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Kentinal
Great Reader
4696 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Feb 2012 : 00:36:50
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| Nation building takes time. Those absorbed by treaty or blood in a few generations might join your army. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1288 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2012 : 02:37:43
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
Amen! Thank you for your service Mournblade!
Appreciated! |
A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2482 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2012 : 09:25:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
You will need many more troops, just remember there are millions of Drow.
[..] Such a force, however might make good progress to a world government if proper alliances are made.
Most of them live deep in the world of diminishing returns - the more Drow are put together, the more they are distracted by the internal squabbles. Those few who don't act counterproductively simply couldn't care less about such things - Moondancers aren't supposed to, Sshamath wizards have reasons to feel confident in their own place under Faerun and no reasons at all to risk it.
An united force? Seriously? |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2012 : 10:20:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
You should be able to enlist or conscript troops of conquered nations. Go for Genghis Khan style of conquest. Offer cities the option to surrender and pay tribute. Those that refuse get razed to the ground, able bodied men conscripted as cannon fodder to lead the next attack, children and women enslaved and the rest of the populace put to the sword, with the exception of a terrified few you let escape to spread tales of the horror (psychological warfare). Of course with magic, I'd probably animate the dead from the battlefield(great revenance spell anyone?) and have them lead the attack on the next settlement followed by the living cannon fodder then the true soldiers.
Its a good idea, but also a pretty dark one. I find the notion to conquer fearun silly, but none the less possible with the right amount of men, and ofc the right combination. I do not know the number of inhabitants of fearun, but Im guessing abount 50 million. And thats a pretty small number. IRL it does not take many soldiers to invade a country. (I know this i fearun and not the real world, but even a fantasy world is based somewhat on real life) So I dont recall USA deploying more than was it 30k or 50k when overthrowing Saddam???
Anyways... I feel that an army around 150-200k with the weakest soldier being level 4 has a pretty good chance of taken over most of fearun! Ofc if wizards of some sort is pressent! |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2012 : 14:43:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
You should be able to enlist or conscript troops of conquered nations. Go for Genghis Khan style of conquest. Offer cities the option to surrender and pay tribute. Those that refuse get razed to the ground, able bodied men conscripted as cannon fodder to lead the next attack, children and women enslaved and the rest of the populace put to the sword, with the exception of a terrified few you let escape to spread tales of the horror (psychological warfare). Of course with magic, I'd probably animate the dead from the battlefield(great revenance spell anyone?) and have them lead the attack on the next settlement followed by the living cannon fodder then the true soldiers.
Its a good idea, but also a pretty dark one. I find the notion to conquer fearun silly, but none the less possible with the right amount of men, and ofc the right combination. I do not know the number of inhabitants of fearun, but Im guessing abount 50 million. And thats a pretty small number. IRL it does not take many soldiers to invade a country. (I know this i fearun and not the real world, but even a fantasy world is based somewhat on real life) So I dont recall USA deploying more than was it 30k or 50k when overthrowing Saddam???
Anyways... I feel that an army around 150-200k with the weakest soldier being level 4 has a pretty good chance of taken over most of fearun! Ofc if wizards of some sort is pressent!
Apologies to the Mods for this real-world comment but the U.S. was not sending it's troops to Iraq to conquer and hold the country. What you are talking about doing would require leaving a garrison behind at each city/country that was conquered. (as mentioned in previous posts) If an invading army did not do this then it would run the extreme risk of leaving angry enemies at it's back..which it turn would cause all kinds of problems for sneak attacks, managing their supply lines, etc. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
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Edited by - Artemas Entreri on 12 Feb 2012 14:43:34 |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2012 : 14:56:43
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True... It would take a lot... about a million to garrison the whole of fearun IMO!!! Unless ofc one where to kill all in its path!!!  |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2012 : 15:23:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
(snip)I find the notion to conquer fearun silly, (snip)
So if you think it's a silly idea, then why bring it up in the first place, and why continue pushing the discussion? |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2012 : 15:27:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
I do not know the number of inhabitants of fearun, but Im guessing abount 50 million. And thats a pretty small number.
