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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Feb 2012 : 12:54:52
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Interesting topic. I just read it, and find the ideas amusing. :)
IMO, I agree with Wooly. There are too many variables to count.
A "would-be King of the World" will have to conquest all the kingdoms, and will have to survive the many hidden forces... Daurgothot... Balagos... the Necroqysar... Larloch.... and all the others. |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2012 : 12:55:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
For a program of limited conquest, where the new rulers are given time to consolidate their power, this is accurate.
When invading at the head of an army set to take over all Faerun, however, it is not. Remember, all the nations that you will one day invade are also your enemies. And whereas you are an outsider with no knowledge of the local politics, they'll have spies and agent-provocateurs already in place.
You'd have rebellions, because the nations you were invading next would make sure that you would. Also, when there is a religious component to warfare*, there will often be some ideological opposition to the new rule.
I think this is where most of our diffrent view points come from.
You are thinking about some army which proclaims that it wants to conquer the world and rushes from country to country.
I think about an army which is more subtle about its long term goal and only conquers the next nation when it has developed their power base in their current one.
PS: And I don't say its easy nor that it is possible. My only point is that a high level character can rule a lot of people by force when there are no other high level characters to opose him  |
Edited by - _Jarlaxle_ on 14 Feb 2012 12:57:39 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2012 : 13:09:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Ive just always thought they were suposed to keep the ballance, but i guess im messing with tha ballance and hence forth thats why they would intervene.
Could such an act even make them personally intervene though avatars or by them self???
Yes.
Avatars, certainly. If there was a real risk that you could succeed in killing everyone, thus ending the Faerunian pantheon, I would expect there to be no limits on the gods on the use of their powers at all. They could send in their celestial/infernal/whatever legions and command them personally, if they wished, and Ao would not object. |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2012 : 13:27:52
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In the event that a celestial army, led by some avatar was destroyed, would we ever see AO himself intervene?
And if the gods would get involved in this war, what about Hell and the Abyss... it would be pretty good time to strike!!! |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2012 : 13:51:37
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
I think this is where most of our diffrent view points come from.
You are thinking about some army which proclaims that it wants to conquer the world and rushes from country to country.
I think about an army which is more subtle about its long term goal and only conquers the next nation when it has developed their power base in their current one.
Then you aren't conquering Faerun in anything resembling a human, demi-human or even deific lifespan. You're just another regional power, trying to add to your power base. In competition with all the other regional powers.
And you'll never manage to conquer everything, because while your economy is locked down in war mode, the nations that are far enough from you will continue to trade freely and grow ever richer. By the time you come into conflict with them, you'll have armies that dwarf their, but they'll have economies which dwarf yours several times over.
While you might win the first few encounters, given enough time, the economic powerhouses will be able to field bigger armies, with more magic and better equipment. Sure, it will take them a lot of time to retool their peaceful trading infrastructure to warlike uses, but it's not as if they didn't have time to prepare, make allegiances and so forth as you gradually crept near them, taking over one nation at a time. They'll be ready.
Not to mention the incredibly optimistic idea that someone could plan to take over the world, set in motion preparations for that, train an army for it, equip that army and start the campaign of conquest... without anyone knowing. As soon as anyone other than you, personally, know, it will get out eventually.
Two people can keep a secret, if one of them is dead. An army of several million cannot hope to keep a secret, let alone keep one for years, generations, even millenia. With everyone who works on your plans necessarily being in the know or at least being able to piece out what you are doing, it will be known very shortly to others.
And that's in real world terms. In fantasy terms, your plan has the potential to threathen the existence of pretty much every powerful diviner in Faerun. Each of them has some chance of foreseeing it, at least to the point of starting his mundane researches to find out what this future threat will turn out to be. Even if most of them are inept or you manage to hide your plans very well, you'll be opposed by a lot of people very much higher level than 20th and they will have millenia of experience in foreseeing great dangers to Faerun and then working behind the scenes to forestall them.
