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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12084 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Mar 2012 : 18:39:40
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Oddly enough, this topic has come up not once... not twice... but at LEAST a dozen times with my co-workers at work. Also, oddly enough, none of them are D&D fans. However, in talking with them, I think there's a few things you need to note:
What kind of zombies? By this I mean the following:
Are they simply mentally afflicted (i.e. insane now)?
Are they magically afflicted (i.e. they don't breathe anymore)?
These two questions can lead to a lot of others
Do the zombies NEED to eat to survive? How often do they need to eat?
Do the zombies themselves spread their "state" to other beings, or are the zombies created through ritual?
Slow zombies or Fast zombies?
Mindless zombies or Zombies who are simply feral?
Will a zombie "bleed out" if shot and unattended, or does the brain need to be stopped?
Do the zombies need to breathe?
There's probably a half dozen more things to take into consideration. One of the main things I've thought is that if its a thing where they NEED to eat relatively constantly, holing up long enough for them to kill one another may be the answer. If they don't, then the game plan changes drastically.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2012 : 23:00:26
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Do the zombies need to breathe?
Is there such a thing? They're undead, so breathing is irrelevant. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2012 : 23:02:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Do the zombies need to breathe?
Is there such a thing? They're undead, so breathing is irrelevant.
The term 'zombie' has been used, in-universe and by outside observers, for any number of things that are not technically undead beings.
Infected humans, retrovirus-mutated new species, etc.
It's a broad term. Pretty much the only thing you can be sure of is that it will rarely be refering to anything related to the zombies of vodoun myth. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2012 : 23:27:56
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So mutated humans count as zombies? Hmm, for me, zombies are only these things:
They stink.
They don't breathe.
They eat meat of the dead and the living alike.
They can't eat each other.
They are single-minded.
They are usually controlled by necromancers or liches.
[They are the usual 'targets' of a plethora of games these days.]
Anything else that's not on this list is not a zombie, for me. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2012 : 23:33:22
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I understand and symphathise with that view. I too am in favour of having clear definitions for things.
So while a given fictional universe might call its monsters anything the author pleased, it might be a viable strategy for those discussing the work critically to adopt a unified nomenaclature, in much the same way as literary critics do.
I would personally favour decoupling the method of control or creation from the nature of the being, as to do otherwise would mean that once control was broken, the shambling dead body was no longer a zombie.
With that in mind, I favour calling non-volitional undead with flesh still on its bones 'zombies'. These may shamble around in some mockery of the living, but they do not run and they do not need to perform any biological functions.
The dead who retain some animal cunning, a desire for living flesh and are capable of burst of speed like hunting animals, I would call 'ghouls'. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12084 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2012 : 17:39:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Do the zombies need to breathe?
Is there such a thing? They're undead, so breathing is irrelevant.
See, there's where you have to answer that first question. Are these zombies in most horror flicks now "undead" or simply some "afflicted with some disease that lowers their mental capabilities and hypes up their hunger". If they're undead, then things become a lot different... factors like religion come into things (a person with a strong belief in the greater powers can just make them dissolve by calling upon his holy power). In this Zombie apocalypse world, would the sudden number of people who would turn to religion suddenly find their calling? Would a hierarchy of belief crazed priests rise up? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2012 : 17:42:13
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I thought mutated humans were technically CHUDs? (not zombies)
Anyhow, I am thinking if it happens, it will be something viral, so I am not sure if it would need to breath (depending on how many body-functions the virus needs to replicate to maintain itself). It would definitely need to eat (very basic function, even on a viral level), but I doubt it would prefer a certain 'cuisine' ("Brains!!!")
You know, Native Americans have a story about their 'great chiefs' coming back and returning their land - that legend existed from the point the 'white man' first landed on the eastern coast... and it was prophesized by a western medicine man, from a tribe that wouldn't even meet the white man for many years (he 'saw' them landing, from 3500 miles away).
Funny how that syncs with the Judeo-Christian mythos regarding the 'End of Days'.
I'm not saying the world will end in 2012, but I'd rather be prepared... just in case. 
And the 'Snooki theory' regarding the Mayan calender and the end of the world in 2012 is the funniest I've read.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Mar 2012 17:47:31 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12084 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2012 : 17:51:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
I understand and symphathise with that view. I too am in favour of having clear definitions for things.
So while a given fictional universe might call its monsters anything the author pleased, it might be a viable strategy for those discussing the work critically to adopt a unified nomenaclature, in much the same way as literary critics do.
I would personally favour decoupling the method of control or creation from the nature of the being, as to do otherwise would mean that once control was broken, the shambling dead body was no longer a zombie.
