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Originally posted by Fellfire
I am liking this. I am going to have to read up on Diirinka and Diinkarazan. I would hear more of this, Mumadar.

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What i'm wondering about in Menzoberranzans 4e houses is the 'resurrection' that took place in house Faen Tlabbar. In 'Underdark' Vadalma Tlabbar had taken Ghenni'tiroth's place a matron mother, after the later was killed by the Oblodra during the ToT if i remember correctly. In 4e Ghenni is back as Matron. Well maybe the spellpalgue found Vadalmar boring a revived Ghenni

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

And we are not discussing real world religions, thank you.

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Originally posted by The Sage

In terms of the Earthmother/Chauntea merger/divide...

Earthmother was a completely separate deity from that of Chauntea, that is, until TSR cast a "mighty retcon" upon the six 'Moonshae' novels.

You have to take this into consideration, otherwise parts of the plot from the novels don't make as much sense without it -- mostly because Earthmother dies and Chauntea then assumes her position until Earthmother returns and forces Chauntea out from the druids that focused instead on Chauntea worship.

I'll note, also, that Brian James was never actually happy with that retcon, which is why he didn't acknowledge it in his "Moonshae" article [DRAGON #362]. In fact, he hinted pretty strongly that Earthmother may indeed be a fey goddess.

By not acknowledging the retcon, Brian seems to have re-established the singular Earthmother as a divine entity unto herself with regard to the Moonshaes.

I've speculated that perhaps this fey Earthmother is merely "a partial aspect of the Land" [the Moonshaes] with respect to Chauntea's overall placement as THE land overall.

The reference from the Ol' Gray Box being:- "Earthmother 'may or may not be an aspect of Chauntea' [Cyclopedia of the Realms, pg. 17], was expanded upon with Chauntea's entry in Faiths & Avatars, by suggesting that Earthmother was a more primitive aspect, a portion of Chauntea's essence, that was dedicated to directly overseeing the Moonshaes.

But with Brian's work in the aforementioned "Moonshae" article, as it stands now, Earthmother and Chauntea are largely separate entities once again.

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Originally posted by Diffan


As for Dwarf Wizards, I don't think it was really apart of Dwarven Lore in the Realms. Was there anything specific in a Realms book that stated that Dwarves couldn't cast arcane magic or was that assumed during the time due to D&D rules? Because the way I look at it, if there isn't a "Realms-specific" reason why something can't happen, then I believe it can or at least has the option of happening. But my lore and info on 2E/AD&D material is pretty hazy.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
<snipped>We also have the dwarven myth from the WotC site that says the dwarves were specifically Denied the ability to even see the Nether Scrolls, and that this was done by the dwarven gods.

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Originally posted by Mumadar Ibn Huzal

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
<snipped>We also have the dwarven myth from the WotC site that says the dwarves were specifically Denied the ability to even see the Nether Scrolls, and that this was done by the dwarven gods.

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Which is exactly what I'm trying to use with my idea regarding Diirinka. After the mad god's betrayal, not only was it frowned upon by other dwarves (due to the link with a banished deity), also the other faiths (with maybe exception those of Laduguer and Dumathoin) made it dogmatic and therefore arcane magic was - for all means and purposes - banished from dwarven society.

ps. the fact that in Undermountain there was a specific situation created, does not mean that similar situations or very rare hermit like dwarven wizards could not have existed elsewhere. Just because no one wrote about them doesn't mean they could not have existed... who knows what is still hidden in Ed's notes...

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Originally posted by Mumadar Ibn Huzal

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
<snipped>We also have the dwarven myth from the WotC site that says the dwarves were specifically Denied the ability to even see the Nether Scrolls, and that this was done by the dwarven gods.