You are guessing profoundly wrong. The civilised races amount to more than 70 million, even if you just count the Sword Coast, North, Heartlands and the lands around the Inner Sea. The Shining South will add considerably to that number and the Hordelands, part of the continent, even more. Unless you are allied with Shou and Tu Lung, you'll also have to consider them in your equation, leaving a strong army on the border with them in case they decide to intervene.
And then there is the fact that the 'uncivilised' races number probably more than an order of magnitude more than the inhabitants of the cities and farmland of the surface. Orcs, goblins and hobgoblins, not to mention duergar, drow, illithids, beholders, kuo-toa, aboleth and their slaves.
And the inhabitants of the oceans must be considered, at least those capable of affecting events on the surface.
Your potential enemies will number around a billion. But their numbers are not the main problem. The main problem is that you'll have at least 14 million square miles to garrison and possibly more, depending on where you want your borders to be. Also, due to the tunnels under Faerun, you can pretty much triple (or more) that number, as you'll be garrisonning in 3D.
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
IRL it does not take many soldiers to invade a country. (I know this i fearun and not the real world, but even a fantasy world is based somewhat on real life) So I dont recall USA deploying more than was it 30k or 50k when overthrowing Saddam???
The US and its allied massed around 400,000 troops and supported them with pretty much the rest of their armed forces, as well as personnel from private companies, both security and otherwise, numbering in the hundreds of thousands. And Iraq is less than 1% of the square milage of the area that you propose to conquer. |
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Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2012 : 15:48:06
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| I think this type of topic definitely makes for interesting discussion, but i don't think that Faerun could ever be conquered in the traditional sense. There are simply far too many variables to consider with opposition from the surface world, Underdark, and the surrounding oceans....not to mention MAGIC. Magic alone could ruin an attempt at conquest. Look how small Thay is; but who in their right mind would try to conquer or annex it. Not gonna happen |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2012 : 16:51:32
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Well In our old game, we actually be sieged Thay... or tryed, we got to the main gate of the Citadel! 
But I also think it is interesting. The Roman empire almost had all of Europa which is sort of equal to Fearun, except the magic ofc.
By the way... Does anyone have a near canon number on sentient being in Fearun??? I personally think one billion is too much! But I dont know! |
Edited by - Nicolai Withander on 12 Feb 2012 16:53:35 |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2012 : 16:54:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Well In our old game, we actually be sieged Thay... or tryed, we got to the main gate of the Citadel!
But I also think it is interesting. The Roman empire almost had all of Europa which is sort of equal to Fearun, except the magic ofc.
By the way... Does anyone have a near canon number on sentient being in Fearun???
The Roman Empire did cover a vast amount of land at it's pinnacle of power...but that is nowhere near the size of Faerun. If Rome had also conquered all of Asia and what is now Russia, then it would be alot closer as far as square miles is concerned. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2012 : 17:24:16
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Well In our old game, we actually be sieged Thay... or tryed, we got to the main gate of the Citadel!
But I also think it is interesting. The Roman empire almost had all of Europa which is sort of equal to Fearun, except the magic ofc.
By the way... Does anyone have a near canon number on sentient being in Fearun???
The Roman Empire did cover a vast amount of land at it's pinnacle of power...but that is nowhere near the size of Faerun. If Rome had also conquered all of Asia and what is now Russia, then it would be alot closer as far as square miles is concerned.
And the Roman Empire also didn't have to deal with dragons, magic, races that lived underground, uncivilized races like orcs and goblins that don't care who they're attacking, etc... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4696 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2012 : 18:20:17
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Well in general controlling cities and towns, trade routes are the minimum required. Some of that Points of Light concept. Control the money and trade one achieves a large control of the population.
