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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 06:43:30
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Okay, more than one person has asked for this... Keep in mind, it's all really rough.
Also, part of what I was doing was trying to get rid of Velsharoon, whom I dislike, and to power-up Mask, whom I do like. And I've always seen Azuth as a bit redundant, too...
Here's the rough idea:
It starts with Mask. Mask gets an idea, and sets out some serious sneakiness to pull it off. He has one of his theifly followers approach a Sharran priestess, wanting to know about the Karsestone. The theif explains "his" theory that the Karsestone could hide someone from Mystra's awareness, since she's a deity of magic and it belonged to a former deity of magic... (This is drawing on one of my earlier ideas, and was obviously inspired by how Spider-Man can't sense Venom).
The priest of Mask says that if he was shielded by the Karsestone, he could sneak into Dweomerheart and make off with whatever he wanted -- making him the greatest thief who ever lived, because who else has stolen from a god?
The priestess thinks this is a nifty idea, and speaks to Shar about it. Shar, of course, sees more potential there. She presents the idea to Cyric. Cyric is of course gung ho about it, and wants to do it.
Shar gives him the Karsestone and wraps her own shielding magic around him. Though he doesn't know it, her shield is also a scrying device and conduit -- she wants Mystra's power for herself, and also wants to watch what happens.
So Cyric sneaks in and goes stabby-stabby. Mystra dies in a huge explosion. Instead of being able to snag the Weave, Shar instead catches some of that blast, channeled back thru her own conduit. She is gravely wounded, and loses control of the Shadow Weave.
At ground zero, Cyric is also gravely wounded, and winds up blasted across the planes.
Because of his injury, Shar's injury, and the fact that it all happened thru Mask's manipulation, Cyric loses Intrigue. Mask happily snatches that up. And Shar is also very weakened, allowing Mask to solidify his hold on Shadow, which Shar was moving on.
Mask returns to his full strength, Cyric gets skrewt, and Shar suffers the loss of power that was so readily hinted at -- and then ignored -- in the so-called supermodules that ended 3E. (I was really bothered by the way they hinted she was going to take a hit, and then made her even more prominent)
Meanwhile, Azuth and Savras, acting quickly, grab the Weave before it can do more than get overly wobbly. We've maybe got some increased wild magic in the Realms, but nothing approaching the scale of the Sellplague.
Azuth summons several of the Chosen to Battledale, where they gather near the statue of Mystra by the Pool of Yeven (there's got to be some significance about Azuth guarding it during the Time of Troubles).
One of the Chosen, Storm maybe, brings some item that was a power key of Mystryl's (this part is iffy, and could be dropped).
Dove brings the Black Star, an enormous black sapphire that was one of the few power keys Shar has ever given out (making the Black Star a power key was inspired by the use of power keys in Tymora's Luck).
Savras foresees Velsharoon trying to interfere in what's about to happen, and warns the others. Vellie shows up, claiming he wants to help bring back his mistress -- really, he intends to try to siphon off the power and replace her himself.
Azuth begins the ritual, and Savras, Vellie, and the Chosen join in. Vellie tries to siphon off the gathered power into himself, but Dove slays his avatar and absorbs his power. She then destroys (smashes!) the Black Star, and uses the combined power of it and Vellie to grab the still-uncontrolled Shadow Weave.
The ritual reaches its height, and there's a blinding flash of light. When everything returns to normal, none of the three deities that were there remain. The statue is gone, too, and most of the Chosen are also gone. What is there is a reborn Mystra (maybe named something different, though I'm not sure what). The new Mystra has reabsorbed the power of the fallen Chosen and of the other deities of magic, and is back to being a true neutral Greater Goddess, in control of both the Weave and the Shadow Weave (which gets absorbed back into the Weave, I'm thinking, and helps keep her neutral).
And that gives us a new, neutral magic deity, gets the troublesome Shadow Weave out of the way, reduces the number of Chosen, incorporates that ignored weakness of Shar, and draws on various tidbits of prior lore.