Not to mention that depending on what god you serve**, an eventual plan of taking over the world is a threat to the existence of all the gods who'll be displaced by your theocratic empire. While a lot of gods are curiously bad at foreseeing the future, enough of them are great seers that the Faerunian pantheon will have an inkling that something is going on. And then they'll dispatch mortal agents, granting them all the support that they can. And divine scrying, once they know enough to use it, will penetrate any and all defences that 20th level characters (and even higher level ones) can enact.
**It has to be someone, if your governors are all high-level priests.
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
PS: And I don't say its easy nor that it is possible. My only point is that a high level character can rule a lot of people by force when there are no other high level characters to opose him
How is that relevant to Faerun? Not only are there other high-level characters around, but a war, even a war in which their side loses, is an excellent reason for low- and mid-level people to rise in level. So even if you defeated the armies in the field, you can't think that this leaves only 1st level commoners alive.
No, as noted earlier, most of the people of a defeated nation will still be alive and a program of genocide will take a long time, not to mention being very hard to do. While you might have destroyed a disproportionate amount of the moderate-to-high level defenders, remember that truly high level people have resources to survive a defeat of their army.
Remember also that most nations will have power groups that were formerly opposed (or at least not in favour of) the current elite, but like an invading force even less. Those will be unharmed and probably eager to make use of any opportunity you give them, such as not leaving a real garrison behind.
Not to mention that there is absolutely no way to anticipate or keep track of the truly powerful of Faerun, given that ancient ruins can hide antediluvian horrors, secret societies and conspiracies working in civilised countries employ a lot of powerful people whom no one would guess are anything but ordinary folk and a lot of ex-adventurers or even survivors of fallen civilisations are not known to the populace at large.
Add to that a small, but still non-zero, amount of the land that you propose to eventually conquer is subject to mysterious forces and powers that not even the wisest and most powerful of Faerun's elite understand after centuries of trying. How will your high-level newcomer fare, walking brashly in among all this and trying to rule by fear?
And I still think that you don't quite understand the distances involved. Even with wind walking, teleport, flight and suchlike, a single high level character cannot really get close enough to see clearly (say, within a mile) more than about 300 square miles. Teleports don't increase that, they just allow him to inspect areas that aren't adjacent to each other.
This is assuming that he spends a full 16 hours travelling at maximum speed*, glances once at each spot and is looking at most of this area from far enough away so that he can't tell the difference between different races, let alone different people. As for being able to tell whether or not people are obeying him, and identifying individuals well enough to be able to find them later and punish them, well, the the area over which he can manage that is maybe 10%. As in, maybe a single city and the nearest farmland.
But it's not that easy, though. Cities and a lot of other terrain aren't conveniently flat, so that you can see in all directions. And people can be indoors at the precise second that you fly by. Every time you have to slow down to see something or zig-zag around buildings, trees or something else, your area of control drops. God forbid that you ever have to stop and talk to someone, because that will take a lot of your time.
In practice, you personally will not be able to verify more than a tiny fraction of what happens in just one city, even if you are using your magic for pretty much nothing else.
Your one superhero, regardless of his ability to make short work of most of his 'subjects', just isn't going to be able to rule them very well. Because he'll have no idea what any of them are doing, where they are and who they are. He doesn't have time to find out, either, unless he has a full staff of (reasonably) loyal bureaucrats and officials, not to mention people to patrol everywhere and report back. In other words, a proper garrison.
*Unless the D&D rules are very incomplete, there will be some mechanism that makes this a bad idea, even if he is using flight magic. A GM that fills in lacunae of the rules will certainly inflict some penalties for being moving at maximum exertion all day long. There's probably also a question of how long he can maintain his movement spells, with anyone but a character optimised for long-lasting movement spells (and memorising little else) being limited to much, much fewer hours. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2012 : 13:59:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
In the event that a celestial army, led by some avatar was destroyed, would we ever see AO himself intervene?
At most, he'd strip the any god that was on your side of his divine rank inside Realmspace. On the other hand, by thus making all divine casters into inferior warriors without any supernatural abilities, that will probably be more than enough.
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
And if the gods would get involved in this war, what about Hell and the Abyss... it would be pretty good time to strike!!!
No doubt.