With that in mind, I favour calling non-volitional undead with flesh still on its bones 'zombies'. These may shamble around in some mockery of the living, but they do not run and they do not need to perform any biological functions.
The dead who retain some animal cunning, a desire for living flesh and are capable of burst of speed like hunting animals, I would call 'ghouls'.
Good point, however, that being said, its still questions... are these "undead" ghouls or "diseased/insane" ghouls. The undead versus weird natural/staged phenomena is a big question. As I stated above, if its undead, that implies magic may work... and if magic may work divine power may exist. If its not undead... then physical attributes like a body not being able to move without "energy" in the form of food periodically (and possibly cannibalism amongst the ghouls even... or can they only eat freshly dead corpses?). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Thrasymachus
Learned Scribe
195 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2012 : 20:56:56
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Realms: In the Realms, a Zombie apocalypse Realms Shaking event thingy? I suppose I call it 6th edition, and whine about it.
Real Life/Walking Dead situation: I am in Northern New Jersey USA. I throw all the camping/hiking/fishing equipment in the back of the vehicle with the family. I then make for the Delaware river. I then abscond a boat, and wait it out on the water. Cause Zombie dont swim
son.
Chances are theres a radio on the boat, and I listen for the coast guard, and I just wait for Seal Team Six to solve it. If that doesn't work out, well then it's the fishing trip of my dreams.
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Former Forgotten Realms brand manager Jim Butler: "Everything that bears the Forgotten Realms logo is considered canon". |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2012 : 22:03:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Thrasymachus
Realms: In the Realms, a Zombie apocalypse Realms Shaking event thingy? I suppose I call it 6th edition, and whine about it.
-I really doubt that there could be such a thing, given the sheer size of Faerūn, plus attaching landmasses. 'Regional Shaking Events' that entailed Undead hordes, we know have happened- Tan Chin's march through the Hordelands for example. Localized events like that seem more likely. And, in most zombie apocalypse stories/shows I've seen, that's usually the case- we usually don't know what's happening in other parts of America, or the rest of the world. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2012 : 00:03:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Thrasymachus
Realms: In the Realms, a Zombie apocalypse Realms Shaking event thingy? I suppose I call it 6th edition, and whine about it.
-I really doubt that there could be such a thing, given the sheer size of Faerūn, plus attaching landmasses. 'Regional Shaking Events' that entailed Undead hordes, we know have happened- Tan Chin's march through the Hordelands for example. Localized events like that seem more likely. And, in most zombie apocalypse stories/shows I've seen, that's usually the case- we usually don't know what's happening in other parts of America, or the rest of the world.
Szass Tam and the Eminence might try that, but I DOUBT they'd ever succeed. There are too many big fishes in Faerun that could gobble all manner of undead. Some, literally. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2012 : 02:05:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Szass Tam and the Eminence might try that, but I DOUBT they'd ever succeed. There are too many big fishes in Faerun that could gobble all manner of undead. Some, literally.
-I don't know anything about the 'Eminence', but global domination via Undead doesn't really seem like Szass Tam's schtick. He went that route to take over Thay, but other than that, for decades he seemed content to stay more or less within the bounds of Thay (with invasions into Rasheman, of course). He's also smart enough to realize the above, and not even bother. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2012 : 04:24:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Szass Tam and the Eminence might try that, but I DOUBT they'd ever succeed. There are too many big fishes in Faerun that could gobble all manner of undead. Some, literally.
-I don't know anything about the 'Eminence', but global domination via Undead doesn't really seem like Szass Tam's schtick. He went that route to take over Thay, but other than that, for decades he seemed content to stay more or less within the bounds of Thay (with invasions into Rasheman, of course). He's also smart enough to realize the above, and not even bother.
He's mad. And to mad people, everything is possible. Say, he successfully seized Neverwinter and some of the surrounding lands; erected the Dread Rings there; tried to cast the Ritual of Unmaking but failed, realizing that more DRs are needed to channel enough power for the ritual. Then he conquered Rashemen; did the same there, and again failed, this time, realizing that a hundred DRs are what he needs, spaced out from each other in an area as big as Faerun...You see where this is going? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2012 : 04:32:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
He's mad. And to mad people, everything is possible. Say, he successfully seized Neverwinter and some of the surrounding lands; erected the Dread Rings there; tried to cast the Ritual of Unmaking but failed, realizing that more DRs are needed to channel enough power for the ritual. Then he conquered Rashemen; did the same there, and again failed, this time, realizing that a hundred DRs are what he needs, spaced out from each other in an area as big as Faerun...You see where this is going?
-Mad as in angry, or mad as in insane? If it's the latter, is that a new development, because Tam never seemed any more insane than any other powerful, near-immortal magician with delusions of grandeur and the theoretical power to back it up.
