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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 20:13:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Ed's Realms are said to have diverged from the published Realms, but we don't know how, in what ways, or how much.
I bet we have lots to learn, but we know quite a bit about this already. New thread?
Yeah, a new thread probably would be better for this. And yeah, I do know that we know bits and pieces about Ed's Realms. What I meant was more that there are probably a good number of changes or differences that we haven't even heard about yet. That will be really interesting to see. Unless it gets a lot of heavy editing to "match" more with what we know.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
I suspect that Ed's Realms (the book) will be a one-shot, and it will detail any novel events that he decided should go in his Realms. Some of his own novels (such as El must Die, etc.) may or may not fit into his Realms, which is something interesting to think about.
Ed's campaign is up to 1359 DR at the latest, his players having voted not to use the Avatar Crisis -- so never mind El Must Die, the Shadow of the Avatar books don't fit into Knights-campaign Faerûn. If Elminster's Forgotten Realms is based on his campaign notes it'll presumably focus on the time up to then, rather than a speculative later history.
Sure, there are bound to be lots of differences. Even with his gods. And I agree, I doubt that he's gotten up to 1379, much less to 1479, so a variant "future" or "present" probably won't be something we see.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 20:48:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
I'm just answering Markus's questions.
Where exactly does the "4E fans can suck it" fall into that?
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Olive branches, such as they are, must appeal to the person to whom they're presented; otherwise, they are less than nothing.
And here I thought it was the thought that counted.
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Call me selfish if you like, Tyrant.
I don't believe I did. I said you appear to be that way. To me, there is a difference between those statements.
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I prefer to think of myself as self-oriented with respect to money spent on a game. A luxury item. Something that I don't need, if I buy it, should be exactly what I want and nothing else.
No one's trying to force you to buy or like anything.
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To state that isn't being selfish, it's merely advocating one's preference.
It's how you state it and what you want. You don't just want them to make some things to cater to you because that isn't enough for some reason. You want them to destroy or marginalize what others like to appease you. That is self centered no matter how you slice it.
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It reminds me of the old Cat-in-the-hat story of green eggs and ham: no matter how you marginally modify those green eggs and ham, I don't want them. The gigantic difference is that I've actually read and reviewed the 4E Realms: I tried those green eggs and ham, and I -still- don't want them in ANY way, shape or form.
The reasonable approach is don't buy the green eggs and ham. The unreasonable approach is to want to make sure every green pig and chicken is utterly destroyed so no one can have them or to demand that they are put in some special place where others can ignore them.
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Trying to continue to force them on me, which is what this current design team will do, means absolutely nothing has really changed. They're making the exact same mistake, worse actually, than the 4E Realms designers. So I either have to eat those green eggs and ham (which I have tried, and despise), or I can go elsewhere.
No one's forcing anything on you. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 22:06:01
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What if the new 'Ed' book(s) is edition-neutral completely?
What if, as Faraer pointed-out, they are about the Realms before they were publish (1359 DR)?
No explanation, no saying its an 'alternative timelime'. Then what? We could assume it is, but we could just as easily assume it isn't. They might just be clever enough to put the ball in our court. If that tome (and future ones) only showcase stuff we have never seen before (from Ed's notes, or completely new material), how will we even know 'which world' it falls into?
I think they may be trying to 'have their cake and eat it to', but we shall see. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Feb 2012 22:07:32 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 22:26:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
What if the new 'Ed' book(s) is edition-neutral completely?
What if, as Faraer pointed-out, they are about the Realms before they were publish (1359 DR)?
They may be edition-neutral, and I agreed with Faraer. IIRC, Ed's personal Realms diverged pre-ToT and I don't think they're even close to 1385.
quote:
No explanation, no saying its an 'alternative timelime'. Then what? We could assume it is, but we could just as easily assume it isn't. They might just be clever enough to put the ball in our court. If that tome (and future ones) only showcase stuff we have never seen before (from Ed's notes, or completely new material), how will we even know 'which world' it falls into?
With no Avatar crisis, it'd be an alternative timeline by definition. I don't think they'd need to say it. And it could very well have Abeir in some form, or not... we don't know.
quote:
I think they may be trying to 'have their cake and eat it to', but we shall see.
Possibly. Time will tell.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 22:39:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
I'm just answering Markus's questions.
Where exactly does the "4E fans can suck it" fall into that?
I said superfans not just fans, referring to the (now largely silent) group of vocal haters of 3+ years ago. You seem intent on continually taking me out of context.
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quote:
Olive branches, such as they are, must appeal to the person to whom they're presented; otherwise, they are less than nothing.
