| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Feb 2012 : 18:30:56
|
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
And Markus- Drizzt was NEVER the "only" good drow- Pretty sure Quilue and friends were aroung LOONG before him!! (Check the time-line- her founding of the Promenade was long before Drizzt was even a "twinkle" in Zaknafein's eye!)
Nope.
Check the publishing dates on everything applicable - RW, Drizzt came FIRST (and started this stupid 'angsty Drow' craze).
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
It all depends on who the lich is, and from where. If he's of Szass Tam's level, then it's a definite yes. Szass Tam effortlessly controlled a blood fiend (Tsagoth) who's ten times stronger than Jason.
Thats why novels should be ignored - they contradict sources. If the Shades and Red Wizards were anywhere near as strong and competent as the books portray them, they would have taken over long ago. You can't 'uberize' all the bad guys, and at the same time kill off (nearly) all the good guys. You wind up with a very broken setting that way.
Ed balanced his Realms perfectly - almost everyone who came after was clueless. They took the balance he built for 25+ years and threw it right out the window. WotC may consider the novels canon, but as far as I am concerned they are apocryphal.
Edited, because I don't feel like getting banned from a site I love.
I had to erase the rest - I went off on an epic-level rant, and I am trying to be all 'butterflies and rainbows' these days. Still, incompetence at one's job drives me into a rage. My apologies. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 05 Feb 2012 22:32:42 |
 |
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2012 : 19:54:45
|
Novels should be ignored when in fact they're canon? Wow. You want to publish fanfic instead?
Anyway, we're not discussing the Shadovar here. Were you supposed to post that in CP's thread? |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2012 : 22:29:07
|
You know - I began to rant again.
Novels shouldn't be canon. Lets just agree to disagree.
EDIT: I edited my above post so you can see precisely what I was addressing. Sorry for the confusion.
EDIT2: Both Eberron and Greyhawk used the model of 'Novels aren't canon', and it worked fine. I am not familiar enough with DL or DS to know how it worked for them, but I know the novels were one of the reasons I avoided DL (I felt they shoe-horned folks into an exact series of events, but that was probably because I had a DM who ran it precisely that way). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 05 Feb 2012 22:35:30 |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2012 : 23:04:34
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
If the Shades and Red Wizards were anywhere near as strong and competent as the books portray them, they would have taken over long ago.
They are powerful and they are competent. It just happens that they are not alone in that department. Thus "world domination" is quite far from their reach. And thus, the Balance, which any shared-world setting must always have, is kept. I wonder where these ideas that they're weak and incompetent came from . You haven't (or would not?) read the novels where the said characters took prominent roles. You may have your own version of a canon. But as far as the true canon goes, the Shadovar and the Red Wizards are way far from incompetent and weak. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2012 : 20:15:33
|
Right, which is why by 1479 DR - after nearly all the 'good guys' were killed-off (and the few who were left were left mere husks of their former selves) - the Shadovar, Red Wizards, Malaugrym, Abolethic Soveriegnty, Bright Pink Dragons in tutu's, etc, ad nauseum...
Killed everyone and took their stuff.
Oh... wait... thats not what happened...
DESPITE the fact they have ZERO opposition, they still haven't taken over a damn thing.
So which is it? Are they incompetent, or are the 4e designers? You can't have it both ways. Being the very, very nice guy that I am, I am defending the designers here by saying every 'bad guy' in the Realms is a complete putz.
 |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 07 Feb 2012 20:16:13 |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 00:17:10
|
Zero opposition? Where did you get that? Besides, they themselves oppose each other.
Despite their individual might, they are careful in moving their chess pieces, for every wrong move could spell catastrophe. Telamont forced Rivalen to stop the Shadowstorm and said something along this line, "before Faerun's powerful take notice." A clear indication that he chooses manipulation over direct confrontation. Which has proven effective, as they had been able to reclaim Anauroch and Sakkors and conquered Sembia.
Some Shadovar agents allied with outsiders to foil Szass Tam's plan of erecting and activating a Dread Ring in Neverwinter. That's a Thay vs Shade minor fight via proxies.
There no good guys in the Realms. Everyone's a shade of gray. So your claim that nearly all the good guys were killed off is...well, invalid. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 00:28:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
There no good guys in the Realms. Everyone's a shade of gray. So your claim that nearly all the good guys were killed off is...well, invalid.
Everyone is a shade of gray, but some of that gray is pretty light. There are definitely good guys in the Realms, just as there are bad guys. Plus the idea that there is no good or evil is ridiculous when the setting exists in a universe where alignments are tangible forces in the cosmos. |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 00:47:03
|
At MT:
The Realms' "less evil" guys (whom you call the "good" ones) were not killed off. Reduced in number, probably. But definitely not wiped out. Most 4E novels reflect that. The villains hardly won. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 08 Feb 2012 00:48:49 |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2012 : 22:05:39
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
[quote]Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
And Markus- Drizzt was NEVER the "only" good drow- Pretty sure Quilue and friends were aroung LOONG before him!! (Check the time-line- her founding of the Promenade was long before Drizzt was even a "twinkle" in Zaknafein's eye!)
