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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 21:02:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
"If you build it, they will come"
 
Indeed I have not been this interested in Forgotten Realms discussion in a long time. I have all of my previous sources and while I was mining Golarion for Realms material I decided to switch my campaign after they created the Inner Sea Guide which is of quality equal to many realms publications.
It would be nice to have novels written in the old world as well. I have not read a new Forgotten Realms novel since 2008. I would like to change that.
After losing hope for the realms, there is a slight glimmer.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
Edited by - Mournblade on 31 Jan 2012 21:03:43 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 21:16:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
"If you build it right, and remove the offensive parts, they will come"
Fixed that for ya.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 21:35:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
Indeed I have not been this interested in Forgotten Realms discussion in a long time. I have all of my previous sources and while I was mining Golarion for Realms material I decided to switch my campaign after they created the Inner Sea Guide which is of quality equal to many realms publications.
It would be nice to have novels written in the old world as well. I have not read a new Forgotten Realms novel since 2008. I would like to change that.
After losing hope for the realms, there is a slight glimmer.
I'm looking forward to it, too... I actually didn't bother mining Golarion; I just moved my entire campaign backstory over to Golarion, lock, stock, and barrel.
I'm really hoping we see novels from pre-1375 as well. I'd love for them to give Ed some room to write about the Seven Sisters... ideally at least one novel for each of the six of his creation (I believe Qilue was Steven Schend's originally, but I might be mistaken on that; I still don't have my 1E/2E sources with me apart from the occasional PDF). I'm particularly interested in Sylune, simply because she was already dead and spectral when the OGB came out, and Storm and Dove because they're the "odd ones" who aren't primarily wizard-types. Anyway, here's hoping for some good stuff coming up... it's unfortunate that we have to wait for so long, tho... 
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
"If you build it right, and remove the offensive parts, they will come"
Fixed that for ya.
Yep. Although honestly, for me it's less about removing stuff than about putting back the stuff that was wrongly removed in the first place... although I wouldn't be averse to a removal of the time jump, for reasons I've already gone into elsewhere (to summarize: let the PCs stop the Spellplague with the megatrilogy, or confess the hypocrisy of not doing so in the context of 4E's "let the PCs be the heroes" mantra). Anyway, Markustay and I both have a fix for bringing Halruaa back (see page 2 of this scroll), but his is better, so let's go with that: the entire realm is on Abeir, or trapped in the Feywild (pulled in with Evermeet), and (my addition) it's up to the PCs to bring it back with an epic quest. That would be the perfect "positive RSE" to usher in a 5E Realms that moves forward from the Spellplague... in fact, I think I'm going to post this to Erik's scroll on the subject.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 31 Jan 2012 22:00:48 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 22:07:39
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You just won't let it go, will you Therise? 
In all seriousness, though, what if they completely just ignore anything beyond, say... 1380?
They don't say the Spellplague happened, and they don't say it won't happen. What then? Will you require an absolute, 100% promise by them to never have the Spellplague, ever?
I'm just trying to wrap my head around the mindset of 'get rid of it all', simply because even if they really do that (which I doubt they'll do), we will still have our RW memories of it. What next - mind wipes for all of us? Say it was "all just a bad dream'?
You really can't 'just make it go away'. It they don't do something to fix it, then it will always be the elephant in the room, hanging over our heads (that's a scary though).
Even 'bad' canon is canon - can things be retro-actively de-canonized? Has that ever happened in an IP? (I know it happens in TV and movies all the time). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Feb 2012 00:20:35 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 00:16:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Even 'bad' canon is canon - can things be retro-actively de-canonized? Has that ever happened in an IP? (I know it hapens in TV and movies all the time).
Sure, it's called a retcon, and we've had some in the Realms. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 00:55:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
You just won't let it go, will you Therise?
Well, as I've said before, I really haven't seen any convincing reason for me to compromise.
quote:
In all seriousness, though, what if they completely just ignore anything beyond, say... 1380?
They don't say the Spellplague happened, and they don't say it won't happen. What then? Will you require an absolute, 100% promise by them to never have the Spellplague, ever?
Depends on how they do it, really. And it's not just about the Spellplague by itself, as you know.
quote:
I'm just trying to wrap my head around the mindset of 'get rid of it all', simply because even if they really do that (which I doubt they'll do), we will still have our RW memories of it. What next - mind wipes for all of us? Say it was "all just a bad dream'?
An official rejection of it would be a triumph of good sense, IMO. Memories of a "bad dream" or not.
quote:
You really can't 'just make it go away'. It they don't do something to fix it, then it will always be the elephant in the room, hanging over our heads (that's a scary though).
Ah, but this is fantasy. Of course they can make it all go away like a bad dream, if they are ballsy enough to do so. It's fantasy, not some real thing that actually happened. It's only real insofar as it's what they choose to promote... or not promote.
quote:
Even 'bad' canon is canon - can things be retro-actively de-canonized? Has that ever happened in an IP? (I know it happens in TV and movies all the time).
The fact that you see it in TV and movies "all the time" means that it can absolutely be done.
But this is digression from the main topic. I just wanted to tease you a little.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 01 Feb 2012 00:56:08 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 01:09:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
You just won't let it go, will you Therise?
In all seriousness, though, what if they completely just ignore anything beyond, say... 1380?
They don't say the Spellplague happened, and they don't say it won't happen. What then? Will you require an absolute, 100% promise by them to never have the Spellplague, ever?
For me, no. All I want is for that adventure megatrilogy to mean something; as canon stands right now, those three books can be completely removed without changing a thing events-wise, and as I've said several times already, that disempowers the PCs, which is exactly the opposite of what 4E's stated goals were. This, more than anything, is why I lost interest in the 4E Realms; WotC told us that X was the objective, then went ahead with Y (or not-X, if you want strict logic here). If events in individual campaigns lead to the Spellplague happening, even if it's a campaign I happen to be playing in, I'm fine with that, but such a campaign isn't something I want to be running as a DM. 
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm just trying to wrap my head around the mindset of 'get rid of it all', simply because even if they really do that (which I doubt they'll do), we will still have our RW memories of it. What next - mind wipes for all of us? Say it was "all just a bad dream'?
You really can't 'just make it go away'. It they don't do something to fix it, then it will always be the elephant in the room, hanging over our heads (that's a scary though).
Even 'bad' canon is canon - can things be retro-actively de-canonized? Has that ever happened in an IP? (I know it happens in TV and movies all the time).
Wooly answered that question. My question is, how do you 'fix' it without a retcon? Even smoothing out the lore and filling in the time jump, we've still lost a lot of what made the Realms a fun place to spend time in. Mind you, I've had enough time to reflect on it and admit that we've also gained a few things as well; risen Netheril is an interesting concept, but I would have done things differently in the details, and I'm glad to see the end of the derivative RW-ancient realms in Unther and Mulhorand. On the other hand, Thay and Halruaa... well, I've ranted about them elsewhere, but let's just say I'm not a fan. I would have liked more detail on the 4E Lands of Intrigue (Amn, Tethyr, Calimshan), but then I was also embittered by the demise of the print magazines, so I ignored DDI until Brian Cortijo made it impossible for me to continue doing so with his magnificent articles on Cormyr.