And here I thought it was the thought that counted.
Hollow gestures are hollow.
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Call me selfish if you like, Tyrant.
I don't believe I did. I said you appear to be that way. To me, there is a difference between those statements.
Textbook equivocation. You use provocative language, then back away from the responsibility of having used such language. Do you understand how that makes you appear?
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 23:27:37
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| Therise, relax. This is a place of love, language, and learning - not a litany of lip and loss. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 23:34:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
Therise, relax. This is a place of love, language, and learning - not a litany of lip and loss.
I'm supposed to relax after someone calls me selfish, then hides... yes take me to task, I'm the offender.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 23:54:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
I'm just answering Markus's questions.
Where exactly does the "4E fans can suck it" fall into that?
I said superfans not just fans, referring to the (now largely silent) group of vocal haters of 3+ years ago. You seem intent on continually taking me out of context.
I think your blatant insult speaks for itself. You should be clear about who you are insulting first for those of us without the translation guide.
I had replies to the rest but it's pointless. You said what you said and I called you on it. Quit trying to justify it. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 23:55:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
Therise, relax. This is a place of love, language, and learning - not a litany of lip and loss.
I'm supposed to relax after someone calls me selfish, then hides... yes take me to task, I'm the offender.
Hides? Don't blame me if you don't understand the difference between those two statements. In point of fact you are the offender by telling a portion of the fanbase to suck it. Pretty bold to say I am hiding. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
Edited by - Tyrant on 01 Feb 2012 23:56:35 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 00:01:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
I'm just answering Markus's questions.
Where exactly does the "4E fans can suck it" fall into that?
I said superfans not just fans, referring to the (now largely silent) group of vocal haters of 3+ years ago. You seem intent on continually taking me out of context.
I think your blatant insult speaks for itself. You should be clear about who you are insulting first for those of us without the translation guide.
I had replies to the rest but it's pointless. You said what you said and I called you on it. Quit trying to justify it.
You re-worded what I said, and took it out of context.
You are now blatantly trolling. Nice!
I'm done with you.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 00:02:07
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| Both of you, can it. Doesn't a shelf somewhere need dusting? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 00:27:31
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Indeed. We all need to step back and relax for a bit.
And as I've commented before, part of the reason the edition wars happened is because of people not respecting each other's opinions. Some comments in this thread show this same behavior -- and it's not something we need.
So perhaps we can all damp it down a bit, and get back on the topic? I should hate to close a previously productive thread... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 00:40:08
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I think passions are simply coming into conflict.
We can all appreciate the passions each of us have for the Realms. And we can all appreciate the dreams for what each of us desire for the future of the setting.
So perhaps we should all try to appreciate that, before contributing further to this scroll. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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ZeshinX
Learned Scribe
Canada
210 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 00:43:32
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| I'd like to see Cyric reduced in significance/power or his outright destruction and the return of Myrkul and Bhaal. Both of them have relatively established lore for a means of their return. Myrkul has the Crown of Horns and NWN2's Spiriteater of Rashemen (assuming video games set in the Realms are official canon). Bhaal has his Bhaalspawn of the BG Saga and some of his essence in the waters about Boareskyr Bridge. |
"...because despite the best advice of those who know what they are talking about, other people insist on doing the most massively stupid things."
-Galen, technomage |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 00:47:36
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Apologies for interjecting, but I’m letting my loud internet mouth get the best of me.
This is in response to Tyrant’s points to Therise, I think those points apply to more than one person here.
From my perspective, I had the setting I liked destroyed or marginalized to appease another group, the loudest segment of this other group had a severe aversion to anything Realms related. That was self-centered of them. They didn’t even bother slicing it any which way. They were down right dismissive of the old edition setting and by extension the fans of the previous setting.
I haven’t read the Green Eggs and Ham story in a long time, I don’t recall the details, but I always had the impression the green eggs and ham were rotten and moldy. Not only are green eggs and ham undesirable, they’re dangerous. If the problem exist up the supply chain, what do the regulatory bodies do? They cull the livestock to keep contamination out of the food supply. Exactly, regulation officials order the utter destruction of the items or livestock so no one can access them or at least they quarantine them so they are not a danger to the rest of the population.
This is talk of health standards in no way applies to the publication and support of a fictional setting, right?
Think of the Old Realms, at its worst, as a poor inbred line of Realms “chicken-hogs” due to mismanagement by Farmer WotC who relied on the same specimens to rake in the the cash (RSEs and the like). It needed new blood, so Farmer WotC, listening to a few customers of his Core Oatmeal brand and his Eberroni Luncheon Meats brand, decided to try some newfangled genetically modified mutant (Spellplague), the green chickenhog. Farmer WotC lets Spellplague mutant chickenhog ravage his stock (killed it and take its stuff) and let the mutant breed with his hen-sows for several generations (100 year jump) before debuting his new product to the public.