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Which is exactly what I'm trying to use with my idea regarding Diirinka. After the mad god's betrayal, not only was it frowned upon by other dwarves (due to the link with a banished deity), also the other faiths (with maybe exception those of Laduguer and Dumathoin) made it dogmatic and therefore arcane magic was - for all means and purposes - banished from dwarven society.

ps. the fact that in Undermountain there was a specific situation created, does not mean that similar situations or very rare hermit like dwarven wizards could not have existed elsewhere. Just because no one wrote about them doesn't mean they could not have existed... who knows what is still hidden in Ed's notes...

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Originally posted by Kentinal

Erik, *blink* Elistraee is not Menzoberranzan, underdark vs. surface. Oh I concede a source book would at least mention the new elves so under an NDA or more. I of course infer that one answer was directed to all of us that asked about how brown elves currently exist of Eilistraee.

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Originally posted by Markustay

What is true for an 'entire race' doesn't necessarily hold true for an individual. I'm no bio-chemist (heavens forbid! ), but I know enough to know there are ALWAYS aberrations amongst species. Some rare folks are naturally immune to diseases, or poisons, others can lift weight well beyond the human norm, others can run faster, etc... in fact, there is an entire History Channel show about this (Superhumans).

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Originally posted by Zireael

Erik, did you miss my post about Ched Nasad?

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Originally posted by Markustay

One must assume that on some worlds, dwarven mages were accepted, while on others they were put to death. The full gamut of emotional responses could likely be found throughout the universe. The situation we had on Toril was less severe, which the above selection clearly illustrates. Most Dwarven Wizards would have kept to themselves, or been advisors/sages within human (Silverymoon?), Elven (Myth Drannor?) , and other race's settlements. I would hazard-to-guess a good many shaved their beards and hid amongst the Gnomes.

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Originally posted by Markustay

The (core) rules can only simulate so much, and given the incredible diversity of life itself, not every 'anomaly' can be accounted for (and shouldn't - its just a game).

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Originally posted by Markustay

Why were the Dwarves of Tethyamar not able to see the Nether Scrolls? First off - its just a 'legend'. Second, thats not even what it says - it says the Dwarven King, his HighPriest, and possibly his immediate retinue looked but did not see what was written upon them. That does not mean they are always invisible to every single dwarf. It could be that 'The Gods' denied them, at that moment, from seeing that which they were not meant to see, or it could have even been a clever ruse of the old high priest himself (following the tents of his faith, regarding such things).

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Originally posted by Markustay

So what we have there is not so much as a 'fact', but rather a story about how a High priest of the dwarven pantheon told other Dwarves that 'magic isn't for them'. That invalidates NOTHING in regards to the possible existence of pre-ToT dwarven mages - it only indicates their god's 'displeasure' with such things.

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Originally posted by Markustay

Add in the fact that dwarves had a natural magical resistance (I have theories about that as well), and you can see that it wasn't only a cultural thing, which is harder to overcome for dwarves then nearly any other race, but also there was a purely physical factor making it harder for them to practice magic. Their own resistance would block spellcasting 20%* of the time.

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Originally posted by Markustay

I also had a Dwarf-mage, legal within RAW, in 2e. I was so proud of that, that I was actually upset that 3e nuked my uniqueness.

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Originally posted by Markustay

EDIT: And of course I know this is a retcon, but its one easily explainable given the normal xenophobic nature of dwarven culture. I do not mind retcons - I mind retcons with no explanations. In this case, the 'it was always this way' explanation actually works (as it does for Sorcerers, IMO). Most lore doesn't fix that easily; I think its more of a matter of rules-retcons vs setting-retcons.

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Originally posted by Markustay

NDA = No Drow Allowed

And Drizzt's unusual status as a Drow Ranger of Mielikki makes his own abilities unique, just as he himself is.

I always 'hand-waved it' that he traded his normal Ranger spell-like powers for the ability to continue to use his drow abilities on the surface. Ergo, they weren't the 'real' drow abilities at all - they were spell-powers that were granted to him as a (unique) Ranger, mimicking the racial drow abilities.