On the other hand, during any time period I am interested in (i.e. pre-Spellplague), the fiends are busy with their Blood War. Toril would, at most, be an unimportant sideshow where a fiendish noble or two took his personal following in order to make a quick profit*. No way would the full might of the fiends be wasted on something that has no real purpose for them.
*Quick, of course, in fiendish terms. It could be a millenia long plan in human terms. And what could he profit? Well, either he's after the pleasure of ruling humans as slaves, being able to kill and torture them at will, in which case said fiend would be a deserter from the Blood War (and the more clever evil gods of the Realms could even get his fiendish superiors to help bring him to heel) or he's trying to take over Toril as a recruiting station for an army to turn against the other side in the Blood War. In the second case, the fiends would be trying to take over as many surviving humans and create societies where they are able to train slave armies worshipping fiend cults, eventually sending these (probably fiend-blooded by now) legions onto infernal battlefields. |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2012 : 14:35:44
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You are interpreting far to much into my statements (and you write far too much for me to keep interest into reading it all  )
So just a few more notes:
-The question of this thread was what if you have an army of..., not is it possible to raise it (in secret)
-I still stand with my opinion that most people would just tag along with the new rulership, especially if they get benefits they didn't had before.
-The new ruler doesn't have to know what everyone is doing all the times. He just has to make sure that everyone follows his orders if he gives them which should be easy enough if everyone has enough fear.
Another point I just saw was your point about my sentence "make him a lich". I wasn't supposing to let the character doing the lich ritual after conquering something. I was saying "use liches instead of clerics or waht ever".
Another possibility would be using necromancers and zombiefying the whole population. Problem solved 
In my personal opinion the only one so far with a good chance at world (even multiverse) domination would be Szass Tam because of his ritual if he succseds sometime. |
Edited by - _Jarlaxle_ on 14 Feb 2012 14:36:39 |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2012 : 15:56:57
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| Too many factors to decide definitively. Fictionally, you can bend many of the variables. If anyone comes to Gen Con and wants to talk about it in person, let me know. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36912 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2012 : 16:12:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
(snip)I find the notion to conquer fearun silly, (snip)
So if you think it's a silly idea, then why bring it up in the first place, and why continue pushing the discussion?
I still want this question answered.
Still waiting... |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2012 : 16:37:00
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I don't see your point but you allready got an answer to that...
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
I LOVE IT!!! Damn that is some very insightful posts indeed. Thanks!
Its so nice to see people actually taking time to answer with some well thought... answers!
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2012 : 17:56:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
(snip)I find the notion to conquer fearun silly, (snip)
So if you think it's a silly idea, then why bring it up in the first place, and why continue pushing the discussion?
I still want this question answered.
Still waiting...
OK... I try to answer it. Im still pushing the question because people here write such good and well thought criticism. What I mean is, that I can use this in our own game. I think its fascinating to read what people write. This is also part because the Paladin in our game has conquered Waterdeep, and now wants to run a more administrative game with taxes, export, import cost of war and invasions and defense of his lands. So I thought it was fun to hear what people thought of the idea since I know this player’s greatest wish would be to be King of Fearun. It also helps a lot with what he should focus on, and since none of us is officers in any military ( me being only a sergeant) we have a lot on "unknowns"... Some of which have been put into the light throughout this thread. The statement "silly" was not because i thought the info on the subject was silly, but because that I felt myself that it would be damn hard, if not impossible. Well I maintain a conviction that in D&D nothing is impossible, but since my friend wants as much realism in his "war" campaign, i felt this was the right forum? I hope this aswers your question!
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Edited by - Nicolai Withander on 14 Feb 2012 17:58:21 |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2012 : 17:58:52
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Why is it blue???  |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2012 : 17:59:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
(snip)I find the notion to conquer fearun silly, (snip)
So if you think it's a silly idea, then why bring it up in the first place, and why continue pushing the discussion?
I still want this question answered.
Still waiting...
