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Lady Shadowflame
Learned Scribe
115 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Jan 2012 : 23:37:33
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Are they featured in anything other than Frostfell? I'd be really interested in knowing if they appear in anything else at all.
Though I am also trying to track down everything featuring standard lythari, to find the maximum lore and info on an often-forgotten group.
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Save a lizard... Ride a drow.
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2012 : 23:51:53
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lythari are briefly mentioned in Races of Faerun (under lycanthropes, rather than elves), but they're merely described as "elven werewolves" "whose origins go back to the first elven explorations of Faerun, and the good lythari have lived among the moon elves and wood elves for thousands of years." [p 142]
personally, i think that miserably fails to do them justice.  |
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Lady Shadowflame
Learned Scribe
115 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2012 : 23:59:33
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I'd agree, it does; we got all these fascinating hints in... Silver Shadows, I think it was, that suggested so much more for them.
I think they're one of the most forgotten elven groups. (Possibly excluding avariels, who at least have the excuse of being mostly a small insular group.)
EDIT: Hey cool, bumped to to Learned Scribe by this post. |
Save a lizard... Ride a drow.
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Edited by - Lady Shadowflame on 29 Jan 2012 00:00:07 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2012 : 00:00:51
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| They're discussed in Lands of Intrigue (settlements in the Forest of Tethir), Demihuman Deities (passim), and Demihumans of the Realms. |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2012 : 00:09:42
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| well... there was a lythari character in one of Elaine Cunniham's novels.... or was it two of them..... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2012 : 00:31:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Shadowflame
Hey cool, bumped to to Learned Scribe by this post.
congrats! do you feel more Learned now?  |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2012 : 00:55:03
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It's important to note that the lythari in Frostfell [or, Vil Adranath, which is just an "eastern" term used to describe the same type of lycanthropic elves], are somewhat different, culturally, from the western lythari detailed in the various sources already mentioned.
Some scribes, like Wooly, have interestingly established something of an off-shoot dynamic for the Vil Adranath. I don't see it as such myself, though, mainly because the novel really didn't take the time to properly establish such genetic distinction between the western lythari and the Vil Adranath. Instead, from what we learned about the eastern lythari, I tend to believe that the differences between them are both largely cultural and brought about by their specifically varied environmental regions -- which have, likely and individually, shaped both of their unique outlooks on what it means to be lythari. And which, as I see it, has led to the highly noted variations of ritualistic tendencies both groups of lythari display when utilising their strange powers. [It's something I fully intend to explore in more detail once I get all my notes together and start reworking my current theory on the subject.] |
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Edited by - The Sage on 29 Jan 2012 01:00:48 |
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Lady Shadowflame
Learned Scribe
115 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2012 : 01:29:52
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| Oh, I do make the distinction between their different cultures; it's why I wondered if the Vil Adanrath had ever appeared in anything else. One would think there should be some entry in some sourcebook somewhere... |
Save a lizard... Ride a drow.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2012 : 02:11:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Shadowflame
Oh, I do make the distinction between their different cultures; it's why I wondered if the Vil Adanrath had ever appeared in anything else. One would think there should be some entry in some sourcebook somewhere...
I've haven't read them yet, so I can't confirm directly, but I've been told the Vil Adranath feature, briefly, in the "Chosen of Nendawen" books. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2012 : 07:03:10
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Wasn't there a Lythari in Elaine's Starlight & Shadows series? Rashemen is right next door to the Hordelands.
I theorized (with Lord Karsus) that lythari have a 'world walk' ability that allows them to 'home in' on Feygates (places where the planer bounderies are weakest, and folk with fey heritage can 'cross over') and use them to cover vast distances by entering the Feywild (where the terrain is a compressed version of the Prime Material) and exiting it repeatedly. Using this 'short cut', they can cover hundreds of miles in just a matter of hours.
Many of the beings in the Moonshaes retain this ability, including the trolkyn (dwarf-like trolls of the Feywild). A troll in the novels uses this ability to move a group of mortals quickly across the country (they had to be blindfolded, because mortals can deal with faerie's beauty).