Two problems solved with one stone: Why doesn't he get Ranger spells? He does. Why is he able to do 'Drow stuff' on the surface? He doesn't. His spells mimic those powers.

When a wizard (or priest) casts levitate or creates a globe of darkness, that doesn't make them Drow either. The solution is simple - it should have never even been considered a problem.

The answers to all the snafus are there, we just have to find them.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Markustay

One must assume that on some worlds, dwarven mages were accepted, while on others they were put to death. The full gamut of emotional responses could likely be found throughout the universe. The situation we had on Toril was less severe, which the above selection clearly illustrates. Most Dwarven Wizards would have kept to themselves, or been advisors/sages within human (Silverymoon?), Elven (Myth Drannor?) , and other race's settlements. I would hazard-to-guess a good many shaved their beards and hid amongst the Gnomes.

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We don't have to assume that, since by the core rules of 2E, dwarves could not be wizards.

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Originally posted by Markustay

The (core) rules can only simulate so much, and given the incredible diversity of life itself, not every 'anomaly' can be accounted for (and shouldn't - its just a game).

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Agreed. And I have no problem with anomolies. But anomalies are by definition exceptions from the norm -- and the norm was that dwarves could not use arcane magic.

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Originally posted by Markustay

Why were the Dwarves of Tethyamar not able to see the Nether Scrolls? First off - its just a 'legend'. Second, thats not even what it says - it says the Dwarven King, his HighPriest, and possibly his immediate retinue looked but did not see what was written upon them. That does not mean they are always invisible to every single dwarf. It could be that 'The Gods' denied them, at that moment, from seeing that which they were not meant to see, or it could have even been a clever ruse of the old high priest himself (following the tents of his faith, regarding such things).

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That is not what it says.

The King stood up from his throne and there was quick silence and he spoke, "What nonsense is this? You're juggling thin air here before me and my kin. Come now, show us the scrolls that shake the foundation of the world - enough of this posturing."

That's a pretty clear statement that they could not even see the Scrolls. So is Thus it is said the dwarves were never meant to see the scrolls.

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Originally posted by Markustay

So what we have there is not so much as a 'fact', but rather a story about how a High priest of the dwarven pantheon told other Dwarves that 'magic isn't for them'. That invalidates NOTHING in regards to the possible existence of pre-ToT dwarven mages - it only indicates their god's 'displeasure' with such things.

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It offers up an explanation for why dwarves could not use arcane magic directly. It may be a myth or a legend, but unlike the real world, in the Realms the gods do take direct and verifiable action. What could be a myth in the real world could very well be fact in the Realms or any other fantasy setting.

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Originally posted by Markustay

Add in the fact that dwarves had a natural magical resistance (I have theories about that as well), and you can see that it wasn't only a cultural thing, which is harder to overcome for dwarves then nearly any other race, but also there was a purely physical factor making it harder for them to practice magic. Their own resistance would block spellcasting 20%* of the time.

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I'm not convinced that this is the case. With magical items, the magic was already invested in the object -- it's not unreasonable to assume that direct manipulation of magic would be even harder.

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Originally posted by Markustay

I also had a Dwarf-mage, legal within RAW, in 2e. I was so proud of that, that I was actually upset that 3e nuked my uniqueness.

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I'd love to know how you pulled this off.

I'm also curious as to how it is you acknowledge that your character was unique, but then argue that he wasn't.

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Originally posted by Markustay

EDIT: And of course I know this is a retcon, but its one easily explainable given the normal xenophobic nature of dwarven culture. I do not mind retcons - I mind retcons with no explanations. In this case, the 'it was always this way' explanation actually works (as it does for Sorcerers, IMO). Most lore doesn't fix that easily; I think its more of a matter of rules-retcons vs setting-retcons.