Some people bit, but many asked why is the meat green and rotten, it looks unappetizing. Also, isn’t the resultant hybrid animal sterile (originally no further publication support)? Thinking the new product causes health problems, many turned away, to other brands or decided to raise their own chickenhogs. A few years down the line, Farmer WotC thinks maybe this isn’t such a great idea for probably a lot of reasons. He wants to make a chickenhog everyone will love to consume. He promises to breed chickenhogs to a lighter shade of green. Many fans of his old chickenhogs prefer it without any trace of the green Spellplague mutation. Fans of his Core Oatmeal and Eberroni Luncheon Meats looked up for a second, chuckled their amusement at the green Realms (“they actually listened to us, so funny, silly Farmer WotC!”) then returned to what favorites they’ve always loved.
What is Farmer WotC to do?
A) Continue with his light green chickenhog lineage.
B) Cull his stock and get back some natural chickenhogs.
C) Get out of the chickenhog business.
D) Go with natural chickhogs, but keep a few green ones in a separate pen.
Translating that to the actual situation, WotC the game company can:
A) Water down the Spellplague and try convincing all camps this is the version of the Realms that will unite all fans.
B) Eradicate the Spellplague Realms and bring back the Pre-Plague Realms.
C) Don’t publish any version of the Realms.
D) Jump back to the classic Realms but support the Spellplague as a separate “what if” curiosity.
Now if WotC chooses to continue with the Spellplague, I am offered virtually no choice. With the choice between a setting I don’t like or not supporting the setting at all, they are in a way forcing me to buy/like their product or not at all.
So the pro-Spellplague side now asks why I can’t just ignore the parts of the setting I don’t like and use what I do?
Gee, that question sounds awfully familiar.
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 01:22:19
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Heh, Eberroni Luncheon Meats. 
Nicely stated, Dark Wizard.
It really does feel like deja vu.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 01:53:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
From my perspective, I had the setting I liked destroyed or marginalized to appease another group, the loudest segment of this other group had a severe aversion to anything Realms related. That was self-centered of them. They didn’t even bother slicing it any which way. They were down right dismissive of the old edition setting and by extension the fans of the previous setting.
They shouldn't have listened to those loud people. It was a mistake. However, I don't believe doing the same thing again is the answer. You don't win back people who feel betrayed by betraying someone else. I don't know why anyone would trust WotC at all if their solution was to screw over their current fans, again. It's utterly nonsensical to me. It's like the person who gets cheated on taking back the cheater after they dump the person they were cheating with for the last 4 years. I've never seen that end well.
I think it is beyond foolish to throw away current customers in pursuit of an unknown. We are possibly quite lucky that the IP survived at all. I don't believe taking that same gamble again is a smart move. A bird in the hand and all that.
I'll ignore the implication that I am enjoying a toxic product. Though parts of that were funny.
quote:
So the pro-Spellplague side now asks why I can’t just ignore the parts of the setting I don’t like and use what I do?
The reason I ask that type of question is two fold. 1) Aren't you and most of the fans already doing that to one degree or another?* 2) If not, then you accepted the possibility of something you don't like having power over you by being a slave to canon. You knew what you were getting into.
*I do get that this means that future material becomes less useful as those elements you dislike are built upon. That is an issue. But, there are only 2 real solutions (that I see). 1) Never advance anything ever. We've blown right past this idea being viable. 2) Alternate timelines. But, where do you draw the line? Does every event ever get an alternate so you don't offend anybody? Where does it end? This is just the way it goes. When you have events in motion and future products build off past events then you will eventually have something you don't like happen and it will eventually take up a noticeable amount of material as future events build off of it.
I think a better solution is to try to fill in the time gap as much as possible while providing lore and RPG material from all eras of the timeline. Yes, the Spellplague is still there, but I think it would be easier to ignore if you knew what else was going on during the time gap instead of having to basically make it all up as you go. If you're playing in 1385, who cares what's going in the late 1400s? If your character is human he won't be alive. Any human NPCs won't be alive. Your game is highly unlikely to play out over that kind of time frame. You can ignore everything about the Year of the Ageless One if you want to. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 02:12:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
From my perspective, I had the setting I liked destroyed or marginalized to appease another group, the loudest segment of this other group had a severe aversion to anything Realms related. That was self-centered of them. They didn’t even bother slicing it any which way. They were down right dismissive of the old edition setting and by extension the fans of the previous setting.