No matter how large an army there is no way there would be total control. Even if 1 in 10 of all territory were in army or government service (which could include slaves) there would always be resistance. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2012 : 18:28:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
But I also think it is interesting. The Roman empire almost had all of Europa which is sort of equal to Fearun, except the magic ofc.
They didn't conquer it in one military campaign and then garrison it against a hostile population. They gradually annexed it, mostly by treaty, economic influence and a series of hundreds of military campaigns over a period of 400-500 years. And while they hard core of their professional military did not go over 200,000 men at any one time, these were augmented by local military, auxiliaries and allied troops at all time, making for a total of men under arms that was at least three times that. When you factor in that each man served no more than 30 years, you have at least ten million soldiers in the service of Rome who took part in the campaigns that made it the ruler of an area about 1/6th of what you propose to conquer.
And you'll have to account for millions of potential enemies underground and in the oceans, so you are really dealing with a much larger area, as noted earlier. Say that you really have about twenty times as much to worry about as the Romans.
Either you'll have to take a really long time for your campaign, as in millenia, or you'll have to have an army much, much larger than Rome's ever was.
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
By the way... Does anyone have a near canon number on sentient being in Fearun??? I personally think one billion is too much! But I dont know!
The 70 million figure for the civilised races is a near canon number. It's adding together the populations of the various lands (making allowances for edition changes and trying to keep things logically consistent, as much as possible). As noted, it is just the 'main' campaign areas, excluding many places that are canonically part of Faerun.
It is also canon that the 'uncivilised' races outnumber the civilised ones by a huge margin. Precisely how much is almost impossible to say.
Note that the canonical population numbers for the Underdark make it certain that the geography and ecology of Toril is nothing like Earth. For one thing, the biomass of things that live somehow without photosynthesis is probably more than the biomass of the 'traditional' ecology on the surface. There is a massive world there of chemotrophs, fungi and plant species never seen on Earth, and they are sustaining huge populations of animals, monsters and sentient species.
The Underdark seems to be more thickly inhabited than the surface. Which is scary, mysterious and fantastic. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Edited by - Icelander on 12 Feb 2012 18:29:33 |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2012 : 19:26:43
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Hmm...
Could someone try to list an army that in their opinion could conquer Fearun? |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2012 : 19:40:11
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Didn't Marckus Aurelius or Charlemagne or one of those guys conquer the entire known world during their time? Maybe it was just a huge swath of it. At any rate, I seem to remember it taking a lifetime. You have to remember in real life it doesn't take as many soldiers and I would assume this is due our technological superiority when it comes to wartime, there just isn't another country that can match the tech. You cold probably do a similar thing with a dragon riding airforce or Halruan skyships mounted with Thayan bombards.
I remember as a kid playing a similar mini campaign like this where we conquered the realms or vast portions of it. Was actually kind of fun. I don't remember how we did the rolls, but we set it up as a RISK type of game if i recall. |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2012 : 19:52:31
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Well the Battle rules we use is based on CRvsCR +/- diffirent factors.
So one level 4 can take:
1 level 4
1,5 level 3
2 level 2
3 level 1
for a level 12 it would be:
2 level 10
4 level 8
8 level 6
16 level 4
32 level 2
And then we just do math.. +/- factors like magic, weather and so forth!
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2012 : 19:53:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Didnt someone post a link to some old Ed thread!
Found it my self: http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/8184/eurocomp.jpg
Assuming that scale is accurate, there's still millions more square miles of Faerûn than there is of Europe.
Yep, Kara-Tur and the Hordelands aren't even covered in this map. Cool looking though  |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2012 : 20:17:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
Didn't Marckus Aurelius or Charlemagne or one of those guys conquer the entire known world during their time? Maybe it was just a huge swath of it. At any rate, I seem to remember it taking a lifetime. You have to remember in real life it doesn't take as many soldiers and I would assume this is due our technological superiority when it comes to wartime, there just isn't another country that can match the tech.