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 26 Feb 2012 06:48:41
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 06:58:45
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Wooly, this is awesome. It explains Marchayn's last words (from the OGB FRCS), and it makes sense. I have a theory as to why things didn't go down in a more similar manner to this, but it's best not posted; I'm trying to be a kinder, gentler Jakk with a new edition in the works.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 07:09:13
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| However, thinking about it as I checked on my dinner (which is nearly done), I would keep Azuth around... having separate deities of magic and magic-users (with the latter in service to the former) is, I think, in some ways fundamental to the way Mystryl/Mystra works... however, doing away with Savras and Velsharoon (especially the latter) suits me just fine; if we want a deity of necromancy, I like the idea of making Vecna multispheric... and I love what's done to Shar, for reasons related to my aforementioned theory. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Thieran
Learned Scribe
Germany
293 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 11:56:32
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| Nice one, Rupert! |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11809 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 12:52:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Okay, more than one person has asked for this... Keep in mind, it's all really rough.
Also, part of what I was doing was trying to get rid of Velsharoon, whom I dislike, and to power-up Mask, whom I do like. And I've always seen Azuth as a bit redundant, too...
See this just goes to show one thing to me. We both love the same world and have totally different views on some things (not that that's wrong or anything). I liked having Azuth as a lawful neutral lord of general wizardry, but I also gave him a particular portrayal as a master of transmutation and abjuration magics (a master of protective magics and magics which change the "nature" of things). I loved having Velsharoon as a god of all magic necromantic (whether wizardry, divine, or even offshoots like necrocarnates and dread necromancers). Savras, of course, was the god of divination. I even had Leira not really dead as the goddess of illusions and deceptive enchantments. Then there was Talos running around with his alias as Malyk (lord of wild and destructive magic) and attempting to gather a base of worshippers who favored evocation magics in all forms (wizardry, divine, and others). This covered the bases of evocation, enchantment, illusion, divination, necromancy, abjuration, and transmutation, leaving only conjuration/summoning... which I felt could be covered by many deities depending on which aspect you wanted to focus on. Basically (in my version), Mystra was seen to be mastering the weave, but these other deities behind the scenes had control over their piece and COULD in theory override her and provide access to their portion of the weave to one who was denied (Azuth being even greater in the form that he could provide access to all wizard spells rather than just a single school... but only wizardry, unlike others who might be able to supply from variant arcane sources, etc...). In fact, in some instances (Velsharoon and Leira), I even played with the idea that they had tapped into both the weave and shadow weave (though this never saw actual table play, it was something I had in the back of my mind).
Anyway, not saying either of our thoughts are better than the other, just noting how wonderful the realms is that it can hold both of our theories and not be world shattering. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11809 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 13:21:15
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Okay, more than one person has asked for this... Keep in mind, it's all really rough.
Also, part of what I was doing was trying to get rid of Velsharoon, whom I dislike, and to power-up Mask, whom I do like. And I've always seen Azuth as a bit redundant, too...
See this just goes to show one thing to me. We both love the same world and have totally different views on some things (not that that's wrong or anything). I liked having Azuth as a lawful neutral lord of general wizardry, but I also gave him a particular portrayal as a master of transmutation and abjuration magics (a master of protective magics and magics which change the "nature" of things). I loved having Velsharoon as a god of all magic necromantic (whether wizardry, divine, or even offshoots like necrocarnates and dread necromancers). Savras, of course, was the god of divination. I even had Leira not really dead as the goddess of illusions and deceptive enchantments. Then there was Talos running around with his alias as Malyk (lord of wild and destructive magic) and attempting to gather a base of worshippers who favored evocation magics in all forms (wizardry, divine, and others). This covered the bases of evocation, enchantment, illusion, divination, necromancy, abjuration, and transmutation, leaving only conjuration/summoning... which I felt could be covered by many deities depending on which aspect you wanted to focus on. Basically (in my version), Mystra was seen to be mastering the weave, but these other deities behind the scenes had control over their piece and COULD in theory override her and provide access to their portion of the weave to one who was denied (Azuth being even greater in the form that he could provide access to all wizard spells rather than just a single school... but only wizardry, unlike others who might be able to supply from variant arcane sources, etc...). In fact, in some instances (Velsharoon and Leira), I even played with the idea that they had tapped into both the weave and shadow weave (though this never saw actual table play, it was something I had in the back of my mind).