Anyway, to come back to Therise's original question: All of them, because Ed has piles of lore that need to be published and people like Brian Cortijo and the James brothers are adding to that kind of good stuff. There's my answer: All of the Realms. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Thrasymachus
Learned Scribe
195 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 01:12:25
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I would release the detailed updates in this order, and these subjects. I know that some areas are not merely ruined, but displaced so substitute a new area.
TSR 9213 - FR1 - Waterdeep & The North
TSR 9217 - FR2 – Moonshae
TSR 9224 - FR3 - Empires of the Sands
TSR 9229 - FR4 - The Magister
TSR 9233 - FR5 - The Savage Frontier
TSR 9235 - FR6 - Dreams of the Red Wizards
TSR 9252 - FR7 - Hall of Heroes
TSR 9262 - FR8 - Cities of Mystery boxed set
TSR 9267 - FR9 - The Bloodstone Lands
TSR 9274 - FR10 - Old Empires
TSR 9300 - FR11 - Dwarves Deep
TSR 9320 - FR13 – Anauroch
TSR 9324 - FR12 - The Horde Campaign
TSR 9351 - FR14 - The Great Glacier
TSR 9373 - FR15 - Gold & Glory
TSR 9388 - FR16 - The Shining South
And so on…
Eventually, they’ll get to “The North”, and I can get my Daggerford.
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Former Forgotten Realms brand manager Jim Butler: "Everything that bears the Forgotten Realms logo is considered canon". |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 01:25:06
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| What would I like to see? As Markustay mentioned way back, do racial books on both elves and dwarves, and I'd like one on gnomes and halflings, too, please! And maybe some of the other "odd" races- sauriels, et al.... Orcs and goblinoids- sure, why not? And I agree fully about a drow/underdark book, but PLEASE more detail on those "other cities" that are scattered all "under" the place! |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 01:44:57
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Hmmmm... like usual, I seem to have lost my point inside a bunch of random gibberish (my gibberish).
My point is that if they reset the clock to before the Spellplague (pick any date), and don't even talk about the Spellplague at all, will that still offend people?
Because them ignoring it before 1385DR does NOT invalidate the Spellplague at all. We have to be prepared for that possibility.
If they do precisely that - not even talk about the Spellplague one way or the other - its a great way to keep the 4e fans happy (because one could assume its still intact) and also keep the pre-plague fans happy.
But would that really make YOU happy, Therise, if they took no official stand on it one way or the other? Do they have to actually admonish/abolish 4e's existence for people to buy pre-plague material?
Their exact wording thus far has been "We plan to support all editions in 5e". That implies 4e lore remains in-place, weather they cater to the 4e crowd or not.
I guess what I'm driving at is, will it take hurting the 4e fans to make some of the folks around here happy? Will it really make a difference if they take no official stance on the Spellplague? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Feb 2012 02:26:48 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 02:23:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Hmmmm... like usual, I seem to have lost my point inside a bunch of random gibberish (my gibberish).
My point is that if they reset the clock to before the Spellplague (pick any date), and don't even talk about the Spellplague at all, will that still offend people?
Because them ignoring it before 1385DR does NOT invalidate the Spellplague at all. We have to be prepared for that possibility.
If they do precisely that - not even talk about the Spellplague one way or the other - its a great way to keep the 4e fans happy (because one could assume its still intact) and also keep the pre-plague fans happy.
That would work for me... as I've said before, my ideal solution is an alternate, equally-valid-with-4E timeline in which the PCs prevent the Spellplague, because it would validate over 300 pages of canon 3E material that has been essentially rendered pointless by the canon 4E timeline. Edit: I say only "over 300" because I'm referring specifically to the supermodule trilogy. There were a lot more than 300 pages published for the 3E Realms.[/edit]
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
But would that really make YOU happy, Therise, if they took no official stand on it one way or the other? Do they have to actually admonish/abolish 4e's existence for people to buy pre-plague material?
Their exact wording thus far has been "We plan to support all editions in 5e". That implies 5e lore remains in-place, weather they cater to the 4e crowd or not.
I guess what I'm driving at is, will it take hurting the 4e fans to make some of the folks around here happy? Will it really make a difference if they take no official stance on the Spellplague?
Not at all... but "taking no official stance on the Spellplague" to me means "giving us another canonical option"... not simply a reboot to some earlier time so we can live in the past. The megamodule trilogy could have established a precedent allowing the PCs (and published adventures) to set the course for the Realms, instead of novels and RSEs. And really, they can make this work for the novels as well; novels set in the non-Spellplagued Realms can reference the 4E canon Realms through dreams, magic, and other such devices to let the Realms know that "this is what could have happened to us"... but it's all a moot point for me at this time; I'm waiting to see what happens in the next Elminster novel and what we get in the forthcoming Realms title at the end of the year. Honestly, the more I hear about what's going on, the more excited I am to see the new stuff... and hopefully I hear back regarding this 5e playtest soon. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 01 Feb 2012 04:59:27 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 02:34:22
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You know, despite my defense of the 4e fanbase (NOT 4e itself), I personally wouldn't mind a complete reset (but I reiterate - that is NOT what I think is best for D&D).
But now, from my own post and your response, I just thought of something that hadn't occurred to me. What if they do split the timeline, and you can move between them? 
Hell, we already got Abeir.... whats another sister-world?
I've already suggested turning FR into a meta-setting, so what wrong with adding another setting-book for the 'Dark Future' alternate Toril? It could work.
Or say we have been on Abeir this whole time (4e)....  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Feb 2012 02:34:57 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 04:03:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
You know, despite my defense of the 4e fanbase (NOT 4e itself), I personally wouldn't mind a complete reset (but I reiterate - that is NOT what I think is best for D&D).
But now, from my own post and your response, I just thought of something that hadn't occurred to me. What if they do split the timeline, and you can move between them?
Hell, we already got Abeir.... whats another sister-world?
I've already suggested turning FR into a meta-setting, so what wrong with adding another setting-book for the 'Dark Future' alternate Toril? It could work.
Or say we have been on Abeir this whole time (4e)....
Now, THIS is gold... have you read my post in Paul Kemp's scroll? Because what I wrote there (behind the spoiler tags) could very well be used as a mechanism to accomplish that. Now I really hope the powers-that-be are paying attention...
Edit: And I agree with your first point, in many ways on both counts. If we do see a reset, as I've said many times, I don't want it to be any earlier than the end of 3E, to set up the split timelines. The new edition wants to be inclusive, and I applaud that goal, and I really think that the timeline split (Spellplague / no Spellplague) is the best way to satisfy a maximum number of fans. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 01 Feb 2012 04:08:37 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 05:07:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Hmmmm... like usual, I seem to have lost my point inside a bunch of random gibberish (my gibberish).
My point is that if they reset the clock to before the Spellplague (pick any date), and don't even talk about the Spellplague at all, will that still offend people?
Because them ignoring it before 1385DR does NOT invalidate the Spellplague at all. We have to be prepared for that possibility.
If they do precisely that - not even talk about the Spellplague one way or the other - its a great way to keep the 4e fans happy (because one could assume its still intact) and also keep the pre-plague fans happy.
But would that really make YOU happy, Therise, if they took no official stand on it one way or the other? Do they have to actually admonish/abolish 4e's existence for people to buy pre-plague material?
Their exact wording thus far has been "We plan to support all editions in 5e". That implies 4e lore remains in-place, weather they cater to the 4e crowd or not.
I guess what I'm driving at is, will it take hurting the 4e fans to make some of the folks around here happy? Will it really make a difference if they take no official stance on the Spellplague?
