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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Feb 2012 : 00:48:58
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I dunno...Kelemvor is so flavorless sometimes. I like Kelemvor's credo that the dead ought to stay dead, but Kelemvor, to me, just isn't as awesome as Myrkul.
Maybe the two ought to be made to merge or something. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2012 : 00:49:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
Warrior – Solonor
Wizard – Labelas
Priest – Corellon
Rogue – Erevan
I like the Elven listing, particularly. Especially the connection between Wizard - Labelas. He's always been my favourite Realms Elven deity. 
I wouldn't mind seeing this kind of system adapted for the 5e interpretation of the Faerűnian gods, personally. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2012 : 00:53:59
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| do not forget jergal |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2012 : 00:55:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
I dunno...Kelemvor is so flavorless sometimes. I like Kelemvor's credo that the dead ought to stay dead, but Kelemvor, to me, just isn't as awesome as Myrkul.
Maybe the two ought to be made to merge or something.
I've interestingly speculated before -- in previous discussions about an evil god of the dead -- that he/she/it should instead have two sides--or faces, the face of judging the good-aligned and the face for judging the evil souls entering final death.
Perhaps Kelemvor could represent the "good" face, and Myrkul, that of the evil. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2012 : 00:57:20
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
do not forget jergal
I certainly haven't forgotten him. As I've played it, Jergal has supposedly rumoured to have taken up the Time portfolio in my Realms.
It just makes better sense.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3763 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2012 : 00:59:25
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"Mystra, Goddess of Magic"
-Oh, come on. A resurgent Karsus would be much more interesting.
-That aside, a concept that I use(d) in my homebrew campaign world was a deity of "That which wasn't". Similar to an individual/deity who saw the future, but the difference is that this deity saw and compiled all of the futures that weren't. If, as I have read, the new edition of D&D, and the Forgotten Realms is going to be seemingly jumping around in terms of timelines, and what actually happened and what actually didn't happen, such a theoretical gatekeeper of reality and divergent realities would be a useful NPC type to organize the clutter from a metagame point of view. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2012 : 01:12:06
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
I dunno...Kelemvor is so flavorless sometimes. I like Kelemvor's credo that the dead ought to stay dead, but Kelemvor, to me, just isn't as awesome as Myrkul.
Maybe the two ought to be made to merge or something.
I've interestingly speculated before -- in previous discussions about an evil god of the dead -- that he/she/it should instead have two sides--or faces, the face of judging the good-aligned and the face for judging the evil souls entering final death.
Perhaps Kelemvor could represent the "good" face, and Myrkul, that of the evil.
This could work. Or probably just have a neutral deity. Besides, Death, in itself, is neither good nor evil. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2012 : 01:15:38
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
do not forget jergal
I certainly haven't forgotten him. As I've played it, Jergal has supposedly rumoured to have taken up the Time portfolio in my Realms.
It just makes better sense.
I'd rather have him as some sort of "Death Notes Keeper." One who guards all lore pertaining to death and undeath. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2012 : 01:17:50
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Why not establish a Deity of Time? Or have Lathander officially be that. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2012 : 01:20:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
"Mystra, Goddess of Magic"
-Oh, come on. A resurgent Karsus would be much more interesting.
A resurgent Karsus doesn't have massive piles of Realmslore and precedent to back him up. Mystra is practically a fixture of the setting. And to have Karsus as God of Magic complete defeats the point of the story of Netheril and his hubris. |
Edited by - Eladrinstar on 16 Feb 2012 01:21:13 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2012 : 01:30:23
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| Labelos had the longevity and walked the realms in a Kronos aspect.... god of time... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2012 : 01:33:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Eladrinstar
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
"Mystra, Goddess of Magic"
-Oh, come on. A resurgent Karsus would be much more interesting.
A resurgent Karsus doesn't have massive piles of Realmslore and precedent to back him up. Mystra is practically a fixture of the setting. And to have Karsus as God of Magic complete defeats the point of the story of Netheril and his hubris.
Here's how I'd handle Karsus's Return:
By sheer will forged iron-hard by centuries of struggling against "non-existence," he finally recovers and reconstructs all the fragments of his soul that scattered across all of Toril. He's now an ultra-powerful being. He can still cast the Avatar spell with the same firepower that siphoned Mystryl's essence. However, having learned from his mistake, he wouldn't do it again. He can target another deity, but chooses instead to focus his strength in reconstructing Halruaa 2.0. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3763 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2012 : 01:37:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Eladrinstar
[quote]Mystra is practically a fixture of the setting.