Anyway, not saying either of our thoughts are better than the other, just noting how wonderful the realms is that it can hold both of our theories and not be world shattering.
Ah, just one other point, there would also be other deities similar to Azuth and how Azuth is just for wizardry, but for psionics (as psionics is just another "mystery" in the web of Mystra). That would be Auppenser. However, due to lack of worshippers, he has a very small foothold.
Similiarly, I had some of those other deities of magic working into other "fields" of worshippers. For instance, Velsharoon was working his way into those who practiced the soul energy based magic of incarnum. Also, the second I saw the idea of binders, I felt it was perfect for Velsharoon (thus, when I designed his mortal character sheet, I had him have ability as a binder), and I would have developed it that his church was actually the reason for a resurgence in binder magic. As the binders became more prominent, he would also attempt to turn this towards himself taking over the portfolio of conjuration/summoning magic (after slaying Thasmudyan (from the isle of the necromancer kings... which he visited in his youth and learned to be a dread necromancer), Gargauth, and possibly some lesser demon lord <not Orcus, as he makes a good foe of Velsharoon who isn't good>).
Also similiarly, Leira works towards a resurgence of those who would study the magic of beguilers. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 16:29:41
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Well, getting Savras, Azuth, and Vellie out of the picture isn't an abolute necessity... It was just part of the initial idea. I've long found Azuth a bit redundant, and I'm not keen on having a couple schools of magic represented by deities, but not others.
I could accept Vellie a lot more readily, if he did become the deity of undeath, instead of just necromancy and liches. It would be even cooler, I think, if he cut into Talos's power a bit and became the deity of destructive magic.
My idea could also work leaving Azuth, Savras, and Vellie in place, but taking a little bit of power from each of them -- Azuth and Savras would give willingly, and Vellie, not so willingly. In fact, doing that could tie Vellie more to Mystra, and nix his alliance with Talos. Alternatively, Azuth could sacrifice himself, leaving the other two around.
Either way, my thinking is that with Mystra having been killed on her home plane, she couldn't simply pop back up as the next flavor -- she would need to reclaim some of the essence invested in the Chosen to come back as something close to Mystra in personality, and the boost from the other deities of magic would be needed to restore her to full or near-full power.
I've also speculated elsewhere that that statue may be a past servant of Mystra, turned to stone (perhaps willingly) to preserve some of Mystra's power. After all, there has to be some reason Azuth guarded it... But that's why I sited everything right there.
Oh, and to restate my original goal with this one... One of the stated reasons for the way things went down in the 4E transition was that people didn't like the "good" version of Mystra, and that the Chosen were too prominent (insert much eye-rolling, for the entire sentence). I was trying to remove Mystra and reduce the number of Chosen, but keep it tied to past lore and also somewhat reasonably executed. Unlike in the 4E transition, I did not want an RSE, and I did not want to permanently off Mystra.
I also did not state how many or which Chosen sacrificed themselves.
I will also acknowledge that my original idea does do something the original 4E designers were accused of: removing past elements of Realmslore because I felt like it. I think, though, that some leeway can be had, because I was at least doing so in a way that had some explanation and some connection to prior lore. Also, this never progressed past Rough Idea 3.0 status; so nothing is set in stone. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 02:18:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
<chop>... I'm not keen on having a couple schools of magic represented by deities, but not others.
I could accept Vellie a lot more readily, if he did become the deity of undeath, instead of just necromancy and liches. It would be even cooler, I think, if he cut into Talos's power a bit and became the deity of destructive magic.
I agree with you completely on the first point; I've been working on expanding that part of the pantheon, but I've already completely scrapped two attempts, and going back a third time is taking some motivation that I presently lack. 
I love your ideas re: Velsharoon, and I would give all school-specific deities another aspect in the same way. Savras would serve two masters (Mystra and Oghma), and so would Velsharoon (Mystra and Myrkul, in my FR). Leira would serve Mystra and Mask, with an Ao-mandated NDA prohibiting Mystra and Mask from asking Leira what the other is up to (because this would be against Leira's ethos; by the same token, Savras would be obligated to share relevant learnings between Oghma and Mystra). Now I'm feeling a bit more motivated to get back to finding deities for the other five schools... many thanks, Wooly!