OK... I try to answer it. Im still pushing the question because people here write such good and well thought criticism. What I mean is, that I can use this in our own game. I think its fascinating to read what people write. This is also part because the Paladin in our game has conquered Waterdeep, and now wants to run a more administrative game with taxes, export, import cost of war and invasions and defense of his lands. So I thought it was fun to hear what people thought of the idea since I know this player’s greatest wish would be to be King of Fearun. It also helps a lot with what he should focus on, and since none of us is officers in any military ( me being only a sergeant) we have a lot on "unknowns"... Some of which have been put into the light throughout this thread. The statement "silly" was not because i thought the info on the subject was silly, but because that I felt myself that it would be damn hard, if not impossible. Well I maintain a conviction that in D&D nothing is impossible, but since my friend wants as much realism in his "war" campaign, i felt this was the right forum? I hope this aswers your question!
I never really figured Paladins as the "Conquering" type. Seems to go against their morals, code of honor, and such. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2012 : 20:51:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
OK... I try to answer it. Im still pushing the question because people here write such good and well thought criticism. What I mean is, that I can use this in our own game. I think its fascinating to read what people write.
You had every right to do so, and, in fact, the usage of fantasy settings for 'pointless' thought experiments is not in any way an 'invalid' use of them. I am glad that you have had some use or interest out of the discussion and I am profoundly sorry that a moderator found it necessary to use his inviolate position to badger you about it. That was vulgar and hurtful.
I sincerely hope that the undercurrent of elitist disapproval I detected in his repeated rude demands for 'an answer' from you, as if you had to defend your post to him, is
accidental on his behalf. It's bad enough that the moderators are over-critical of the community at large, too quick to use their power and unforgivably rude, without some of them being actively hostile to anyone they perceive as not enjoying the Realms the 'right' way.
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
This is also part because the Paladin in our game has conquered Waterdeep, and now wants to run a more administrative game with taxes, export, import cost of war and invasions and defense of his lands. So I thought it was fun to hear what people thought of the idea since I know this player’s greatest wish would be to be King of Fearun. It also helps a lot with what he should focus on, and since none of us is officers in any military ( me being only a sergeant) we have a lot on "unknowns"...
Specifics are good.
What god does this paladin worship? Who are his companions and the most important people of his court?* What is his relationship with his closest neighbours and what, if anything, do more distant nations think of him?
While the course of action to be recommended depends a lot on the specifics involved, I can state that 'conquest' is not something that he ought to be focusing on.
For him to be 'King of Faerun', let him instead work toward making it better to live in his lands than anywhere else. Let him ally with everyone who shares his religious ideals and try to reach the best possibly modus vivendi with those who do not. Let him defend his subjects from the attacks of those who do not wish to live in peace. And let him build up a navy powerful enough for ships from his new kingdom to trade with not only his closer neighbours, but the world.
Just by trying to defend his realm, trade routes and allies; he'll find himself in no end of wars. And if he wins those wars, people who used to live in the wilderness next to the orcs and goblins or whatever he was fighting should find it more beneficial to live inside the kingdom than outside it.
Much like Rome, it should build roads, harbours, aquaducts, sewers and other infrastructure for the lands they more or less accidentally find themselves conquering. The kingdom should punish violent crime severely and treat raiding humanoids as either bandits or an outside enemy, depending on the size of the group, and execute or kill them in battle. This way, he makes the land-based trading routes safer and more popular, further increasing the prosperity of his citizens and the reach of his armies.
Friendly nations who envy the prosperity of the kingdom should be offered the chance to join it as a full and equal province, with rights equal to all other citizenf of the realm. Even if they do not, immigrants from those lands should be welcomed. If some nation refuses their citizens permission to leave and join you, protest in the strongest terms and declare that any man or woman who so desires shall be treated as a citizen and you will defend them as a knight is bound to defend those weaker than him. That way, if you are drawn into wars with nations who don't want to see you getting any more powerful, it will be for a Lawful and Good reason that a knight can present to his god without qualms.
You'll also want to do your best to create a cult of personality around your leader, as well as as many other leading citizens as you can. Anyone who genuinely is heroic or can convincingly behave heroically in public ought to be lionised, his deeds made into songs and bards paid to sing them throughout your own land and as many others as you can. If the songs are good enough, after a while, they'll sing whether you pay them or not.