Anyhow, the basic premise is that Lythari remain closer to their fey heritage then most other elves, and thats why they can still shape-shift and detect the feygates.
Further conjecture had it where their language was based on the original fey tongue, spoken by the original elves that came over. The eastern branches of elves were more isolated from others of their kind, and so picked-up quite a bits of language and culture from eastern humans. Tuigani is actually a debased form of Roushoum (Imaskari) with eastern (Shou) influences. The Shou tongue (Kao te Shou) itself is a mixture of aboriginal Haltai (FR Oriental) and interloping Shou (which is reminiscent of Draconic).
Ergo, the language of the Eastern lythari probably have some things in common with both branches of the Imaskari - the southern Muhjari peopels and the interloping Shou. However, there should be enough root words in-common for elves of other parts of the realms to communicate with them (speaking the 'old tongue').
Also, whereas western elves have been heavily influenced by the Eladrin and their Seldarine-worshiping culture, the eastern elves have stayed true to their fey heritage, and traditions of venerating ancestors (archfey). The western elves' language was also influenced by other races, but mostly by the later influence of the Eladrin who were sticklers for 'racial purity' (an thus didn't allow their language to degrade as much).
Most of this comes from stuff worked out in the Elven Netbook product, but its all based on the canon history and linguistics of the Realms (so its homebrew, but very logical homebrew).
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Jan 2012 07:11:51 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2012 : 12:16:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I theorized (with Lord Karsus) that lythari have a 'world walk' ability that allows them to 'home in' on Feygates (places where the planer bounderies are weakest, and folk with fey heritage can 'cross over') and use them to cover vast distances by entering the Feywild (where the terrain is a compressed version of the Prime Material) and exiting it repeatedly. Using this 'short cut', they can cover hundreds of miles in just a matter of hours.
Interesting. However, as evidenced in Forstfell, the eastern lythari cover great distances by mundane means only (transformation). Your suggestion (world-walk) would have saved Amira and gang the time and energy in rescuing her "son." |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2012 : 17:25:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I theorized (with Lord Karsus) that lythari have a 'world walk' ability that allows them to 'home in' on Feygates (places where the planer bounderies are weakest, and folk with fey heritage can 'cross over') and use them to cover vast distances by entering the Feywild (where the terrain is a compressed version of the Prime Material) and exiting it repeatedly. Using this 'short cut', they can cover hundreds of miles in just a matter of hours.
Interesting. However, as evidenced in Forstfell, the eastern lythari cover great distances by mundane means only (transformation). Your suggestion (world-walk) would have saved Amira and gang the time and energy in rescuing her "son."
And that's a lot of the reason I consider the eastern ones to be a different branch. My theory is that a group of them went over there, and encountered that powerful spirit thing whose name eludes me (I've not read the book in years). This spirit needed assistance, and perhaps even convinced the lythari they'd been sent to aid it. They agreed to serve the spirit, and the spirit touched them in such a way as to bind the lythari to it. Not binding as in forced servitude, but more of replacing the connection the lythari had to their home plane with a connection to the spirit. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2012 : 21:48:49
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Or they simply did not want to show outsiders that ability.
Or they have lost so much of their original culture - as I have said with the language, they have been 'rubbing shoulders' with the Tuigan, Shou, eastern Faerunians (Ruamvari), etc.
I assume that a part of being 'an elf' means staying true to certain values & beliefs (things which do not always translate well into human concepts). The further a being strays from this 'path', the more one distances one self from Faerie.
So they could be hiding it, or they could have lost it through cultural diffusion.
Or they could have also lost it because of what Wooly says - Hro'nyewachu (in Akhrasut Neth) may have been an outcast (from the feywild) Archfey, and following her may have 'tainted' them in some way. In fact, the name doesn't even sound in the least be Fey-ish. That thing may have been a Fiend (and not just a demon or devil - it could have been a 'loth or an Oni).