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
My idea could also work leaving Azuth, Savras, and Vellie in place, but taking a little bit of power from each of them -- Azuth and Savras would give willingly, and Vellie, not so willingly. In fact, doing that could tie Vellie more to Mystra, and nix his alliance with Talos. Alternatively, Azuth could sacrifice himself, leaving the other two around.
Either way, my thinking is that with Mystra having been killed on her home plane, she couldn't simply pop back up as the next flavor -- she would need to reclaim some of the essence invested in the Chosen to come back as something close to Mystra in personality, and the boost from the other deities of magic would be needed to restore her to full or near-full power.
I've also speculated elsewhere that that statue may be a past servant of Mystra, turned to stone (perhaps willingly) to preserve some of Mystra's power. After all, there has to be some reason Azuth guarded it... But that's why I sited everything right there.
I like the flexibility left in the plan here. All of this, I completely agree with, and it fits together nicely with the lore we have concerning past deaths of Mystra... but then, I expected that it would... and would have been irritated otherwise.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Oh, and to restate my original goal with this one... One of the stated reasons for the way things went down in the 4E transition was that people didn't like the "good" version of Mystra, and that the Chosen were too prominent (insert much eye-rolling, for the entire sentence). I was trying to remove Mystra and reduce the number of Chosen, but keep it tied to past lore and also somewhat reasonably executed. Unlike in the 4E transition, I did not want an RSE, and I did not want to permanently off Mystra.
I also did not state how many or which Chosen sacrificed themselves.
All of this, I very much approve of.  Personally, I prefer Mystra 1.0 to Mystra 2.0 as well, which (combined with my preference for Bhaal, Leira, and Myrkul over Cyric and Kelemvor) is why I still seriously entertain the idea of an OGB reboot, at least for my own Realms.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I will also acknowledge that my original idea does do something the original 4E designers were accused of: removing past elements of Realmslore because I felt like it. I think, though, that some leeway can be had, because I was at least doing so in a way that had some explanation and some connection to prior lore. Also, this never progressed past Rough Idea 3.0 status; so nothing is set in stone.
 I'm not seeing the removal of anything here; I might be tired, or the calories from the dinner I'm halfway through might not be reaching my brain yet... but I'm not noticing an absence. Never mind... I found it; I still have trouble thinking of anything taking place later than 1375 as lore, and not for any preferential reasons; my last Realms campaign that I DM'ed ended in 1375. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 27 Feb 2012 02:21:14 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 04:09:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
.....<snip>
One of the stated reasons for the way things went down in the 4E transition was that people didn't like the "good" version of Mystra, and that the Chosen were too prominent (insert much eye-rolling, for the entire sentence).....<snip>
The prominence of the Chosen was something published adventures set in the Realms had to take into account for. Lets look at the famous Shadowdale: Scouring of the Land adventure in which NONE of the Chosen were around. Why? Because they had to remove them and to do so, they blew up Elminster's house. Aglarond, Shadowdale, and Silverymoon are all locations that required the removal of their respective "leaders" in order to have valid mid-level adventures happening for PCs to thwart. Otherwise, why isn't the Chosen stepping in and stopping this? If say a mid-level threat (demons of the CR 9 to 14 rage) were to happen within the hallowed walls of Silverymoon, Alustriel had better put that problem down first before flying her flaming chariot over some distant, back-water battlefield where Orcs and Men are fighting.
But in homebrew Realms games, this isn't as much a problem because DMs can (and should) hand-wave whatever they want. Waterdeep was big enough for Khelban and Laeral not to notice (or at least act upon) threats until they grew TOO serious, which would mean something in the high teens to 20's level adventures. Prominence has it's place, that is until someons feels obligated to do a full write-up of a Chosen for the books setting in Stone what they can do in combat. It definitly takes the wind out of player's sails when they look a threat that could possibly destory them and know in the back of their mind, that Alustriel could end this within 3 rounds and be none the worse for wear. But perhaps it's that exact "statting" that was the problem and not prominence in the first place?
