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Manstein
Acolyte
USA
6 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Mar 2012 : 04:51:19
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I'll make this short and sweet.
In a recent campaign the player characters managed to kill a young adult red dragon. One of the players had the skinning proficiency and with a LOT of luck (he rolled two one's on the d20) managed to get a pretty nice hide off of this thing. Now they are looking to have the skin/hide/scales crafted into some armor.
I'm at a complete loss at what to do. I know that some master smiths are going to be needed for this, but what type of bonuses would the armor give? It was a young adult, so it had a -4 AC, it was red, so maybe some fire resist, and it had a base 30% magic resistance, so maybe some of that as well. That being said, I really don't know what the stats of dragon armor would be and I am looking for some advice / direction on what to do.
Also, where in the world could they go in Faerun to get it made? The only smith I know of (and my knowledge of Faerun is limited)would be the smith from Baldur's Gate 2, but that's all the way in Athkatla.
Any thoughts? Thanks in advance.
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A coward is much more exposed to quarrels than a man of spirit.
-Thomas Jefferson
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2012 : 05:13:30
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Well it depends some on version, however the basic guide line was if you had enough gold a scale amour could be crafted that provides an increased resistance to fire attack/ saving throws, immunity to normal fire. In general the lore I recall the amour class of dragon does not transfer, that is AC -4 is not in the scales it was part of the life force, as was magic resistance.
The scale armor only provides some protection from fire and fire based attacks. If the PC wants MR or AC -4 he is having to need to pay much more for those enhancements.
Not sure if you are first or 2nd as 3rd did not use -AC. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2012 : 05:56:02
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| According to the 2e Monstrous Manual, a suit of dragon skin scale mail grants an AC of 4 less than the dragon's original AC. So in this case, it would give AC 0. It does not, however, give any other of the dragon's special abilities, like fire or magic resistance. If your player wants the armor to have those qualities, they can always seek out a wizard and get the armor enchanted. Skin of a red dragon would certainly qualify as an exotic component under 2e's magical creation rules, though the player would likely have to track down several more. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2012 : 08:03:15
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| This looks like side quest with result being a good suit of armor. Such good craftsmen are hard to find. It would be a good point to find great dwarven smithy. It is wise to find nearest clanhold or search through city. You could make players locate info first before finding a good artificer. Then... Well, it relies on city, region and a bit of imagination |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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Galuf the Dwarf
Senior Scribe
USA
713 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2012 : 15:01:32
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| Manstein, what edition are you playing? If 3.5, I'd consult the DMG & the Draconomicon. |
Galuf's Baldur's Gate NPC stats: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8823
Galuf's 3.5 Ed. Cleric Domains: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14036
Galuf's Homebrew 4th Edition Races: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13787
Galuf's Homebrew Specialty Priest PrCs: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14353
Galuf's Forgotten Realms Heralds and Allies thread: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8766 |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2012 : 15:52:11
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From the stats he's giving, he's playing either 1e or 2e. 2e had a Draconomicon of its own, which had a whole section on dragon hunting and what you could do with the corpse once you killed it, but the PC's seem to have gotten past that part already, and it doesn't have anything on what you'd do with the skin once you have it. It seems to just accept what's given in the MM (AC 4 less than dragon's, weight 25 lbs, no other special features).
I agree that probably the best group of smiths you're going to find are dwarves, preferably those in an area with long-standing dragons. Citadel Adbar comes to mind. Maybe Earthfast; they're renowned for their steel armor, so maybe they could also work dragonhide. Of course, both places are also under siege, so your PC's would have to do a bit of negotiating, and probably a great deal of fighting, to convince the dwarves to help. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2012 : 16:28:14
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| My players have pulled this every time they fought a dragon. I allowed non-magical bonuses to resistance (fire for red etc.) but no magic resistance. And it was a halfling master leather-worker that they sought, not a dwarven smith. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Manstein
Acolyte
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2012 : 18:41:39
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Galuf: I'm playing 2nd Edition
Hoondatha: I had no idea that 2nd Ed. had a dragons book of its own. I guess I need to do a little bitmore thorough searching and see about digging up that book.
Ok, all that information sounds about right now. I was able to go back and check the MC and see that it states there that any armor forged would be of 4 AC less than the dragon's AC and wouldn't have any innate magical properties.
That being said, I would think it is safe to assume that the armor would be highly enchantable, especially if a top notch smith forged the armor. Perhaps getting more "appropriate" enchantments such as fire resist might be somewhat easier than normal
Thanks for the help guys! |
A coward is much more exposed to quarrels than a man of spirit.
-Thomas Jefferson
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2012 : 19:28:54
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| AD&D 2E rules for dragonhide armors are present in the various Monstrous Compendiums, FOR1: Draconomicon. DMGR3: Arms & Equipment Guide, and (a few tidbits) in the DMG and DM Option: High-Level Campaigns. The rules are collectively incompatible and contradictory, but they at least provide a decent guideline. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2012 : 20:03:15
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-Where are the characters?
-Going with Dwarves is a general good idea, but, I mean, if the characters are nowhere near any kind of Dwarven settlements, schlepping all the way over to find one might not be the best idea, especially if there are theoretically other good choices closer. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Manstein
Acolyte
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2012 : 21:01:46
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They are just west of Thay, on the road to Emmech and just south of the Dragonjaw mountains.