Hmmm... once again a thread has me postulating interesting possibilities... how much difference is there, really, between arch-fiends and archfey? Could they all just be the same thing (power-wise), applied to different primordial (antideluvian?) races?
EDIT looking at the name again, it almost has a Native American sound to it - perhaps thats how Mark Sehestedt imagined them. It fits with the rest of his presentation of them.
I think I like his work just a little bit less now - he went back to the 'Elves are Indians' thinking of the late 80's and early 90's (seen in much fantasy artwork). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Jan 2012 23:50:28 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2012 : 22:05:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Or they simply did not want to show outsiders that ability.
In the context of Frostfell, that's unlikely, as the "race to finish" I mentioned above was very important to them. Amira even had to use her teleportation spell to gain considerable distance. Also, even if they did not want to show her their supposed ability, if they really could do it, they would have done so secretly, as they had more than enough opportunities (should they wish to exploit them). |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2012 : 23:52:16
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So what you are saying is Mark Sehestedt choose to ignore previous Lythari lore and 're-imagine' it more to his liking. Or rather, for the purposes of his story.
*meh*
I guess the "they lost their way" explanation is best. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2012 : 02:36:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I theorized (with Lord Karsus) that lythari have a 'world walk' ability that allows them to 'home in' on Feygates (places where the planer bounderies are weakest, and folk with fey heritage can 'cross over') and use them to cover vast distances by entering the Feywild (where the terrain is a compressed version of the Prime Material) and exiting it repeatedly. Using this 'short cut', they can cover hundreds of miles in just a matter of hours.
Interesting. However, as evidenced in Forstfell, the eastern lythari cover great distances by mundane means only (transformation). Your suggestion (world-walk) would have saved Amira and gang the time and energy in rescuing her "son."
And that's a lot of the reason I consider the eastern ones to be a different branch. My theory is that a group of them went over there, and encountered that powerful spirit thing whose name eludes me (I've not read the book in years). This spirit needed assistance, and perhaps even convinced the lythari they'd been sent to aid it. They agreed to serve the spirit, and the spirit touched them in such a way as to bind the lythari to it. Not binding as in forced servitude, but more of replacing the connection the lythari had to their home plane with a connection to the spirit.
I've been speculating on the origin and purpose of the oracle's true power. I've thought about connecting that to a more concrete spiritual-source. But I doubt the Vil Adranath themselves would actually know about this. Judging from the belkagen's word, these lythari don't know all that much about the oracle beyond the prophecies that she chooses to reveal.
I'm playing on the fact that the oracle herself "takes something" from those she assists with visions. It's noted in the novel during those scenes that she has "needs" that require fulfilment. And I'm thinking this is where spiritual angle might come in -- in that the spirit has a vested interest in the activity of the oracle. Perhaps the "needs" are coming from the spirit and manifesting in the mortal world via the oracle.
I suppose the binding Wooly speaks of in his working, could be a consequence of what occurs in these eastern lythari when the oracle touches them. |
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2012 : 05:10:54
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Which is why the whole situation has 'demonic' undertones (the way all of it seems to work, not the creature itself... maybe).
Which is why I am considering new possibilities about how outsiders actually 'work'. It seems, that at some point, all of them have the possibility of getting this 'Arch-' prefix (template?), which is like a pre-deity tier.
Which made me think that things with the 'Arch-' in front of it were exarchs (in 4e lingo), but then the terminology gets a bit messed up.
Ergo, I have decide that 'Archon' is a Planer Tier of beings, above 'common' fiends, Angels, elementals, etc. I realize this craps on some former canon, but it works for me. Then I can take the 'exarch' term and apply it to the level below - the 'servants' of the Planes.
Ergo, Demons, Devils, Elementals, Angels, devas, Yugoloths, etc are the 'common' version of outsiders, and when you apply the prefix 'Arch' it infers a much higher level of power; a demi-god level.