-And yet, she was removed.  |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 16 Feb 2012 01:38:04 |
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Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2012 : 01:50:58
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| Yeah, and look what happened to the setting. |
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2012 : 01:54:25
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I actually think that most deities don't need to be associated with a particular class. I think it leads new players down a more limited view of the deities. While Mask, Mielikki and Torm certainly lean heavily toward individual classes, clerics of all three should be considered. Mystra should be a consideration for all magic using classes. Tymora fits well for any adventure. Pretty much every adventuring themed realm's deity makes good clerics.
On a side note following the gnome comments: I thought gnomes were being replaced in 5ed by an 8ft tall fey race that has beards, are know to be pranksters and have a talent for illusion magic that are vastly different from gnomes. (I am kidding) |
Tarlyn Embersun |
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Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2012 : 02:00:51
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| It should also be stressed that Faerun is a polytheistic setting, and that player characters should worship more than one deity. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2012 : 02:18:37
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Been busy in RL (trying to close on a house), so I don't have the time to work-out my own list.
Erik's list if fine, except (as I have said) I would rather have more barabrian-like war-god. Torm, Tyr, & Helm are all too much alike. Maybe Tempus? Then you get Orcs covered as well (and its about time they went core-race; leave half-Orcs to middle Earth.
Heres the part where I catch flak from my fellow ''grognards'. Expand on the racial deities so that they double for parts of the human pantheon. I already suggested Garl for the gnomes, but he should also be a god of thieves in-general. Likewise, Corellon should be the god of magic (seriously - bringing Mystra back is not the best solution, IMHO). We already established Moradin is Gond, so Moradin becomes the god of artifice and crafts, etc.
Have the racials do double-duty, and it all works out. I like lots of gods in my settings, but I am also fine with having diffeent regional names (aspects) for a more limited pantheon. It might suck some flavor out of the setting (I doubt it - aspects can still be very different), but it helps with the mechanics. As wonderful as THREE 'god books' were in 2e, its still supposed to be a game and a setting that can attract new players, and telling someone they have three entire books to look through just to pick their god is a bit ridiculous.
Don't intimidate the 1st-timers - we can add more layers later.
EDIT: Re-reading what I just wrote, I realized that we have(had) Tyr, Torm & Tempus. Have Tempus absorb the other two (I think they are gone anyway?), and we can have my barbarian war-god... call him 'Mr. 'T'. 
Anyhow, name-wise, I always liked Helm best (its very streamlined and self-explanatory, like Bane). So keep Bane as the 'just & proper' (stick in his arse) paladin god, and turn Tempus into the guy who drinks too much at parties and picks fights (Thor).
And if we get a 5e F&P type book, lets have more about their religion, and what the churchood is like (including speciality priest powers). I want to know what the day-to-day responsibilities of EACH and every faith is in an urban setting (because their should be one). For instance, the church of Kelemvor should function as Funeral Homes. That sort of thing. Sune's Temples should be run like spa's.
Turn the religion into businesses - that's all they really are anyway. If they have no useful function, then why would they exist in the middle of a town/city, and why would anyone bother with them? Religion has to offer something, and on a polytheistic world 'salvation' just isn't going to cut it.
Other examples would be churches of Oghma functioning as schools, or temples of Ilmater being hospitals. Create a situation where the faiths have 'civic duties' - the old sources touched upon this a lot, but it should be played-up. There would have to a very good, realistic reason why nations (citystates, whatever) tolerate them. Thats the kind of god-book I want - not stats, treating them like 'encounters'. Also throw in a least one relic per deity (like the stuff from PotF).
If they do regional splats (like Volo's Guides), then they can add a 'deity of the month' - put a new one in each book, until the full pantheon is done (including any speciality priests, etc). And I am all for a 'short list' of ready-to-go deities for new players. As a LONG-time DM, anything that makes it easier for me to teach D&D to new players is a godsend.
And I am already planning my 5e D&D campaign.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Feb 2012 02:44:03 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2012 : 02:37:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
I dunno...Kelemvor is so flavorless sometimes. I like Kelemvor's credo that the dead ought to stay dead, but Kelemvor, to me, just isn't as awesome as Myrkul.
Maybe the two ought to be made to merge or something.
I've interestingly speculated before -- in previous discussions about an evil god of the dead -- that he/she/it should instead have two sides--or faces, the face of judging the good-aligned and the face for judging the evil souls entering final death.
Perhaps Kelemvor could represent the "good" face, and Myrkul, that of the evil.
This could work. Or probably just have a neutral deity. Besides, Death, in itself, is neither good nor evil.