The PCs have indicated that they are NOT, in the least bit, interested in going to Thay. |
A coward is much more exposed to quarrels than a man of spirit.
-Thomas Jefferson
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2012 : 21:27:54
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Yep. It's the original Draconomicon; same name, just published as a softcover back in 2e, and explicitly a Realms product, rather than generic D&D.
As for your characters, I would head toward Earthfast. It's at least somewhat on the way as you head west. I'd also give them a chance of finding a master armorer capable of doing the work in any city they search. There are certainly going to be some humans who can do it, just not very many of them, and not as easily identifiable as a dwarven stronghold.
The idea would be akin to the BG2 smith you mentioned, whose name is escaping me at the moment; one or two extremely talented individuals in the city. But even if you find such a master, it's no guarantee that they can work dragonhide. They might find a master smith that can do anything with adamantine and mithril, but nothing else (and then they can remember him or her for the next time). What their chances of finding someone would be are totally up to you, but should depend on the size of the city, how much trade is going on, and proximity to dwarves and dragons. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 01:26:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Manstein
The PCs have indicated that they are NOT, in the least bit, interested in going to Thay.
-I don't blame them. Since they're right in the neighborhood, maybe they might want to head west into Aglarond, and head to Velprintalar. It's a big city, and they wouldn't have any trouble finding worthy smithys, or magicians to enchant any armor that they make from the hide. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2012 : 07:43:57
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that is something I really hated when reading - the dragon armor rules in 2nd AD&D really were giving you a unique armor - regarding looks and stats.
In 3rd edition, dragon armor lost its protective value almost completely, for the rule "-4 of dragon AC" they did not transfer. maybe they should have changed a bit - a suit of armor giving armor bonus of +23 wouldbe a bit poverpowered, but still they should reflect some of the difficulties to get in being worthy stuff....
always having in mind that dragons in old AD&D fell much faster than in 3rd... but just my personal opinion here. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2012 : 09:21:54
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My personal opinion is just the opposite; those AD&D (1E) and 2E dragons - properly played - were just a lot harder to take down. Yes, they were amped up in 3E, yet the characters were amped up as well and far moreso, I think overall the 3E scales were balanced quite heavily against dragons. Still, that's just my bias, my opinion.
I would suggest the easiest way to handle such dragonhide/dragonscale armor would be to treat it as you would an exotic metal like mithril/etc - that is, give it fixed multipliers for protective AC, weight, cost, etc; perhaps increase these multipliers based on the dragon's age category. You would need to decide which armor templates could be fashioned from it (hide, scale, banded, plate?) and how it would compare against standard metal armors of the type; ie, would it be stiff and rigid or flexible and pliant, what penalties does it impose on dexterity and thief skills, etc. I imagine that those skilled in manufacturing leather armor would be better suited than metalsmiths; while this material might be shaped and hardened through boiling in special oils or alchemical preparations, it would likely be unworkable at the anvil. Special techniques might require special expertise known only to a few people (or only written in old tomes); most master armorers likely have no experience at all in working with this material, anything they do know about it is probably based on blacksmith myths or assumptions, their first attempts would probably waste some material and produce inferior or botched pieces. Dragons just aren't killed very often and not many such suits of armor are worn.
I would think such armor should provide some bonuses to saves or even magic resistance versus the particular attack forms to which the dragon was natively immune, so a red dragonscale should resist fire, white resists cold, etc. It might be argued that these sorts of resistance are intrinsic within the dragonhide and thus always present (which means red dragonscale would never burn), it might be argued that these resistances are magical in nature and thus require some enchantment be placed on the dragonhide to function. The 2E rules written about these qualities are not consistent. And obviously a full suit of the stuff would offer more complete protection than a breastplate. So many great opportunities for the DM to require research and sidequests (and spending gold!) if the players wish to find the right craftsman, secret knowledge, and exotic ingredients needed for fashioning such armor. Killing the dragon should be only half the battle.
The wearer of such armor would automatically attract certain attention from dragons (and dragonslayers). A red might condescendingly respect the wearer of dragonscale, since possession of such armor indicates the current owner is strong while the previous owner was weak. But a blue might see a character in dragonscale as being a challenger, a threat and territorial invader, or even just rudely insulting. And I would think every metallic dragon would be instantly affronted by anyone wearing golden dragonscale. Having said all that, I'm also confident that every dragon would be instantly wary of anyone wearing armor made from a dead dragon, especially armor which protects against their variety of dragon breath. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 08 Mar 2012 09:53:23 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2012 : 17:37:36
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| Druids are one of the few classes in 3e that benefit most from seeing out a dragonhide fullplate. They are allowed to use their class abilities while wearing it, while a normal (metal) fullplate would restrict them. So a good chance would be that druids are the ones to seek out when looking for someone with knowledge/techniques in crafting or enchanting a dragonskin armor. |
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mikie
Seeker
USA
73 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2012 : 02:19:16
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| I remember trying to do this with one of my old characters. i seemto remember also in a DRAGON MAGAZINE ( think it was a "BEST OF" collection) had information on how to craft the armor. It will probably take some MAJOR coins. As well as a vivid imagination. Hope this helps out. |
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Dragon Armor Stats?