I, personally, don't see how splitting into two settings, one of which has the Spellplague and one of which doesn't, hurts the fans of either. And yes, for me, if we were given an alternate canon, splitting off some point before the Spellplague, I would be happy. If other people want the post-Spellplague Realms, it doesn't affect me in the slightest, so long as I have a Realms where that event is not in the past nor in the future. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 06:19:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Hmmmm... like usual, I seem to have lost my point inside a bunch of random gibberish (my gibberish).
My point is that if they reset the clock to before the Spellplague (pick any date), and don't even talk about the Spellplague at all, will that still offend people?
Because them ignoring it before 1385DR does NOT invalidate the Spellplague at all. We have to be prepared for that possibility.
If they do precisely that - not even talk about the Spellplague one way or the other - its a great way to keep the 4e fans happy (because one could assume its still intact) and also keep the pre-plague fans happy.
But would that really make YOU happy, Therise, if they took no official stand on it one way or the other? Do they have to actually admonish/abolish 4e's existence for people to buy pre-plague material?
Their exact wording thus far has been "We plan to support all editions in 5e". That implies 4e lore remains in-place, weather they cater to the 4e crowd or not.
I guess what I'm driving at is, will it take hurting the 4e fans to make some of the folks around here happy? Will it really make a difference if they take no official stance on the Spellplague?
Why exactly should I be so worried about the 4E superfans, when it's my money that's involved here? Are they advocating for my feelings, such that they'd be just as happy to see 4E Realms minimized or revoked? Why are "we" (and by "we" here, I mean people who don't like 4E but somehow have decided that other peoples' feelings are more important than their own) advocating for the 4E superfans to keep exactly what they have right now? Are they being asked to bend, or "go halfway" in any sense of the word? Have you been served the Kool-Aid?
If they "reset the clock" to some earlier state, which I don't think we can say they will, everything in the (IMO) offensive 4E future is still there. How is this any different than what I have right now? Resetting the clock to some early point and saying nothing about 4E means that it's still there. So no. Sorry, but 4E Realms superfans (if they exist beyond the designers) can pretty much suck it in my book.
This whole new-agey "ooh, protect their feelings, we have to be a unified world of love and acceptance" really grates on my last nerve. What makes you think that "toning down" or "fixing" anything will keep them happy? In fact, it probably won't. They like 4E Realms for what it is right now, so will they be happy with lots of watering down of the crazy?
What if you get "fixes" and all that, and it ends up appealing to neither side? What then? IMO, you're truly screwed in that case.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 06:43:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I, personally, don't see how splitting into two settings, one of which has the Spellplague and one of which doesn't, hurts the fans of either.
I don't see it happening.
I'm more inclined to think that with the 5e Realmslore, we'll only see the Spellplague more firmly embedded in the Realms firmament. Though I suspect it won't be the defining element of the new material.
Much like prior events that have shaped a particular edition -- such as the Time of Troubles in 2e, the return of the Shade Enclave and Lolth's Silence in 3e [among many other RSEs] -- I suspect the Spellplague will be rendered down to a historical "footnote" which provides those working on 5e Realmslore, the opportunity to further distance themselves from what has come before. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 07:46:30
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Therise makes a great point. Really, being diplomatic aside, why should fans of the pre-Plague Realms care what the post-Spellplague fans think?
I don't recall at any time the vocal anti-Realms people calling for the changes being anywhere as understanding or compromising. People were screaming for blood, a great culling of the pantheon, torturing the NPCs into sadistic demises, everything spiteful leveled against the setting. WotC heard them and carrying out the changes in just the sort of explosive and destructive method they demanded.
There were Realms fans with specific issues against the setting, but they work around them or with them. Fans discussed those issues and a good portion of activity on these and the official FR forums involved such useful dialogue. They will likely adapt once again, more easily than not.
Looking at the two versions, which has more relevant history (both in game and as a game setting), which built the setting into the flagship setting, which has decades of direct support immediately backing it.
Why should it be Pre-Plague fans making the adjustment for the Spellplague and not the Spellplague fans using that bludgeon to implement the changes they want.
This is getting back to the topic. The Spellplagued Realms is designed to function on as little lore as possible. That is in part the appeal, THE appeal even, a lore-lite, quick-start version. It should not receive any detailed treatment. The more minimal the better as made absolutely clear by the intents of the Spellplagued Realms designers and by the well vocalized desires of the fans of that version.
The best route really should be move the Realms back to whatever time WotC deems appropriate to drop the ill-conceived Spellplague gimmick, be it the 1370s or all the way to the Old Grey Box. Do what they will for the reboot/reimagining to get the Realms to a state acceptable to most of the old and some of the new audience, what the 4E Realms should have been all this time.
What of the Spellplagued Realms timeline? Do what L5R did with A Thousand Years of Darkness promotional (emphasis on promotional), which was an alternate timeline where the setting’s dark god won. This will be one book, a combination of the setting and player book, stripped of overlapping information regarding the Spellplagued Realms. Also, strip out most mechanics, just use generic points-of-light core mechanics or main line FR mechanics. This single shot deal is the exact prescription the Spellplague camp claimed the Realms absolutely needed. If they wished, they can augment their version by extrapolating the future of the main FR line or just adapt existing lore directly. This 5E Spellplagued Realms book will be concise and to the point.
I don’t think most Spellplagued Realms players, GMs, or fans are much invested in the setting. Those who are probably came over from the Pre-Plague days or never had much aversion to the Realms. For example, would the Spellplague fans care who came first in Cormyr’s lineage? It’s all just names and Roman numerals to them, no? Azoun IV is Azoun V is King Bob XLII. Those who care would adapt and use the lore accordingly. Those who don’t, won’t, ever, absolutely positively never ever ever. They have made such abundantly clear and still do on the Wizard forums. This is all they ever want from the Realms if they even wanted the Realms at all and weren't just huffing noise. Apologies for any potential offense, that’s just how it seemed to me.
Possibly expand this book with additional options to play up the ‘Mirror Universe’ concept. Want a campaign where Mystra and the Chosen are actually evil and Shar and the Princes of Shade are the good guys, here’s the basis for a campaign. What Volo to be King of Cormyr, here’s a few pages on how that might turn out. Then the book may become an interesting “What if?” other Realms fans might take a look into.
Everyone gets what they want, that is to say Pre-plague fans get the Realms back and the Spellplague fans gets a version they want to the level of detail they want.
Win-win for Wizards. |
Edited by - Dark Wizard on 01 Feb 2012 07:51:58 |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 07:50:55
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| Double post |
Edited by - Dark Wizard on 01 Feb 2012 07:51:45 |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 07:51:28
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| Double post snafu. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 08:47:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
Therise makes a great point. Really, being diplomatic aside, why should fans of the pre-Plague Realms care what the post-Spellplague fans think?
I don't recall at any time the vocal anti-Realms people calling for the changes being anywhere as understanding or compromising. People were screaming for blood, a great culling of the pantheon, torturing the NPCs into sadistic demises, everything spiteful leveled against the setting. WotC heard them and carrying out the changes in just the sort of explosive and destructive method they demanded.