They shouldn't have listened to those loud people. It was a mistake. However, I don't believe doing the same thing again is the answer. You don't win back people who feel betrayed by betraying someone else. I don't know why anyone would trust WotC at all if their solution was to screw over their current fans, again. It's utterly nonsensical to me. It's like the person who gets cheated on taking back the cheater after they dump the person they were cheating with for the last 4 years. I've never seen that end well.
This isn't quite the right analogy. It's more like the guy (Wotc) dumped his faithful wife (old fans) for a hot young babe (4e fans). But he misses his wife, wants her back, but says he won't leave the new woman. Can the guy really have both? Good luck. |
"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 02:55:21
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quote:
Originally posted by ZeshinX
I'd like to see Cyric reduced in significance/power or his outright destruction and the return of Myrkul and Bhaal. Both of them have relatively established lore for a means of their return. Myrkul has the Crown of Horns and NWN2's Spiriteater of Rashemen (assuming video games set in the Realms are official canon). Bhaal has his Bhaalspawn of the BG Saga and some of his essence in the waters about Boareskyr Bridge.
I like this idea. In my opinion, Cyric (and Kelemvor, actually, come to think of it) has outlived any usefulness to the Realms, regardless of timeline or incarnation. We can't retcon him out of existence, so let's just have him...and there's simply no delicate way to put this...snuffed out. Get rid of them both - that also solves the ToT debate, as that means all three 'new deities' are gone. While I didn't much have an opinion one way or the other on the ToT, it seems to me that it would solve the issue rather well.
Let his released divine essence be the spark that bring back our lost deities that weren't a waste of time and creativity (Vhaeraun, Helm, Eilistraee, Savras, and so on), and pave the way for Myrkul and Bhaal to come back.
While I am firmly in Therise's camp on most things, I maintain that the Shattered Realms can indeed be salvaged. BUT...I also maintain that Wizbro, as she stated, doesn't have the chops to do what's needed to make them into something even remotely resembling the Forgotten Realms we all first knew and loved. Someone, somewhere, will step in the big steaming pile - again - and no one will be happy with the result. The Neverwinter Campaign Setting was true awesomeness, but it's a shining coin in a field of muck - and I just don't trust Wizbro to produce any more coins, shining, tarnished, or otherwise.
I am, in truth, amazed that they have Ed working on giving us his Realms - I sat in shock for a couple of minutes before the feeling of anticipation flooded over me like a shot of dilaudid after a kidney stone. If this is all they offer, and provided we don't get some professor trying to 'improve' it, I will be content. And it will be there that all my player's characters shall dwell thereafter.  |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 03:04:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
This isn't quite the right analogy. It's more like the guy (Wotc) dumped his faithful wife (old fans) for a hot young babe (4e fans). But he misses his wife, wants her back, but says he won't leave the new woman. Can the guy really have both? Good luck.
Damn right he can.
For about a month and a half... until Valentine's day... then your screwed...
{I didn't say nuthin'... I wasn't even here...}
Anyhow, can we fight after we actually have something to complain about? We haven't even seen what they are going to do - What do we call this? Preemptive B**ching? Seriously?
Like I said before, it can only get better. Right now all we have is 4e (and our old stuff), and they've admitted they've made mistakes. There is no place to go but up, for all of us. 4e is dead, dead as a doornail - can't you just savor the moment? Its like being released from prison after a 3-year sentence, and then complaining that now you have to feed and cloth yourself.
Rejoice! My Kara-Turran calender says this is the year of the Greenwood! 
EDIT: damn you Harpell - you screwed up my delivery. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Feb 2012 03:05:40 |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 03:13:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
EDIT: damn you Harpell - you screwed up my delivery.
Isn't that what Harpells do? |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 03:28:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
Someone, somewhere, will step in the big steaming pile - again - and no one will be happy with the result.
I think that is going to happen no matter which path they take. At some point either someone will get a bright idea or they will need to do something to raise sales. Reboot, alternate timelines, nothing but post Year of the Ageless One. They all run that risk. It's a matter of how pissed everyone already is before it happens that will determine how many stay and how many leave.
quote:
The Neverwinter Campaign Setting was true awesomeness, but it's a shining coin in a field of muck - and I just don't trust Wizbro to produce any more coins, shining, tarnished, or otherwise.