-That said, attacking a nation like Rasheman, which has historically been somewhat isolated and solitary, is a lot different from laying siege on a Cormyr, or a Waterdeep. Rasheman has her protectors from a mostly self-contained population, and that's really it. Cormyr has a force just as powerful (if not moreso), plus allies. Waterdeep, the same. Plus, those nations are quite far from Thay. While, being a powerful necromancer, he has the ability to replenish his troops as they march, the further he/his army is from Thay, his seat of power, the more vulnerable he/his army is. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2012 : 04:39:59
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Easily solved because he's got more necromancers to raise their dead foes. One realm at a time... Again, I'm not seeing him pulling it off; but it doesn't mean he won't try. He may be a careful and calculating bastard, but he's insane as well. Anyone who thinks the gods and the world should be destroyed by his own hands to create a new universe is, well, not sane. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2012 : 04:53:37
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He doesn't just think it. He's doing everything in his power to make it come true... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Varl
Learned Scribe
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2012 : 16:52:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
The dead who retain some animal cunning, a desire for living flesh and are capable of burst of speed like hunting animals, I would call 'ghouls'.
Yes! Too often, ghouls are depicted in shows, but are erroneously called zombies. Speed definitely matters. Zombies aren't generally well built, what's left of them that is, for sprinting after their next meal. Ghouls do that in packs. |
I'm on a permanent vacation to the soul. -Tash Sultana |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2012 : 14:28:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Szass Tam and the Eminence might try that, but I DOUBT they'd ever succeed. There are too many big fishes in Faerun that could gobble all manner of undead. Some, literally.
Most of those 'Big Fish' are dead in 4e, or so under-powered now as to be negligible.
Not only can I see it succeeding, but it SHOULD - the entire world should have gone to hell after the Chosen fell, and the Harpers disappeared. Ed's balancing-factors were all removed... 4e makes no sense from a power-perspective. The logic of the setting (along with a LOT of the flavor) has all been boiled-away.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2012 : 14:58:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Szass Tam and the Eminence might try that, but I DOUBT they'd ever succeed. There are too many big fishes in Faerun that could gobble all manner of undead. Some, literally.
Most of those 'Big Fish' are dead in 4e, or so under-powered now as to be negligible.
Not only can I see it succeeding, but it SHOULD - the entire world should have gone to hell after the Chosen fell, and the Harpers disappeared. Ed's balancing-factors were all removed... 4e makes no sense from a power-perspective. The logic of the setting (along with a LOT of the flavor) has all been boiled-away.
The entire world did go to hell.
I just re-read the FRCG. The world has ended. It just takes time. But human civilisation there is drawing on finite resources to sustain even the minimal settlements still endure. But we shouldn't really expect that to continue indefinitely.
The world is essentially in a dark mirror of what our world experienced after the fall of Rome. You know, if the 'barbarians' had really been inhuman and desired things like making armies of undead, the ultimate end of existence or the extinguishing of the sun.
While I'm sure that many authors will try to write hopeful stories, I don't quite buy into them. One person or a small adventuring band aren't going to fix the problem of most of Faerun's fertile acricultural land being ruined and the international trade that formerly supported extensive specialisation and economic surpluses now being essentially impractical.
In the process of making their 'sequel' more 'exciting', more explosive and more killer-monster-epic-cool, it seems to me that the creative team introduced problems that can't be solved by heroism and lock the setting into a more-or-less inevitable cycle of descent that seems to have only depressing possible end states. While sufficiently advanced magic might fix it, all previous attempts to use magic for something so macroscale yet precise have ended up having worse unintended consequences than the initial problem. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2012 : 22:21:11
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| -I don't think things are that dire. Especially with spells like Wish, Miracle, or other "instant win" type spells that can be invoked to fix anything that is theoretically too problematic- especially regarding agriculture. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2012 : 07:54:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Szass Tam and the Eminence might try that, but I DOUBT they'd ever succeed. There are too many big fishes in Faerun that could gobble all manner of undead. Some, literally.
Most of those 'Big Fish' are dead in 4e, or so under-powered now as to be negligible.
Not only can I see it succeeding, but it SHOULD - the entire world should have gone to hell after the Chosen fell, and the Harpers disappeared. Ed's balancing-factors were all removed... 4e makes no sense from a power-perspective. The logic of the setting (along with a LOT of the flavor) has all been boiled-away.
I disagree. If it were the case, no 'goodly' realms should have survived. Yes, they nuked some, but some remain strong, or least, are holding up.
And why would the Realms shatter after the Chosen's fall? They're not the only 'police' in the world. Even when some gods die, the world lives on... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Zombie Apocalypse: Arm Yourself!
