatively minor thing, having to pay dues on goods in one more settlement- with the average trading caravan passing through at least a handful on their trip from east to west and vice-versa- greed prompts people to do things. Might traders complaining that they have to pay an additional amount in duties prompt the government of Shou Lung (or any other nation in Eastern Faerûn and the Hordelands) to take some kind of action? Might it prompt those traders themselves to take some kind of action? Though seemingly more expensive, perhaps sea travel might start becoming more prevalent. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2012 : 17:42:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-I meant it more in terms of financial concerns. While a singular, 'civilized' Tuigan nation (more or less) presents less of a risk of violence than the chance of being attacked by raiders, it certainly impacts the pocketbook more. Caravans being raided in the past seemingly were freak occurrences, or else the Golden Way would never have developed as a viable trade route.
Actually, the Golden Way is viable only because the potential for 400% profits on each leg of the journey enabled merchants to hire small armies of guards and to bribe dozens or even hundreds of minor khans on the way. It was never safe, but as long as the cost of bribes and guards did not exceed the cost of the cargo, you could still lose one out of every two caravans and make a profit at the end.
The Golden Way, in the past, was something that made a very few merchants extremely rich, made a rather greater number very dead or very broke, and never had enough volume of trade to make a difference to the national economy of Shou Lung. Remember, Thesk is comparatively speaking equal to a single city or a modest part of one of the fourteen provinces of Shou Lung.* Enough volume of trade to double the gross domestic product in Thesk is not enough to register as an important issue in Shou Lung.
Even at its height, the Golden Way was only profitable for those rare merchants who seemed to be able to get along with most of the independent khans whose lands were near the caravan route. If one of the ordus near the route were warlike for a given year, they'd hopefully hear about it and be able to camp in the land of a friendly ordu for a season or so.
When Yamun Khahan started uniting the clans of the Tuigan and then moving on to other tribes of the Taangan, he encouraged raiding outsiders over the previously endemic inter-tribal raids. The result was the slow strangling of the Golden Way and other east-west trade routes, which in 1358 DR had caused trade with Shou Lung to stop completely.
Significantly, this was regarded as cause for alarm in Khazari and Semphar, as well as presumably Thesk, but only a few merchant guilds elsewhere really cared. Azoun IV and Vangerdahast attended a diplomatic summit about it, but the real reason they were there seems to have been in order to learn more about eastern lands in general. Shou Lung, meanwhile, did not care enough about the cessation of trade to Faerun to even send a representative to the summit.
Edit: I was wrong, above. Shou Lung sent a Mandarin, but his report does not seem to have reached the Emperor, being dealt with at a much lower level. Also, they did not send him because of the Golden Way, but rather because the Silk Road through Khazari and Semphar was closed. It seems that the Golden Road, specifically because of the huge number of independent khans that needed to be placated, was pretty much considered too dangerous by Shou Lung all along.
Also, there are multiple statements in The Hordelands material that suggest that the Golden Way was, even before Yamun Khahan closed it, experiencing a long period of decline, due to the risks of the nomads. Only a few brave Theskan merchants still used it and the small settlements that once served caravan traffic were turning into ghost villages. The Silk Road through Semphar and Khazari had pretty much replaced the Golden Way, seeing as it went through kingdoms and not lands held by dozens of petty lords.
Granted, Khazari had its own lords that taxed caravans heavily, but a heavy tax can be planned for and passed on to consumers. Brigandage is harder to deal with, seeing as it kills your workforce and makes it hard to hire more. So even with greedy Khazari lords and assidious Khazari brigands in the mountains, the way over nomad lands was considered in 1340+ DR too dangerous to travel by everyone except a few hardy and adventurous Theskans.
*Shou Lung is 3,75 million square miles of densely settled land. Most of the people in Thesk live concentrated on maybe a 10,000 square miles around the coast and road.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
Yaimmunnahar's very existence is another stop on the road that traders did not have to make in the past, and another place where they presumably have to pay customs dues and taxes on their goods. While it is a relatively minor thing, having to pay dues on goods in one more settlement- with the average trading caravan passing through at least a handful on their trip from east to west and vice-versa- greed prompts people to do things.
Yaimunnahar's existence means having to pay taxes and duties to one monarch, whose lands cover the same length of the Golden Way as the lands of maybe ten khans in the past.
Even if Hubadai were greedy, which the evidence suggests he is not, the existence of Yaimunnahar still seems likely to cut the costs of travelling his section of the Golden Way significantly. And this is indeed what we learn from canon sources. After the establishment of the kingdom, trade from Thesk and Rashemen along the Golden Way reaches greater heights than ever before.