Yep; I've talked about this elsewhere, in one of my (several) posts advocating for a timeline split. And the fact that we're back here, speculating on a new edition, barely more than three years after those changes, tells me that the Kool-Aid alchemy check was botched. The people WotC listened to probably still dislike the Realms, and I suspect they won't be truly satisfied until the setting is no longer supported by WotC. Meanwhile, those of us who supported the old Realms got handed our pink slips and then told, "oh, but you'll like this just as much, because it's still called the Forgotten Realms." Right. We were given swords and told to beat them into plowshares with our foreheads.
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
There were Realms fans with specific issues against the setting, but they work around them or with them. Fans discussed those issues and a good portion of activity on these and the official FR forums involved such useful dialogue. They will likely adapt once again, more easily than not.
Looking at the two versions, which has more relevant history (both in game and as a game setting), which built the setting into the flagship setting, which has decades of direct support immediately backing it.
Why should it be Pre-Plague fans making the adjustment for the Spellplague and not the Spellplague fans using that bludgeon to implement the changes they want.
I agree... the Spellplague should have been the optional element; it's a lot easier to destroy than to create, as the tagline of one of our WotC authors here says. If you don't want Ed's Realms, here's the way to give you something different.
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
This is getting back to the topic. The Spellplagued Realms is designed to function on as little lore as possible. That is in part the appeal, THE appeal even, a lore-lite, quick-start version. It should not receive any detailed treatment. The more minimal the better as made absolutely clear by the intents of the Spellplagued Realms designers and by the well vocalized desires of the fans of that version.
Again, I agree. If you like Ed's Realms, here's the level of detail you want (1E-3.5). If you don't like some details, then don't use them; that doesn't mean you get to claim that nobody should have that level of detail (the logic that led to the Spellplague).
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
The best route really should be move the Realms back to whatever time WotC deems appropriate to drop the ill-conceived Spellplague gimmick, be it the 1370s or all the way to the Old Grey Box. Do what they will for the reboot/reimagining to get the Realms to a state acceptable to most of the old and some of the new audience, what the 4E Realms should have been all this time.
I like the 1370s somewhere, preferably before Halaster's demise... although I'm curious to see the next volume of Ed's Elminster saga before I get too set on something happening. It may be that Ed has a reset switch for the reset switch already in the works...
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
What of the Spellplagued Realms timeline? Do what L5R did with A Thousand Years of Darkness promotional (emphasis on promotional), which was an alternate timeline where the setting’s dark god won. This will be one book, a combination of the setting and player book, stripped of overlapping information regarding the Spellplagued Realms. Also, strip out most mechanics, just use generic points-of-light core mechanics or main line FR mechanics. This single shot deal is the exact prescription the Spellplague camp claimed the Realms absolutely needed. If they wished, they can augment their version by extrapolating the future of the main FR line or just adapt existing lore directly. This 5E Spellplagued Realms book will be concise and to the point.
I don’t think most Spellplagued Realms players, GMs, or fans are much invested in the setting. Those who are probably came over from the Pre-Plague days or never had much aversion to the Realms. For example, would the Spellplague fans care who came first in Cormyr’s lineage? It’s all just names and Roman numerals to them, no? Azoun IV is Azoun V is King Bob XLII. Those who care would adapt and use the lore accordingly. Those who don’t, won’t, ever, absolutely positively never ever ever. They have made such abundantly clear and still do on the Wizard forums. This is all they ever want from the Realms if they even wanted the Realms at all and weren't just huffing noise. Apologies for any potential offense, that’s just how it seemed to me.
Possibly expand this book with additional options to play up the ‘Mirror Universe’ concept. Want a campaign where Mystra and the Chosen are actually evil and Shar and the Princes of Shade are the good guys, here’s the basis for a campaign. What Volo to be King of Cormyr, here’s a few pages on how that might turn out. Then the book may become an interesting “What if?” other Realms fans might take a look into.
Everyone gets what they want, that is to say Pre-plague fans get the Realms back and the Spellplague fans gets a version they want to the level of detail they want.
Win-win for Wizards.
I agree... not to mention win-win for the fans of both sides. Of course, the way the WotC boards were reacting to the initial announcement of the 4E Realms, a certain group of Spellplague "fans" will still be ticked off because others (meaning us) get back the Realms we want. I hope I'm proven wrong on this, but I won't hold my breath. I want an official announcement from WotC on what the 5E Realms will be, and I want it sooner rather than later. I expect it won't happen for another year yet, because they want to see how the "Ed's Realms" book does. If we do our part, and sales for it blow other 4E titles out of the water, I expect we'll get a Spellplague rollback or timeline split. Otherwise, I think we'll get just what The Sage is predicting: another timeline advance to make the Spellplague a thing of the past (and beyond retcon without a complete setting reboot). If that happens, I probably won't buy into the 5E Realms, regardless of how good the 5E core rules are. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 01 Feb 2012 08:49:06 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 14:50:47
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First off, I HATE posting in this beligerant, quote-by-quote style, so do not take this personally. You bring up some very good points, and its just easier for me to do things this way, but the arguments I bring to the table are aimed at the entire fanbase (including some of our 'wayward' scribes who just want to come home).
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Why exactly should I be so worried about the 4E superfans, when it's my money that's involved here? Are they advocating for my feelings, such that they'd be just as happy to see 4E Realms minimized or revoked? Why are "we" (and by "we" here, I mean people who don't like 4E but somehow have decided that other peoples' feelings are more important than their own) advocating for the 4E superfans to keep exactly what they have right now? Are they being asked to bend, or "go halfway" in any sense of the word? Have you been served the Kool-Aid?
No. What I understand is that you don't put out fires by throwing gasoline on them.
I have no love for the 4e fans. Truth be told, I have no love for most folks, but what I do love is the Realms. I understand religion is a taboo topic, but in all seriousness, read the story about 'the 'Wisdom of Solomon'. The 'bad mother' wanted to see the child cut in half.
My point being, splitting the fanbase further spells certain doom for FR (IMO), and I'd rather "just let it go" then see it die.
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
If they "reset the clock" to some earlier state, which I don't think we can say they will, everything in the (IMO) offensive 4E future is still there. How is this any different than what I have right now? Resetting the clock to some early point and saying nothing about 4E means that it's still there. So no. Sorry, but 4E Realms superfans (if they exist beyond the designers) can pretty much suck it in my book.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I, personally, don't see how splitting into two settings, one of which has the Spellplague and one of which doesn't, hurts the fans of either. And yes, for me, if we were given an alternate canon, splitting off some point before the Spellplague, I would be happy. If other people want the post-Spellplague Realms, it doesn't affect me in the slightest, so long as I have a Realms where that event is not in the past nor in the future.
And how is splitting 4e off into an alternate timeline any different?
What starting date for the 5e Realms would everyone suggest? You see, here's the REAL problem - unless they completely abolish 4e - say "it never happened" - then its still there. OUR Realms, pre-plague - still has Abeir floating around invisible inside the Crystal Sphere, does it not? You erase nothing by splitting the timeline, unless you split it WAY back, before 1e/2e/3e. Ed's Realms didn't have Abeir, or Primordials, but our Realms do NOW, no matter how we slice it. The only 'fix' for that - being able to truly say there are two completely separate timelines is to have the non-Spellplague timeline also start in 1479 DR, and who the hell is going to be a fan of that? Its not just an alternate timeline - its a different century!
Simply resetting the clock and saying the Plagued Realms are a 'possible Dark Future' doesn't alleviate anything, because the 4e lore retroactively change everything (especially the cosmology). We either compromise, or we do what Therise and others want and just say "it was all just a terrible dream - Elminster ate a bad burrito". The 'alternate timeline' just does not work (because of the massive retcons 4e made).