As for the "Good" version of Mystra, yea that I had a problem with. She's the only deity I know with two sets of Alignments and I had a problem with that. Namely because of the "If she's good, why does she allow evil to happen?" sort of opinion. That and her extreme power over the weave and the ability to sever that from spellcasters. Not saying I've ever read that happening or even seen it in play, but fundamentally I find something wrong with that sort of empowement. Or possibly because her following was a lot less than what it should've been with the understand of the limitless power she wielded. Seriously, any Mage on Faerûn knows how they access their magic pre-Spellplague.....through the Weave. So if a Goddess controls the Weave (ya know, your main source of power) then there is a good bet I'm going to be a strong follower of that deity. Which, of course, would make her the most powerful god in the Pantheon, under Ao (who doesn't give a rats-behind anyways).
If they're going to bring Mystra back (and I believe they will), they need to make a stand on where she is in her beliefs and Morals. Personally, I think she should be True Neutra (or Unaligned). Magic isn't necessarily good or evil (though some mechanics put descriptors on them) but it's how a person wields that power and for what gains. Mystra should be a reflection of that understanding, thus not be swayed by Good or Evil, Chaos or Law because magic incorporates all of those aspects equally. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 05:07:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
.....<snip>
One of the stated reasons for the way things went down in the 4E transition was that people didn't like the "good" version of Mystra, and that the Chosen were too prominent (insert much eye-rolling, for the entire sentence).....<snip>
The prominence of the Chosen was something published adventures set in the Realms had to take into account for. Lets look at the famous Shadowdale: Scouring of the Land adventure in which NONE of the Chosen were around. Why? Because they had to remove them and to do so, they blew up Elminster's house. Aglarond, Shadowdale, and Silverymoon are all locations that required the removal of their respective "leaders" in order to have valid mid-level adventures happening for PCs to thwart. Otherwise, why isn't the Chosen stepping in and stopping this? If say a mid-level threat (demons of the CR 9 to 14 rage) were to happen within the hallowed walls of Silverymoon, Alustriel had better put that problem down first before flying her flaming chariot over some distant, back-water battlefield where Orcs and Men are fighting.
But in homebrew Realms games, this isn't as much a problem because DMs can (and should) hand-wave whatever they want. Waterdeep was big enough for Khelban and Laeral not to notice (or at least act upon) threats until they grew TOO serious, which would mean something in the high teens to 20's level adventures. Prominence has it's place, that is until someons feels obligated to do a full write-up of a Chosen for the books setting in Stone what they can do in combat. It definitly takes the wind out of player's sails when they look a threat that could possibly destory them and know in the back of their mind, that Alustriel could end this within 3 rounds and be none the worse for wear. But perhaps it's that exact "statting" that was the problem and not prominence in the first place?
As for the "Good" version of Mystra, yea that I had a problem with. She's the only deity I know with two sets of Alignments and I had a problem with that. Namely because of the "If she's good, why does she allow evil to happen?" sort of opinion. That and her extreme power over the weave and the ability to sever that from spellcasters. Not saying I've ever read that happening or even seen it in play, but fundamentally I find something wrong with that sort of empowement. Or possibly because her following was a lot less than what it should've been with the understand of the limitless power she wielded. Seriously, any Mage on Faerûn knows how they access their magic pre-Spellplague.....through the Weave. So if a Goddess controls the Weave (ya know, your main source of power) then there is a good bet I'm going to be a strong follower of that deity. Which, of course, would make her the most powerful god in the Pantheon, under Ao (who doesn't give a rats-behind anyways).
If they're going to bring Mystra back (and I believe they will), they need to make a stand on where she is in her beliefs and Morals. Personally, I think she should be True Neutra (or Unaligned). Magic isn't necessarily good or evil (though some mechanics put descriptors on them) but it's how a person wields that power and for what gains. Mystra should be a reflection of that understanding, thus not be swayed by Good or Evil, Chaos or Law because magic incorporates all of those aspects equally.