Edit: It is even specifically stated in the Hordelands and the Horde Campaign that the Golden Way is experiencing greater traffic after Yamun Khanan's war than it has within any man's lifetime, except possibly Lord Elminster's, if he can recall a time of greater trade over the steppes. Yaimunnahar is not bad for trade, it is good for it.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
Though seemingly more expensive, perhaps sea travel might start becoming more prevalent.
The rule of thumb that the cost of bulk transport by land is roughly eight times as much per mile of distance as the cost of bulk transport by river. River transport is then again roughly eight times more expensive per mile than ocean-going shipping.
Historically, this has meant that it was economical to ship goods from England to India rather than transport them by land from frontier provinces of India to the coast.
Basically, if someone is trying to conduct large scale trading over land, it's because he lacks one of: the technology to build ships, access to ports and the sea or enough interest in mercantile affairs to understand orders of magnitude of increased operating cost. This last has happened in real history, but it has always resulted in the polity responsible suffering decline, slow or fast, and being left far behind other nations.
The reason there is a caravan trade between Faerun and Shou Lung is that the nations around the Inner Sea are interested in trading with Shou Lung, but don't have any oceanic access to it. Shou Lung, meanwhile, isn't operating the caravans or actively seeking out trade. The Faerunian merchants are the ones who arrive with goods and sell them in Shou Lung markets, buying exotic wares to move back west in exchange. |
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Edited by - Icelander on 09 Mar 2012 15:47:38 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2012 : 15:47:07
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Population of Shou Lung
In a discussion of Shou military strength, a throwaway reference is made in a canon publication to their population of 'over 30 million'.
On examining the size, I see that with the correction to the scale given in Hordelands, the area of Shou Lung is about 3,75 million square miles.
With that in mind, I guess that the population is actually fine. Chukei, Ma' Yuan and the mountain provinces are fairly sparsely populated, the border with T'u Lung much lower than it used to be and the central and safe provinces are extremely densely settled.
All is well once more in my world. The math checks out.
I suppose that in 1357 DR, the population was at 34+ million. In 1363 DR, I think it would have dropped below 30 million, given the wars and especially the famines caused by the wars. |
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Edited by - Icelander on 09 Mar 2012 15:53:09 |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2012 : 15:47:23
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| Just in case anyone might find it useful, here is a link to the Kara-Tur Redux thread in the WotC forum archives. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2012 : 16:33:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
News update!
I have discovered that the ninth Emperor Chin of the Kuo dynasty, i.e. the son* of Kai Tsao Shou Chin, is in power 1396 DR and still has enough authority** to issue proclamations that are unpopular with the mandarinate. How and when Kai Tsao Shou Chin died is not known, but he would have been in his early seventies in 1373 DR, so it is not unlikely that his son succeeded him in the late 1370s or early 1380s. Of course, the hengeyokai blood in the family means that it is more likely to be long-lived and hale than ordinary human ones and human emperors have been able to rule in their eighties.
Source?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2012 : 17:03:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
News update!
I have discovered that the ninth Emperor Chin of the Kuo dynasty, i.e. the son* of Kai Tsao Shou Chin, is in power 1396 DR and still has enough authority** to issue proclamations that are unpopular with the mandarinate. How and when Kai Tsao Shou Chin died is not known, but he would have been in his early seventies in 1373 DR, so it is not unlikely that his son succeeded him in the late 1370s or early 1380s. Of course, the hengeyokai blood in the family means that it is more likely to be long-lived and hale than ordinary human ones and human emperors have been able to rule in their eighties.
Source?
Dragon #404. It's a 4e source, but fortunately, I know some people who play that game and am able to ask them questions and even look at their materials without having to vote with my wallet for a product I don't like. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2012 : 17:05:22
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Who wrote it?
I am SO GLAD I never finished my Kara-Tur netbook. Thats the third thing that has over-written stuff I did in the K-T thread. 
Edit:
Nevermind - found it. Who's Chris Sims? Some freelancer who knows little about the setting?
{"Lets take what potential there is in Kara-Tur, and nip that right in the bud")
I am so glad I have decided to do my own thing when 5e is released. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Mar 2012 17:09:56 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2012 : 17:06:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Who wrote it?
I am SO GLAD I never finished my Kara-Tur netbook. Thats the third thing that has over-written stuff I did in the K-T thread.