Of course, your paladin leader must always appear the height of humility himself, attributing all glory to his god. If you an arrange for him to be ascetic without being fanatical, that is good. It would also be nice if he had some high-profile ministers from areas that have newly joined the kingdom, to show how opportunities are not monopolised by the original population and the realm is truly the homeland for all those who wish to live under the protective umbrella of [insert god's name, making sure that the common people often say the name of the paladin instead].
Celebrate any and all successes with great fanfare, spreading the credit freely to courageous soldiers, wise advisors and industrious merchants. The people of your realm will think you're humble and generous and the people living further away will attribute all glory to the King anyway, because they don't remember any of the other names.**
And yes, this all takes an eternity and can't really be hurried. In fact, 'King of Faerun' will probably be downgraded to 'Emperor of the Free Peoples of Sword, Axe and Bow, King of the North and Heartlands, Lord of [Dessarin] Vale and [Chiontar] River, Master of Mountains, Moors and Forests, Bey of Runlatha, Jarl of Illusk, High Lord of Luruar, Shield of the Nelanther, Defender of the Sea of Swords, Meisarch of Amn and Overlord of the Dragon Coast'. And that's still ample to do for a lifetime or ten.
Of course, scouring the eternal plague of the 'evil' humanoids from the North and the Heartlands will be considerably easier if the character can reconcile not treating them as people with his religion. If only the warriors of raiding humanoid bands are killed, the breeding population will replenish their numbers fairly rapidly, with the cycle of constant raiding punctuated by occasional terrible hordes being repeated endlessly. Viewing the orcs (and their ilk) as a curse on the land, not people in their own right, would allow a purposeful genocide of them, which would be the immense benefit of the dwarves, elves and humans of the North and Heartlands.
There is precedent of 'Good-aligned' people in the Realms pursuing such a course of action. Whether or not this is consistent with the ideals of your knight and his god, I do not know. All I know is that the problem of the orcs has so far not been amenable to any morally palatable solutions.
*Both abilities (only in the most general terms, such as race, class level, possibly adding any unique abilities or powerful magical items), personalities and their connections to the world at large, i.e. origin, contacts in other lands, cultural familiarities, etc.
**And while each individual hero is mentioned once, twice or maybe a couple of times, the King's name is on all proclaimations, his profile on all coins and his colours with every patrol of knights. |
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Imp
Learned Scribe
231 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2012 : 21:07:09
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quote:
I sincerely hope that the undercurrent of elitist disapproval I detected in his repeated rude demands for 'an answer' from you, as if you had to defend your post to him, is
accidental on his behalf. It's bad enough that the moderators are over-critical of the community at large, too quick to use their power and unforgivably rude, without some of them being actively hostile to anyone they perceive as not enjoying the Realms the 'right' way.
I find it rude that Wooly's question was ignored. And also I find it rude that you bash Wooly for things that he didn't do. Overall your post is accusatory and rude. |
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Edited by - Imp on 14 Feb 2012 21:08:20 |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2012 : 21:51:49
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Can we please stop the bagering of each other! I have no beef with Woolly nor the wish to offend him with my silence. I simple thought that his question was a retorical one!
Its a long story about the paladin, but he is LG and he is all for creating a good safe Waterdeep! With trading and such. If he was to be King of a large area it would be through politics and diplomacy! He is curretly building hospitals and a great cathedral to Lathander, so he is trying to "improve the lives of the inhabitants! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36912 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2012 : 22:01:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
I am glad that you have had some use or interest out of the discussion and I am profoundly sorry that a moderator found it necessary to use his inviolate position to badger you about it. That was vulgar and hurtful.
I sincerely hope that the undercurrent of elitist disapproval I detected in his repeated rude demands for 'an answer' from you, as if you had to defend your post to him, is
accidental on his behalf. It's bad enough that the moderators are over-critical of the community at large, too quick to use their power and unforgivably rude, without some of them being actively hostile to anyone they perceive as not enjoying the Realms the 'right' way.