To give the simplest possible answer, any time Alexander the Great, a number of Roman generals or Ghenghis Khan are quoted as 'conquering the known world', the area being discussed is never more than one sixth of the area covered by Faerun.
In addition, several factors influence the ease of empire-building.
Transportion and communication technology makes it easier, allowing centralisation as well as concentrating your forces anywhere they are needed. Toril has good communications, in the form of magic, allowing huge empires if you can manage to conquer them, but transportation is relatively poor*. The kind of magic that several hundred high level battlefield mages can command is impressive, but it cannot handle the logistics of moving an army. They are still stuck with ox carts and the Shank pony.
This is an important limitation. Few of the ancient conquerors ever really went that far from the Meditarrean that allowed ships to supply their armies. Those that did had unique organisations dedicated to supporting their armies and also did impressive diplomatic work in gaining local allies that did the same.
In any event, any attemt to conquer Faerun had better pay equal (or more) attention to a decent navy and naval bases as the ground force. Trying to fight a naval power with even the best army in history will quickly get old, as they'll be able to strike at your supply lines and the farming hinterlands that feed your army without you being able to do much about it.
Another important factor in the ease of empire building is the amount of firepower that a single soldier can wield and how easily such firepower is available to rebels.
During periods when only powerful economic polities can afford to train men as professional soldiers and equip them with real armour, rebels, no matter their courage, are not really going to be able to defeat regular troops in the field. This made the period from the Bronze Age until the dawn of the pre-Modern era a particularly good area for empire building.
When soldering went from an occupation requiring a lifetime of training to something that could be picked up in a few weeks (learning to load and shoot in lines) and weapons that could penetrate good armour became available, it was suddenly possible for poor rebels to match imperial armies, maybe not man for man, but at least they had a chance.
In history, counter-insurgency against peasants with melee weapons is comparatively easy, because armoured and disciplined troops will walk all over people without military training or equipment. Clashes of arms at the Bronze Age and until the modern period depended on the soldiers being very, very professional and good with their weapons. While this will always be important, of course, the time and expense needed to make a musketeer into an aqequate soldier is a lot less than needed to make a Roman legionary or an armoured man-at-arms.
Give both sides access to methods that work well enough without a lifetime of training and you have a situation where it is much, much harder to defeat huge number of men with a smaller, but more professional army.
This might seem to favour empire building in Faerun, but it really doesn't. Monsters, magic and supernatural abilities that allow unarmed peasants to defeat soldiers in full battle array are not only available to the peasant, they are incredibly common. Things that threathen patrols of soldiers can lurk literally anywhere and during a large-scale war, some of them will certainly be drawn to the fighting.
Counter-insurgency that has to account for monsters with innate abilities to fry soldiers inside their armour, distintigrate them or do any number of other nasty things to them is so hard as to be best described as 'are you crazy?'.
*Sailing ships are fairly advanced, but most sea routes are extremely long, with the geography being inconvenient for sea-borne logistics support for far too much of Faerun. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2012 : 21:21:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Hmm...
Could someone try to list an army that in their opinion could conquer Fearun?
No. In my opinion, it cannot be done with any kind of realistically sized army. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2012 : 21:38:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Hmm...
Could someone try to list an army that in their opinion could conquer Fearun?
No. In my opinion, it cannot be done with any kind of realistically sized army.
Shade can probably do it, with multiple alliances, and in the span of millenia. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4696 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2012 : 21:59:29
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Any one could do it with enough time. The Army builds as successful expansion occurs. Failure of course means death or at minimum more time line to achieve goal.
On paper you might be able to calculate the forces needed to kill beholders, dragons and other minor problems. On paper you however can not have any existing domain with the ability to field such a large force set on conquest. (Waterdeep, does not appear on paper enough food production/purchase food for residents) |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2012 : 22:30:48
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Food should not be a problem since the spell: Create Food and Water Can be cast multiple times...