I think we should wait and see on that one. There are a few other products coming out this year that will tell us if it is truly a diamond in the rough or if it is the start of a new trend. I perfectly understand not wanting to give WotC the benefit of the doubt though.
quote:
I am, in truth, amazed that they have Ed working on giving us his Realms - I sat in shock for a couple of minutes before the feeling of anticipation flooded over me like a shot of dilaudid after a kidney stone. If this is all they offer, and provided we don't get some professor trying to 'improve' it, I will be content. And it will be there that all my player's characters shall dwell thereafter.
And perhaps this is yet another sign that they have learned some kind of lesson. Now to be negative to save others the trouble: Or it is a sign that they are supremely desperate. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 03:28:57
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@Therise
Eberron, in my mind, is a highly refined and controlled product that aims and achieves exactly what it was meant to. You really do know what you’re getting into. While colorful it is a bit scattered feeling (FR has an excuse in that regard). I enjoy its pulp fun.
I do envy its protected status with Wizards just a bit, being allowed to weather the edition without too much awkwardness.
@Tyrant
Even if WotC is receptive to the Old Realms for 5E, come 6E the situation might turn against fans of both versions. A third version, or a new setting, or no setting, or a million different things can arise by then.
I don’t trust WotC, especially not after the Spellplague. I don’t expect loyalty to the customer base from WotC. They should also know by now to never expect loyalty ever again from their customers either, one betrayal too many and all that. Even if WotC is catering to one set of fans, everyone knows what can and likely will happen eventually. Even the fans of other settings know of the extreme situation WotC placed on FR. They speak of such potential events for their own favorite setting as a boogeyman of sorts.
What does matter is product. Products that fans want. I’m just making my preference clear and explaining why I think so. You disagree with my opinion. We can chat about this topic, but I don’t think we will agree on anything regarding this.
The chickenhog thing was mostly jest, glad you saw it as such. As for enjoying a toxic product, I do think the Spellplague Realms is in a way a toxic product. Not to the individual fans, but to the fan community and the IP in general due to the discontinuity between the two versions, the division of the fan-base, any many other reasons. You are, of course without saying, free to enjoy any product you wish.
I like the Pre-Plague setting, I dislike the Spellplagued setting. I simply want more of what I like and none of what I don’t. I already take what I wanted during the pre-4E days and declined to use the rest. Why is suddenly the Spellplagued Realms unacceptable? I feel the differences are too far, yet the similarities are too close. It is half-baked, wishy-washy morass that just confuses the issue and dilutes the setting. I don’t use enough of the Spellplague to warrant paying attention to it, but because it’s branded as the Realms, I have to look at it to make sure. Every time I look at it, I’m reminded of my distaste for the whole thing. Every time I try to enter a game even now, I have to ask Pre-Plague or Spellplague.
I might not treat the Spellplague as worthwhile to include in my games, but it is canon and that influence reaches far. I don’t want the Spellplague ever looming in the future of my 1300s games, an albatross hanging over the heads of my group, eroding our stories and accomplishments. We save a town but know in a decade according to canon it will be wiped out by a cataclysm. The designers made sure the Spellplagued Realms stretched back to maximize its footprint. The problems start before even 1385. The retcon of Abeir and the Primordials reaches back even further. Human characters are going to face the problems within their lifetimes.
If I choose to purchase the Arcane Age supplements and play in the Fall of Netheril or during the Weeping War of Cormanthor and the Fall of Myth Drannor, I am voluntarily entering those games with that intent. Those are long established points in the distant past of the setting and defining moments of history and highlights of plot, conflict and even morality/ethics. I did not buy the 1370-80s Realms to see it go through the less cleverly executed Year of Blue Fire and the Spellplague or see a century of time past and being dictated to on what I like.
It is like if I told you, “you will die in two years” and even if you managed to live, everyone else will believe you’ve died as they will keep reading about the major event that killed you. That will change your perception on life. Further more, imagine if a time traveler told you your country will become a wasteland in ten years and you might try to avoid it, but to everyone else in the world, that is how it will turn out. This is a very frustrating and gloomy prospect, even if a fictional world.
I feel it takes the fun out of games in the 1300s. We can change it, but every time WotC releases Spellplagued lore, it’s a big “Nah Ah” to what happens in the ‘past’. The Spellplague is a big party pooper and bubble burster, simple as that.
Removing the Spellplague from canon, officially and unequivocally, means I don't have to ask anymore. People who want to play in the Spellplague become like the Arcane Age folks, they go into it knowing what they get. Everyone else continues on as they wish, the future is free and clear for what our games make it to be. Sure Wizards will advance the timeline gradually/eventually, but we'll navigate that cross roads when it comes.
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Edited by - Dark Wizard on 02 Feb 2012 03:30:30 |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 03:57:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
I feel it takes the fun out of games in the 1300s. We can change it, but every time WotC releases Spellplagued lore, it’s a big “Nah Ah” to what happens in the ‘past’. The Spellplague is a big party pooper and bubble burster, simple as that.