The Realms had a dozen Chosen, and millions of other sentients. The Chosen were only a problem because WotC and TSR before them kept shoving them into the spotlight as much as possible.
My issue with Mystra's alignment is the fact that it never had any in-game relevance, and was only a plotpoint that was resolved in the one novel it appeared in. It is, in other words, a non-issue that somehow became this major concern. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 06:11:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The Realms had a dozen Chosen, and millions of other sentients. The Chosen were only a problem because WotC and TSR before them kept shoving them into the spotlight as much as possible.
Agreed, though it can't help the fact that they are, for lack of a better word, superheros. That's not to say they dress up with capes, fly around, and save every injustice. But their power exceeds that of any 2000 mortals with Epic, world-breaking spells and abilities (at least, on paper) when contrasted with the rest of the world. When 80% of your populace are NPC class characters from level 1-7, a Fighter 1/ Rogue 2/ Cleric 3/ Wizard 24/ Archmage 5 (Chosen of Mystra) that hears the first few words of a sentence after their name is called on that particular plane........well they're going to get that sort of reputation. Had they not have gave them full stat write-ups, I think it would've helped keep them in the background (where they're supposed to be) instead of a Monster or adversary to overcome at some point in a Character career. But I will concede that it was more the spotlight attention of the novels than anything really going on in the Setting.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
My issue with Mystra's alignment is the fact that it never had any in-game relevance, and was only a plotpoint that was resolved in the one novel it appeared in. It is, in other words, a non-issue that somehow became this major concern.
What book, may I ask? I might have or have not read it and would like to go back to that particular point. In any case, what was the final decision of her Alignment? Is she, afterall, Lawful Neutral? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 10:58:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
My issue with Mystra's alignment is the fact that it never had any in-game relevance, and was only a plotpoint that was resolved in the one novel it appeared in. It is, in other words, a non-issue that somehow became this major concern.
What book, may I ask? I might have or have not read it and would like to go back to that particular point. In any case, what was the final decision of her Alignment? Is she, afterall, Lawful Neutral?
It was either Prince of Lies or Crucible. I think the latter... And the final outcome was that her alignment didn't matter, she had to be LN in regards to how she handled magic. Her favoring good use of magic and weakening evil magic was mentioned in that book, and she was slapped down for it. This favorship was never reflected in-game, and wasn't even mentioned outside of that book. So how it became such a big issue is utterly beyond me. |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 12:04:32
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Well her alignemnt in the FRCS is Neutral good (or Lawfull neutral as alternative, but the main indication is neutral good) and this creates the questions Diffan mentioned, for example why would a good god support evil spellcasters.
So in my opinion the only way to have this work well is to make Mystra True Neutral. |
Edited by - _Jarlaxle_ on 27 Feb 2012 12:05:31 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 18:20:22
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
Well her alignemnt in the FRCS is Neutral good (or Lawfull neutral as alternative, but the main indication is neutral good) and this creates the questions Diffan mentioned, for example why would a good god support evil spellcasters.
So in my opinion the only way to have this work well is to make Mystra True Neutral.
Why does a good deity of the sun allow the sun to shine on evil people? Why does a good deity of luck let evil people have good luck? Why does a good goddess of nature allow plants to grow in evil nations?
If we're going to play the game of questioning alignment, we need to do it across the board, and not just for Mystra. That, or we need to admit that for purposes of administering the portfolio, deific alignment is irrelevant. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 19:07:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
Well her alignemnt in the FRCS is Neutral good (or Lawfull neutral as alternative, but the main indication is neutral good) and this creates the questions Diffan mentioned, for example why would a good god support evil spellcasters.
So in my opinion the only way to have this work well is to make Mystra True Neutral.
Why does a good deity of the sun allow the sun to shine on evil people? Why does a good deity of luck let evil people have good luck? Why does a good goddess of nature allow plants to grow in evil nations?
If we're going to play the game of questioning alignment, we need to do it across the board, and not just for Mystra. That, or we need to admit that for purposes of administering the portfolio, deific alignment is irrelevant.