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
This whole new-agey "ooh, protect their feelings, we have to be a unified world of love and acceptance" really grates on my last nerve. What makes you think that "toning down" or "fixing" anything will keep them happy? In fact, it probably won't. They like 4E Realms for what it is right now, so will they be happy with lots of watering down of the crazy?
You don't know me very well. Usually I'm of the "Kill them all and let god sort them out" school of thought. I remember quite well what all the 'new fans' were saying - that they were glad our Realms got wiped so it was easier for them to play and understand. You think I don't? I also remember some of my come-backs - "reading am hard... me just want to smash stuff". Thats was me just a couple months ago. Then life smacked the crap out of me and I got some much-needed perspective.
Therise, there is nothing I would love more then to see them do the "it was all just a bad dream", but I don't think thats whats best for the Realms. How I feel about the 4e Realms fans and WotC has nothing to do with this; that would be like treating my neighbor's kids like crap because I don't like my neighbors. The kids are just innocent victims (and FR is the 'kid' in this analogy). I don't even think it was 'bad design' (although that had a LOT to do with it), I think most of my hostility comes from a belief that someone had an 'agenda' (which I can't prove, but feel very strongly in my heart).
But I can separate my feelings about certain WotC employees from my desire to see FR become a healthy, profitable (because its so damn GOOD!) property again, no matter who owns it.
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
What if you get "fixes" and all that, and it ends up appealing to neither side? What then? IMO, you're truly screwed in that case.
Is there a chance they can totally screw this up? You betcha! I had high hopes for 4e as well (although it did start off with negative feelings -the 'surprise announcement' after all the denials for years), and look how that turned out.
But I think, if done right, it could be amazing. It has so much potential to bounce-back even stronger. Sure, its going to be incredibly hard to get it just right (I'm thinking like triple-bypass open heart surgery hard), but thus far everything they have said and done has lead me to believe they WILL get it right this time.
One last question for the 'no chocolate in my peanut-butter!" crowd - what if the new Elminster's Realms books are aimed at you? Would that make you happy? Instead of sticking the 4e fans off in a corner, they stick us guys off in a corner (but still cater to us with on-going products)... would that be fair? Or would that still not be 'good enough'?
Because, quite frankly, I think the mainstream Realms will still have the 4e Realms looming in front of us, regardless. I think this new product line - the 'Ed greenwood presents..' is aimed squarely at the "I love the OGB and everything else is garbage!" crowd. If that is their plan - to create a divergent Realms based upon Ed's own campaign, then I will be one of the people buying those products. No ToT, No Shades, no Spellplague... just pure Edwardian goodness.
Would that make everyone happy? The main (published) Realms continue on its path, and the rest of us gets never-ending OGB-style lore?
And DMs can cherry-pick what they want from both, as they always have. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 18:12:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
First off, I HATE posting in this beligerant, quote-by-quote style, so do not take this personally. You bring up some very good points, and its just easier for me to do things this way, but the arguments I bring to the table are aimed at the entire fanbase (including some of our 'wayward' scribes who just want to come home).
No. What I understand is that you don't put out fires by throwing gasoline on them.
I have no love for the 4e fans. Truth be told, I have no love for most folks, but what I do love is the Realms. I understand religion is a taboo topic, but in all seriousness, read the story about 'the 'Wisdom of Solomon'. The 'bad mother' wanted to see the child cut in half.
My point being, splitting the fanbase further spells certain doom for FR (IMO), and I'd rather "just let it go" then see it die.
Okay, good grief. You've just cast me in the role of the bad mother. Did you not realize this? Perhaps that wasn't your intent, but that's how this totally came across. When you draw comparisons and make references to literary figures, you need to be aware of how you're making associations.
I don't particularly feel like eviscerating you or anyone else this morning, partly because I don't even think you realize that you made this forced comparison. So I'll take you at your word and believe that you didn't intend it.
I will ask you, though: for you, how is the Realms still the Realms if it has this 4E stuff you completely hate? Do you use the 4E Realms, even though you hate it? What's the point of accepting lore from an entire edition that you firmly dislike? How can you still say to yourself, "this is still my Realms"?
I can't, and that's where we differ.
quote:
And how is splitting 4e off into an alternate timeline any different?
What starting date for the 5e Realms would everyone suggest? You see, here's the REAL problem - unless they completely abolish 4e - say "it never happened" - then its still there. OUR Realms, pre-plague - still has Abeir floating around invisible inside the Crystal Sphere, does it not? You erase nothing by splitting the timeline, unless you split it WAY back, before 1e/2e/3e. Ed's Realms didn't have Abeir, or Primordials, but our Realms do NOW, no matter how we slice it. The only 'fix' for that - being able to truly say there are two completely separate timelines is to have the non-Spellplague timeline also start in 1479 DR, and who the hell is going to be a fan of that? Its not just an alternate timeline - its a different century!
Well, I don't know about others, but a simple timeline break would not cut it for me. Because you're right: if it's just a simple timeline split, all the (IMO) garbage lore about Primordials, Abeir, and "if Mystra gets killed, spellplague can happen" is still there. I accept none of that junk, because part of the 4E "lore" seriously alters the way we look at history, cosmology, even the gods. It does this through retcons and "reveals" that are intimately tied to 4E but also go backward in terms of explaining things. I want no part of that crap. I want it GONE, redacted, completely expunged. And yes, you're right that it would require going back much further than 1375.
That's why I've been advocating a complete reboot to the OGB, with the intent of saying "a million alternate quantum realities diverge from this point." What one takes to be "real cosmology" or "real history" (as revealed in some later edition) may or may not be true for that DM's Realms. With a reboot to the OGB, in all ways, it allows for the most creativity and the most "sampling" of possible future lore... or total divergence from that lore. I don't want to be restricted by 4E lore that is forced on me, but I also don't want to be restricted by the ToT or a "necessary" period of wild magic during the 2E-3E period.
quote:
Simply resetting the clock and saying the Plagued Realms are a 'possible Dark Future' doesn't alleviate anything, because the 4e lore retroactively change everything (especially the cosmology). We either compromise, or we do what Therise and others want and just say "it was all just a terrible dream - Elminster ate a bad burrito". The 'alternate timeline' just does not work (because of the massive retcons 4e made).
Well, yes and no. I'm not advocating for a simple timeline split. More than that, I want truly divergent alternate realities, where even the 3E "facts" about cosmology might not be true.
Compromise is what people do when they're in real life and have no ability or method to avoid specific consequences. And when pragmatists decide to compromise, people on both sides lose out. By accepting and continuing with the 4E Realms, even if it's "lightened up", it isn't compromise. It's giving in to the side that made radical and unpopular changes to serve a group of haters. They gain everything they want, they get to keep everything. I'm the only party making a "compromise"... but really, since they totally win and I give up, it's more like admitting defeat.