The article I got it from is listed online as being by someone named Tim Eagon. I don't know him. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2012 : 17:12:21
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LOL - I had the wrong name.
Didn't know there were two K-T articles in there. The more I read about things being done post-3e, the more I do not want to play in the Realms.
Now to get that disgusting thing out of my computer... horrible name right at the beginning there... nearly vomited up my breakfast... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2012 : 17:16:18
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The month of October last year had a Kara-Tur theme in both Dragon and Dungeon. There were lots of articles in both, I think. Tim Eagon wrote about the hengeyokai, where the ninth Emperor Chin of the Kuo dynasty happens to be mentioned as lifting the restrictions on spirit-folk serving in the Imperial bureaucracy in 1396 DR, after many of them had provided valuable service and performed heroic sacrifices during the dark years since the Tuigan invasions.
The reference pretty much fits my speculations about the future for Shou Lung, so I have nothing to complain about in it. On the other hand, any details are sparse and most of the magazine seemed to have more to do with mechanics of 4e than lore. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2012 : 17:48:02
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The thing about spirit-folk comes directly from the K-T thread (not saying he stole it - it just makes sense things went that way in the East). I had it where several non-human types could serve (like those dwarves with the unpronounceable name).
I could tweak my own timeline... or not... not sure if its worth the effort. Why create ANY fanlore when it can just be over-written instantly? In fact, I think fan-lore acts as a lightening-rod for things. Someone with the authority reads it, and either doesn't like it, or likes some of it but wants to spin it their own way. Ergo, if we truly like some corner of the Realms for ourselves, we should just keep it to ourselves. No sense in attracting the wolves to your delicious little morsel.
I am probably going to use about 70% of the stuff I created for K-T in my own setting eventually. At least I know it will be done the way I want it to be.
Those articles are a perfect example of why K-T wasn't supported in 3e - people try hard to write everything as bland knock-offs of RW history. K-T needs something new to make it pop - thats just "more of the same". This is why you have no problem with it Icelander - it was entirely predictable.
The Emperor dies and is replaced by {drumroll please.....} the son of the Emperor! WoW! How creative! Never saw that coming. Way to knock one out of the park. Maybe they'll throw in some weird twist, like his son replaces him eventually? Dare we dream?
Could K-T be any less exciting? Just kill the damn thing already and support Rokugon again - at least that was inspired. Thats been the whole problem with 4e - they change the things people like TOO much, and didn't bother to change the stuff people were bored by (except Maztica - they just replaced that with another useless, redundant continent). If any part of of FR needed the Spellplague to "spice things up", it was Kara-Tur. That place needs a real overhaul.
I think I need another break from this place... I'm becoming embittered again.
*Edited for grammatical reasons. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Mar 2012 16:17:15 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2012 : 18:16:06
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Well, I think that creativity and novelty value are not the same thing. If the progress of history in any world, fantasy or alternate history, is entirely unpredictable and founded only in what is thought to be cool, it will quickly cause me to lose all interest in that world.
If amazing things are to remain amazing in a setting, they have to be contrasted against something that is the 'norm' for that world. And Emperors being succeeded by their sons is very much the norm for Shou Lung, which is why the seven or so exceptions over several hundred Emperors make interesting stories.
Since the Emperor evidently survived the Tuigan and the Solon invasion never got far enough to threathen the capital, and he had almost ten children, including three that were noted as viable heirs with wide acceptance, it would have taken some pretty strange events for him not to have been succeeded by his son. Since Shou Lung had already been hit by several 'once in a century' or even millenia things, I don't think it would have been all that exciting to have more such things happen there. It would just have reduced the dramatic impact of examining the consequences of what had already occured.
Besides, Faerun is lousy with small polities ruled by 'not-Emperors'. Shou Lung and T'u Lung add variety in political systems by being huge empires, not small city-states.
Not everything that happens in campaign settings ought to be completely predictable. After all, real history quite often throws people for a loop. But the course of events should be such so that looking back, a reader can see the chain of causality that led to the current status from what was before. None of it ought to make him shake his head and lose all hope for the ability of his fellow man to construct a reasonable speculative historical hypothesis. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3766 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2012 : 18:31:04
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What's the problem with the son of the Emperor coming to power? That's how dynastic succession works.
Some kind of upheaval, and "we'd" be complaining about how the new designers purposefully 'ruin'be everything by trying to put their own special touch on everything. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
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GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2012 : 20:02:40
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Fascinating thread. I've long been interested in Kara Tur, I did a timeline for it way back in the day, and I compiled the KT entries for TSR's abandoned FR encyclopedia project.