And this is the issue that people (like myself) who have advocated a divergent Sliders-style timeline have with 'support for all eras of the Realms'. Well...great...good for Wizbro, BUT it doesn't address this extremely valid concern.
I can have my players send their characters to Mulhorand to stop a Thayan plot, but in the back of my mind, I know that unless it happens to be Gheldaneth, the Thayan is wasting his time hatching any sort of plot involving Mulhorand (and likely even then), and Unther doesn't even get that 'unless'. Any victory the characters achieve will, as Lorien said in Babylon Five, 'turn to ash'. And that knowledge will always be there during the game, lurking like Jack the Ripper in an East End alley.
It is things like this that baffle me when the anti-timeline folks stand square against the idea. It seems they don't understand this argument, and are not willing to compromise, even when we say we are not advocating tossing out the Shattered Realms, but that we simply want a future that is not the Shattered Realms to play in. We are trying to compromise, to say that they can have theirs, and we'll have ours, and we'll all talk about the Realms here in Candlekeep, regardless of incarnation, and since the serious bone of contention will be gone, that's one less divisive topic we'll need to deal with.
But with Ed's labors on the way, I am hoping the issue will resolve itself, anyways. With much of the Realms as he envisioned them bound to be wildly different from even pre-Shattered Realms canon, the Shattered Realms won't ever come to pass in that iteration, anyways - which I actually believe is the entire point. |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 04:21:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
I feel it takes the fun out of games in the 1300s. We can change it, but every time WotC releases Spellplagued lore, it’s a big “Nah Ah” to what happens in the ‘past’. The Spellplague is a big party pooper and bubble burster, simple as that.
And this is the issue that people (like myself) who have advocated a divergent Sliders-style timeline have with 'support for all eras of the Realms'. Well...great...good for Wizbro, BUT it doesn't address this extremely valid concern.
I can have my players send their characters to Mulhorand to stop a Thayan plot, but in the back of my mind, I know that unless it happens to be Gheldaneth, the Thayan is wasting his time hatching any sort of plot involving Mulhorand (and likely even then), and Unther doesn't even get that 'unless'. Any victory the characters achieve will, as Lorien said in Babylon Five, 'turn to ash'. And that knowledge will always be there during the game, lurking like Jack the Ripper in an East End alley.
If you find out you are going to die tomorrow, has your life been meaningless? Is everything you do from the moment you find out until the moment you die meaningless? You, and I, and everyone else, will eventually die. We all know this. We all have a rough idea of the maximum amount of time we have, but none of us knows the minimum. Are our actions pointless because in 100 years we will be dead?
I get that it is an issue for the player. I don't dispute that. What I am saying is is it any less meaningful to do heroic deeds now knowing that they will be forgotten in 10 years instead of 100 or 1000? Nothing lasts forever. If I know someone has an incurable disease that will kill them in 10 years and I see them severaly injured should I just let them die because they are basically one step from death already? I would argue that the more heroic act is to continue to fight on knowing that your deeds will be rendered meaningless because it is the right thing to do now. That town that will be blasted to dust in 10 years hasn't been blasted to dust yet. That's my view anyway. I understand if others don't share it.
quote:
It is things like this that baffle me when the anti-timeline folks stand square against the idea. It seems they don't understand this argument, and are not willing to compromise, even when we say we are not advocating tossing out the Shattered Realms, but that we simply want a future that is not the Shattered Realms to play in. We are trying to compromise, to say that they can have theirs, and we'll have ours, and we'll all talk about the Realms here in Candlekeep, regardless of incarnation, and since the serious bone of contention will be gone, that's one less divisive topic we'll need to deal with.
I'm against it because I think it is a mistake. If I thought it could work right and both timelines kept going smoothly without the problems I have tried to elaborate on in the past, I would favor the idea. I just don't think it can work for the reasons I have already stated.
quote:
But with Ed's labors on the way, I am hoping the issue will resolve itself, anyways. With much of the Realms as he envisioned them bound to be wildly different from even pre-Shattered Realms canon, the Shattered Realms won't ever come to pass in that iteration, anyways - which I actually believe is the entire point.
I hope everyone counting on this book get what they are searching for. I'm going to buy it, but I am not getting my hopes up that it will be the magic bullet some are looking for. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 05:35:00
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Right, knowing the future doesn't invalidate everything, but it does put a major weight for things to turn out a certain way, no matter how hard we try not to, especially as WotC keeps harping the Spellplague line. What the Spellplague does is impinge one the sense of hope of players and thus their characters who like the Pre-Plague Realms, maybe not greatly, but the pressure is there. It's not the end of the game, but it's annoying and disruptive. I think that was the point of the change, to nudge the community towards the new setting. I would prefer to not have it.