Amaunator/Lathander is the God of the Sun, but he doesn't control the Sun. He is not the reason it exists nor could he destory it if he wanted (unless you think otherwise). Akadi is the goddess of Wind, but she can't control who breathes air. Mystra is supposedly the Goddess of the Weave, and the direct access of spellcasters on the plane. Personally, I never believed she had the ability to sever one's connection to the Weave or stop spellcasters from drawing from it. What she does/did was make sure all works well with the Weave, makes sure people can't draw TOO MUCH from it (ie. Karsus-style spells) and makes Epic Spells ridiculously hard to prepare and cast because of their scope within the setting.
But on the whole, elements with no direct correlation to good and evil should have patron deities reflect that alignment. Magic just is. It's not inherently Good or Evil, it's not naturally Chaotic or Lawful. Same with Nature, but I'd conceded that it's more basic and primal, tending to put Chaos ahead of Law (though there is natural law to conform to). Magic and Nature and Elements should all fall into the Neutral areas of Good and Evil and sway (just a bit) in either a Lawful or Chaotic fashion depending on several influences. For example, Wizards are often orderly, disciplined, and studious which (to me) makes them more bent to be Lawful, respecting things that follow an orderly process. Rangers, by comparison, don't give a whit about man-made laws or laws a person puts on a land. Natural order is what holds thier sway and so they're often more Chaotic beings.
So if Mystra doesn't have the power to sever people connection to the Weave or make it stop working for certain individuals, then I'm OK with her alignment swaying more towards Good (Midnight, her once mortal being was Good afterall). However, if you accredit her with the power to stop magic where/when ever she pleases, then I'd have a problem with her being Good as most Good people don't enjoy watching evil succeed. This, to me, is one of those cases where she can't have her cake and eat it too without completly shattering my reasoning for Gods in the Realms. So it's easier to suggest her alignment in the FRCS is accurate, but decrease what power she really holds over the world. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 19:21:39
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Just about every single deity in the Realms is the deity of something that just is, and that is inherently neutral. Storms don't have an alignment, the ocean doesn't have an alignment, the moon doesn't have an alignment... But the deities of these things do.
So are you saying that almost every single deity in the Realms should be Neutral?
Gods can deny their portfolios. Lathander is the god of dawn, so he can keep the sun rising on someone. And so on.
And this threat was actually issued in one of the novels -- Crucible, I believe. So we have it in canon that gods can do something like that. And since that's an option for all gods, good, evil, and otherwise, then we have to ask again, why does a good god let the sun rise on evil people? And so on.
People don't want to ask that question, for some reason. Instead, all the focus is on Mystra. Who, outside of a single novel, has never let her good alignment interfere in the administering of magic.
So again, alignment of deities, in regard to their portfolios, is irrelevant. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 19:22:38
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Mystra 2.0's alignment, to my way of thinking, always reflected Midnight and the essence of her person as she took the godhead of magic from fallen Mystra.
It never had anything to do with whether she could withdraw access to the Weave or not.
Note that act isn't easy. It's not as though it's as easy as flipping a light switch. I believe it's Magic of Faerûn that states the act of withdrawing Weave access is extremely taxing to the goddess.
While Midnight might have had a predilection for good, the weight of her divine office and her initial, hard lessons learned would have, I think, swung her back towards neutral. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 19:38:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Just about every single deity in the Realms is the deity of something that just is, and that is inherently neutral. Storms don't have an alignment, the ocean doesn't have an alignment, the moon doesn't have an alignment... But the deities of these things do.
So are you saying that almost every single deity in the Realms should be Neutral?
Gods can deny their portfolios. Lathander is the god of dawn, so he can keep the sun rising on someone. And so on.
And this threat was actually issued in one of the novels -- Crucible, I believe. So we have it in canon that gods can do something like that. And since that's an option for all gods, good, evil, and otherwise, then we have to ask again, why does a good god let the sun rise on evil people? And so on.
People don't want to ask that question, for some reason. Instead, all the focus is on Mystra. Who, outside of a single novel, has never let her good alignment interfere in the administering of magic.
So again, alignment of deities, in regard to their portfolios, is irrelevant.