Folks keep mentioning an invasion of Shou Lung by Solon following the Tuigan invasion, hat's the source for this? I never heard of it.
There is another source on post-Time of Troubles KT, the novel The Veiled Dragon. It's a bad, illogical novel IMO but it involves a Shou prince and Shou embassey in the western end of the Sea of Fallen Stars.
Also, the old FR comics included a Kozakuran character, and there was a short story in Dragon about her. I don't think anything much about course of events in KT in there, though the the short story took plac in the East, partially. |
"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2012 : 20:59:28
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The source for the Solon invasion would be the adventure trilogy Storm Riders, Black Courser and Blood Charge, as well as entries in the Grand History of the Realms that indicate how these adventures turned out in 'official' history.
Basically, a lich able to possess the bodies of the living is the Big Bad. He dates back to at least ca -1377 DR, when he was the Emperor Tan Chin of Shou Lung* and he is very likely an artificer from Imaskar or at least Anok-Imaskar**. While driven from power by the dragon-sage Chih Shih, it seems likely that this ancient and evil lich managed to possess at least one other Emperor at a later date, the seventh Emperor of the Li dynasty, who prior to his solitary journey to confront the Black Leopard Cult in southern Shou Lung was regarded as a hero of pure heart and convinctions, but after it became increasingly corrupt. Confusingly, also named Tan Chin.
After this, it becomes harder to trace the lich. It is very possible that periods of silence about him indicate that after defeats, it takes him centuries to gather his spiritual energies enough to be able to possess anyone of strong will. Also, he would often quest for mighty Imaskari magic, powerful enough to resist the Nine Immortals of Shou Lung, all of whom were now his sworn enemies.
At some point before 1300 DR, someone named Ambuchar Devayam leads a force of Durpari dissidents to Solon and takes over the city as Raja. This is Tan Chin, with a new plan to take over the former lands of Anok-Imaskar, to which he believes he has some claim. He masses his armies and invades Ra-Khati around 1305 DR or so. He does not succeed in taking the country, but does destroy the city of Khuskh and cause enough devastation so that Ra-Khati cuts of all contact with the outside world.
During the time between this war and the rise of Yamun Khahan, the Raja of Solon was occupied in building up an arcane arsenal and excavating Imaskari magic from Solon. He finally felt able to go on the offensive again in 1360 DR. He then conquers Ra-Khati and the Katakoro Plateu with an army of 10,000 undead and powerful magic enough to add constantly to his hordes as he wins victories.
In 1361 DR, the undead army from Solon invades Shou Lung through the Katakoro and go from victory to victory. Moving to the north, several cities are sacked and several armies destroyed, no doubt adding to the undead horde. At year's end, the Solonese invade Khazari through either Barkhul or Manass and the realm falls to them.
At this point, the source is silent about what the armies of Solon do next, but no doubt much horror is involved, as Shou Lung is open to them and Khazari, Ra-Khati and all the settlements of the Katakoro already under their thumb. At some point near the end of 1362 DR, based on the fact that it is the last event listed for that year, Raja Ambuchar Devayam, also known as Emperor Tan Chin, was 'killed' by adventurers using the Stone Scepter of Shih in the catacombs below Skarou, capital of Khazari.
Casting some doubt on the idea that he is permanently dead is the fact that a great dragon reported that she had torn the Raja Ambuchar Devayam to pieces several times already and that he had always returned after that and that a demigod/god/great dragon-sage had already used this Scepter to defeat Tan Chin and this had not permanently gotten rid of him either.
In 4e, there is a realm of undead named Khataroon and it is ruled by the four seperate consciousnesses of an evil body-jumping lich, defeated by adventurers previously. It is very plausible that this is what remains of Ra-Khati and that the defeat of Raja Ambucher Devayam did not completely get rid of his undead armies.
In light of that, these undead, even if Tan Chin does not manage to overcome his temporary setback to rule them until some time later, pose a dire threat to the northern mountain provinces of Shou Lung.
*The mythical Second Age with the reign of the Immortals, some of whom may be ruled concurrently due to the modern extent of the Empire encompassing much more territory than what Chang Cheng and his fellow Immortals appear to have ruled most of the time.
**An Imaskari survivor state that was recognised as the First Age of Shou Lung, occupying the eastern part of the former Imaskari Empire. |
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State of the Shou Lung (and Kara-Tur) in 1373 DR