Well, Jergal was "LN," so I suppose that's possible. Or just make it "True Neutral," in the old alignment lingo. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2012 : 02:41:10
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Yep, I mean "commonly worshipped" AMONG ADVENTURERS. Basically, what deities is a new player going to look at and say, "cool, I understand where that deity is coming from", without getting ties up in the details. FR has a huge capacity for awesome detail and nuance, but that can just be overwhelming to a first timer. If I'd wanted to play an elf cleric on my first FR game and the DM handed me a list of 15 fey deities and 20 "human but close" deities, I would never play a cleric again.
That level of customization belongs at a higher level, when you're already comfortable with the setting and want to cast your net a little wider.
Also, Karsus should be on the expanded deity list, if only as a quasi-power. That thing might well grant spells!
And well met, Lord Karsus--it's been a while since you graced these halls.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Don't intimidate the 1st-timers - we can add more layers later.
That's pretty much it!
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2012 : 02:42:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
do not forget jergal
I certainly haven't forgotten him. As I've played it, Jergal has supposedly rumoured to have taken up the Time portfolio in my Realms.
It just makes better sense.
I'd rather have him as some sort of "Death Notes Keeper." One who guards all lore pertaining to death and undeath.
He was largely already assigned to that role anyway, as he old portfolio in Powers & Pantheons indicates -- namely, "order in death," "proper burial," and "protector of the names of the dead." I'd assume all these duties require him keeping all the lore regarding mortal death and the dead, in order. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - The Sage on 16 Feb 2012 02:49:50 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2012 : 02:47:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Why not establish a Deity of Time? Or have Lathander officially be that.
Interestingly, I've also thought about the possibility that the Time portfolio may have ended up in the hands of Labelas.
To which, Eric Boyd once added:- "...depending on whether you see the human kingdom of Orva being a Netherese survivor state."
Orva's status as a human kingdom is probable [see the 'Orva' details in the second paragraph of Labelas's entry], according to Eric, who said:- "I add the [probable] qualifier because I had to insert a little bit of Realmslore in Demihuman Deities in the write-up of Labelas Enoreth. (Look at the alias list.) This was to patch up the lack of a time portfolio among any human Realms god and because the only gods left to detail at the time were nonhuman gods.
--Eric"
...
Re: my stance on Jegral possibly claiming the Time portfolio... as I've speculated in the past, perhaps the Time porfolio fell into the hands of Jergal in the pre-Spellplague Realms. After his demotion to "Exarch" status though, in the 4e Realms, it could be that the Time portfolio once again came up for grabs.
I know some folk suggest it could have been taken up by Amaunator, but I'm not so sure on that. Considering his now "ancient" mistake [see Faths & Avatars] that led him to assume he held the portfolio in the first place, I think it's the kind of "divine jest" he'd be unable to fully live down.
The other possibility, of course, is to still rely on much of what Eric and I discussed about the Time portfolio back in '06. That the Time portfolio remained free largely because, at the time [pun intended, I suppose], it wasn't feasible to be definitive about it, as some future project [nothing proposed at that point in '06] might have called for it. [Or, in other words, maybe Eric wanted to leave room for further development.] |
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 16 Feb 2012 02:50:52 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2012 : 03:28:36
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
[Or, in other words, maybe Eric wanted to leave room for further development.]
My thoughts exactly. And isn't 5E the "best time" to introduce the true God of Time?
Gods rise and fall. Jergal's demotion does not matter. He could grab the portfolio of Time if he's wise and resourceful enough. Not that I want him to. I'd rather have a completely new deity to possess that portfolio. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2012 : 03:39:24
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
do not forget jergal
I certainly haven't forgotten him. As I've played it, Jergal has supposedly rumoured to have taken up the Time portfolio in my Realms.
It just makes better sense.
I'd rather have him as some sort of "Death Notes Keeper." One who guards all lore pertaining to death and undeath.
He was largely already assigned to that role anyway, as he old portfolio in Powers & Pantheons indicates -- namely, "order in death," "proper burial," and "protector of the names of the dead." I'd assume all these duties require him keeping all the lore regarding mortal death and the dead, in order.
But he's not a greater deity. I want him to join the ranks of the GDs and be the dark counterpart of Oghma.
[Why is this BLUE and big? How to change this?] |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 16 Feb 2012 03:40:48 |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2012 : 04:32:05
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first text
quote:
open first quote
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open second quote
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open third quote
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open fourth quote
fourth quote closed
third quote closed
second quote closed
first quote closed[/quote]
big blue text apparently results from a mismatch between the quote and /quote tags. if you have more of one than the other... blue. four levels of quotes. maybe only Sage or Wooly or Alaundo can say why.
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Edited by - xaeyruudh on 16 Feb 2012 04:42:41 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2012 : 04:40:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Eladrinstar
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
"Mystra, Goddess of Magic"
-Oh, come on. A resurgent Karsus would be much more interesting.