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I disagree that the "always this way" explanation works in either case. It doesn't work for dwarves since we have prior rules that say otherwise (and that resistance to using magical items quietly disappeared). It doesn't work for sorcerers because we've got thousands of years of history with countless named spellflingers, and sorcerers were never once mentioned before. Other variant casters like incantatrices were mentioned, but not sorcerers.

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Originally posted by Kentinal

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Originally posted by Zireael

Erik, did you miss my post about Ched Nasad?

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Likely under same NDA I ran into. Drow.

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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

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Originally posted by Kentinal

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Originally posted by Zireael

Erik, did you miss my post about Ched Nasad?

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Likely under same NDA I ran into. Drow.

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More or less. Things are being done with the drow, and I don't want to say more than I already have.

Cheers

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Originally posted by Markustay

<CHOP>

EDIT: And of course I know this is a retcon, but its one easily explainable given the normal xenophobic nature of dwarven culture. I do not mind retcons - I mind retcons with no explanations. In this case, the 'it was always this way' explanation actually works (as it does for Sorcerers, IMO). Most lore doesn't fix that easily; I think its more of a matter of rules-retcons vs setting-retcons.
<snip>

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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

I think the Thunder Blessing is the best hope we have for reconciling the dwarf lore issue. Sure, there are stories of dwarven magic from before, legends, etc., but no one saw them, and the dwarves that ran around hitting things with axes seemed particularly resistant to using or suffering from arcane magic.

When the Thunder Blessing came, it increased the dwarf birth-rate to be more like that of humans. It is my supposition that an unintended consequence (and unnoticed for decades) of making dwarves "more like other mortal races" was that it opened up arcane magic to the dwarves born in that generation. We wouldn't have noticed dwarves working magic until the 3e era, because that's when the dwarves born of the Thunder Blessing would have come of age and discovered their talents.

Just because no one made this connection before doesn't mean we can't make it now.

Cheers

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Originally posted by Jorkens

To Erik

This is probably an idiotic one but:

What happened too the gnomish noses and the hins weight problem somewhere around 1370?

Problems absolutely caused more by rule-changes than lore products, but it would be fun to see your take on it.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by The Sage

In terms of the Earthmother/Chauntea merger/divide...

Earthmother was a completely separate deity from that of Chauntea, that is, until TSR cast a "mighty retcon" upon the six 'Moonshae' novels.

You have to take this into consideration, otherwise parts of the plot from the novels don't make as much sense without it -- mostly because Earthmother dies and Chauntea then assumes her position until Earthmother returns and forces Chauntea out from the druids that focused instead on Chauntea worship.

I'll note, also, that Brian James was never actually happy with that retcon, which is why he didn't acknowledge it in his "Moonshae" article [DRAGON #362]. In fact, he hinted pretty strongly that Earthmother may indeed be a fey goddess.

By not acknowledging the retcon, Brian seems to have re-established the singular Earthmother as a divine entity unto herself with regard to the Moonshaes.

I've speculated that perhaps this fey Earthmother is merely "a partial aspect of the Land" [the Moonshaes] with respect to Chauntea's overall placement as THE land overall.

The reference from the Ol' Gray Box being:- "Earthmother 'may or may not be an aspect of Chauntea' [Cyclopedia of the Realms, pg. 17], was expanded upon with Chauntea's entry in Faiths & Avatars, by suggesting that Earthmother was a more primitive aspect, a portion of Chauntea's essence, that was dedicated to directly overseeing the Moonshaes.

But with Brian's work in the aforementioned "Moonshae" article, as it stands now, Earthmother and Chauntea are largely separate entities once again.

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In my mind, the easiest solution is that the Earthmother was an aspect of Chauntea that became its own separate entity, but was later reabsorbed back into Chauntea.

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Of course, that does beg the question of why only one corner of the Realms gets that treatment... So maybe the Earthmother was used as an aspect to pull worship from a local deity who filled much the same position, and it was her merging with this local (maybe an interloper?) that made her independent from Chauntea in the first place.

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