This however, is fantasy. Anything, really, can be done. Are the designers ballsy enough to dump 4E? They could, but I doubt they will. This whole thing about "we will support all editions of the Realms, it's up to players" is just more writing on the wall to me. I have no sense at all from their statement that they're intending to lighten up the 4E Realms much less redact or expunge any of it. And in so doing, they are fully supporting 4E Realms. So my hope for a return to better days is minimal. I'm fully expecting that they will give me almost nothing that I want in terms of returning to the golden age of the Realms.
quote:
You don't know me very well. Usually I'm of the "Kill them all and let god sort them out" school of thought. I remember quite well what all the 'new fans' were saying - that they were glad our Realms got wiped so it was easier for them to play and understand. You think I don't? I also remember some of my come-backs - "reading am hard... me just want to smash stuff". Thats was me just a couple months ago. Then life smacked the crap out of me and I got some much-needed perspective.
Therise, there is nothing I would love more then to see them do the "it was all just a bad dream", but I don't think thats whats best for the Realms. How I feel about the 4e Realms fans and WotC has nothing to do with this; that would be like treating my neighbor's kids like crap because I don't like my neighbors. The kids are just innocent victims (and FR is the 'kid' in this analogy). I don't even think it was 'bad design' (although that had a LOT to do with it), I think most of my hostility comes from a belief that someone had an 'agenda' (which I can't prove, but feel very strongly in my heart).
Honestly, I'm well past all the anger and hostility of 3 years ago. What's important to me now is whether or not they will do the same exact thing to us, again, or if they will actually attempt to make repairs. I see no evidence (yet) of repairs. I do see a statement where they're essentially supporting 4E Realms in FULL. And that just means that -this- design team is making the same choice as the 4E design team.
quote:
But I can separate my feelings about certain WotC employees from my desire to see FR become a healthy, profitable (because its so damn GOOD!) property again, no matter who owns it.
We can make all the wishlists in the world, we can hope for change that it goes back to being really good (whether through repairs or a redaction). But the most likely thing we will see is that no change to 4E will be made at all. I fully expect that it will be kept just as it is, and that's a shame. I have no real reason, in such a case, to actually make a purchase. And if they're trying to lure me (and others) back as a customer, what's the draw for me? Seriously, what would compel me to buy a Realms where 4E exists in full, but I'm just playing in some earlier time period?
I can do that right now, with what I have. So what's the carrot? Nostalgia is no longer enough for me. I want results, in a direction that I like.
quote:
Is there a chance they can totally screw this up? You betcha! I had high hopes for 4e as well (although it did start off with negative feelings -the 'surprise announcement' after all the denials for years), and look how that turned out.
But I think, if done right, it could be amazing. It has so much potential to bounce-back even stronger. Sure, its going to be incredibly hard to get it just right (I'm thinking like triple-bypass open heart surgery hard), but thus far everything they have said and done has lead me to believe they WILL get it right this time.
I think you need to distance yourself from your hopes and wishes for at least 5 minutes and really take a HARD and serious look at what they're most likely to do. You're hoping for new lore that will tone down 4E craziness, new lore that will do away with (or explain) some things that "need" to be explained, and you're hoping for a huge number of supplements. But I will bet you a chocolate doughnut that 4E isn't changed at all, based on their comments so far. You might get some totally new lore, some in the past, but all that (IMO) wretched 4E lore, retconning, and cosmology-changing stuff will remain along with spellscars and earthmotes, etc.
quote:
One last question for the 'no chocolate in my peanut-butter!" crowd - what if the new Elminster's Realms books are aimed at you? Would that make you happy? Instead of sticking the 4e fans off in a corner, they stick us guys off in a corner (but still cater to us with on-going products)... would that be fair? Or would that still not be 'good enough'?
They might be aimed at me, I don't know. I only know one thing: I will have to see it, read it, and decide then if I like it enough to buy it. It -sounds- like it might be an alternate reality Realms, but you never know. The editing team could make it fully compatible with 4E Realms, in which case I wouldn't buy it.
quote:
Because, quite frankly, I think the mainstream Realms will still have the 4e Realms looming in front of us, regardless. I think this new product line - the 'Ed greenwood presents..' is aimed squarely at the "I love the OGB and everything else is garbage!" crowd. If that is their plan - to create a divergent Realms based upon Ed's own campaign, then I will be one of the people buying those products. No ToT, No Shades, no Spellplague... just pure Edwardian goodness.
Would that make everyone happy? The main (published) Realms continue on its path, and the rest of us gets never-ending OGB-style lore?
Certainly a lot of speculation going on here. Ed's Realms are said to have diverged from the published Realms, but we don't know how, in what ways, or how much.
I suspect it's a test item, to see how many people of the "old era" they can lure back. But I have no illusions, really, about them making any changes to the 4E Realms.
Markus, I think you should probably stop looking for ways to make everyone happy. It's just not possible.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 18:31:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I, personally, don't see how splitting into two settings, one of which has the Spellplague and one of which doesn't, hurts the fans of either. And yes, for me, if we were given an alternate canon, splitting off some point before the Spellplague, I would be happy. If other people want the post-Spellplague Realms, it doesn't affect me in the slightest, so long as I have a Realms where that event is not in the past nor in the future.
And how is splitting 4e off into an alternate timeline any different?
What starting date for the 5e Realms would everyone suggest? You see, here's the REAL problem - unless they completely abolish 4e - say "it never happened" - then its still there. OUR Realms, pre-plague - still has Abeir floating around invisible inside the Crystal Sphere, does it not? You erase nothing by splitting the timeline, unless you split it WAY back, before 1e/2e/3e. Ed's Realms didn't have Abeir, or Primordials, but our Realms do NOW, no matter how we slice it. The only 'fix' for that - being able to truly say there are two completely separate timelines is to have the non-Spellplague timeline also start in 1479 DR, and who the hell is going to be a fan of that? Its not just an alternate timeline - its a different century!
Simply resetting the clock and saying the Plagued Realms are a 'possible Dark Future' doesn't alleviate anything, because the 4e lore retroactively change everything (especially the cosmology). We either compromise, or we do what Therise and others want and just say "it was all just a terrible dream - Elminster ate a bad burrito". The 'alternate timeline' just does not work (because of the massive retcons 4e made).
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying to call the post-Spellplague Realms one setting, and have another Realms where the Spellplague did not happen. The fans of the 4E Realms get their setting, and those who dislike it have the "Classic Realms," which goes in a different direction when it gets to that point. In other words, parallel worlds that are not related, other than having a common origin. Let the 4E Realms have the retconned history, and let the "Classic Realms" keep its pre-4E history. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 18:44:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
Therise makes a great point. Really, being diplomatic aside, why should fans of the pre-Plague Realms care what the post-Spellplague fans think?
I don't recall at any time the vocal anti-Realms people calling for the changes being anywhere as understanding or compromising. People were screaming for blood, a great culling of the pantheon, torturing the NPCs into sadistic demises, everything spiteful leveled against the setting. WotC heard them and carrying out the changes in just the sort of explosive and destructive method they demanded.
Exactly. It's not like they are emotionally sensitive and care about bringing me back. I've yet to see a single post from a 4E superfan that advocates even in teeny tiny ways for my interests.
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There were Realms fans with specific issues against the setting, but they work around them or with them. Fans discussed those issues and a good portion of activity on these and the official FR forums involved such useful dialogue. They will likely adapt once again, more easily than not.
I was actually one of those Realms fans who thought some really specific fixes needed to be made at the end of the 3.5E era. Among other things, we were advocating for some changes that were fairly major, like fixing Mystra so that she wasn't front and center and had the impression of being almost an overgod. We wanted changes here and there, but nothing at all on the level of the Spellplague/Abeir/Timejump. I even remember a number of elegant, detailed fixes that people had suggested, which would've greatly improved the Realms but wouldn't feel like RSEs. What we got instead... well, we all know. They really didn't listen to the actual fans, they listened to the haters. Even experienced designers over at Paizo recognized this error: I clearly recall James Jacobs saying this as he reflected on it.