But I simple cannot believe that with the right sort of classes in the army that, Fearun could not be taken! |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4696 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2012 : 23:14:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Food should not be a problem since the spell: Create Food and Water Can be cast multiple times...
But I simple cannot believe that with the right sort of classes in the army that, Fearun could not be taken!
Well war gaming clearly makes it possible, if you play the only force to control a world. The one basic problem is other forces would not want to be controlled. Further ever create food and water will not fully support any large army. They we need to raid or require supply lines.
Raiding increases chances of insurrection behind the lines.
Supply lines would of course be raided as chances of opportunities by those opposed to the new rulers.
All in all, to build the army in the first place you need mundane supplies of food, metal, mounts and the list goes on.
As Wooly offered a few assassins could take key people out of your army.
At minimum IMO to establish one Realm government of the Realms, you would need at least 10 million in high level troops, with lower level support. Even this number might be low as I suspect few beholders or dragons would bow head to human. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2012 : 23:41:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Food should not be a problem since the spell: Create Food and Water Can be cast multiple times...
Very, very wrong.
Relying on that spell to feed your army requires you to have at least one 5th level Cleric per 15 soldiers (one per ca 2 for cavalry). In order to cast it multiple times, he'd have to be even higher level, and thus even rarer.
First of all, odds are that suitable 5th level Clerics are less common than 1/15 of your people capable of military service.* Even if there are enough clerics, odds are that no more than a tiny fraction of them worship gods that are sympathetic to your cause.
Second, even if you are not using non-combatants to port food and water, you will still need mules and oxen to transport siege equipment, spares for weapons and armour, gear for repairing it, munitions, etc. Knights cannot ride their horses between battles, because warhorses are bred for speed and shock, not travelling, which means that you need riding horses and remounts for them, as well. And people to take care of those horses.
You're lucky if you get away with a small baggage chain of maybe a couple of thousand mules for this and if you are relying on a lot of missile weapons (which use ammo, remember), expect to need a lot more. This, in turn, means drovers. Which means that your 110,000 man army would actually number rather more than that, just to be able to fight more than one battle. So, you might have some 10-20 thousand equines and the same number of non-combatants.
Your proposed 300 20th level Clerics could feed less than 10% of your proposed 100,000 soldiers. Add fodder and water for warhorses, as well as the required non-combatants and transport animals for siege equipment and all the myriad things needed to keep an army in fighting trim (drovers, smiths, tailors, sappers, cobblers, etc.) and you aren't feeding much at all.
Frankly, the 300 20th level clerics would barely do to feed the high-level paladins and their mounts, leaving the whole rest of the army to be fed in the normal way, with thousands of ox-carts travelling at 10 miles per day and being confined to roads that makes your movement incredibly easy to predict, slow and even block.
If you really wanted to feed all these people with magic, you'd need a clerical corps of 10,000+, all of them above the 5th level.
If you mean to increase the size of your army, which you really ought to be doing, you'll need one cleric per ten fighting soldiers, pretty much.
Is that impossible?
Maybe not. Maybe it's a theocratic society, on bent on conquest in a holy war. On the other hand, by D&D standards, in order to have one priest of 5th level, you would also have two of 4th level, four of 3rd, eight of 2nd and sixteen of 1st, approximately. Essentially, for every cleric powerful enough to be selected for your Cook Brigage, you'd have thirty acolytes somewhere at home.
Even assuming that a as much as 20% of your population have 'adventuring' classes and that in your hypothetical theocratic society, fully 10% of these are priests of the appropriate god, with fully half of these priests suitable for military service**, we're left with a situation where you'd have to have a population base of of 3,000 theocratic people for every available cleric.***
Yep. In order to field enough clerics to feed your proposed army, already noted as much too small to conquer Faerun, you'd need a dedicated society of religious fanatics numbering 36 million people.
Can this be done? Sure. Would it be 'no problem'? Not really. It would be the defining characteristic of your army, that it is composed mostly of clerics and therefore probably has a religious purpose.