A resurgent Karsus doesn't have massive piles of Realmslore and precedent to back him up. Mystra is practically a fixture of the setting. And to have Karsus as God of Magic complete defeats the point of the story of Netheril and his hubris.
Here's how I'd handle Karsus's Return:
By sheer will forged iron-hard by centuries of struggling against "non-existence," he finally recovers and reconstructs all the fragments of his soul that scattered across all of Toril. He's now an ultra-powerful being. He can still cast the Avatar spell with the same firepower that siphoned Mystryl's essence. However, having learned from his mistake, he wouldn't do it again. He can target another deity, but chooses instead to focus his strength in reconstructing Halruaa 2.0.
I like the idea, but I'd play it slightly different... Once he came back, he would still be, in part, fragmented. He'd be physically intact, and still quite powerful, but some of his memories would be gone -- not enough that he'd be that foolish again, but enough that he would know he wasn't what he once was.
And I'd make him a powerful archmage, but far from being at that top of the pile... That said, he'd sometimes (erratically!) be able to cast spells or strengthen his magic beyond his normal levels, and he'd also be prone to something similar to, but not as random as, wild surges.
I think I'd also play it that he was "reassembled" by a Halruaan archmage, and maybe either merged with him or took over the Halruaan's body when he died -- this would provide a motivation for being into the idea of a Halruaa 2.0, since Karsus 1.0 was a big rock when Halruaa 1.0 was founded. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 16 Feb 2012 04:44:24 |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
662 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2012 : 06:22:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Yep, I mean "commonly worshipped" AMONG ADVENTURERS.
In my group are not the most obvious ones
Eilistraee, Mystra, Tymora, Torm
Helm, Jergal, Uthgar, Red Knight, Oghma, Gond, Leira
Mask, Orcus |
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Lirdolin
Learned Scribe
Germany
198 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2012 : 06:38:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
(...) But I'd probably also find a way to kill off Kelemvor in the process; the god of death being a nice guy kind of creeps me out.
And I'd love to see Myrkul and Bhaal regain divinity... but I already have that done in my Realms, so for me, I'd be more interested in learning more background lore about the gods (particularly the Dark Three).
I wouldn't kill Kelemovore, but move him to true neutral. The impartial Judge of the Dead. Myrkul never fit that role and generally made a good Grim Reaper, but not a good Lord of the Departed.
But I would return Myrkul as well, but as God of Undeath (and maybe the act of Dieing). Bhall may return as God of Murder to again complet the 'Dark Three' (prefered with old symbols to underline the connection.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Oh, come on. A resurgent Karsus would be much more interesting.
No, I think I like him better as the dead God of Hubris
Bring back Mystra/Mystril/Midnight/Rune or Simbul |
Edited by - Lirdolin on 16 Feb 2012 06:43:25 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2012 : 07:07:13
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I once asked Ed Greenwood through his most esteemed courtier the LAdy Hooded one about the simbul and mystra.... the answer was of course NDA.....
I do see Simbul being the next goddess of magic if she ate enough magic items while she was insaner than usual.... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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idilippy
Senior Scribe
USA
417 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2012 : 07:07:34
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Well, I can only speak for groups I've DM'd over the years and characters I've made, but there are a few in my experience that can't be left out.
Out of around 50 characters past and present(most DM'd by me with a couple played by me sprinkled in) I've seen:
Tymora 6 times
Azuth, Mystra, and Selune 3 each
Helm, Kelemvor, Lathander, Red Knight, Shaundakul, Silvanus, Tempus, Torm, and Tyr 2 each
Also seen by me, though only once each, are Corellon, Erevan Ilesere, Shevarash, Solonor, Brandobaris, Chauntea, Hoar, Jergal, Lliira, Mielikki, Oghma, Shar, Sharess, Sune, Waukeen, Eilistraee, and Lloth.
I don't think even from those lists I could cut down to 15 detailed deities. For one, there are other common deities none of my players have happened to use , also I believe the major evil deities need write ups in a Player's Guide. Finally, the list of deities I've used is absent of dwarven deities because I don't have a player who really enjoys dwarves at the moment, but at least one needs to be included into a Player's Guide.
Anyways, I don't have a really good answer to a Player's Guide situation. I think it's worth it to give each deity at least a paragraph in the book, but as far as 15 or so deities important enough to get full write ups, I can only speak from my biased viewpoint. |
Edited by - idilippy on 16 Feb 2012 07:09:24 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2012 : 07:11:01
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I got it.... the ultimate NEW or is it OLD deity for the realms.......
NDA
unaligned god of forbidden knowledge
+for better or worst I can not tell thee what thou seeks+
hahahaha
back to original intent on thread and ends self imposed off topicness of said thread.... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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5e FR Deities: What's your list?