I guess I'm saying that Gods shouldn't have that capability then, and let their alignment be as it's written. Personally I hate gods having that much contact and their hands always being involved "literally and directly" with that of mortals. Perhaps I should be of the opinion that Alignemnts aren't stricts things to ahere to in the first place. Maybe that's the best take on this whole thing, that regardless of deities Alignemtn, they're going to serve their portfolio first and foremost. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 19:55:35
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First off: Wooley, I like your ideas. Like you I was for a long time not too keen on Velsharoon or Azuth. They did (and still do, if I’m being honest) seem redundant.
It wasn’t until recently that I began to change this view, after I started using Velsharoon’s priests in my latest Realms game and came to see in my mind how Velsharoon “fit” in the Realms.
@Diffan:
FWIW I agree with you the deities shouldn’t, by and large, be so “hands on” in the Realms.
I recall being thrown by one of the first scenes in the first Time of Troubles book featuring Bane, where he uses a divine lightning strike to slay some mortal who’d been causing him trouble of late.
I thought to myself, “Whoa! They can do that?”
It was at that point that the deities in the Realms went (in my mind) from being far away and distant to all too close and personal, which the Avatar novels went on to reinforce in page after page.
I think Mystra’s direct influence never bothered me because she’s magic. She’s in control of the stuff that can reshape and drastically change the sandbox all the other deities get to play in. With that responsibility comes with restrictions (spreading power out amongst the Chosen) and freedoms, such as the freedom to intervene in a near-direct way.
These restrictions and freedoms are something that the other deities shouldn’t, in my opinion, have. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 21:24:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
First off: Wooley, I like your ideas. Like you I was for a long time not too keen on Velsharoon or Azuth. They did (and still do, if I’m being honest) seem redundant.
It wasn’t until recently that I began to change this view, after I started using Velsharoon’s priests in my latest Realms game and came to see in my mind how Velsharoon “fit” in the Realms.
I'd like Vellie a lot more if he was more a deity of undeath who happened to cover necromancy, as well. In other words, I don't like him as a deity of magic, but I think he'd be great as a deity of undeath. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 21:35:45
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That’s kind of the direction I went with in my Realms game.
I had priests of Velsharoon masquerading as priests of Oghma so they could gain access to a keep that sits on top of the prison of a Lich. Their goal was to free the Lich and spread a plague the lich had created that could turn all of the castle’s occupants into intelligent, undead servants.
Thus could the Lich gain great power, all for the glory of Velsharoon.
I like pro-active followers of this sort, because it naturally puts them at odds with other faiths. For my game this meant the Lorekeepers of Oghma who oversaw the collection of lore at Sagekeep, and Vigilants of Helm who were the keep’s guards and the Lich’s prison guards, though all but the highest ranking Helmite knew the secret of the Lich’s existence.
Velsharoonites(?) of this sort would of course naturally find themselves pitted against Doombringers of Kelemvor.
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Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2012 : 00:38:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
Velsharoonites(?) of this sort would of course naturally find themselves pitted against Doombringers of Kelemvor.
Actually, now that I think on this, I don't believe Powers & Pantheons ever referenced the proper name of the clerics of Velsharoon. That is, aside from noting that they were largely all either necrophants and/or necromancers.
Interesting. I might try to come up with a name myself. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2012 : 03:49:16
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Velsharoni! "Vel-.. sharoni... The necromantic freaks!" 
Okay, most non-US people prolly won't get that. |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2012 : 11:12:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
Well her alignemnt in the FRCS is Neutral good (or Lawfull neutral as alternative, but the main indication is neutral good) and this creates the questions Diffan mentioned, for example why would a good god support evil spellcasters.
So in my opinion the only way to have this work well is to make Mystra True Neutral.
Why does a good deity of the sun allow the sun to shine on evil people? Why does a good deity of luck let evil people have good luck? Why does a good goddess of nature allow plants to grow in evil nations?
If we're going to play the game of questioning alignment, we need to do it across the board, and not just for Mystra. That, or we need to admit that for purposes of administering the portfolio, deific alignment is irrelevant.
Yes for a lot of gods it makes no sense to give them an alignment apart from Neutral because they symbolise some basic stuff that affects all people. |
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The death and rebirth of Mystra (homebrew)