If I knew someone was to die in ten years, but they're injured now, of course I would help them, but there is a bittersweet inevitability to the situation. That colors all interactions with that person. In a way it's not too different from a retcon, but at least a retcon states it clearly. If we depend on DM fiat to rule for or against the Spellplague in their games, the old Realms is at a bit of a disadvantage because canon defaults to the Spellplague. If the Spellplague is not canon, the default is no Spellplague. This does shift the problem to people who like the Spellplague, but I feel the setting is easier to adapt that way due to the additive nature rather than subtractive.
It's not a matter of everything eventually dying, it's the matter of knowing the company officially pushes the Spellplague, which is slated to take off in 1385 or thereabouts. I feel it does affects even what official lore we get from Wizards regarding the Pre-Plague Realms. The Spellplague was designed to be the angry gorilla in the room, in that respect it was designed well.
It may be more heroic to do the right thing now even know it will not last, but that is not the theme of every game. Just like in the movie Titanic, everyone knew the ship was sinking and characters could die, that was in part the appeal of the movie. That set up does not work for every movie, like it does not work for every game. The Spellplague indirectly limits the types of games out there.
I'm not doubting the quality book by Ed, but I'm not putting too much hope it will resolve everything regarding this problem. I understand he keeps his game separate from the published Realms, but he has the advantage of having a long running group that gels together. I have to wander around looking for them, this divide presents an extra barrier for me.
If WotC actually links up the two eras even more and fills in the 100 year gap, it further discourages me from supporting the setting. While I wish things will go my way, I'm pretty sure they will not. I'm prepared to remain on the sidelines and view the Realms as a mostly discontinued setting. Good for an occasional game, not something worth investing in over the long run, because from the official support, the setting will get pushed towards the Spellplague area of the spectrum. I will not buy a setting where I discard the majority of the material. I will stay with my existing material or use other settings instead. I want to support the setting, but I will not do so for a version I dislike.
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 05:59:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I, personally, don't see how splitting into two settings, one of which has the Spellplague and one of which doesn't, hurts the fans of either. And yes, for me, if we were given an alternate canon, splitting off some point before the Spellplague, I would be happy. If other people want the post-Spellplague Realms, it doesn't affect me in the slightest, so long as I have a Realms where that event is not in the past nor in the future.
And how is splitting 4e off into an alternate timeline any different?
What starting date for the 5e Realms would everyone suggest? You see, here's the REAL problem - unless they completely abolish 4e - say "it never happened" - then its still there. OUR Realms, pre-plague - still has Abeir floating around invisible inside the Crystal Sphere, does it not? You erase nothing by splitting the timeline, unless you split it WAY back, before 1e/2e/3e. Ed's Realms didn't have Abeir, or Primordials, but our Realms do NOW, no matter how we slice it. The only 'fix' for that - being able to truly say there are two completely separate timelines is to have the non-Spellplague timeline also start in 1479 DR, and who the hell is going to be a fan of that? Its not just an alternate timeline - its a different century!
Simply resetting the clock and saying the Plagued Realms are a 'possible Dark Future' doesn't alleviate anything, because the 4e lore retroactively change everything (especially the cosmology). We either compromise, or we do what Therise and others want and just say "it was all just a terrible dream - Elminster ate a bad burrito". The 'alternate timeline' just does not work (because of the massive retcons 4e made).
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying to call the post-Spellplague Realms one setting, and have another Realms where the Spellplague did not happen. The fans of the 4E Realms get their setting, and those who dislike it have the "Classic Realms," which goes in a different direction when it gets to that point. In other words, parallel worlds that are not related, other than having a common origin. Let the 4E Realms have the retconned history, and let the "Classic Realms" keep its pre-4E history.
And this is exactly what I've been talking about, and almost exactly what I want. What I'd really like in some ways is probably exactly what you want, Wooly... a reboot to the end of 2E. But honestly, I'd even be happy with "Ed's Realms" as a product line of its own, if that's what this new end-of-year product is testing the market for. Just give me a Realms without the Spellplague, or at least one in which the PCs can prevent it at the end of 3E. That would make me a very happy gamer.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 06:35:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
They shouldn't have listened to those loud people. It was a mistake. However, I don't believe doing the same thing again is the answer. You don't win back people who feel betrayed by betraying someone else. I don't know why anyone would trust WotC at all if their solution was to screw over their current fans, again. It's utterly nonsensical to me. It's like the person who gets cheated on taking back the cheater after they dump the person they were cheating with for the last 4 years. I've never seen that end well.