*Remember that these clerics would have to march everywhere that your soldiers march. This means that they need to be fit people under middle age.
**That is, they are healty, sane, young enough and of a temperament which allows them to accept disipline and a life of hard work. That's a very optimistc estimate, but what the hell, we're conquering the world here.
***If you limit military service to just one gender, you'll have to have double the estimated population, of course. But you'd be stupid to do that.
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
But I simple cannot believe that with the right sort of classes in the army that, Fearun could not be taken!
It really isn't about classes, as much as it is about the unforgiving calculus of time, space and biological necessities.
In order to garrison 14,000,000 square miles against enemies that can come from anywhere and might be beholders, dragons, armies of drow, etc., you're going to need at least one outpost per 100 square miles, and a couple of hundred armies to respond to threats.
Say around a hundred men per garrison and that you have maybe ten large armies of 100,000 men or so, maybe a hundred smaller of 10,000 men and maybe a thousand local forts of varying sizes and compositions.
That means that you have around 20 million soldiers. If you want to feed them all with clerical magic, you'd better have a population of 600 million theocratic fanatics supporting your efforts. If you have a polytheistic society of less devotion and where service as a Cook Brigage cleric is voluntary, expect to need a few billion total population.
It might be smarter to reserve magical means of food generation for your 'flying columns' designed to out-maneuver opposition and respond swifly to dangerous uprisings, feeding most of your gigantic army of occupation through more mundane means*.
Always hoping, of course, that mundane means of food production survive the war, which isn't a given. Really, you must expect failed crops**, trampled fields, burnt forests, sunk fishing fleets and the ruination of intricate systems of irrigation in any war, let alone one that engulfs a whole continent and involves pretty much all the magic that can be broght to bear by all Faerun's powerful. Fervently hope that once you have broken the armies of your foes***, you aren't left as the ruler of an empty wasteland where the true powers are Lord Famine and Lady Pestilence.
*Meaning seizing the food of locals so that they starve. Yes, this is calculated to make them resent you more and for rebellions to be more frequent, but really, war is hell.
**They failed because the farmers were serving in the emergency militias raised to resist your armies, of course.
***Leaving you with the unenviable task of simply subduing rebellions, revolutions, monster attacks, Underdark raids, coastal raids and responding to potential interference by neighbours in Kara-Tur and beyond. |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2012 : 00:33:15
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Wery well put Icelander...
I totally see your point about the food and the clerical problem. But some of the problems, if not by spell, then by magic items must be able to be solved that way. Ever full mugs and the likes. I’m just saying, that if your had billions of gold and a hoard of wizard (which we have in this case) w could make a lot of items that could solve at least some of the food problem. So too could levitating wagons be used. I’m not saying that this will solve every bit of problem of supplies, but a help it is.
To respond to the whole garrison part... I have got to ask, that if I have conquered the whole of Fearun or a very big part of it... I assume I would have killed most of the "soldiers" or battle ready part of a land or kingdom... who am I garrisoning for??? Dragons? Giants? Well if I have taken their land... there is a good chance that I would have killed then in the proses. I acknowledge the need for garrisoning, but not for all these armies on hold. This is ofc if I have taken Fearun by force. For if I have taken Fearun by force there will be no living human, elf, dwarf, orc, giant, drow or dragon, cause they would have been killed in the proses of conquest. I would think? Or am I forgetting something or misunderstanding some of your points?
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2012 : 00:47:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
True... It would take a lot... about a million to garrison the whole of fearun IMO!!! Unless ofc one where to kill all in its path!!!
A million, what, exactly, to garrison Faerûn?
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2012 : 00:51:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
By the way... Does anyone have a near canon number on sentient being in Fearun??? I personally think one billion is too much! But I dont know!
The 3e FRCS rounded out the population to be sixty eight million (68,000,000) inhabitants. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Armed Forces