Nope. Check the publishing dates on everything applicable - RW, Drizzt came FIRST (and started this stupid 'angsty Drow' craze).[quote]
MT, I usually agree with you on most topics, and generally love your ideas. However, I feel that even the RW material will back me up here. Quilue was/is the "Seventh sister", which since they are Ed's own ladies makes her older whether in Fr lore or in the sources (eilistraee and her followers were around before salvatore's novels, IIRC- there was even a small group of them in the Vault of the Drow module set, if I remember right!) and Ed has played in the FR sandbox longer than anyone- ie, he built it and hauled in the sand. I'd say that makes her older any way you slice it. But each to his own, I suppose.
And for the record, I've NEVER seen the "angsty" thing with ol' Drizzy. There are those who say his journal entries sound that way, but they are in fact, simply introspective and observationist. They are NOT the whiny, suicidal, "woe is me, no one loves me" diary entries of some emo teen-ager. He may occasionally be broody and quiet, but given his family baggage (mom wnats to kill him, sis wants to boink him, dad is distant and can't show affection) I'd say that's normal. Especially considering the hell that is Menzo... To me, angsty is more like Angel from the Buffy series (since you brought it up, and this thread is about vamps) while Drizzt is more like Spike- for those who don't see the parallel, Angel was dark, broody, and very conflicted, since he was cursed with a soul, and was basically a reluctant hero who was really only good because he was in love with Buffy and wanted to be good so she would love and respect him. He did not ASK for his soul, it was shoved at him for killing a Gypsy witch's kin. And when he lost it again, he became as evil as any other vamp.
Spike, on the other hand, went LOOKING for his soul back, because in SPITE of being evil, he fell for Buffy (realistically, the LAST person he would want to be around, since she is the Slayer) and CHOSE to become good and get his soul back so she could love him. (He literally went through Hell to do it!) And he became "good" (even before he got his soul back) to prove himself to her, so HE changed because he WANTED to! As opposed to simply because having a soul MADE him "good"....
Drizzt is like that- he never sat around moping about the places he was not accepted, he just moved on and kept looking until he found a place he was welcomed, and actively did good simply because it was what he believed in. He did not make the excuse of "well, all my people are evil, so I have to be, too" or play the "I'm trying to escape my own inner evil" card. It's just who he is/was. I don't see the angst there.
And back to Underworld- I saw, I liked. Definitely a sequel being set up here, and I'd guess that the reason that there were no hybrids before is because Michael was the first descendant to actually love a vamp and not get killed for it- the last inter-species couple in that world/mythos ended up dead before anything ever came of it. (IIRC, the vamp's daughter- forgot her name- was torched by sunlight while she was even prego, so we will never know if her offspring would have been a hybrid- but I suspect it would have.)
|
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2012 : 23:25:28
|
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
And Markus- Drizzt was NEVER the "only" good drow- Pretty sure Quilue and friends were aroung LOONG before him!! (Check the time-line- her founding of the Promenade was long before Drizzt was even a "twinkle" in Zaknafein's eye!)
Nope. Check the publishing dates on everything applicable - RW, Drizzt came FIRST (and started this stupid 'angsty Drow' craze).
MT, I usually agree with you on most topics, and generally love your ideas. However, I feel that even the RW material will back me up here. Quilue was/is the "Seventh sister", which since they are Ed's own ladies makes her older whether in Fr lore or in the sources (eilistraee and her followers were around before salvatore's novels, IIRC- there was even a small group of them in the Vault of the Drow module set, if I remember right!) and Ed has played in the FR sandbox longer than anyone- ie, he built it and hauled in the sand. I'd say that makes her older any way you slice it. But each to his own, I suppose.
Gotta side with Markus. In published Realmslore, Drizzt was the first good-aligned drow. And Ed didn't create Qilue -- he just knew there was a Dark Sister. Steven Schend ran with that bit and created Qilue. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2012 : 00:04:12
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
And Markus- Drizzt was NEVER the "only" good drow- Pretty sure Quilue and friends were aroung LOONG before him!! (Check the time-line- her founding of the Promenade was long before Drizzt was even a "twinkle" in Zaknafein's eye!)
Nope. Check the publishing dates on everything applicable - RW, Drizzt came FIRST (and started this stupid 'angsty Drow' craze).
MT, I usually agree with you on most topics, and generally love your ideas. However, I feel that even the RW material will back me up here. Quilue was/is the "Seventh sister", which since they are Ed's own ladies makes her older whether in Fr lore or in the sources (eilistraee and her followers were around before salvatore's novels, IIRC- there was even a small group of them in the Vault of the Drow module set, if I remember right!) and Ed has played in the FR sandbox longer than anyone- ie, he built it and hauled in the sand. I'd say that makes her older any way you slice it. But each to his own, I suppose.
Gotta side with Markus. In published Realmslore, Drizzt was the first good-aligned drow. And Ed didn't create Qilue -- he just knew there was a Dark Sister. Steven Schend ran with that bit and created Qilue.
Both Ed and Steven have discussed this bit about Qilue's creation in the Realmslore, and they're recommended reading for any scribe with an interest in the origins of the Dark Sister. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2012 : 01:54:47
|
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
And back to Underworld- I saw, I liked. Definitely a sequel being set up here, and I'd guess that the reason that there were no hybrids before is because Michael was the first descendant to actually love a vamp and not get killed for it- the last inter-species couple in that world/mythos ended up dead before anything ever came of it.
Michael wasn't the first. Lucian was. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Underworld: Awakening