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Looking at the two versions, which has more relevant history (both in game and as a game setting), which built the setting into the flagship setting, which has decades of direct support immediately backing it.
Why should it be Pre-Plague fans making the adjustment for the Spellplague and not the Spellplague fans using that bludgeon to implement the changes they want.
My point exactly.
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This is getting back to the topic. The Spellplagued Realms is designed to function on as little lore as possible. That is in part the appeal, THE appeal even, a lore-lite, quick-start version. It should not receive any detailed treatment. The more minimal the better as made absolutely clear by the intents of the Spellplagued Realms designers and by the well vocalized desires of the fans of that version.
Exactly. They obtained what they wanted. Adding more lore to 4E is actually -against- what they argued for and wanted, so why continue with the 4E fluff? They wanted minimal lore, they passionately argued for a bare-bones setting with no ties to history or future "required" lore. So it would make more sense to completely cut 4E Realms entirely loose and let it be what it was meant to be: a separate setting, similar in a few names only. Keep adding new novels to it, adding more lore to it, and as a DM you need to start memorizing and remembering all the new lore. Keep adding to 4E canon, and eventually those 4E superfans will turn away from it - for the same reasons they didn't like the old, rich Realms and its lore.
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The best route really should be move the Realms back to whatever time WotC deems appropriate to drop the ill-conceived Spellplague gimmick, be it the 1370s or all the way to the Old Grey Box. Do what they will for the reboot/reimagining to get the Realms to a state acceptable to most of the old and some of the new audience, what the 4E Realms should have been all this time.
Thumbs up to this. But I seriously doubt they'll do it, based on what they've said. I think this group of designers will keep 4E intact, making the same exact mistake as the 4E design team. And that's the real shame, here.
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What of the Spellplagued Realms timeline? Do what L5R did with A Thousand Years of Darkness promotional (emphasis on promotional), which was an alternate timeline where the setting’s dark god won. This will be one book, a combination of the setting and player book, stripped of overlapping information regarding the Spellplagued Realms. Also, strip out most mechanics, just use generic points-of-light core mechanics or main line FR mechanics. This single shot deal is the exact prescription the Spellplague camp claimed the Realms absolutely needed. If they wished, they can augment their version by extrapolating the future of the main FR line or just adapt existing lore directly. This 5E Spellplagued Realms book will be concise and to the point.
Yep, a completely alternate reality for the 4E stuff. Then let that single-shot stay as a totally separate deal. They wanted a static, post-apocalypse setting, let them have it. That way, they get what they want, and it doesn't poison my Realms.
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I don’t think most Spellplagued Realms players, GMs, or fans are much invested in the setting. Those who are probably came over from the Pre-Plague days or never had much aversion to the Realms. For example, would the Spellplague fans care who came first in Cormyr’s lineage? It’s all just names and Roman numerals to them, no? Azoun IV is Azoun V is King Bob XLII. Those who care would adapt and use the lore accordingly. Those who don’t, won’t, ever, absolutely positively never ever ever. They have made such abundantly clear and still do on the Wizard forums. This is all they ever want from the Realms if they even wanted the Realms at all and weren't just huffing noise. Apologies for any potential offense, that’s just how it seemed to me.
Completely agree.
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Possibly expand this book with additional options to play up the ‘Mirror Universe’ concept. Want a campaign where Mystra and the Chosen are actually evil and Shar and the Princes of Shade are the good guys, here’s the basis for a campaign. What Volo to be King of Cormyr, here’s a few pages on how that might turn out. Then the book may become an interesting “What if?” other Realms fans might take a look into.
Show DMs how they can create variant mirror-universes. Multiple quantum realities might even be "crossover" adventure material. Imagine that, an epic adventure tour through multiple shadow worlds, something akin to the old Zelazny Princes in Amber... one core reality, which no one has probably ever seen, and an uncounted number of variant shadow worlds.
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Everyone gets what they want, that is to say Pre-plague fans get the Realms back and the Spellplague fans gets a version they want to the level of detail they want.
Win-win for Wizards.
It would be win-win. But sadly, I don't think they have the chops to do it.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 19:06:53
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Okay. I understand better now. I wasn't getting precisely what was meant by 'alternate'.
Not a Back-to-the-Future altered/split/divergent timeline, but rather, a Sliders type alternate reality entirely.
I'm glad I was able to get my point across as well. Rebooting to 1e/2e/3e wouldn't change the 4e lore that was retro-active (Abeir, out there 'somewhere', etc). You could say Cyric didn't deliver the killing blow and the Weave still stands... but we'd still have primordials.
And Therise, I'm enough of a realist to know you can't make 100% of the people happy 100% of the time, but I know (from business) that there is a 'sweet spot' - If you can keep 75-80% of the people happy 75-80% of the time, you will keep them as customers. No-one expects perfection. As good as the OGB was, I can still find fault with it (not much, 'tis true). hell, I think the greatest number of complaints I saw in the published realms (pre-4e) was in 3rd edition - it seems like people only liked about 60-75% of what was going on, and yet it is considered a 'success' (people still bought it, despite the complaints).
I didn't mean you were a 'bad mother' (I don't even know you!) - I was just saying that cutting the baby in half (FR) would make me feel like we were being the bad mother - that we would rather see FR die, then allow any sort of compromise.
And I do have very high hopes about the new 'Ed' product line (which it WILL turn into, if it is good). I think, for many of us, it will be like our fondest wishes come true, and The Forgotten Realms will have a Renaissance - a rebirth - because it is strong enough to have weathered the storm.
Goodby Bloodstone Lands and 'Karate Bob' (Kane), Seeya later retro-fit cancelled British setting (Moonshaes), Helllooooo 'real Realms'!
And I will probably buy products from the mainstream line as well... because I can.
EDIT: I almost forgot (but was reminded after reading Therise's above post -
Where do novels go? I am talking pre-plague. Does anyone get to write in Ed's pristine playground (and F*** it all up again? Do we get any say in who should be allowed in?)
I can think of several authors I would love to see write in 'Eds Realms' (mostly the ones active here), and others I would like to see the door slammed in their face... but can they honestly do that? You know those authors that are 'shut out' will scream bloody murder. How will they keep all the 'poopy' from happening all over again?
Or will the "Ed Greenwood Presents.." line be setting-fluff (Volo-type Guides), without novels? (and BTW, they've already used that precursor title for 4e products, so there is already a problem before we even begin).
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Feb 2012 19:19:37 |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 19:23:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Why exactly should I be so worried about the 4E superfans, when it's my money that's involved here?
You shouldn't be concerned, it is your money and time. However, to some folks it makes you appear unreasonable and very self centered in the face of others actively advocating a strategy that at least tries to present an olive branch to the other side. It may not be the olive branch you want, but I believe the gesture should count for something.
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Are they advocating for my feelings, such that they'd be just as happy to see 4E Realms minimized or revoked?
I believe the general idea put forth by the pro 4E people on here has been to minimize certain aspects of the changes. What are they asking to have revoked? Is anyone saying "screw everything that came before. Don't talk about it ever again"? I haven't seen it. Most are saying "make more material for every part of the timeline". If they took the approach some are taking they would be saying "damn everything pre 4E, full speed ahead", which they are not.