However, if the customer base they lost as a result of the Spellplague is significantly larger than the customer base they gained with the same move, then I would call it a risk worth taking. Clearly, the Spellplague was not a risk worth taking to begin with, or we wouldn't be having this discussion.
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
I think it is beyond foolish to throw away current customers in pursuit of an unknown. We are possibly quite lucky that the IP survived at all. I don't believe taking that same gamble again is a smart move. A bird in the hand and all that.
Except that this is exactly what they did with the Spellplague. They would actually be going back to a known quantity with known popularity, and we are lucky that the IP survived at all... but it would have been the Spellplague that killed it. A reboot to retcon the Spellplague out of existence (not what I want, BTW; what I want is a timeline split allowing the Spellplague to be prevented if the DM and players so choose) would be a return to a known quantity, and a highly popular one at that. Anyway, let's see what they actually do, shall we? |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 02 Feb 2012 06:36:19 |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 18:14:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Not at all... but "taking no official stance on the Spellplague" to me means "giving us another canonical option"... not simply a reboot to some earlier time so we can live in the past. The megamodule trilogy could have established a precedent allowing the PCs (and published adventures) to set the course for the Realms, instead of novels and RSEs. And really, they can make this work for the novels as well; novels set in the non-Spellplagued Realms can reference the 4E canon Realms through dreams, magic, and other such devices to let the Realms know that "this is what could have happened to us"... but it's all a moot point for me at this time; I'm waiting to see what happens in the next Elminster novel and what we get in the forthcoming Realms title at the end of the year. Honestly, the more I hear about what's going on, the more excited I am to see the new stuff... and hopefully I hear back regarding this 5e playtest soon.
This is pretty much my stance. I played through the last 3 modules and prevented the prophecy. Then it happened anyway, and they killed gods arbitrarily with no rhyme or reason other than the Realms as written could not have worked with the 4e ruleset.
If they want to keep the spellplague that's fine. Just offer an alternate canon. I am convinced one reason 4e was not so well received was the destruction of the forgotten realms. Hopefully enough voices will speak up to get WOTC to change the realms. I THINK it worked to spark an edition change, maybe it can work for a realms change.
Honestly though if they supported 4e plague realms but the majority of support went to pre 1385 realms I could still be onboard. I might even subscribe to DDI, to get that. I have to get my money's worth though, and half 4e material means my money is worth half as much as it should.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 18:25:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Hmmmm... like usual, I seem to have lost my point inside a bunch of random gibberish (my gibberish).
My point is that if they reset the clock to before the Spellplague (pick any date), and don't even talk about the Spellplague at all, will that still offend people?
Because them ignoring it before 1385DR does NOT invalidate the Spellplague at all. We have to be prepared for that possibility.
If they do precisely that - not even talk about the Spellplague one way or the other - its a great way to keep the 4e fans happy (because one could assume its still intact) and also keep the pre-plague fans happy.
But would that really make YOU happy, Therise, if they took no official stand on it one way or the other? Do they have to actually admonish/abolish 4e's existence for people to buy pre-plague material?
Their exact wording thus far has been "We plan to support all editions in 5e". That implies 4e lore remains in-place, weather they cater to the 4e crowd or not.
I guess what I'm driving at is, will it take hurting the 4e fans to make some of the folks around here happy? Will it really make a difference if they take no official stance on the Spellplague?
I don't really want to see 4e fans hurt. I like them.
Yet nobody asked the older fans how much they would hate if everything THEY liked was taken away, in fact very often people would just say GOOD, the old realms were too hard to play in anyway.
I don't want any fan to be hurt. My money however is good. I will not pay my money to get 4e realms support. If they ditch it I will be happy. All WOTC worried about was making new fans happy and they lost that bet. Well as an older fan I will be happy if 4e plague realms is left alone, not decanonized, but not mentioned ever again.
The 4e Forgotten Realms guide happened to be the perfect thickness to stop my dryer from wobbling. It has lived as a prop under my dryer for the last 3 years. I will not pay money for 50% 4e realms material.
I am more vocal about this now, because with the announcement of a new edition I feel like WOTC got smart and started listening to the people that stopped buying their product. I am just saying what will get me to start buying theirs again, nothing more.
If forgotten Realms is good, I will play 5e D&D along with Pathfinder. If Forgotten Realms reflects too much like the plague realms I will continue to play Pathfinder only. |
A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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What do you hope gets a detailed treatment?