I am not actively hostile to anyone, and you are very much reading into my question. When someone says that their own topic is silly and then pushes the discussion, asking why it's being pushed is a valid question.
You seem to be the only one who finds the moderators overly critical, too quick to use their power, and rude (many others have said we're too lenient). I have defended the rights of people to discuss things I personally dislike, I have avoided using my mod abilities as much as possible, and I try not to be rude unless someone is blatantly being hostile to me or to others. And even when people are being blatantly rude to me, I usually let it slide -- like the recent poll by a since banned troll asking if I was a "dbag."
You have a problem with me, take it up with me by PM. Or contact Big Al. Either way, your "the mods are such tyrants!" schtick has gotten old.
If we were so rude and abusive of our powers as you claim, your posts would have long since been deleted and your account locked. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 14 Feb 2012 22:02:27 |
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Imp
Learned Scribe
231 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2012 : 23:15:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
I am glad that you have had some use or interest out of the discussion and I am profoundly sorry that a moderator found it necessary to use his inviolate position to badger you about it. That was vulgar and hurtful.
I sincerely hope that the undercurrent of elitist disapproval I detected in his repeated rude demands for 'an answer' from you, as if you had to defend your post to him, is
accidental on his behalf. It's bad enough that the moderators are over-critical of the community at large, too quick to use their power and unforgivably rude, without some of them being actively hostile to anyone they perceive as not enjoying the Realms the 'right' way.
I am not actively hostile to anyone, and you are very much reading into my question. When someone says that their own topic is silly and then pushes the discussion, asking why it's being pushed is a valid question.
You seem to be the only one who finds the moderators overly critical, too quick to use their power, and rude (many others have said we're too lenient). I have defended the rights of people to discuss things I personally dislike, I have avoided using my mod abilities as much as possible, and I try not to be rude unless someone is blatantly being hostile to me or to others. And even when people are being blatantly rude to me, I usually let it slide -- like the recent poll by a since banned troll asking if I was a "dbag."
You have a problem with me, take it up with me by PM. Or contact Big Al. Either way, your "the mods are such tyrants!" schtick has gotten old.
If we were so rude and abusive of our powers as you claim, your posts would have long since been deleted and your account locked.
Preach it brother! Mods here are super cool, although a bit too lenient. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2012 : 01:08:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Why is it blue???
It may be due to you not closing a quote box properly. Sometimes, when I've left a quote box open myself, the entire post text format is enlarged and coloured in light blue.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 15 Feb 2012 01:17:30 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2012 : 01:16:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
It's bad enough that the moderators are over-critical of the community at large, too quick to use their power and unforgivably rude, without some of them being actively hostile to anyone they perceive as not enjoying the Realms the 'right' way.
I'm not entirely sure where your antagonistic attitude toward agreed-to Candlekeep Forum etiquette [the Code of Conduct you agreed to abide by when you first registered here] has come from all of a sudden, Icelander.
I take my position here very seriously, and I don't appreciate being labelled as overly-critical, unforgivably rude, and actively hostile... at least not without legitimate reason. So, I would ask that you please provide evidence of these claims you make against me that clearly demonstrate exactly what you've said here about both myself and my conduction of moderation at Candlekeep. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2012 : 01:25:07
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Why is it blue???
It may be due to you not closing a quote box properly. Sometimes, when I've left a quote box open myself, the entire post text format in enlarged and coloured in light blue.
I've been wondering why that happens to you, Sage. Stop deleting the quote-close tags. And if I'm quoting a long post in pieces to reply to specific points, I put in my break-quote tags before I start typing my own responses. I find it works really well for avoiding those missing tags. Anyway, back to topic... and my answer to the OP's question depends entirely on the period.
Pre-3E: Probably Cormyr, although I'm sure that there are southern or eastern nations that can contest that, such as Thay. Outside of Faerun in this time period, almost definitely Shou Lung, but I know even less about them than I do about the lands of southern or far eastern Faerun.
Between the Return of the Archwizards and the Spellplague: Probably Shade/Netheril.