I have to think on this more - Oriental mythology does not differentiate between 'angels' and 'demons' - all Celestial servants are 'Oni' (and serve both good and bad powers). Apparently, there is a universal set of rules in-place, and the archfey simply fall into this same category (which makes me re-think Fey - they seem to somehow evolved from a Creator race to an Outsider Race.
Like I said, I have to work on this line of reasoning more - apparently there is more then one road to 'godhood', but all of them require mortal worship (or veneration, in the case of hero-gods that ascend, like Hercules or the Red Knight). The Vil Aldranath simply take the place of cultists for Hro'nyewachu.
And I've had to really sharpen my search-fu since I've lost my sources - I don't even have that book anymore; finding those names earlier was a nightmare (I had to search-out my own previous postings - something I am doing a lot of lately).
Anyway - back on topic. Until (and unless) Mark Sehestedt writes more Realms novels, I don't think we will learn anything else about Eastern Lythari. Considering how he didn't connect anything together in his two Hordelands novels, I doubt even a future novel will feature them. Damn shame - considering the proximity, it would have been cool if we just got an off-hand reference, at least. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Mar 2012 02:10:08 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2012 : 06:19:01
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The Chosen of Nendawen series touches on the Lythari.
It is a good series. Very rugged series.
I am about to start book III Cry of the GhostWolf. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2012 : 07:33:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So what you are saying is Mark Sehestedt choose to ignore previous Lythari lore and 're-imagine' it more to his liking. Or rather, for the purposes of his story.
*meh*
I guess the "they lost their way" explanation is best.
You're free to present whatever conjecture you like. It's just not how I see it in the said novel. I haven't yet read Mark's latest trilogy, so I don't know how he made a follow up on this lore. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2012 : 05:15:14
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-Information about Lythari and the Eastern Lythari can be found in Book I of Elves of Faerūn.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I theorized (with Lord Karsus) that lythari have a 'world walk' ability that allows them to 'home in' on Feygates (places where the planer bounderies are weakest, and folk with fey heritage can 'cross over') and use them to cover vast distances by entering the Feywild (where the terrain is a compressed version of the Prime Material) and exiting it repeatedly. Using this 'short cut', they can cover hundreds of miles in just a matter of hours.
-As Elaine Cunningham clarified, since she was the first to have Lythari (Ganamede in [/i]Evermeet: Island of Elves[/i]) "plane shift", just like dogs have keener senses than Humans, Lythari have keener senses than Elves. They are able to sense where the boundaries between the Material Plane and their denword- presumably on Faerie- are weakest/thinnest, and slip back and forth between the two.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Or they simply did not want to show outsiders that ability.
-Precisely. We know canines to be very territorial, and we know from Evermeet: Island of Elves that Lythari are no different. Ganamede only traveled with Arilyn in that manner because he trusted her as if she was part of the pack. That said, however, the Eastern Lythari do have a certain kind of 'exodus' vibe to them, which would indicate that they don't regularly slip between Faerie and the Material Planes, that they long for their ancestral home that they can no longer get back to. Note, this doesn't necessarily mean that they don't have the ability to travel in this manner. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 29 Feb 2012 05:24:50 |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2012 : 11:06:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
The Chosen of Nendawen series touches on the Lythari.
It is a good series. Very rugged series.
I am about to start book III Cry of the GhostWolf.
Yes it has a very primeval type of feel to it. I quite enjoyed this series and I consider the main character to be a Lythari. Deeds not blood. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2013 : 18:23:01
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| Just wondering, how much does this series "Chosen of Nendawen" touch on the history of the Lythari? Does it reveal much on the Vil Adanrath? Does it reveal any on the history of the early fey in Toril? Betting the answer is no, but figured I'd ask. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2013 : 06:45:03
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Yeah, there are two totally different groups of lythari - different to the point that for one group their lycanthropy can be passed on to others and in the other it is strictly a genetic trait.
The latter groups was featured in one of Elaine's novels as the lifelong allies of Arlyn Moonblade - as a child she befriended one, and later his clan/pack helped rescue the sylvan elves of the south. |
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Eastern Lythari