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Why are "we" (and by "we" here, I mean people who don't like 4E but somehow have decided that other peoples' feelings are more important than their own) advocating for the 4E superfans to keep exactly what they have right now? Are they being asked to bend, or "go halfway" in any sense of the word? Have you been served the Kool-Aid?
Are they being asked? No. Are they making an offer to in some manner, even if it isn't the manner you are demanding? Yes they are.
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Sorry, but 4E Realms superfans (if they exist beyond the designers) can pretty much suck it in my book.
I think this sums up your point rather nicely and illustrates why this debate is a complete waste of time.
Edit to add: About this whole "reboot to the OGB" idea, what is stopping anyone from doing that right now? Aside from possibly not owning an OGB? |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
Edited by - Tyrant on 01 Feb 2012 19:36:23 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 19:47:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Okay. I understand better now. I wasn't getting precisely what was meant by 'alternate'.
Different people probably mean different things by alternate. You asked about my meaning, so that's that.
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Not a Back-to-the-Future altered/split/divergent timeline, but rather, a Sliders type alternate reality entirely.
Yes, more like Sliders. Or like that episode of Star Trek NextGen where Worf keeps jumping from quantum reality to quantum reality. One was a reality where the Borg took over the federation. The 4E Realms could be our Borg-dominated future variant, so to speak.
But yes, actually more like Sliders. Because with some of those variant realities, even physics could be different - not just history and choices.
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I'm glad I was able to get my point across as well. Rebooting to 1e/2e/3e wouldn't change the 4e lore that was retro-active (Abeir, out there 'somewhere', etc). You could say Cyric didn't deliver the killing blow and the Weave still stands... but we'd still have primordials.
Yeah, and IMO all that garbage retcon junk needs to go just as much as spellscar mutant powerz and earthmotes.
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And Therise, I'm enough of a realist to know you can't make 100% of the people happy 100% of the time, but I know (from business) that there is a 'sweet spot' - If you can keep 75-80% of the people happy 75-80% of the time, you will keep them as customers. No-one expects perfection. As good as the OGB was, I can still find fault with it (not much, 'tis true). hell, I think the greatest number of complaints I saw in the published realms (pre-4e) was in 3rd edition - it seems like people only liked about 60-75% of what was going on, and yet it is considered a 'success' (people still bought it, despite the complaints).
Keeping 75-80% of the people happy 75-80% of the time, you need a product that most agree upon as good. Here, I think the pre- vs post-Spellplague editions are too divergent, too different.
I remember a lot of the 3E complaining, but I also remember a lot of the 2E bellyaching. Neither of those, IMO was worse than the outcry against 4E. YMMV, of course.
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I didn't mean you were a 'bad mother' (I don't even know you!) - I was just saying that cutting the baby in half (FR) would make me feel like we were being the bad mother - that we would rather see FR die, then allow any sort of compromise.
And I do have very high hopes about the new 'Ed' product line (which it WILL turn into, if it is good). I think, for many of us, it will be like our fondest wishes come true, and The Forgotten Realms will have a Renaissance - a rebirth - because it is strong enough to have weathered the storm.
Goodby Bloodstone Lands and 'Karate Bob' (Kane), Seeya later retro-fit cancelled British setting (Moonshaes), Helllooooo 'real Realms'!
Perhaps. I'll wait and see.
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And I will probably buy products from the mainstream line as well... because I can.
Well, if they keep 4E intact as I assume they will, I probably will buy nothing. Retaining the mistake of 4E Realms will likely mean my leaving the Realms behind forever as a customer.
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EDIT: I almost forgot (but was reminded after reading Therise's above post -
Where do novels go? I am talking pre-plague. Does anyone get to write in Ed's pristine playground (and F*** it all up again? Do we get any say in who should be allowed in?)
I can think of several authors I would love to see write in 'Eds Realms' (mostly the ones active here), and others I would like to see the door slammed in their face... but can they honestly do that? You know those authors that are 'shut out' will scream bloody murder. How will they keep all the 'poopy' from happening all over again?
Or will the "Ed Greenwood Presents.." line be setting-fluff (Volo-type Guides), without novels? (and BTW, they've already used that precursor title for 4e products, so there is already a problem before we even begin).
I suspect that Ed's Realms (the book) will be a one-shot, and it will detail any novel events that he decided should go in his Realms. Some of his own novels (such as El must Die, etc.) may or may not fit into his Realms, which is something interesting to think about.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 20:03:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Ed's Realms are said to have diverged from the published Realms, but we don't know how, in what ways, or how much.
I bet we have lots to learn, but we know quite a bit about this already. New thread?quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I can think of several authors I would love to see write in 'Eds Realms' (mostly the ones active here), and others I would like to see the door slammed in their face... but can they honestly do that? You know those authors that are 'shut out' will scream bloody murder. How will they keep all the 'poopy' from happening all over again?
I can't think of any authors liable to mess it up who I think would particularly want to write there.quote:
Originally posted by Therise
I suspect that Ed's Realms (the book) will be a one-shot, and it will detail any novel events that he decided should go in his Realms. Some of his own novels (such as El must Die, etc.) may or may not fit into his Realms, which is something interesting to think about.
Ed's campaign is up to 1359 DR at the latest, his players having voted not to use the Avatar Crisis -- so never mind El Must Die, the Shadow of the Avatar books don't fit into Knights-campaign Faerûn. If Elminster's Forgotten Realms is based on his campaign notes it'll presumably focus on the time up to then, rather than a speculative later history. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 20:06:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
You shouldn't be concerned, it is your money and time. However, to some folks it makes you appear unreasonable and very self centered in the face of others actively advocating a strategy...
...I think this sums up your point rather nicely and illustrates why this debate is a complete waste of time.
Make no mistake, I am not debating anything. I'm just answering Markus's questions. Whether or not I "appear unreasonable and self-centered" when I'm merely stating my personal preferences is not something I can control. Nor do I want to begin playing that game. I can control how I present myself, not how I'm perceived. To try and control the latter is definitely a real waste of time.
Olive branches, such as they are, must appeal to the person to whom they're presented; otherwise, they are less than nothing.
Call me selfish if you like, Tyrant. I prefer to think of myself as self-oriented with respect to money spent on a game. A luxury item. Something that I don't need, if I buy it, should be exactly what I want and nothing else. To state that isn't being selfish, it's merely advocating one's preference. It reminds me of the old Cat-in-the-hat story of green eggs and ham: no matter how you marginally modify those green eggs and ham, I don't want them. The gigantic difference is that I've actually read and reviewed the 4E Realms: I tried those green eggs and ham, and I -still- don't want them in ANY way, shape or form.
Trying to continue to force them on me, which is what this current design team will do, means absolutely nothing has really changed. They're making the exact same mistake, worse actually, than the 4E Realms designers. So I either have to eat those green eggs and ham (which I have tried, and despise), or I can go elsewhere.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 01 Feb 2012 20:07:25 |
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Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 20:11:13
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| I would be happy enough if "Ed Greenwood Presents..." is just edition-less fluff (and I don't think WotC would be cruel enough to give Ed the chance to write something like this, but then make him write it about the Spellplagued mess of a setting that he had nothing to do with). |
Edited by - Eladrinstar on 01 Feb 2012 20:11:55 |
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What do you hope gets a detailed treatment?