After the Spellplague: I've only read the Campaign Guide and Player's Guide, and shortly after they came out, so I'm not really the best authority on this era. I'd say both Tymanther and Imaskar are serious competition for Netheril/Shade, and outside of Faerun, Returned Abeir is definitely a significant force.
I should add, in all time periods: Evermeet. They take their seclusion seriously, and defend it heavily, but I suspect that their military was stronger before the Spellplague than during or even after, simply because of what happened with the island. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2012 : 04:14:39
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Imaskar? I don't think so... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2012 : 08:09:48
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I'm not entirely sure where your antagonistic attitude toward agreed-to Candlekeep Forum etiquette [the Code of Conduct you agreed to abide by when you first registered here] has come from all of a sudden, Icelander.
I am not hostile to the Code of Conduct, not at all. Nor have I tried to violate it and, in fact, I don't belive I have.
What I do not like is that the Code of Conduct does not appear to reflect the actual rules on the forums. Those appear to exist as custom among the moderators and vary according to their moods. Reading carefully over the Code of Conduct, for example, I found little support for the censorious response given every time someone mentions something that might trigger real world prejudices of others. By a close reading, only profane language or personal attacks caused by this would be forbidden, not the discussion of Realmslore that might have real world connections.
The only applicable thing I found is this:
5. Certain subjects are known to cause confusion and can result in a very opinionated thread. These subjects will be monitored very closely by the moderators to ensure conduct is kept civil and in order. Before participating in such threads, please read the specific explanations given here in the FORGOTTEN REALMS SUBJECT EXPLANATIONS. This list will be updated over time, as and when new situations which need to be addressed and clarified arise.
Checking the subject explanations, however, I discover that the only subject specifically cautioned against is the Cosmology of the third edition as compared to the 2e. If the intention was to include other subjects, that has not been followed up on.
I don't like having to try to guess the rules before I try to follow them.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I take my position here very seriously, and I don't appreciate being labelled as overly-critical, unforgivably rude, and actively hostile... at least not without legitimate reason. So, I would ask that you please provide evidence of these claims you make against me that clearly demonstrate exactly what you've said here about both myself and my conduction of moderation at Candlekeep.
A critical reading of what I actually wrote will reveal that 'unforgivably rude' is Wooly repeating the same question three times in a badgering tone, giving the impression that posters owe moderators explanations of why they wish to discuss certain Realmslore.* Common grammar reveals that there is no necessity for all the moderators to be guilty of a given solecism for it to be an attribute of moderators on this site.
'Actively hostile' is not something of which I accused anyone. I said that it was an impression that could be gotten from Wooly's tone, but that I hoped it was merely an accident of communication, not real. If you would like, however, I can find some examples of moderators responding to certain 'what if' questions about Realslore in a less than welcoming manner. Consider just how large the fraction of Candlekeep traffic that is generated by the moderators themselves and a small circle of their long-time online acquintances.
Doesn't it seem at least possible that new posters do not always feel welcome on Candlekeep?
As it happens, I do believe that moderators I have seen here are too critical and too quick to lock threads. It is another thing which, for me, at least, contributes to an uncomfortable feeling at Candlekeep. I am interested in Realmslore and I don't know any other place where I can find as many Masters of it, but if I had any alternative, I doubt I would feel comfortable posting here. I always feel like I'm doing it on sufference, not being one of the moderators or their friends and not knowing what the actual rules are, since the Code of Conduct is little help.
If you want, I can track down several that have been locked not for being in violation of the Code of Conduct, but rather for being about subjects that someone has expressed concern that might in the future result in someone violating it.** I can find more where the moderators have found it necessary to warn posters (and thus implicitly stifled discourse) before anyone had even come close to violating anything or even shown an inclination to do so.
*Besides, if a question is not answered the first time, simply continuing to repeat it in a hectoring manner is rude. This is not controversial, is it? Whether engaged in a conversation with other people or simply walking around, there exists no duty to respond to questions from passerby. At the very least, rephrasing the question or even explaining why one wants to know would be better than peremptorily reminding people that "I still want this question answered", as if the wishes of the inquirer were divine law and the people ignoring it were in violation of some greater order.
**But which are not mentioned on the Forgotten Realms Subject Explanations. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36912 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2012 : 11:13:29
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So it's rude to want to know why someone says their own topic is silly and then wants to keep discussing it?
We lock threads less often than once or twice a month. And usually that's after repeated warnings, and the threads usually have someone deliberately antagonizing others. How locking threads so infrequently, and with more than sufficient warning, can qualify as "too critical" and "too quick" is utterly beyond me. What are we supposed to do, send out monogrammed letters beforehand, or should we just let people blatantly violate rules and harass others until they get bored?
As for not having support of the Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct on some of our actions... Let's see, the Code says things like
quote:
5. Always be courteous and polite to other members,
and quote:
11. Moderators are permitted to edit or delete any posts, should they deem it necesssary.
and quote:
5. Certain subjects are known to cause confusion and can result in a very opinionated thread. These subjects will be monitored very closely by the moderators to ensure conduct is kept civil and in order.
and quote:
The forum is for the discussion of the Forgotten Realms. Please keep all topics relevant to this campaign setting
Those are our justifications. We act most often when people are repeatedly being rude to others. And we act when certain topics that are known to cause problems come up. And some of those topics cause problems because -- as has already been demonstrated in the past, in these halls -- some people cannot keep real-world thoughts and emotions out of the discussion.
Or are we supposed to also let the same arguments happen over and over again?
You also imply that we play favorites. That is so utterly far from the truth that it's insulting. I've come down on people I agree with, if their posts were violating the CoC or if it was something like pointlessly bashing 4E in a thread where people were trying to discuss it. I've gone out of my way to try to make sure people can discuss any aspect of Realmslore. There are people I frequently disagree with that don't know, because I simply don't say anything. I've found more than one discussion to be entirely against my own thoughts or opinions, and I've not even gone as far as to say I disagree.
And even when I don't like someone, they get the same consideration and treatment as any one else. No one gets any special treatment, here.
If we were too critical or too quick to use our power, we'd not even be having this discussion -- your posts would have simply been deleted, and we might have even locked your account.
The moderators here have two missions: making sure we stick to discussing Realmslore, and making sure things remain civil. If you have a problem with that, then you need to be taking it up with Big Al. Or maybe check out other forums where the mods actually are like what you accuse us of being like. I've been to some of those forums, and in fact was banned from the WotC forums for rules violations I didn't commit.
Lastly, you say you haven't violated the CoC... How about this part? quote:
If you have any disagreements with a moderator’s action, please do not post this on the forum, instead, send a Private Message to the moderator and discuss privately. If you wish matters to be investigated, then email/PM the Head Moderator.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 15 Feb 2012 12:00:16 |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2012 : 12:32:55
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Can we PLEASE keep this siscusion elswhere!
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Imp
Learned Scribe
231 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2012 : 13:18:28
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quote:
Or maybe check out other forums where the mods actually are like what you accuse us of being like. I've been to some of those forums, and in fact was banned from the WotC forums for rules violations I didn't commit.
Go to Giant in the Playground. In comparison to them, Wooly and Sage are SAINTS with unimaginably long patience.
Ice, I respect your knowledge about Realms and help that you give to scribes who seek that knowledge, but now you're just being silly with your accusations.  |
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Edited by - Imp on 15 Feb 2012 13:21:43 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
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Imp
Learned Scribe
231 Posts |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2012 : 15:21:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Imp
What's a siscusion?
If memory serves I believe it's a biblical term for a eunuch whose desire knows no bounds, despite the attempt to quell it.
Or it could just be a typo. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
Edited by - Artemas Entreri on 15 Feb 2012 15:23:03 |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2012 : 22:09:17
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It was a typo!
I just wanna thank everybody for a great contribution to this thread so far. If anyone has anything interesting to say about the theme of conquest pleasy do not hesitate to post it!!! I my self have gotten alot out of it. Many questions have been answered but many new arise. Many ideas have come to mind aswell and a lot part to the efforts of the scribes here. So thanks! |
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Armed Forces
